Republic of Ireland V Croatia - Sunday, 10th June 2012 - Euro 2012 Group C

[geysir]

why are some saying Jelavic wasnt offside? wasnt he a good yard off from the Modric (?) shot? he then made no attempt to get back onside and thus benefited from being in an offside position when the ward kick landed in front of him.
Here's one explanation on this very question, see what you think of it.
Was Jelavić's goal offside? (http://sports.stackexchange.com/questions/929/was-jelavics-goal-offside)

[Zizou]

Thought we looked like a League of Ireland team when they play in Europe. Totally and utterly out of our depth. So poor on the ball it's actually depressing. And that was against Croatia, not Spain, Germany or France. We are the worst team in the tournament. Fact. After 10 years of waiting and hoping this is the biggest let down in my 26 years watching Ireland.

[osarusan]

why are some saying Jelavic wasnt offside? wasnt he a good yard off from the Modric (?) shot? he then made no attempt to get back onside and thus benefited from being in an offside position when the ward kick landed in front of him.

Here's a post from somebody on another forum.


Note there is no such thing as “active” and “passive [offside] position” in the Laws of the Game, those are just jargon terms. For an offside to be called, the player must be “involved in active play” by one of the three exactly defined activities listed.



A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by:

interfering with play or
interfering with an opponent or
gaining an advantage by being in that position

Now, we would assume that Jelavic definitely met the third criterion as he clearly gained an advantage by being in the position. However, the other poster clarifies further.


We are talking about the last point in this case. And, in the official interpretation of the Laws of the Game (p. 102), it is defined thus:


“gaining an advantage by being in that position” means playing a ball that rebounds to him off a goalpost or the crossbar having been in an offside position or playing a ball that rebounds to him off an opponent having been in an offside position


The referees obviously decided the Irish player has played the ball, therefore, this was not an offside. And I would say this was a correct decision, given the time it took the ball to pass through the defense line – it was not a quick rebound, the ball stopped there for a second. (But I could not find a close-up video of what exactly the Irish player did with the ball.)

I haven't gone to the trouble of consulting a rulebook to find out if the quotes are accurate, but if they are, I can understand the decision.

EDIT: Geysir has linked to the same source, I see.

[Charlie Darwin]

Thought we looked like a League of Ireland team when they play in Europe. Totally and utterly out of our depth. So poor on the ball it's actually depressing. And that was against Croatia, not Spain, Germany or France. We are the worst team in the tournament. Fact. After 10 years of waiting and hoping this is the biggest let down in my 26 years watching Ireland.
You've clearly never watched a League of Ireland team in Europe. They all play far better football than this Irish team.

[Stuttgart88]

Agree with a lot but not all of Owls Fan's view.

The songs are fine. Where was the eirebhoy favourite though, the St.Pauli "Because that's the way we like it" one?

We have ridden our luck in similar games before, even last Monday against Hungary. We always ship chances and always rely on a save, tackle or miss. The clean sheet record is misleading. What was galling was that Croatia barely had to work for their chances and we failed to keep them away from our goal.

The first goal was just surreal, and the others had a decent bit of luck thrown in.

I don't agree re-Cox though. He was stuck out left most of the time which in my view is a daft use of his ability. Hunt or McClean would have been miles better - both for dead ball delivery and also the ability to win fres. In hindsight, I think Liam Lawrence has both the style of game and physical ability to have taken on Croatia. Their physical superiority was telling, not just their technique.

I also have this strong feeling that Spain will be one of the great nights, based on nothing rational whatsoever, just my bones. I think we were caught by stagefright a bit on Sunday.

[jbyrne]

We are the worst team in the tournament. Fact. After 10 years of waiting and hoping this is the biggest let down in my 26 years watching Ireland.

we are in a savage group and I have no doubt we would cope far better against greece, czech rep, poland and possibly even denmark.

if you are being let down so much you obviously had unrealistic expectations before sundays match.

[legendz]

we are in a savage group and I have no doubt we would cope far better against greece, czech rep, poland and possibly even denmark.

if you are being let down so much you obviously had unrealistic expectations before sundays match.

Agreed, if we were in Russia's group, bar Russia, I'd expect us to compete reasonably well. Same could possibly be said of Group D though a bit tougher. Groups B & C were by far the groups we wanted to avoid but didn't landing in group C.

[Stuttgart88]

We probably are the worst team in a competition of mainly very strong teams. Hardly a disgrace. We need to play to our best to compete at this level, unfortunately we froze until it was too late. I'd say we defintely have the worst technical ability. Maybe that is a disgrace of sorts.

