Noe Baba

[Dodge]

Current captain of the Ireland u17 side and member of the u19 team too has just signed for Fulham from Castlebar Celtic apparently.

As highly rated a player to come out of Ireland in years

[Crosby87]

Any relation to Baba O'Riley?

[DeLorean]

Current captain of the Ireland u17 side and member of the u19 team too has just signed for Fulham from Castlebar Celtic apparently.

As highly rated a player to come out of Ireland in years

Fulham sign Noa Baba (http://www.ftbpro.com/posts/zack.weiss/73792/fulham-beat-off-competition-from-manchester-united-to-noa-baba-signing)

[paul_oshea]

His younger brother is supposed to be even better.

[DannyInvincible]

His younger brother is supposed to be even better.

Yeah Baba!

[DeLorean]

His younger brother is supposed to be even better.

Sure he must be a Baba? :o

[theworm2345]

Its Noe Baba...I thought we already had a thread on him in which I posted some of his schoolwork as a boy saying he wants to play for Ireland, but it was just a post in another thread.
http://foot.ie/threads/161142-Daniel-Crowley?p=1565007&viewfull=1#post1565007

[Carrigaline]

His younger brother is supposed to be even better.
I heard their dog has even won Crufts.

[Irwin3]

Serious question on this lad's eligibility. Unless I'm missing something he was born in Cameroon to Cameroon parents (haven't heard otherwise?). Even if his parents fulfilled the naturalisation requirements and became naturalised citizens, I'm not sure how/if children can become naturalised citizens? Anyway, let's assume that his parents were naturalised and they passed this onto Noe.

With this in mind, I don't see how he fulfills the FIFA eligibilty statutes as they are written.
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/01/66/54/21/fifastatutes2012e.pdf
7 Acquisition of a new nationality
Any Player who refers to art. 5 par. 1 to assume a new nationality and who has not played international football in accordance with art. 5 par. 2 shall be
eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfi ls one of the following conditions:

a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
d) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

According to d) you need 5 years residence after the age of 18.:confused2:

[Olé Olé]

Serious question on this lad's eligibility. Unless I'm missing something he was born in Cameroon to Cameroon parents (haven't heard otherwise?). Even if his parents fulfilled the naturalisation requirements and became naturalised citizens, I'm not sure how/if children can become naturalised citizens? Anyway, let's assume that his parents were naturalised and they passed this onto Noe.

With this in mind, I don't see how he fulfills the FIFA eligibilty statutes as they are written.
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/01/66/54/21/fifastatutes2012e.pdf
7 Acquisition of a new nationality
Any Player who refers to art. 5 par. 1 to assume a new nationality and who has not played international football in accordance with art. 5 par. 2 shall be
eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfi ls one of the following conditions:

a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
d) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

According to d) you need 5 years residence after the age of 18.:confused2:

Are you sure these aren't just the prescribed rules in relation to players who are changing their international allegiance i.e. if Baba, theoretically, had played for Cameroon prior to moving to Ireland? These regulations would have been relied upon by, for instance, Shane Duffy.

The fact that Noe Baba satisfies relevant Irish citizenship laws would be sufficient. And, on the basis of the article above quoted from his primary school days, he has been in Ireland since he was 11, at the latest. Hence, he has been ordinarily resident here for a minimum of 5 years.

[WexCar]

Serious question on this lad's eligibility. Unless I'm missing something he was born in Cameroon to Cameroon parents (haven't heard otherwise?). Even if his parents fulfilled the naturalisation requirements and became naturalised citizens, I'm not sure how/if children can become naturalised citizens? Anyway, let's assume that his parents were naturalised and they passed this onto Noe.

