End of year assessment of trap's ireland

[p2011]

Can we get this thread back on topic? The title of the thread is "End of year assessment of Trap's Ireland".

[SkStu]

Yes but there was a big issue/question raised by the OP about the role of the LOI in the future of the Irish international team. It only got derailed by, as Charlie put it so brilliantly, a silly comment by ArdeeBhoy about football.

[ArdeeBhoy]

As opposed to silly comments, by people who know feck all about football...

Yes, 'brilliant', beyond comparison.

[SkStu]

Says the guy who thinks crowd size equals quality. Good lhad yourself.

[Crosby87]

Stu is just going stir crazy with no NHL.

[p2011]

The last few comments (#53 & #54) are precisely why I asked that the thread get back on topic.
If you want to trade insults, then PM each other. Let's talk about Trap and where we're going.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except the thread is largely pointless in its inception...

It needed 5 posts and then to be locked.

[nigel-harps1954]

As opposed to silly comments, by people who know feck all about football...

Yes, 'brilliant', beyond comparison.

Glad you have seen the errors of your ways.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Actually, yours was one of them.
;)

[Crosby87]

Maybe we can get things back to normal by discussing Anne Hathaway.....Attractive or not? When she let go with her girly bits the other day it was like an accident on the highway....I couldnt look away yet I knew I should. (Shudders).

[Charlie Darwin]

It's no big secret that the 'other' SPL clubs don't do well in European competition, it would be a good season if a few draws were picked up, they just don't seem to bother about it so much (unless they get an English team). I don't think that it's a good slide rule to judge the standard of the 'other' SPL teams compared to the LOI clubs.
I don't know why you think they don't seem to bother. They have no hope of winning the domestic league so European football is about as glamorous as it gets, plus European qualification is easy money if you're good enough - fact is, Scottish clubs aren't.


The SPL football standard is higher than the LOI, not a lot higher but higher all the same. That's my opinion, based on watching both on TV.
One indicator, a recent Scottish national squad for a friendly had 7 players from 'other' SPL clubs, the u21 competitive squad had 9 of them.
Have a look at the players who were omitted from the squad for the last competitive game - if Ireland had that many players missing we'd also be calling on plenty of Airtricity League players: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_national_football_team#Recent_players

Even so, there's no disputing the money on offer in the SPL is far in excess of that offered in Ireland. That's why fairly average LOI players like Jon Daly and Eoin Doyle are making so much more money over there. The point is that the standard isn't any better, just like the standard wasn't any better when LOI teams were paying three and four times current rates.


If any LOI club had the same facilities as say Kilmarnock, re training, income, stadium, with players on a FT contract, I'd have little doubt they would improve all round.

The thread issue is about Trap and an assessment of how he has managed the player resources as it exists to him. I assume he has all the facilities he needs to manage the squad. The fact that those players are all abroad is a concern, but not Trap's concern.
I think Irish players would be much improved with superior facilities and full-time contracts, which makes it all the more perplexing that Scotland is incapable of producing better players than Ireland.


That's a fair post and makes more sense than those by others, besides myself, that preceded it.
Because of far higher investment, grounds and facilities in Ireland have a long way to go compared to a good number of other European countries with similar size populations or even similar levels of club football.
Agreed 100%. Scotland is miles ahead of Ireland in terms of infrastructure.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The point is that the standard isn't any better, just like the standard wasn't any better when LOI teams were paying three and four times current rates.

Except that there are numerous foreign internationals who've played in the SPL in recent years and even now, a fact conspicuous by their absence generally in say Irish or Welsh domestic soccer.

[Charlie Darwin]

There have been plenty of foreign internationals in Ireland over the years. They invariably end up in leagues that offer more money but are no better. I'm sure the SPL is very proud of all its Lithuanian and Latvian internationals but that doesn't make it a great league.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, but not just from there.

Anyway, they go to these leagues, not just for money, but perceived status and success including the clubs and other players they come up against.

[Charlie Darwin]

What other countries? Yep, players definitely go for the prestige of coming up against players like Samaras and Scott Brown.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Why not? They're probably two of the few in the SPL who're good enough (just) on their day to get an EPL gig.

You really enjoy flogging a dead horse though...

[geysir]

Charlie, I took the liberty of snipping your post, mainly time.