I think at one point we were involved in the ugliest move in Euro Championship Finals history, on about 85 mins when we hoofed it up, a Croatian sliced his clearance Kenny Sansom-style up onto the penalty spot and there was a GAA like free for all to win it as it landed. It was almost funny.

[geysir]

Goal one huge deflection off the back of O'Shea puts the ball on the player's head who slips but manages to steady himself and Given unsighted.

I don't know, I'd put it down to Shay in the end - when he did react, his dive looked sluggish, he looked old all of a sudden.

[CMcC]

The English players stuck to their roles unlike our mob. No instances of two players running towards the one ball and leaving a man spare behind (Ward and McGeady). Discipline was exceptional. Credit to Hodgson. Boring to watch but hard to beat.

It does help that Hodgson can work with a back four and midfield players that have a level of talent and quality that we can only dream of.

[CMcC]

I don't know, I'd put it down to Shay in the end - when he did react, his dive looked sluggish, he looked old all of a sudden.

Given seemed to go down in installments for the 1st and 3rd goal. Surely isn't fit.

[OwlsFan]

I don't know, I'd put it down to Shay in the end - when he did react, his dive looked sluggish, he looked old all of a sudden.

In the stadium that's what all those around me thought. Looking at it on tv though he was unsighted I think. If not he was sluggish. The third goal was right in the corner. Nice finishing by him though ;(

[bishbash]

To be fair over the 4 yrs in charge I cant remember to many good performances even against average teams. The style of football is a joke, I'm not after barca football just at least one midfielder who can pass. Trapattoni is bein found out big time now. We played in a poor group to qualify that's just a reality and I believe that any other team other than Estonia would have knocked us out of the qualifying. A manager who speaks of little details knows little to nothing about other players in his squad due to playing the same players in friendly matches, what does this achieve? His 4 4 2 is extremely flawed, whelan and Andrews neither create nor are they players who break up play similar to Scott Parker for example. He's time and era as a manager has come and gone, why bring a player in a squad who you have no intention of using. If Dalglish time is over you can be sure Trapattoni's is too

[OwlsFan]

Thought we looked like a League of Ireland team when they play in Europe. Totally and utterly out of our depth. So poor on the ball it's actually depressing. And that was against Croatia, not Spain, Germany or France. We are the worst team in the tournament. Fact. After 10 years of waiting and hoping this is the biggest let down in my 26 years watching Ireland.

France are actually ranked 14th - 6 places behind Croatia who are 8th in the world. Sorry we didn't play them off the park for you. We fought back to 1-1 after the blow of conceding an early goal and only went behind to a goal that should have been disallowed. Didn't look "totally and utterly" out of our depth to me.

I doubt if we are the worst team. I'd say the Poles and the Czech Republic are around the same standard.

This is the biggest let down in your 26 years of watching Ireland? Let's see, that goes back to 1986. I think you must have had your eyes closed for a lot of the games during that period ! I can think of far greater disappointments than this during that period, not least losing play offs.

[Real ale Madrid]

The reality is we were doing fine against Croatia until just before half time, which clearly should have been a free kick for us. There were 3 officials watching it. If they can't spot what happened, they shouldn't be there.

I have full confidence in Trap, because of what he's achieved elsewhere in the past, and by dragging our bunch of second rate players to within a handball of a WC spot, and to these finals. We're not there through our technical ability, but through our strengths, i.e. discipline, teamwork, and a refusal to cave in. Other countries don't have those qualities. If you want to go back to drawing in Liechtenstein, and conceding 5 in Cyprus for the sake of more "entertaining" football, there are other coaches out there for you.

The other reality is, we're one point off a qualifying spot with 2 games to go. We wouldn't throw the towel in that situation in the qualifiers, and we're not going to start now.

Hey - there is no need to get snippy - I was paying you a compliment. You make out that people who criticise the manager want Steve Staunton to re-take the reins immeadiately. When you see the players give 100% and come up short, people are going to criticise the manager - whether you have complete faith in him or not.

And nobody is throwing in the towel - least not the players - and I'm not giving up on the players either. I think they will give 100%, and I'm also 100% sure that Il Trap will leave no stone unturned in his efforts to do as well as we possibly can over the next 6 days.

However we have a right to say that getting results against two of the strongest teams in the world, while certainly possible, is improbable given what we have seen from this team over the past few years.

But with a little luck and some better defending maybe we can achieve the quarters, so it is with more hope than confidence I say: Come on you boys in green.

