Celtic Premier League

[Stuttgart88]

True, not to mention UEFA's aversion to cross-border leagues such as the Atlantic League mooted several years ago (although Platini has hinted at seeing a Balkan wide league, a Dutch-Belgian league etc. in the past).

Say, 3 or 4 small countries "merge" their leagues. This will then tempt 3 or 4 larger countries to do the same, and so on.

Then the big city teams in the big 4 / 5 leagues will see that the door is open for a European superleague, which they control not UEFA. UEFA will then lose its Champions League product and lose its dominant influence in European football. Of course the EU and the European Court of justice (which adjudicates on matters relating to breaches of EU law - which includes competition law, which in turn affects how football's TV rights are sold etc.) would then have to get involved and in the past they have not looked favourably towards a Superleague.

I'm not sure that these issues aren't insurmountable, but it'd be dangerous ground for UEFA to tread.

[backstothewall]

I'm not sure of the legality of the situation, but can players' contracts be held by an academy? So young lads would go through the academy system, getting their education, from ages 12 to 18 or 21, the ones who don't get snapped up by foreign clubs take their talent to the domestic leagues, the ones who do will command a transfer fee, which will help fund the academy.

I mentioned this possibility in the other thread, but it might be worth repeating here. The answer could lie in borrowing a concept from the worlds best at manufactured hype. Some kind American style talent-draft could be done live on TV once people come to the end of the academy system, to decide which clubs players go to which clubs in the most dramatic manner possible. Either RTE or TV3 would be bound to show it. It would have to be better TV than repeats of reeling in the years. It's a rough idea with practical issues but it could have potential.

I'm a long way from being an expert on either Irish contract law or football regulations, but as far as I know rugby players are contracted centrally to the IRFU, even though they play for the provinces. And players in the MLS are similarly centrally contracted to the league and allocated to a club I think, so there shouldn't be to many problems with football regulations.

A contract signed by someone under 18 isn't worth the paper it's written on, so they would all have to be 18. But I would imagine it would be preferable not to have kids getting kicked up and down in the League of Ireland at 17 anyway (although I would imagine it probably happens).

There might be issues deciding who gets the first draft pick. That could best be solved by abolishing promotion and relegation, which would also ensure the clubs in the LOI were attracting the sort of crowds to make it sustainable *puts on tin hat*.

[Stuttgart88]

The idea of an academy owning player registrations kind of falls into the very murky world of 3rd party ownership which is legal and common in some countries but outlawed in England (post-Tevez). In its worst guises it's basically slave trading of LatAm kids and there are some serious crooks involved. There was a fund in UK called the Hero Global Football Fund advised by David Elleray, Alan Hansen and David Davies but I don't think it got off the ground.

An interesting concept is the Glenn Hoddle Academy in Spain. Some Irish have been through it. The idea being to put recently released 18 year-olds back into full time training and to profit by selling their best players. Somehow the GHA got club status (I think they bought a 3rd division outfit) so they can do this.

I think it can be done within the international rules on 3rd party ownership.

[Schumi]

as far as I know rugby players are contracted centrally to the IRFU, even though they play for the provinces.
Only international players are centrally contracted, and even then only some internationals. The rest are contracted to and paid by the provinces directly. There was a row over Like Fitzgerald's contract recently which (as far as I know) has ended up with him getting a contract from Leinster rather than Ireland. All the young players who come through are contracted to the province first and only if they make the international team and are considered important enough will they get a central IRFU contract later.

Drafting 18-year-olds to the other end of the country would require wages many multiples of what's currently available to new players in the league to make it anyway attractive. Who's going to move from Dublin to Derry for €80 a week? For this to be viable, the league would have to be much bigger and richer than it is now, which would mean that a draft system would probably be unnecessary to start with!


abolishing promotion and relegation, which would also ensure the clubs in the LOI were attracting the sort of crowds to make it sustainable *puts on tin hat*.How would no relegation ensure better crowds?

[backstothewall]

Only international players are centrally contracted, and even then only some internationals. The rest are contracted to and paid by the provinces directly. There was a row over Like Fitzgerald's contract recently which (as far as I know) has ended up with him getting a contract from Leinster rather than Ireland. All the young players who come through are contracted to the province first and only if they make the international team and are considered important enough will they get a central IRFU contract later.

I know. I was only citing the example to prove it is legal under Irish law. If it's legal for Brian O'Driscoll it's legal for anyone


Drafting 18-year-olds to the other end of the country would require wages many multiples of what's currently available to new players in the league to make it anyway attractive. Who's going to move from Dublin to Derry for €80 a week? For this to be viable, the league would have to be much bigger and richer than it is now, which would mean that a draft system would probably be unnecessary to start with!

As I said, there are rough edges on this plan. There could be some sort of system where you sign a contract with the FAI on your 18th birthday taking you up until a whole season after you leave the academy, then after the draft you technically go on a season long loan, with the FAI paying a percentage of your wages which the clubs would like. Or all professionals in Ireland could be contracted to the FAI which would give them a degree of protection from the financial mess some clubs have gotten themselves into.


How would no relegation ensure better crowds?

Because the clubs that attract the biggest crowds would always be there. In the event that you finish last, instead of being relegated and plunged into financial crisis you get 1st draft pick and get the best emerging talent in Ireland into your squad and hopefully do better next year. And your place in the league wouldn't be taken by a club that despite attracting crowds in the 100s rather than 1000s has managed to get promoted. The clubs with bigger crowds always being there increases travelling support which increases revenues for all clubs and over time the pie gets bigger. That's the theory anyway

But like I said *puts on tin hat*

[Macy]

FromThe Belfast Giants have shown what is possible with the right amount of hype and glitter. On a good weekend they get more people into the Odyssey Arena than the 5 Irish league sides in Belfast manage between them. To watch Ice Hockey.
I'll try and get back to the substantive points, but I wouldn't rush to use the Belfast Giants as an example - I remember when the Manchester Giants (basketball) and Manchester Storm (ice hockey) were packing out the Manchester Areana....

[CraftyToePoke]

Because the clubs that attract the biggest crowds would always be there. In the event that you finish last, instead of being relegated and plunged into financial crisis you get 1st draft pick and get the best emerging talent in Ireland into your squad and hopefully do better next year. And your place in the league wouldn't be taken by a club that despite attracting crowds in the 100s rather than 1000s has managed to get promoted. The clubs with bigger crowds always being there increases travelling support which increases revenues for all clubs and over time the pie gets bigger. That's the theory anyway

Except it wont produce better players, sending the best young player to play in the worst side will not improve him, higher placed clubs have better players, and can generally afford better coaches also. Playing with better players can only improve you, players regularly say that. This system flies against that.

[backstothewall]

Except it wont produce better players, sending the best young player to play in the worst side will not improve him, higher placed clubs have better players, and can generally afford better coaches also. Playing with better players can only improve you, players regularly say that. This system flies against that.

I never said it would. You are confusing 2 issues. I suggested abolishing promotion and relegation as it has to potential to increase crowds and provide more financial stability. At the moment promotion and relegation seem to be being decided by financial problems off the pitch as often as by results on it.

I'm only talking about sending players to LOI clubs at 18/19 after 3 or 4 years of intensive, proper training in a national academy system, developing their technical abilities instead of playing kick and run football in local under-age leagues. If that doesn't improve the standard of players coming out of our under-age set-up I don't know what will. It has to be better than the current system of shipping everyone we can to England and Scotland, and letting those left behind to get stuck into the Guinness. A similar system is operating very successfully for the MLS and by extension for the American national team. As long as every suggestion someone in this country makes for trying to improve something is shot down nothing is going to change. What is your suggestion? More of the same?

I appreciate what you are saying about Ice Hockey Macy, it is a notoriously unstable business, but the Giants are operating for 12 years now, and have only had the 1 financial crisis in 2002ish which was brought on by the league they were in folding. I wasn't using the example to suggest anything other than what can be achieved if you provide a family friendly atmosphere and good facilities. I have never seen a single kid playing that in line hockey thing around Belfast, yet they go in their thousands to watch it. Rugby has managed the same thing with the provinces.

Football should surely be able to match that.

[CraftyToePoke]

I'm only talking about sending players to LOI clubs at 18/19 after 3 or 4 years of intensive, proper training in a national academy system, developing their technical abilities instead of playing kick and run football in local under-age leagues. If that doesn't improve the standard of players coming out of our under-age set-up I don't know what will. It has to be better than the current system of shipping everyone we can to England and Scotland, and letting those left behind to get stuck into the Guinness. A similar system is operating very successfully for the MLS and by extension for the American national team. As long as every suggestion someone in this country makes for trying to improve something is shot down nothing is going to change. What is your suggestion? More of the same?

No, no, I'm not shooting at you for the sake of it, there is value in what you say, however, after investing 3 or 4 years of proper coaching into your best young guy, I don't agree that its for the betterment to then send him to keep the company of weaker players, at that age he will be peaking and will need to kick on. Also, as we are working from a small population base to begin with, its key our elite few's talent is maximized.

Unlikely I realize but as an alternative suggestion, what if such an academy forged links with European sides, like certain bigger clubs in the UK have in Belgium (as a loose example) where the best young guys could spend a period in that system, imagine if we could get it to a standard whereby the most admired European academies were lining up to give our guys a place.

Maybe that's beyond us, I don't know, it would be nice to somehow bypass the UK route into anti football and in most cases the scrap heap.

[tricky_colour]

Is Cornwell included?

[backstothewall]

No, no, I'm not shooting at you for the sake of it, there is value in what you say, however, after investing 3 or 4 years of proper coaching into your best young guy, I don't agree that its for the betterment to then send him to keep the company of weaker players, at that age he will be peaking and will need to kick on. Also, as we are working from a small population base to begin with, its key our elite few's talent is maximized.

Unlikely I realize but as an alternative suggestion, what if such an academy forged links with European sides, like certain bigger clubs in the UK have in Belgium (as a loose example) where the best young guys could spend a period in that system, imagine if we could get it to a standard whereby the most admired European academies were lining up to give our guys a place.

Maybe that's beyond us, I don't know, it would be nice to somehow bypass the UK route into anti football and in most cases the scrap heap.

It would be great to get to the level where our at least some of our players were heading straight to Europe and bypassing Britain completely. I would assume we will always have players coming through the English/Scottish systems given out proximity and historical links, but a balance would be great.

A quick google revealed that Holland, France, England, Italy & Spain have such academies. If we had one some sort of exchange scheme could easily be set up. A couple of months in a European academy would be of massive benefit to an aspiring young footballer. And a couple of months here would probably be good for a young French footballer. There are things that British-style teams do better than anyone (there's bound to be right?).

[Charlie Darwin]

I can see why we'd benefit from an exchange but what would the foreign academies get from it?

[nigel-harps1954]

All this chat of going to Europe and England and what-not. I dream of the day players come to Ireland from other countries to develop, and players here aspire to play at the highest level of the League of Ireland.

[backstothewall]

I can see why we'd benefit from an exchange but what would the foreign academies get from it?

A good chance to improve their English if nothing else.

And when did you last see Spain score a headed goal from a cross from deep. There are some things we are actually very good at in this part of the world. Tika-taka football is great to watch and all but how dangerous would Spain be if they could suddenly change it up and score a goal like Andy Carrolls for England v Sweden