Noe Baba

[The Fly]

Player X is not entitled to Irish Citizenhip by virtue of residency, he is entitled to it by virtue of having an Irish Citizen parent. In that case he doesn't fall foul of the FIFA statute and can play for Ireland.
That his parent is granted citizenship by virtue of residency is irrelevant.

Exactly.



-How do you know it wouldn't happen? It's at the discretion of the minister. What is the age/residence of minor requirement? One isn't stated hence the use of the word discretion. The minister makes the decision, no?


The application for citizenship on behalf of a minor would be granted automatically, if the parent(s) making the application are already naturalised citizens.


You only explained a scenario whereby the kid could have assumed a new nationality.


I provided the logical explanation for his eligibility.



You didn't explain how this new nationality 'harmonised' with FIFA's eligibility criteria, nor did you offer any precedents.
Fly, you fell short, yet again :)

It's obvious how his nationality harmonises with FIFA's eligibility criteria, through Article 5 (1).

[Irwin3]

I do understand perfectly. It is you who are confusing the eligibility statutes and Irish citizenship law.

The hypothetical scenario you discuss whilst unlikely is covered by the FIFA statutes.

Player X is not entitled to Irish Citizenhip by virtue of residency, he is entitled to it by virtue of having an Irish Citizen parent. In that case he doesn't fall foul of the FIFA statute and can play for Ireland.
That his parent is granted citizenship by virtue of residency is irrelevant.

I don't think that is correct. I'm pretty sure that to claim citizenship through descent the parent has to be a citizen at the time of the child's birth. I'm pretty sure these are all naturalisation cases with the children of naturalised parent(s) being given citizenship at the discretion of the minister.

If I'm wrong then I will hold my hands up.

[Irwin3]

18 usually!

:rolleyes:

What are you on about? We are talking about minors being given citizenship. Noe Baba is 16 presumably with an Irish passport as apparently UEFA will 100% have verified it.

[BonnieShels]

I don't think that is correct. I'm pretty sure that to claim citizenship through descent the parent has to be a citizen at the time of the child's birth. I'm pretty sure these are all naturalisation cases with the children of naturalised parent(s) being given citizenship at the discretion of the minister.

If I'm wrong then I will hold my hands up.

They are at the discretion of the Minister and they are almost always granted (from my experience with my clients). It's a formality.

And again Player X's eligibility for Ireland is based on his citizenship which HE DID NOT acquire through residency which means he does not fall foul of the Statutes.

[BonnieShels]

What are you on about? We are talking about minors being given citizenship. Noe Baba is 16 presumably with an Irish passport as apparently UEFA will 100% have verified it.

Minors by virtue of being minors are usually under 18.

[Irwin3]

They are at the discretion of the Minister and they are almost always granted (from my experience with my clients). It's a formality.

And again Player X's eligibility for Ireland is based on his citizenship which HE DID NOT acquire through residency which means he does not fall foul of the Statutes.

The Qatar boys were given citizenship not based on residency, weren't they? Hence forcing FIFA to change the rules in the first place and adding the 5 year residency requirement for people acquiring a new nationality...

[Irwin3]

Minors by virtue of being minors are usually under 18.

Very clever. I meant was there a residency requirement as a minor, ie what would have been the last age they could have entered to meet any such requirement. Apparently there is none.

[DannyInvincible]

So the concensus appears to be that it's a statute black hole where minors who acquire a new nationality are given some kind of leeway. Seems strange to me as what's to stop the likes of Qatar targeting under 18 prospects and giving them passports?

Good point.


Are we sure that his parents are naturalised citizens in the first place? Not sure when Noe or his family arrived in Ireland. Doesn't the whole process require at least 5 years continuous legal residency plus a year or two on top of that to process? Then once they received it, the processing would presumably start for the child?

Have a feeling he's lived in Castlebar since he was a toddler, for some reason, but open to correction on that...


If he was a Cameroon citizen, as is very likely (jus soli or jus sanguis), he loses that when taking up a new nationality.
If events did transpire that such a player wanted to play for Cameroon, he would have to (re)apply for Cameroonian citizenship.

Indeed, you're correct. Assuming Baba is indeed an Irish citizen, he isn't a citizen of Cameroon at present, if ever he was, as Cameroon does not permit the possession of dual citizenship. Would the fact he possesses just Irish citizenship have any bearing on his eligibility? For example, article 8(2) states:


"If a Player who has been fielded by his Association in an international match in accordance with art. 5 par. 2 permanently loses the nationality of that country without his consent or against his will due to a decision by a government authority, he may request permission to play for another Association whose nationality he already has or has acquired."