[mypost]

Hey - there is no need to get snippy - I was paying you a compliment. You make out that people who criticise the manager want Steve Staunton to re-take the reins immeadiately. When you see the players give 100% and come up short, people are going to criticise the manager - whether you have complete faith in him or not.

And nobody is throwing in the towel - least not the players - and I'm not giving up on the players either. I think they will give 100%, and I'm also 100% sure that Il Trap will leave no stone unturned in his efforts to do as well as we possibly can over the next 6 days.

However we have a right to say that getting results against two of the strongest teams in the world, while certainly possible, is improbable given what we have seen from this team over the past few years.

But with a little luck and some better defending maybe we can achieve the quarters, so it is with more hope than confidence I say: Come on you boys in green.

A lot of Trap's critics wanted Paul Jewell and other English minnow club rejects appointed.

I said before you can have either good football or good results with this team. You can't have both. Our record is a very impressive one in recent years, and with that record, we have earned the right to be in these championships and face big teams. Nobody doubts that getting results in the next two games are very difficult, but our campaign is not over. One point on Thursday is enough to go to Poznan and decide the group there.

[pineapple stu]

The reality is we were doing fine against Croatia until just before half time, which clearly should have been a free kick for us.

The other reality is, we're one point off a qualifying spot with 2 games to go. We wouldn't throw the towel in that situation in the qualifiers, and we're not going to start now.
Ah, mypostian reality...

The actual reality is that Croatia had been much the better team for 15 minutes before they re-took the lead; that goal was coming. The game felt similar to Shamrock Rovers' euro games - you could try convince yourself that Rovers were fighting back in the second half at times, but really the opposition always had another gear if and when it was needed.

The other reality is that if we lose to the world and European champions tomorrow night, we're out, almost regardless of the result in the other games. Of course the players shouldn't be throwing in the towel - we'll only get hammered then - but we're clearly not going to go through short of a miracle.

On the plus side, Gary Breen was the analyst on Singaporean TV. :) Paul Dempsey was host and Ray Houghton has a column in the local paper. Feel right at home!

[Stuttgart88]

I doubt if we are the worst team. I'd say the Poles and the Czech Republic are around the same standard. I think both of them play much better football than we do.

[Straightstory]

I think both of them play much better football than we do.
Judging on the games I saw yesterday (Poles v Russia, Czechs v Greece) both are far superior to us.

[seanfhear]

I think both of them play much better football than we do.Sadly Ireland were probably the worst team that have played.Taking our biased hats off ! Who was worse ?

[geysir]

Poland (population 40m) brought on a Celtic squad player as a sub, whereas we can afford to ignore the merits of a Celtic first team player.

I don't subscribe to that our tactics are awful, it's more the application and discipline that's wanting. Players at FB and CM still need to have a technical ability to make our game work.
Trap hasn't succeeded in getting adequate players to perform at a proficient level at playing this game and if we do manage it, we don't do it with consistency.
He has repeatedly claimed that now we have the mentality and personality to play this game only to be shot back, saying that in such a such a department we were wanting. I don't mind his loyalty and persuading moderate players that they have a hidden treasure of ability hidden inside them.
There is something not clicking and I don't know enough about the game to figure out why moderatly adequate players can play in other national teams and perform adequately
and similar standard players for us at times look clueless and bereft of technique.

[brine3]

Sweden are probably worse than us.

Lucky for us they are in our WC quailification group!

[OwlsFan]

I think both of them play much better football than we do.

Better football - which is better football: A punt up the field, a knock on by a forward and his mate runs on and scores or 4 or 5 one twos resulting in a goal? Perhaps the latter by accepted standards but I would prefer to talk about effective football. If we had the Poles and Czechs in our group along with Greece, I would say we would play the more effective foolball of the 4 and would be confident of getting out of the group.

The trouble with our group is that we are in with some of the best teams in the world which seems to have passed over a lot of people's heads. When expectations are unrealistically high people feel let down when the result doesn't go their way. We were the 4th seed in a group of 4 and missed the two weaker home nations. The bar was also set high by our previous qualifications for Finals but if we look at Scotland's record in such competitions, that might people a more sobering view of what we have achieved in the past.

Anyway, let's be positive about tomorrow and remember Gerry Armstrong did it so why can't we?

[Closed Account 2]

I think Sweden were spectacularly limited, the entire team, with the exception of the sub Wilhelmsonn, looked to have feet of clay.