I don't know why you think they don't seem to bother. They have no hope of winning the domestic league so European football is about as glamorous as it gets, plus European qualification is easy money if you're good enough - fact is, Scottish clubs aren't.
How about, the flower of Scotland isn't blooming in the pre-season. They're not good in the middle of July, fact! :)A reflection of a league's quality isn't just about getting a few results in European competition in July and early August, however it's one factor you can look at.
If it was the only or even the main factor to look at, then we could say without doubt, that based on coefficient points earned from the last 2 season's 6 head to head games in the EL, the Icelandic league is moving slightly ahead of the LOI, but we know it's only about par.:)
I said my opinion on the spl league is based on watching the teams play football on tv and it's a better standard than the football played in the LOI games that I have seen on tv, all imo.
Send a question to Pat Fenlon and ask him his considered opinion about the SPL standard.



Have a look at the players who were omitted from the squad for the last competitive game - if Ireland had that many players missing we'd also be calling on plenty of Airtricity League players: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_national_football_team#Recent_players
Fair enough, but 9 players from the other spl teams being in the Scottish u21 competitive squad, is decent representation. The Scots u21 team is better than Ireland's. And in the senior competitive squad, there's a good sprinkling of players who play a few seasons with the other spl clubs, before they move South.


I think Irish players would be much improved with superior facilities and full-time contracts, which makes it all the more perplexing that Scotland is incapable of producing better players than Ireland. I don't know why that is, but I'm sure it has been the subject of much debate amongst Scottish football folk. Is there a formula, that once applied will produce an exact result, that exceptional footballer out from the herd, just like those great players from the past?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Geysir,
A lot of your latter point revolves around cyclical factors. As we all know the North, Scotland and Wales have all 'produced' world-class players like us, but whether we like it or not, they were mainly developed by English clubs, married to those individuals natural ability...

Unfortunately, there's no guarantee this will happen. It just seems to depend on random factors in the gene pool!

[AlaskaFox]

Rather than make a new thread, thought I'd put this in an old one. Compiled all the results (and many highlights) of Irish international fixtures from U15 up to senior level for 2012:
http://greenscene.me/2013/01/republic-of-ireland-2012-results/

[ifk101]

Even so, there's no disputing the money on offer in the SPL is far in excess of that offered in Ireland. That's why fairly average LOI players like Jon Daly and Eoin Doyle are making so much more money over there.

Jon Daly never played in the LOI.

[Charlie Darwin]

Jon Daly never played in the LOI.
You're right, I mean Sean Dillon.

[Bungle]

I agree that Scotland should produce more players than they do. I had a good conversation with a Scottish mate who reckoned that the decline in them producing great players was when the teachers up there stopped staying after school hours to coach the kids and that this had a massive impact on the fitness levels of Scottish kids. He also made the point that up there alot less people volunteer than they did say 20 odd years ago. He said that this alligned to places like Glasgow no longer being safe for street football has devestated Scottish football.

It is rare to see street football over here as well, but from having lived in England,there is a much higher proportion of people who volunteer and help out in clubs. In a strange way, I think that the inadequacies of those who run football in this country down the years have brought what Eamo would cal lus "football people" closer together, than maybe places like Scotland.

[geysir]

You're right, I mean Sean Dillon.

He played for Shelbourne in the season they last won the league, before he made the move to Scotland.
A BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/d/dundee_utd/6231073.stm) article on the move included this quote from Sean,
"I see this as a big step up from playing in the League of Ireland, both on and off the park,"
:D

[Charlie Darwin]

Off the park, certainly. Even "full time" Shels had inferior facilities to your average GAA club.

[peadar1987]

I agree that Scotland should produce more players than they do. I had a good conversation with a Scottish mate who reckoned that the decline in them producing great players was when the teachers up there stopped staying after school hours to coach the kids and that this had a massive impact on the fitness levels of Scottish kids. He also made the point that up there alot less people volunteer than they did say 20 odd years ago. He said that this alligned to places like Glasgow no longer being safe for street football has devestated Scottish football.

It is rare to see street football over here as well, but from having lived in England,there is a much higher proportion of people who volunteer and help out in clubs. In a strange way, I think that the inadequacies of those who run football in this country down the years have brought what Eamo would cal lus "football people" closer together, than maybe places like Scotland.


I live in Maryhill in the north of the city, and my normal running route takes me past two sets of football pitches. I'd say they're being used maybe 5% of the time tops. I think a lot of it is due to the fact that neds nowadays "cannae be bothered", whereas maybe a few years ago they'd not be bothered about a lot of things, but still kick around a football with their mates. Perhaps Scottish football has been hit harder than other places by the fact that cool kids now play FIFA instead of fitba

[Charlie Darwin]

Perhaps Scottish football has been hit harder than other places by the fact that cool kids now play FIFA instead of fitba
Somewhere in England, John Giles' ears just pr icked up.