That is in relation to players switching association, however.


He's not the first. The Nigerian born lad (who later played for Bray) was stopped playing for the u19s before his citizenship was one of the first (apologies for forgetting his name

Ismahil Akinade? Didn't Bray have another Nigerian-born player in their squad recently who I'm pretty sure also played for us at under-age level?


Player X is not entitled to Irish Citizenhip by virtue of residency, he is entitled to it by virtue of having an Irish Citizen parent. In that case he doesn't fall foul of the FIFA statute and can play for Ireland.
That his parent is granted citizenship by virtue of residency is irrelevant.

So, Baba is eligible to play for us but his father wouldn't be, assuming his father was granted Irish citizenship by virtue of residence, for the sake of argument?


It's obvious how his nationality harmonises with FIFA's eligibility criteria, through Article 15 (1).

That's now article 5(1). Fly, you fell short, yet again. :p


I'm pretty sure that to claim citizenship through descent the parent has to be a citizen at the time of the child's birth.

Pretty sure that's correct: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html


If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, then you are automatically an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth.

...

If your parent derived Irish citizenship in another manner, for example, through marriage, adoption or naturalisation, further information can be obtained from your nearest Irish embassy or consulate.

That implies Irish citizenship is not automatically inherited from parents who are naturalised Irish citizens; it is dependent on some other criteria, in other words. Residence possibly? Anyone got the number for the feckin' embassy in London?!

[tetsujin1979]

Ismahil Akinade? Didn't Bray have another Nigerian-born player in their squad recently who I'm pretty sure also played for us at under-age level?
Was that Emeka Onwubiko? Think he was at Bray for a while anyway, was supposed to be on trial at Man City at one point.
no idea what he's doing now.

[Charlie Darwin]

Have a feeling he's lived in Castlebar since he was a toddler, for some reason, but open to correction on that...
Since he was 10, but we don't know how long his parent/parents are here.

[Dodge]

Was that Emeka Onwubiko? Think he was at Bray for a while anyway, was supposed to be on trial at Man City at one point.
no idea what he's doing now.

Thats the guy. Thanks

Low level English football
http://www.clubwebsite.co.uk/withamtownhowbridgeswiftsfc/96855/Players/view/2232508

[geysir]

That's now article 5(1). Fly, you fell short, yet again. :p

Good spot, Danny,
I missed that one, don't give an inch to that charlatan :D

[BonnieShels]

So, Baba is eligible to play for us but his father wouldn't be, assuming his father was granted Irish citizenship by virtue of residence, for the sake of argument?

Assuming his father has not changed associations and complies with FIFA's residency statutes then there would be no impediment



Pretty sure that's correct: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

Player X is not acquiring his citizenship through descent. He is being naturalised by virtue of having an Irish citizen parent and at the discretion of the Minister.

[geysir]

So the concensus appears to be that it's a statute black hole where minors who acquire a new nationality are given some kind of leeway. Seems strange to me as what's to stop the likes of Qatar targeting under 18 prospects and giving them passports?

Then FIFA might have to legislate and I get the feeling that Danny is just itching to propose some legislation :)
Until that happens (Qatar - kidnapping minors) there is not a problem existing, therefore there is no statute black hole.

[swinfordfc]

Since he was 10, but we don't know how long his parent/parents are here.

They all move over at this time!

[The Fly]

That's now article 5(1). Fly, you fell short, yet again. :p


Old habits die hard.

[Olé Olé]

I'm sorry, do we not have a 221 page thread on Eligibility Rules?

This is a completely and utterly relevant discussion pertaining to the very foundations of named player's qualification to play for Ireland. What's the point in wading in with one of these type of comments? Ignore the discussion if it doesn't interest you, maybe.

[theworm2345]

This is a completely and utterly relevant discussion pertaining to the very foundations of named player's qualification to play for Ireland. What's the point in wading in with one of these type of comments? Ignore the discussion if it doesn't interest you, maybe.
Yes, and that whole thread is relevant to Gibson, Daniel Kearns, etc. as well but doesn't mean it should be in the player's thread. I don't read that thread as I really don't care, which is why I don't want this thread mucked up. Are discussions like this not exactly why that thread was created?

[tricky_colour]

He's no Baba, he's a grown man.