With this in mind, I don't see how he fulfills the FIFA eligibilty statutes as they are written.
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/01/66/54/21/fifastatutes2012e.pdf
7 Acquisition of a new nationality
Any Player who refers to art. 5 par. 1 to assume a new nationality and who has not played international football in accordance with art. 5 par. 2 shall be
eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfi ls one of the following conditions:

a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
d) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

According to d) you need 5 years residence after the age of 18.:confused2:

To the best of my knowledge if his parents get naturalised then he will be able to apply for naturalisation/citizenship when he reaches the age of 18 & show to have residency permission for the 365 days immediately prior to the date of application plus 1,460 days in the 8 years prior to that period.

[Irwin3]

Are you sure these aren't just the prescribed rules in relation to players who are changing their international allegiance i.e. if Baba, theoretically, had played for Cameroon prior to moving to Ireland? These regulations would have been relied upon by, for instance, Shane Duffy.

The fact that Noe Baba satisfies relevant Irish citizenship laws would be sufficient. And, on the basis of the article above quoted from his primary school days, he has been in Ireland since he was 11, at the latest. Hence, he has been ordinarily resident here for a minimum of 5 years.


As far as I understand it these rules are for anyone who acquires a new nationality. As in anyone assuming a new nationality regardless if they have or have not previously played international football.

Shane Duffy has got nothing to do with this since he is an automatic Irish citizen since birth.

[Irwin3]

To the best of my knowledge if his parents get naturalised then he will be able to apply for naturalisation/citizenship when he reaches the age of 18 & show to have residency permission for the 365 days immediately prior to the date of application plus 1,460 days in the 8 years prior to that period.

That's what I thought (the over 18 thing), although it says exceptions can be made.

Now that he's joined Fulham he won't fulfill any residency requirement going forward if he hasn't already been naturalised.

[liamoo11]

He would not have been able to play qualifiers for the under 17s and 19s if he was not FIFA eligible. Its the reason certain lads play under 15 or 16 for us like james wallace formerly everton and then turn out to be ineligible

[CraftyToePoke]

He would not have been able to play qualifiers for the under 17s and 19s if he was not FIFA eligible. Its the reason certain lads play under 15 or 16 for us like james wallace formerly everton and then turn out to be ineligible

So was James Milner eligible for us or not? He did play u15 with Ireland, I think. (could be wrong, could be all in my head)

[Irwin3]

He would not have been able to play qualifiers for the under 17s and 19s if he was not FIFA eligible. Its the reason certain lads play under 15 or 16 for us like james wallace formerly everton and then turn out to be ineligible

If FIFA have given him the approval (not sure if it will have been scrutinised for a UEFA underage competition) then I'm guessing it's because he has a passport and he has met the 5 year residence requirement even though he is under 18. I'm guessing the over 18 thing in the statutes is to stop child trafficking.

[SkStu]

If he moves to Liverpool... Noe Baba and the Forty Thieves :) :o

[Irwin3]

This is an appeal to DannyInvincible to put on his eligibility hat and to tell me how Noe qualifies for us.

[The Fly]

This is an appeal to DannyInvincible to put on his eligibility hat and to tell me how Noe qualifies for us.

If his parents are naturalised citizens, which they presumably are, then it is likely they applied for Irish citizenship on their son's behalf.

In this case, that of a naturalised parent applying on behalf of a minor child, the Minister for Justice and Equality has the power to waive one or more of the conditions for naturalisation. It's safe to assume therefore that Noe is already an Irish citizen, and qualifies by virtue of his citizenship.

[DannyInvincible]

To be honest, his eligibility to play for us is something of which I'm not entirely sure myself, similar to Wilfried Zaha's eligibility to play for England. We had this discussion before in the eligibility thread in relation to other players in a similar situation, such as Victor Moses and the like, and I think we concluded that that regulation only applies to players who acquire a new nationality after the age of 18. Why it should be interpreted that way, I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure I recall Charlie Darwin and geysir providing some sort of reasoning. Possibly, they were just basing their interpretation on FIFA's evident practice rather than on the literal wording of the text. Perhaps they can come to the rescue again?

What is odd about it is that if you look at the wording of regulation 5, Baba doesn't appear to satisfy this one either:


"Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of that country."