I think people are underestimating Croatia, they went to Turkey and won 3-0 in the play-offs, the Turks biggest competitive home defeat in since at least 2006. To put it into context the much feted Spanish only beat Turkey 2-1 in Istanbul thanks to a dodgy penalty and 92nd minute goal.

We're comfortably a fourth seed team - it would be silly to say we're one of the top 12 teams in Europe at the moment, but after a defeat against a team which is certainly a top 10 (and possibly a top 8) European team I wouldn't say we're clearly the worst team. If we were in group A or group D I think we would be able to match the Czechs and Greeks or the Swedes and English.

What you have to bear in mind is the lack of tournament experience our team has. Every other nation at Euro 2012 has been to a competition within at least the last six years.

Russia (2004, 2008), Czech (2004, 2006, 2008) Greece (2004, 2008, 2010) Poland (2006, 2008)

Italy (2004, 2006, 2008, 2010), Spain (same), Croatia (2004, 2006, 2008).

Germany (2004, 2006, 2008, 2010), Holland (same), Portugal (same), Denmark (2004, 2010)

France (2004, 2006, 2008, 2010), England (2004, 2006, 2010), Sweden (2004, 2006, 2008), Ukraine (2006).

No other team has had such a gap since being at a tournament, and there are a lot of teams that didn't qualify who have more tournament experience (Serbia, Turkey, the Swiss). Even if you take Ukraine, the closest example to us in terms of qualification for a tournament, theyve got quite a few key players who were at both 2012 and 2006 (Tymoschuck, Shevchenko, Milyevski, Pyatov, Nazarenko, Husev, Rotan, Voronin) we just dont have this experience.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't want to be all negative on the back of a bad night's work but I do think it's hard not to think that for some reason - as Geysir says - things aren't clicking. Part of it is simply that we froze on Sunday, simple rabbit in the headlights stuff. Even despite our primitive football we can play better.

On the positive side, we won't get physically bullied in our next 2 games as much as Croatia did.

As I see it having good mobile full backs is key to adding fluency to our team. A modern full back is defensively good, able to patrol the wing and, importantly, develop play by interplay with CM. This is missing from our set up. Kelly is a more natural full back than JOS I think, Coleman is WIP.

Gibson is far more comfortable on the ball than the other two, but yet I can see why the other two get picked. However, I thought we played well against Bosnia and I think Gibson was the root of that.

It's not all gloom but without imaginative change I don't see any imporovement in the quality of our play.

Anyone who remembers me from my soccercentral.ie days will remember that I used to bang on about 3 at the back. Since Irwin, Kelly, Stan, Harte and Finnan all went off the scene I've been underwhlmed by our full back options but we're OK at centre-back. So, if you don't have full backs, why persist with inadequate ones?

So:

--------------------GK----------------------------
-------------JOS--Dunne--SSL--------------
Coleman------------------------------------McClean
--------------------Whelan-------------
-------Gibson-------------------Andrews
-------------Keane-------Walters-----------

[Stuttgart88]

The thanks button has disappeared - so thanks to owls fan and cfdh for those last 2 posts, some good stuff in there. But I still think we're one dimensional and we don't need to be!

[PatJR]

That formation certainly worked for Italy against Spain. But he will basically stick to 4-4-2 and that's probably fair enough at this late stage. You can morph the 4-4-2 to look like that when Spain have possesion, back four (plus Whelan\Andrews) narrow and tight. Wingers a bit wider to cover Spanish fullbacks. Whatever formation\personal it won't save us if we start as we did last Sunday. But I agree with many of the comments that talked about nerves etc. so hopefully we can give a better account of ourselves tomorrow.

[Stuttgart88]

Better football - which is better football: A punt up the field, a knock on by a forward and his mate runs on and scores or 4 or 5 one twos resulting in a goal? Perhaps the latter by accepted standards but I would prefer to talk about effective football. If we had the Poles and Czechs in our group along with Greece, I would say we would play the more effective foolball of the 4 and would be confident of getting out of the group.Oh come on. Poland played both effectively and technically profieciently. They fought back well, and exerted their game on Russia in a way I don't think we could. When did we ever have Russia on the back foot apart from when they (badly - what a dumb penalty to concede for example) defended a 3-0 lead?

I think Ireland struggles against eastern europeans in particular because as well as being technically strong, they tend to employ orthodox forwards and can deal with us at the back. Latins are also technically strong but often go with fancy-dans up front and I think we can keep that sort of team at bay easier, and at the back they are sometimes less physical.