[johnnyc]

Yes, and that whole thread is relevant to Gibson, Daniel Kearns, etc. as well but doesn't mean it should be in the player's thread. I don't read that thread as I really don't care, which is why I don't want this thread mucked up.

It's the early days of the McClean thread all over again.

"Oh, lots of new posts! I wonder what exciting player related news I'm about to....oh."

[DannyInvincible]

It's the early days of the McClean thread all over again.

"Oh, lots of new posts! I wonder what exciting player related news I'm about to....oh."

I don't think there's any rule against the posting of exciting player-related news as well as having other player-related discussion in this thread. If there are any developments, I'm sure they'll feature.

[johnnyc]

The definition of what is/isn't player related is the issue. Anyone visiting this forum with a purely footballing agenda, who clicks on a player's thread and then finds pages of posts that don't even mention the player... they're not gonna hang around for long surely?

[DannyInvincible]

What's your definition? I don't see how the above discussion isn't related to Baba. There's very little "strictly football" news on the lad at the minute anyway, naturally.

People are free to come and go as they wish, and post as they wish within reason. The purpose of this forum is to discuss Irish football and related issues; not to entertain potential visitors. Discussion of Baba's eligibility certainly isn't preventing anyone from discussing other Baba-related issues, so feel free to go ahead and do it yourself rather than complaining about what other people are discussing in relation to the player.

[tricky_colour]

See Noe Baba jive here.


http://youtu.be/GoJXYgVnQIQ

[BonnieShels]

Yes, and that whole thread is relevant to Gibson, Daniel Kearns, etc. as well but doesn't mean it should be in the player's thread. I don't read that thread as I really don't care, which is why I don't want this thread mucked up. Are discussions like this not exactly why that thread was created?

Whilst the discussion was relevant the last couple of days as we established this scenario for those who queried it.
I doubt there'll be much more on it.

[johnnyc]

What's your definition? I don't see how the above discussion isn't related to Baba. There's very little "strictly football" news on the lad at the minute anyway, naturally.

People are free to come and go as they wish, and post as they wish within reason. The purpose of this forum is to discuss Irish football and related issues; not to entertain potential visitors. Discussion of Baba's eligibility certainly isn't preventing anyone from discussing other Baba-related issues, so feel free to go ahead and do it yourself rather than complaining about what other people are discussing in relation to the player.

I'd like to know the mods definition.

[geysir]

Going by past discussions in other threads, there's a tolerance to questions and discussions of a player's particular eligibility, but there is a limit.
Irwin brought up a very good question which was already answered to some satisfaction in the Eligibility thread (God knows where though), now it has been answered here with reference to Noe Baba.
I'd totally agree with 'settlement' and moving on.

[johnnyc]

Limited eligibility discussion sounds ideal to me.

[geysir]

Tricky, in his prime (in the bad old days), would have had 5 Noe Baba threads going, simultainously.

[johnnyc]

I was reminded of Baba last night when watching The Football League show on BBC. They did a bit on Zaha and the whole will he opt for England or Ivory Coast debate. The clip of that tool Mark Clement putting pressure on a seemingly humble and reserved character like Zaha to commit his future to England in front of a live audience was highly inappropriate and made for uncomfortable viewing.

[DannyInvincible]

I was reminded of Baba last night when watching The Football League show on BBC. They did a bit on Zaha and the whole will he opt for England or Ivory Coast debate. The clip of that tool Mark Clement putting pressure on a seemingly humble and reserved character like Zaha to commit his future to England in front of a live audience was highly inappropriate and made for uncomfortable viewing.

Isn't there a thread for this type of discussion? ;)

[johnnyc]

Isn't there a thread for this type of discussion? ;)

According to you, this one.

[Paddy Garcia]

I was reminded of Baba last night when watching The Football League show on BBC. They did a bit on Zaha and the whole will he opt for England or Ivory Coast debate. The clip of that tool Mark Clement putting pressure on a seemingly humble and reserved character like Zaha to commit his future to England in front of a live audience was highly inappropriate and made for uncomfortable viewing.

Exactly - we could do with a few interviewers like that.

[DannyInvincible]

According to you, this one.

I see you've relaxed your definition then... :)

[johnnyc]

I see you've relaxed your definition then... :)


No, but feel free to private message me any further insight you might have. We should really only post Baba related stuff in here from now on. Good lad.

[tetsujin1979]

Exactly - we could do with a few interviewers like that.
why? the last thing we need are questions that alienate players.