His Irish nationality was obviously dependent on residence, so I'm not sure which regulation exactly he satisfies in order to play for us because the regulations don't explicitly mention anything about the age of 18 other than in relation to a player having lived in a particular country for five years beyond that age.

Shane Duffy has been an Irish national since birth, by the way, so could not have been deemed to be acquiring a new nationality.

[geysir]

He wasn't a player as such when he acquired a new nationality, i.e. assuming he had already Irish nationality when he played for the u17's.
He acquired the Irish nationality before he became a player, while he was a minor.
That's how I read it.
The last line of Article 7 gives the biggest clue to that
'He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.'

For example if a kid settles in Ireland at the age of 12 and acquires Irish nationality by the age of 15, he does not have to satisfy the requirements of article 7.

[DannyInvincible]

He wasn't a player as such when he acquired a new nationality, i.e. assuming he had already Irish nationality when he played for the u17's.
He acquired the Irish nationality before he became a player, while he was a minor.
That's how I read it.
The last line of Article 8 gives the biggest clue to that
'He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.'

For example if a kid settles in Ireland at the age of 12 and acquires Irish nationality by the age of 15, he does not have to satisfy the requirements of article 8.

But don't the eligibility rules apply to under-age sides as well?

[geysir]

Being naturalized before you become a player/ or when a minor, is complying with the eligibility rules.
Afair, there are quite a few Swiss players, senior or/and u21's who were naturalized Swiss citizens while they were minors. There was no such thing as requiring the player to be resident in Switzerland for 5 years after he reached the age of 18, before he could play for Switzerland.

You have to consider why article 7 exists. Primarily to deal with players acquiring a new nationality who have not established sufficient links to the new country.
That does not apply to children of families who move to another country

[Charlie Darwin]

Geysir is correct. I think we talked about this during the last World Cup, I think concerning Gelsen Fernandes or Johan Djourou who moved to Switzerland as a child and represented their sides despite having no family connection to the country. The rules specifically concern people who change nationalities after either a) turning 18 or b) representing another national team. A child who is granted citizenship is not required to meet residency criteria.

[The Fly]

Indeed. As I posted earlier -


If his parents are naturalised citizens, which they presumably are, then it is likely they applied for Irish citizenship on their son's behalf.

In this case, that of a naturalised parent applying on behalf of a minor child, the Minister for Justice and Equality has the power to waive one or more of the conditions for naturalisation. It's safe to assume therefore that Noe is already an Irish citizen, and qualifies by virtue of his citizenship.

[DannyInvincible]

Geysir is correct. I think we talked about this during the last World Cup, I think concerning Gelsen Fernandes or Johan Djourou who moved to Switzerland as a child and represented their sides despite having no family connection to the country. The rules specifically concern people who change nationalities after either a) turning 18 or b) representing another national team. A child who is granted citizenship is not required to meet residency criteria.

Is that expressly legislated for in the statues though or just assumed?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fair enough, but would be interested if Cameroon put in a 'claim' on him, assuming they're 'entitled'.
Or any player born in another country for that matter.

Not comfortable with any country exploiting 'residency' rules generally, as reckon we'd lose more than we gain?

[Charlie Darwin]

Is that expressly legislated for in the statues though or just assumed?
It's not explicitly stated but the "over the age of 18" caveat implies it. Otherwise, no naturalised child would be able to represent their national team until the age of 23, which is patently ridiculous. The FIFA statutes rely heavily on common sense being implied - if they were proper legal documents they'd take about 4 years to read.


Fair enough, but would be interested if Cameroon put in a 'claim' on him, assuming they're 'entitled'.
Or any player born in another country for that matter.

Not comfortable with any country exploiting 'residency' rules generally, as reckon we'd lose more than we gain?
How so?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well, 'second-generation' players would be vulnerable, or those born in the stare, whose parents leave the country for whatever reason.