No one is demanding 4 or 5 one-twos! I agree that you don't get extra points for artistic merit, and I've always said that, but if you can't retain the ball you're up against it against anyone.

[Metrostars]

You can see here Shay was unsighted for the first goal:

http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/dynamic/01062/17ire_1062661s.jpg

[geysir]

Yes but even allowing for that, Shay's dive looked uncharacteristically sluggish.

[mypost]

The actual reality is that Croatia had been much the better team for 15 minutes before they re-took the lead; that goal was coming. The game felt similar to Shamrock Rovers' euro games - you could try convince yourself that Rovers were fighting back in the second half at times, but really the opposition always had another gear if and when it was needed.

Indeed. Even Partizan Belgrade will tell you how effective their other gear was when they needed it. Even with that, it's complete madness attempting to compare the ability at LOI club level with the top tier of International Football. So I won't.

Despite them being "much the better team" before half time, the goal would have never come if our defender wasn't fouled in the build up or the ref had blown for it.


The other reality is that if we lose to the world and European champions tomorrow night, we're out.

I think I had discovered that at about 10.30 on Sunday night.


but we're clearly not going to go through short of a miracle.

Where were you in Stuttgart 88? Predicting comprehensive 4-0 wins for England probably. After all, we were the cinderella side that were only there because the Bulgars weren't good enough. Us and our dour football would be no match for the tournament favourites after all, and there was zero prospect of us coming within 10 minutes of a semi-final. Wasn't there?

Where were you in New York? Predicting 3-0 wins for Italy no doubt as we had never beaten them before and were outplayed by the Czechs at home just 2 weeks before. How were we going to deal with Baggio, Signori, and Baresi?

We struggle to keep possession, but I've seen every side in this tournament so far give the ball away at some point. 8 of them will be out in a week's time. I don't need to be told that we have a very hard task tomorrow night, but we have got results from "improbable" and "miracle" scenarios before, and we will do it again. Tomorrow night is as good a time as any.

[tricky_colour]

Yes some of the pessimists would have us on the plane flying back already!!

[shakermaker1982]

I thought I was positive but mypost is on another level!

[micls]

Being the worst team in the tournament is better than being the best team that didn't make it. Some people have ridiculously unrealistic expectations!

[tricky_colour]

I'm gonna be laughing when Croatia beat Italy!!

[pineapple stu]

Even with that, it's complete madness attempting to compare the ability at LOI club level with the top tier of International Football. So I won't.
Not the comparison I made. I compared the differences between the relative levels - LoI v UEFA Cup groups to Ireland v rest of our group.


Despite them being "much the better team" before half time, the goal would have never come if our defender wasn't fouled in the build up or the ref had blown for it.
Disagree. The goal was coming. If Croatia hadn't scored either of their two, they'd have gotten one sooner or later. They played out the game for the last 40 minutes.



Where were you in Stuttgart 88? Predicting comprehensive 4-0 wins for England probably. After all, we were the cinderella side that were only there because the Bulgars weren't good enough. Us and our dour football would be no match for the tournament favourites after all, and there was zero prospect of us coming within 10 minutes of a semi-final. Wasn't there?

Where were you in New York? Predicting 3-0 wins for Italy no doubt as we had never beaten them before and were outplayed by the Czechs at home just 2 weeks before. How were we going to deal with Baggio, Signori, and Baresi?
Nope, not that any of that is relevant. I'm going on what I've seen in this tournament. Games from 20 years ago are irrelevant.

[mypost]

Not the comparison I made. I compared the differences between the relative levels - LoI v UEFA Cup groups to Ireland v rest of our group.

And I told you there was no comparison. National team football has it's level, LOI football has it's level.


Disagree. The goal was coming. If Croatia hadn't scored either of their two, they'd have gotten one sooner or later. They played out the game for the last 40 minutes.

I can disagree and argue that if we had gone in level at half time, we would have a chance to regroup and play better after the break. Despite Croatia been the better team for a third of the half, they weren't coming at us in waves. Then they fouled Ward to take the lead, scored another right after half time and sat there for the remaining 40 minutes, helped by refs turning blind eyes to stonewall penalty claims.


Nope, not that any of that is relevant. I'm going on what I've seen in this tournament. Games from 20 years ago are irrelevant.

In the context of what you've written, it's very relevant. What is irrelevant now is that result in Poznan, as the Croats went home at the same stage as we did.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Sadly your optimism (and even mine!) was massively misplaced.

[DeLorean]

Bumping thread.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw914Fe_jno

[DeLorean]

Closed thread.