[AlaskaFox]

why? the last thing we need are questions that alienate players.

Think it may have been a reference to TOD's Trap out line of questioning. Maybe.

[Stuttgart88]

Not a bad club for Noe to be heading to for now but I worry abit about Fulham despite their good form this season. The EPL is likely to introduce Financial fair Play / financial break-even type rules soon. Fulham are one of the only clubs resisting, because they know that having to break-even financially would hit their performance hard and maybe even relegate them.

[Paddy Garcia]

why? the last thing we need are questions that alienate players.

Actually I was joking.

Even so a bit of passion from the management would not go amiss s it would:

a) show we care and
b) remind me of Jack getting McAteer up against the wall by his throat and securing his commitment to play for us.

[Crosby87]

His Wiki page is in danger of being deleted.

[tetsujin1979]

His Wiki page is in danger of being deleted.
that's the real tragedy here

[ArdeeBhoy]

Besides the debate on his relative eligibility, this thread is rubbish!

Seriously.

[DannyInvincible]

His Wiki page is in danger of being deleted.

He doesn't satisfy the site's notability criteria.

[liamoo11]

he didnt get a game for fulham under 18s testerday against the pool. One of the other centre halves that played is irish o Reilly. O halloren came on as a sub for fulham under 17 player for us wide man but played up top yesterday.

Dan cleary was sub for pool who is a right full or centre half but very tidy footballer and no sign of o hanlon. I know o hanlon has had a lot of expectation but when u look at the players he is up against to play wide for the pool under 18s you have Ibe who is maybe 6 months older played for wycombe first team as a 15 year old and cost pool at least 1million and ojo who is a year younger and cost 2 million from mk dons both of whom are physically miles ahead of o hanlon and are beasts of men for their age.

English academies spend so much money on buying players the pool had at least 5 players yesterday in there under 18s that they bought in from other clubs prob costing 3 or 4 million in total. Even fulham had 2 or 3 european players in there under 18s and a striker they bought from mk dons who was youngest player to score in fa cup when he played for the dons first team last year! Life is not easy in premier league academies

[Bungle]

he didnt get a game for fulham under 18s testerday against the pool. One of the other centre halves that played is irish o Reilly. O halloren came on as a sub for fulham under 17 player for us wide man but played up top yesterday.

Dan cleary was sub for pool who is a right full or centre half but very tidy footballer and no sign of o hanlon. I know o hanlon has had a lot of expectation but when u look at the players he is up against to play wide for the pool under 18s you have Ibe who is maybe 6 months older played for wycombe first team as a 15 year old and cost pool at least 1million and ojo who is a year younger and cost 2 million from mk dons both of whom are physically miles ahead of o hanlon and are beasts of men for their age.

English academies spend so much money on buying players the pool had at least 5 players yesterday in there under 18s that they bought in from other clubs prob costing 3 or 4 million in total. Even fulham had 2 or 3 european players in there under 18s and a striker they bought from mk dons who was youngest player to score in fa cup when he played for the dons first team last year! Life is not easy in premier league academies

Thanks for that liamoo11. I was looking for information on O'Hanlon and Cleary to see how they've been doing and came across the article below. As you say, the competition at top clubs is immense. Cleary seems to be doing well which is good to hear. I know there was a huge amount of talk of O'Hanlon and Jack Byrne of Man City which was apparently very justified from what I've heard of them talent wise, but it is a major burden for lads of that age to be spoken of so highly. In fairness, O'Hanlon would still be a u16 or u17 player, so maybe we shouldn't be too disappointed he isn't a regular for the Liverpool u18s.

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2012/10/guide-to-the-liverpool-under-18s-squad/

[swinfordfc]

He not moving over till January!

[Charlie Darwin]

I was going to say that. It's a bit harsh to be criticising him for not breaking into the U18s when he's not even eligible for two more months.

[SwanVsDalton]

I was going to say that. It's a bit harsh to be criticising him for not breaking into the U18s when he's not even eligible for two more months.

Still - why hasn't Trap gone to see him not play?

[tricky_colour]

He has produced some interesting artwork.
http://www.noebaba.com/works.html

[liamoo11]

I was going to say that. It's a bit harsh to be criticising him for not breaking into the U18s when he's not even eligible for two more months.

No critisism here good sir simply stating a fact that he did not play for fulham on saturday and a bit of a comment on those who did play. Best of luck when he does move