[Charlie Darwin]

But if we're vulnerable, surely there'd be examples where we have lost out? I'd say African countries, such as Cameroon, would be the most vulnerable. Even Jamaica are looking to lose out on Raheem Sterling, and Canada have lost out on Hargreaves in recent times, while Junior Hoilett and Jonathan de Guzman have courted other countries for years.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well only because, mainly England, haven't bothered to pursue them in the main, or seek to enforce that rule if that's possible?

Maybe Scotland would have tried harder to tie down McGeady or McCarthy this way?

[Charlie Darwin]

McGeady and McCarthy don't have anything to do with residency, surely? I'd suspect Irish immigrants in England have a much stronger sense of national identity than African immigrants whose countries may not be that united to begin with.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Agreed, but this is all mainly hypothetical, based on regulations that are slow on being taken up. Thankfully, for now.

[theworm2345]

I'm sorry, do we not have a 221 page thread on Eligibility Rules?

[DannyInvincible]

I don't see why we'd necessarily be vulnerable to the residency regulations. In cricket perhaps, but I can't think of any Ireland-born football player whose family has moved abroad, they've all become naturalised citizens of their new home country, and the player has gone on to represent their new home country. I'm no cricket expert, but there's a different social dynamic at work in football that to in cricket, I would think. I think Charlie's alluded to that.

[Irwin3]

So the concensus appears to be that it's a statute black hole where minors who acquire a new nationality are given some kind of leeway. Seems strange to me as what's to stop the likes of Qatar targeting under 18 prospects and giving them passports?

Are we sure that his parents are naturalised citizens in the first place? Not sure when Noe or his family arrived in Ireland. Doesn't the whole process require at least 5 years continuous legal residency plus a year or two on top of that to process? Then once they received it, the processing would presumably start for the child?

[Irwin3]

Also, I don't think FIFA or UEFA check every players' eligibility (bar looking at passports maybe) unless there is a protest or if it is a player who has already represented one association and wishes to now change to another association. 'It is up to the national associations to make sure that players are eligible for their teams...'

[Dodge]

Also, I don't think FIFA or UEFA check every players' eligibility (bar looking at passports maybe) unless there is a protest or if it is a player who has already represented one association and wishes to now change to another association. 'It is up to the national associations to make sure that players are eligible for their teams...'

They do check. There was a case a couple of years ago of a Nigerian born lad who couldn't play for the u19s in a UEFA qualifier as his citizenship wasn't granted (in time).

I'm a bt uneasy about the discussion on his citizenship when nobody knows the facts. Perhaps its due to Asylum/Family Reunification. There's a fair chance too that Baba was never a citizen of Cameroon and therefore wouldn't be 'changing' nationality. There's lots and lots of ways in which he may have become an Irish citizen.

What we do know is that he's lived here for a number of eyars and so far has been happy to call himself Irish and play for his country. And just like Gibson, Kearns and anyone else who may be eligible for more than one countries, it should be completely down to the personal choice of the player

[geysir]

Indeed. As I posted earlier -

You only explained a scenario whereby the kid could have assumed a new nationality.
You didn't explain how this new nationality 'harmonised' with FIFA's eligibility criteria, nor did you offer any precedents.
Fly, you fell short, yet again :)

[geysir]

They do check. There was a case a couple of years ago of a Nigerian born lad who couldn't play for the u19s in a UEFA qualifier as his citizenship wasn't granted (in time).

I'm a bt uneasy about the discussion on his citizenship when nobody knows the facts. Perhaps its due to Asylum/Family Reunification. There's a fair chance too that Baba was never a citizen of Cameroon and therefore wouldn't be 'changing' nationality. There's lots and lots of ways in which he may have become an Irish citizen.

Since when do we need to know facts before such discussions :)

If he was a Cameroon citizen, as is very likely (jus soli or jus sanguis), he loses that when taking up a new nationality.
If events did transpire that such a player wanted to play for Cameroon, he would have to (re)apply for Cameroonian citizenship.