[Crosby87]

Yeah there is an article out today saying TV and Video games are giving kids cancer.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology-science/science/cancer-and-obesity-risk-warning-of-sitting-1523980

[BonnieShels]

He played for Shelbourne in the season they last won the league, before he made the move to Scotland.
A BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/d/dundee_utd/6231073.stm) article on the move included this quote from Sean,
"I see this as a big step up from playing in the League of Ireland, both on and off the park,"
:D


And to think... His Nanny lived on the same street as me and we would often play ball together. To think we were once at the same level. Sigh.

[peadar1987]

Somewhere in England, John Giles' ears just pr icked up.

There is some good higher education over here as well. Football has no chance!

[geysir]

And not to mention the growth in use of personal stereos by kids, like the walkman.

[Bungle]

I live in Maryhill in the north of the city, and my normal running route takes me past two sets of football pitches. I'd say they're being used maybe 5% of the time tops. I think a lot of it is due to the fact that neds nowadays "cannae be bothered", whereas maybe a few years ago they'd not be bothered about a lot of things, but still kick around a football with their mates. Perhaps Scottish football has been hit harder than other places by the fact that cool kids now play FIFA instead of fitba

Over Christmas ended up seeing a bit of that programme Football's Next Star and a group of Irish lads went over there with a view to winning an apprenticeship with Celtic. Obviously, the lads that went over have to be handy enough and might have been the kind of lads that would be close enough to underage squads or getting trials, but the thing that really struck me was that within a short space of time, they were able to compete with Scottish players of their age who would have been getting far better coaching for a number of years. It struck me as a poor indictement of the Scottish game.

[Crosby87]

I dont understand sometimes the idea that Scottish kids get far better coaching. When was the last time Scotland qualified for anything if they get better coaching?

[peadar1987]

I dont understand sometimes the idea that Scottish kids get far better coaching. When was the last time Scotland qualified for anything if they get better coaching?

That's sort of the point of the discussion. Scottish clubs should in theory have far better coaching structures in place because they have more money to spend on better facilities and coaches. The facilities are objectively far better than what we have in Ireland. The ability of the coaches is more subjective, but they can pay more, so in theory should attract better staff. Scottish rugby is also in a poor state at the moment, decent seasons recently from Edinburgh and Glasgow notwithstanding. Trying to work out the reasons behind it is an interesting discussion. It could just be a cyclical thing, it could be a cultural issue with Scotland (you don't have the highest incidences of obesity and heart disease in Europe for nothing), or it could be something else.

[Stuttgart88]

I was in Dundee before Christmas. The thought crossed my mind, htf did a club (and only representing around half of the ctachment area) from that place get to a European cup semi-final in living memory?

[tetsujin1979]

didn't both clubs from Dundee reach a European semi final?
I think Milan, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Manchester, Liverpool and Madrid are the only cities that can claim that

[Bungle]

There are some excellent coaches up and down the country. Clubs like Crumlin and St Kevin's are excellent schoolboy clubs. However, the young guys at Celtic and Rangers should in theory be getting training from top class coaches that is better than that of our best clubs. They have the money and the facilities that befits their standing as two globally massive clubs. Even Hearts, Hibs and Dundee United would have terrific facilities.

Maybe part of the problem is that there is an element of young guys at those clubs thinking that they are marvellous, while our lads have that hunger to be noticed by either LOI clubs or get their dream move to a Liverpool, Celtic or United.

As Stutts stated there, clubs like Dundee had a great ability to produce players. Bar our own James McCarthy, I can't think of any player from Scotland that has been or shown the potential to come even remotely close to being world class in the last 15 years.

[geysir]

As Stutts stated there, clubs like Dundee had a great ability to produce players. Bar our own James McCarthy, I can't think of any player from Scotland that has been or shown the potential to come even remotely close to being world class in the last 15 years.

World Class may be a bar too high to judge the standard by:)
Apart from Zlatan, Sweden haven't got that much quality either. At least their players (who are on the national squad) have spent some seasons with their local clubs in the local league and have commanded high transfer fees when they did move away from Sweden. Their clubs made anything from anything from €500k upwards to €3m on the transfers.

[Charlie Darwin]

Surely Scottish sides have made up to £10 million a pop from transfers, on players who could in no way be considered verging on world class.

[Crosby87]

This is a really interesting discussion. I wonder if for example Northern Ireland, Wales, or Scotland will go to the WC or Euros in say the next 20 years time? Will any of the 3 go one time? Or is it as unlikely as say, Luxembourg? I guess the world has changed in that Israel probably have a much better chance than Scotland do. Assuming Israel is around in 20 years, natch.

[peadar1987]

I think at the monent, you don't get a world class player for less than €20M, anyone else is just good.

[Charlie Darwin]

Does that mean Andy Carroll is almost double world class?

[SkStu]

didn't both clubs from Dundee reach a European semi final?
I think Milan, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Manchester, Liverpool and Madrid are the only cities that can claim that

London too?

[nigel-harps1954]

didn't both clubs from Dundee reach a European semi final?
I think Milan, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Manchester, Liverpool and Madrid are the only cities that can claim that

Belgrade?

[geysir]

Surely Scottish sides have made up to £10 million a pop from transfers, on players who could in no way be considered verging on world class.
Craig Gordon was verging on world class, for a month or so.

[Spudulika]

Money and facilities means nothing if the structure isn't right, England is going the same way with less quality players coming through the academies and clubs bringing in young children from well outside the catchment area because they show promise (eg outside the catchment meaning Spanish kids coming to Chelsea). A good coach, good development plan and opportunities to progress to senior football are important, though the latter is available in Scotland. What is hitting Scotland and Ireland (to a similar extent) and Wales and the North is that opportunities to play at the top level in Europe are getting slimmer as English clubs are not developing young players through (from outside England or in exceptional cases) and those same players are too blinkered too often to go look for football elsewhere. The English academy system is poor, seeing it first hand over the last decade really isn't something to get pumped about.

As for transfers, how much of the money goes to the club in debatable. What's written in the papers quite often isn't the amount which changes hands and certainly isn't the amount that ends up in the club kitty.

[ifk101]

didn't both clubs from Dundee reach a European semi final?
I think Milan, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Manchester, Liverpool and Madrid are the only cities that can claim that


London too?


Belgrade?

Bucharest and Budapest as well. :tongue:

[Serb]

I think at the monent, you don't get a world class player for less than €20M, anyone else is just good.

The price a player sells for is very subjective. Lots of factors affect how much money you can command — age, experience, reputation, injury record, goal scoring record, contract status (number of years remaining), club league status (recently relegated?), club financial status (danger of going into administration?), international eligibility (international African players miss a month of every second season) and probably a bunch of other factors that I can't think of.

The Andy Carroll example is a good one for example. He commanded a fee of £35 million, but that was a combination of the fact he was so young (21), had scored a reasonable amount of goals in the Premier League already that season (11) and he was recently capped by England. On paper, it looked like Liverpool were buying a 20+ goals a season international quality target man that could potentially be at the club for the next 10 years. He definitely wasn't world class by any stretch when they bought him, but they gambled on him becoming so.

As counter examples, players like Lukas Podolski and Dimitar Berbatov who cost £11 million and £5 million respectively could be regarded as world class (both proven goal scorers at the top level, well decorated and extensively capped, with 40+ goals, by their countries) but have commanded lower fees due to age (Berbatov) and the fact that the club needed to offload a big wage due to relegation (Podolski).

I don't think you can say world class players cost a minimum of £x, because there are just far too many variables to consider.

[Bungle]

World Class may be a bar too high to judge the standard by:)
Apart from Zlatan, Sweden haven't got that much quality either. At least their players (who are on the national squad) have spent some seasons with their local clubs in the local league and have commanded high transfer fees when they did move away from Sweden. Their clubs made anything from anything from €500k upwards to €3m on the transfers.

I agree that world class is a very high barometer to judge. However, the Scots used to churn out world class players in the past. Every great English team of the past used to have 3-4 Scots on their team. Their team in 78 was on paper not far of the great Dutch team:)

[Bungle]

Spot on about the English academy system. In my opinion and from being in Poland it was shared by that of fans from around the continent, England were the 2nd worst football playing team there. England didn't get walloped like we did, because they have a huge population and are always liable to produce enough top players to compete and do well.

There are some excellent academies like Liverpool and United. However, their academys are stacked with Spaniards, Italians, eastern europeans etc, let alone Irish, Scpttish and Welsh. The Englsh are going to be producing less top players and they will feel it badly in the coming years. The next Paul Scholes to break through at United could be from Bosnia and the next Jamie Carragher to break through at Liverpool from Germany. Meanwhile, the Dortmund, Inter or Barca academies to name a few are predominantly made up of players from their own country.

[gastric]

Wan't sure where to put this, but this is a summary of all Irish results from U15 upwards and may help in the debate happening here.Thanks to Alaska and co, excellent work.


http://greenscene.me/2013/01/republic-of-ireland-2012-results/