[Irwin3]

Fair enough, that could get into personal details. You're right in that we don't know his citizenship status (Cameroon or Irish) and that this is getting too much into speculation. But I'm more interested in if FIFA require a residency requirement for minors who acquire a new nationality or not. (5 years for over 18's)

Since naturalisation for minors is granted at the discretion of the minister for justice and equality, I'm guessing that FIFA allow it as a permanent residency (for minors) since there is no residency requirement, although that would go against why the residence rules were brought in (Qatar etc) and would leave it potentially open to exploitation by countries who grant passports to U'18 prospects.

Comparing naturalised citizens to Irish citizens from birth is apples and oranges. Or else you might as well be comparing them to Robbie Keane and Richard Dunne who like our northern-born players are Irish citizens from the moment of their birth. There is a difference between permanent nationality and acquiring a new one as the FIFA statues make clear and all criteria need to be met.

Noe's case is a new one for Irish football. He is a trailblazer in many respects and I think it's fair to discuss the rules of qualification for the national team. I also see that one of the conditions on granting naturalisation is the intention to continue to live within the state. Noe, like all our top players has/is moved/moving abroad and will probably not live permanently in Ireland for at least 20 years if not longer, many players never return.

[Dodge]

Comparing naturalised citizens to Irish citizens from birth is apples and oranges. Or else you might as well be comparing them to Robbie Keane and Richard Dunne who like our northern-born players are Irish citizens from the moment of their birth

I used Gibson and Kearns because of the controversary/legal angle. I could have used any of the second or third generation players. If Baba or James McCarthy qualify for Irish citizenship, and are happy to play for their country. That's all that should matter

Baba playing in the u19 qualifiers shows that UEFA (and therefore FIFA) acknowledge he's eligible.

If he later decides to play for Cameroon. So be it.

I also believe you're overthinking the citizenship angle from the Department of Justice. Once someone gains Irish citizenship, they are no longer 'tracked' by any body in that department. SO if Baba leaves for the UK, they won't know/care enough to revoke it.

[Irwin3]

I don't think you're understanding why I see this as an interesting case. Noe is as far as I'm aware the first or at the least highest-profile player for Ireland to (presumably) be a naturalised citizen. The FIFA statues are unclear on players in this situation, although as pointed above players from other nations have apparently been in a similar situation and minors are assumed to be given leeway (or fulfill the 5 years residency before they turn 18 maybe?).

It's not about qualifying for Irish citizenship. There is a difference between permanent nationality and acquiring a new one.
-Born in Ireland (post 2005 parents have to meet certain requirements). Irish citizen from birth.
-Born abroad to an Irish citizen parent. Irish citizen from birth.
-Born abroad to an Irish grandparent. Have the automatic right to register in the foreign births register as an Irish citizen.

Hence Robbie Keane (born in Ireland), Darron Gibson (Born in Derry - eligible for NI as well), Kevin Foley (Born in England to Irish parents - eligible for England as well), James McCarthy (born in Scotland to an Irish grandfather - eligible for Scotland as well) all qualify on the same premise, ie their automatic right to be an Irish citizen.

I'm not overthinking it I'm just wondering how it can be exploited. I believe Noe has spent a good deal of his formative years (5+ years) in Ireland and wanting to play for Ireland which is fine, but since the citizenship to minors is discretionary, I'll put up an extreme case.

Parent(s) move to Ireland from country X and are naturalised. Child remains in country X until this time and then joins parents in Ireland aged 15 say. Parent(s) then petition for child to be granted naturalisation. Approved. Child then aged 16 moves to a football club in england. Should such a player be eligible for Ireland? This all comes back to the wording of the FIFA statutes. Over 18's who acquire a new nationality require 5 years residence in a new country, yet for minors this is not documented or possibly waived entirely. This is where I'd like more clarity.

[BonnieShels]

In this case there is no issue.

This child's eligibility for Irish citizenship is not based on residency therefore there is no issue for him in moving to Britain after the granting of Irish citizenship. It would be a different case if say he moved here at 15 and his parents WERE NOT naturalised citizens.

[Crosby87]

Supposedly Roberto Martinez wants him to play for Scotland.

[Irwin3]

In this case there is no issue.

This child's eligibility for Irish citizenship is not based on residency therefore there is no issue for him in moving to Britain after the granting of Irish citizenship. It would be a different case if say he moved here at 15 and his parents WERE NOT naturalised citizens.

I don't think you understand. The parent(s) have to fulfill the residency requirements and are then naturalised. They then apply for the child to be naturalised which is given at the discretion of the minister and in good faith that they intend to continue to reside in the state.

[Dodge]

I don't think you're understanding why I see this as an interesting case. Noe is as far as I'm aware the first or at the least highest-profile player for Ireland to (presumably) be a naturalised citizen.
He's not the first. The Nigerian born lad (who later played for Bray) was stopped playing for the u19s before his citizenship was one of the first (apologies for forgetting his name


It's not about qualifying for Irish citizenship. There is a difference between permanent nationality and acquiring a new one.
Not in terms of citizenship. I don't want to be facetius here but there numerous ways of acquirring citizenship and having the right to be an Irish citizen doesn't neccasirily make you own. Even within the sphere of non Irish born there are many, many ways (including the likes of FBR etc)


I believe Noe has spent a good deal of his formative years (5+ years) in Ireland and wanting to play for Ireland which is fine, but since the citizenship to minors is discretionary
Not true in all cirumstances (in the case of family re-uniifcation all family members treated the same)


Parent(s) move to Ireland from country X and are naturalised. Child remains in country X until this time and then joins parents in Ireland aged 15 say. Parent(s) then petition for child to be granted naturalisation. Approved. Child then aged 16 moves to a football club in england. Should such a player be eligible for Ireland?
In that example the child wouldn't be granted Irish citizenship. Remember that the parents would effectively be living in Ireland for 7 years before they are approved for citizenship. In this extreme case, the practice of what happens far outweighs the makey up scenario

Thats kinda my point about you over thinking it. It doesn't really matter if he 'should' be eligible, because the scenario simply wouldn't happen

[Irwin3]

Just a couple of points.

-When I'm mentioning 'permanent nationality' I'm referring to the language used in the FIFA statutes. This is why the criteria exist as they differentiate between those who have a permanent nationality and those who acquire a new one.

-How do you know it wouldn't happen? It's at the discretion of the minister. What is the age/residence of minor requirement? One isn't stated hence the use of the word discretion. The minister makes the decision, no?

And I repeat, this only comes up because the requirements for minors acquiring a new nationality aren't stated by FIFA.

[BonnieShels]

I don't think you understand. The parent(s) have to fulfill the residency requirements and are then naturalised. They then apply for the child to be naturalised which is given at the discretion of the minister and in good faith that they intend to continue to reside in the state.

I do understand perfectly. It is you who are confusing the eligibility statutes and Irish citizenship law.

The hypothetical scenario you discuss whilst unlikely is covered by the FIFA statutes.

Player X is not entitled to Irish Citizenhip by virtue of residency, he is entitled to it by virtue of having an Irish Citizen parent. In that case he doesn't fall foul of the FIFA statute and can play for Ireland.
That his parent is granted citizenship by virtue of residency is irrelevant.

[BonnieShels]

Just a couple of points.

-When I'm mentioning 'permanent nationality' I'm referring to the language used in the FIFA statutes. This is why the criteria exist as they differentiate between those who have a permanent nationality and those who acquire a new one.

-How do you know it wouldn't happen? It's at the discretion of the minister. What is the age/residence of minor requirement? One isn't stated hence the use of the word discretion. The minister makes the decision, no?

And I repeat, this only comes up because the requirements for minors acquiring a new nationality aren't stated by FIFA.

18 usually!

:rolleyes: