FAI refuse to sanction tournament in Thomond Park.

[osarusan]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0518/1224316281081.html


LIMERICK FANS look set to miss out on the chance to see Chelsea and Celtic play at Thomond Park after the FAI refused to sanction a pre-season tournament in the stadium. Thomond Park had lined up the Champions League finalists and Scottish Premier League champions plus two other “leading European teams” for a tournament to take place on the August Bank Holiday weekend.

However, in a repeat of the controversial decision to refuse to allow Limerick FC play a friendly with Barcelona in 2010, the FAI have refused to give the green light for the tournament.

John Cantwell, stadium manager at Thomond Park, confirmed the venue “had the opportunity to host a tournament”.

“We received an offer from a leading promoter to hold a tournament with some big teams including Chelsea and Celtic and some European teams,” he said. “We obviously put in a request to the FAI, because we can’t hold it without sanction from them, but that hasn’t been forthcoming. The reason being given is that they have an alternative, another tournament planned for the same period.”

Sounds like this was nothing to do with Limerick FC, who wouldn't have been involved, so if a mod wants to move it to another forum (I didn't know where to put it), go ahead.

[Jofspring]

Ya it doesn't look like it would have had anything to do with us, the FAI or any football team in the area.

Can see why this one was stopped. As I said elsewhere its like the fai or a company inviting over super 14 rugby teams to play in a mini tournament without the involvement of an Irish rugby team or the irfu. It ain't happening.

[bullit]

I would be with the FAIlures on this one.

[bluemovie]

Isn't this a case of the FAI needing to hoard all the good stuff for Lansdowne in order to pay off debt?

[Jofspring]

Isn't this a case of the FAI needing to hoard all the good stuff for Lansdowne in order to pay off debt?

Yes and no I suppose. Yes the FAI are trying to keep games in the aviva to pay off the debt.

No in this case because the above event would not benefit anyone other that thomond park ltd and will be of no benefit to any football in Ireland. It would just rival any tournament the fai run this summer.

[bluemovie]

Yeah that's kind of what I meant. The FAI are enforcing a monopoly. Thomond games don't benefit them so they won't let them go ahead.

[Macy]

Isn't this a case of the FAI needing to hoard all the good stuff for Lansdowne in order to pay off debt?
Ultimately Yes. But they have a legitimate case in this instance, as it isn't benefitting any level of football in this case.

[Dodge]

Yeah that's kind of what I meant. The FAI are enforcing a monopoly. Thomond games don't benefit them so they won't let them go ahead.

These games don't benefit any part of Irish football, and rightly aren't allowed. can't see the argument for it being sanctoned to be honest

[A N Mouse]

Yeah that's kind of what I meant. The FAI are enforcing a monopoly. Thomond games don't benefit them so they won't let them go ahead.

Well Limerick had a case. The association were putting their own interests ahead of one of their members.

This instance - a (pre-season) tournament involving solely foreign teams (during our season) - should always be a non-starter (at anytime, not just during our season).

The fact that that date is likely when they'd have their super cup tourney should be neither here or there.

That said I'm sure the fai would love to be able to stage the dublin thing without an irish team.

[A face]

Good stuff, well played FAI

[Macy]

can't see the argument for it being sanctoned to be honest
Won't someone think of the children/ barstooler?

[Longfordian]

Bit ironic that it comes a couple of days after the initial bid for Euro 2020 which would probably need Thomond Park. Still, I'll have to side with the FAI on this one too..<shudder>..

[Spudulika]

Horrible precedent being set.

[Dodge]

Horrible precedent being set.

Only thing unprecedented about this tournament is that it lacks any Irish football involvment. If thats the precedent the FAI want to set, then fair play to them

[adamd164]

If the profits from having Sellthick do a token trip to bulk up their plastic paddy brigade were only going to the Thomand Park ownership company then **** 'em. Right decision.

[Charlie Darwin]

Surprised nobody pointed out the "Limerick fans" in the article. Then again, having to put up with Pat Scully all year they might be grateful for the opportunity to watch Chelsea reserves play Celtic reserves.

[Jofspring]

Ya I mentioned it elsewhere that that the opening "Limerick Fans" was very misleading. Really it should have said Limericks Chelsea or Celtic fans. Limerick Fans have nothing to gain from it. The only people that seem to be whinging is the barstoolers.

Limerick vs Longford is on in the Limerick the same weekend if they want a live bit of footie.

[Spudulika]

Only thing unprecedented about this tournament is that it lacks any Irish football involvment. If thats the precedent the FAI want to set, then fair play to them

So Ireland go out of the 2020 championships early, and in a quarter final Latvia play Georgia at Aviva. Has to be blocked too, right? According to that logic.

Going down this road the FAI are opening themselves and football in Ireland into some difficult times. Should the English FA not have blocked non-english national teams play international friendlies on their soil - likewise the Belgians (Ireland vs Italy). We can't have it every way.

[Charlie Darwin]

So Ireland go out of the 2020 championships early, and in a quarter final Latvia play Georgia at Aviva. Has to be blocked too, right? According to that logic.
What? That would be a tournament that had Irish involvement.

[A N Mouse]

So Ireland go out of the 2020 championships early, and in a quarter final Latvia play Georgia at Aviva. Has to be blocked too, right? According to that logic.

Going down this road the FAI are opening themselves and football in Ireland into some difficult times. Should the English FA not have blocked non-english national teams play international friendlies on their soil - likewise the Belgians (Ireland vs Italy). We can't have it every way.

Three things.

1) As already pointed out your first example has irish involvement.
2) Each of those other examples are individual games (hence a lesser evil), and at least benefited members of the home association whose ground was used.
3) In the case of england, at any rate, the international friendlies will not affect the england national team, or their league program, and tend to involve countries with a large immigrant communty (if only our barstoolers had that excuse).

[Dodge]

So Ireland go out of the 2020 championships early, and in a quarter final Latvia play Georgia at Aviva. Has to be blocked too, right? According to that logic.
I don't think you understand logic (based on that statement)


Going down this road the FAI are opening themselves and football in Ireland into some difficult times.
Should the English FA not have blocked non-english national teams play international friendlies on their soil - likewise the Belgians (Ireland vs Italy). We can't have it every way.
In the English examples, and the Belgian example, the games were held in football grounds. SO at the very least, they profited there.

In the Limerick example, the people to profit would be the holding company behind a Rugby ground, a private company and several foreign clubs. Perhaps you'd like to show me how Irish football would benefit?

[Spudulika]

I don't think you understand logic (based on that statement) Kind of do, but your next part raises questions.


In the English examples, and the Belgian example, the games were held in football grounds. SO at the very least, they profited there.

In the Limerick example, the people to profit would be the holding company behind a Rugby ground, a private company and several foreign clubs. Perhaps you'd like to show me how Irish football would benefit?

By your "logic" Irish football, and rugby, lost massively by having full houses for matches at Croke Park, right?

I do believe that this is a dangerous precedent being set down by the FAI, it's using/abusing it's power to sanction matches, when a case could be made that the more big events held in Ireland the better. If a Mayweather-Pacquiao fight were scheduled to be held in Croke Park/Aviva/Thomond this summer, with a completely non-Irish undercard, I have a sneaking suspicion the media wouldn't allow them to think twice.

[Poor Student]

I do believe that this is a dangerous precedent being set down by the FAI, it's using/abusing it's power to sanction matches, when a case could be made that the more big events held in Ireland the better.

Exactly, it's complete rubbish. Every game of football here shouldn't require some direct benefit to the Irish game. If a private company wishes to invite foreign clubs to play a match here then I can't see the problem. If it generates a profit then all the better and well done. If that's what people wish to see then let them pay and attend, if not, the venture will be a failure and the organisers will take a hit.

I'd prefer Irish football were attented and supported through its own merits and not through restricting competition. Very small minded, it would remind you of De Valera's trade war.

[Lim till i die]

Occured to me last night - How does honest John stand legally on this given his roles in both the FAI and the Aviva??

Like leave football out of it for a second, is this not a fella using his clout within one organisation he's involved with to stop a rival of the other organisation he's involved with from trading??

Possibly nothing wrong with it whatsoever but it seems a bit off to me??

Also does Celtic going public = Dermot Desmond being a bit miffed = a pain for the FAI??

We may be living in interesting times.

[A N Mouse]

By your "logic" Irish football, and rugby, lost massively by having full houses for matches at Croke Park, right?

I do believe that this is a dangerous precedent being set down by the FAI, it's using/abusing it's power to sanction matches, when a case could be made that the more big events held in Ireland the better. If a Mayweather-Pacquiao fight were scheduled to be held in Croke Park/Aviva/Thomond this summer, with a completely non-Irish undercard, I have a sneaking suspicion the media wouldn't allow them to think twice.

You really don't seem to be following at all. The fai, and irfu rented the venue in these instances. If you like someone can explain the 'i' in each of those for you.

And please stop with the hypotheticals - or at least get someone, a small child perhaps, to think of some better ones.


Exactly, it's complete rubbish. Every game of football here shouldn't require some direct benefit to the Irish game. If a private company wishes to invite foreign clubs to play a match here then I can't see the problem. If it generates a profit then all the better and well done. If that's what people wish to see then let them pay and attend, if not, the venture will be a failure and the organisers will take a hit.

I'd prefer Irish football were attented and supported through its own merits and not through restricting competition. Very small minded, it would remind you of De Valera's trade war.

Would you impose any limits on private enterprise?

For example (and personally speaking i think this is a much better hypothetically than we've seen in this thread so far) should the epl revisit their hair brained scheme to bring their league games outside england and wales. And the gaa decide oh that sounds good, here use headquarters. Would that would be ok?


Occured to me last night - How does honest John stand legally on this given his roles in both the FAI and the Aviva??

Like leave football out of it for a second, is this not a fella using his clout within one organisation he's involved with to stop a rival of the other organisation he's involved with from trading??

Possibly nothing wrong with it whatsoever but it seems a bit off to me??

Also does Celtic going public = Dermot Desmond being a bit miffed = a pain for the FAI??

We may be living in interesting times.

Now you might actually be on to something.

Wasn't the participation agreement brought up last time? Is someone trying to circumvent that?

But lets face it for the foreseeble future there's only one place glamour friendly tournaments are going to take place.

Can any of our free trade advocates give an example of a friendly tournament being organised outside the auspices of the home fa, and without any involvement of home clubs (either playing or providing venue)?

[Poor Student]

Would you impose any limits on private enterprise?

For example (and personally speaking i think this is a much better hypothetically than we've seen in this thread so far) should the epl revisit their hair brained scheme to bring their league games outside england and wales. And the gaa decide oh that sounds good, here use headquarters. Would that would be ok?


Yes, it would. The LOI should stand up as a product on its own merits. If EPL clubs aren't playing friendlies here then it'll still be the priority on the sports segment of our national news, the subject of an extended highlights programme on our national boradcaster etc. Similarly, if the FAI feels this tournament detracts attention or income from their endeavours it's up to them to offer something better priced, more interesting or let the other party at it.

There are friendlies played often in the US between big European clubs during the summer. Off the top of my head I can remember Celtic playing Man U in the Toronto SkyDome, which is not a football stadium, and I'm pretty sure it was a third party company who organised and promoted the match. Did it take place under the auspices of the home FA? I'm not sure but it seems to be necessary for any game to take place according to what has happened in Limerick. Have I ever seen of an FA attempting to block such games elsewhere? To the best of my knowledge, no.

[Spudulika]

You really don't seem to be following at all. The fai, and irfu rented the venue in these instances. If you like someone can explain the 'i' in each of those for you.

And please stop with the hypotheticals - or at least get someone, a small child perhaps, to think of some better ones.he I won't trade insult as you clearly are a little off teh track. So I'll just revert to Limerick's case. They are an Irish club (last I heard) they organised a fundraising friendly, were blocked because of a previously unknown (from what I remember) contract clause with a 3rd party private company who were profiting from hosting matches in Ireland.

So before you throw more senseless insults into the mix, just think that it could be your club next - monopoly is monopoly and as with Telecom Eireann many moons ago with tariff altering, the public didn't cop before it was too late. I have yet to see an argument put forward that wipes out the benefit of hosting the tournament.




Would you impose any limits on private enterprise?

For example (and personally speaking i think this is a much better hypothetically than we've seen in this thread so far) should the epl revisit their hair brained scheme to bring their league games outside england and wales. And the gaa decide oh that sounds good, here use headquarters. Would that would be ok?



Now you might actually be on to something.

Wasn't the participation agreement brought up last time? Is someone trying to circumvent that?

But lets face it for the foreseeble future there's only one place glamour friendly tournaments are going to take place.

Can any of our free trade advocates give an example of a friendly tournament being organised outside the auspices of the home fa, and without any involvement of home clubs (either playing or providing venue)?

North America regularly hosts matches with non-national club teams. Google it, they exist.

[A N Mouse]

I won't trade insult as you clearly are a little off teh track.
You made two posts with multiple analogies that either showed little appreciation of the points raised up to that juncture, or were of questionable relevance. Sure I could have been more polite about it, but it was an effort to keep you on track.

Seems I partly succeded. No more anaolgies, but this instead :

So I'll just revert to Limerick's case. They are an Irish club (last I heard) they organised a fundraising friendly, were blocked because of a previously unknown (from what I remember) contract clause with a 3rd party private company who were profiting from hosting matches in Ireland.

This is not being debated here. I don't think anyone here claims the fai were in the right over the incident with limerick's proposed friendly last year.

Instead the majority seem to be of the opinion that, however they arrived at it, in this instance the fai have made a good decision.


So before you throw more senseless insults into the mix, just think that it could be your club next - monopoly is monopoly and as with Telecom Eireann many moons ago with tariff altering, the public didn't cop before it was too late. I have yet to see an argument put forward that wipes out the benefit of hosting the tournament.

That boat has sailed my friend. All, participating, clubs would appear to be subject to the ruling from last year. The fact that only Limerick would really have that option open to them is beside the point.


I have yet to see an argument put forward that wipes out the benefit of hosting the tournament.

Your mind seems to be made up, and I doubt anything will change it. Good luck tilting at windmills.


Yes, it would. The LOI should stand up as a product on its own merits. If EPL clubs aren't playing friendlies here then it'll still be the priority on the sports segment of our national news, the subject of an extended highlights programme on our national boradcaster etc. Similarly, if the FAI feels this tournament detracts attention or income from their endeavours it's up to them to offer something better priced, more interesting or let the other party at it.


So just to be clear you are advocating that the fai sanction english top flight league matches in Dublin? Because that was the question you were asked.

All this talk of monolopies and free markets is severely missing the point.

Football is not a free market. Its a walled garden, and if you want in then you have to go through the gatekeeper.



There are friendlies played often in the US between big European clubs during the summer. Off the top of my head I can remember Celtic playing Man U in the Toronto SkyDome, which is not a football stadium, and I'm pretty sure it was a third party company who organised and promoted the match. Did it take place under the auspices of the home FA? I'm not sure but it seems to be necessary for any game to take place according to what has happened in Limerick. Have I ever seen of an FA attempting to block such games elsewhere? To the best of my knowledge, no.


North America regularly hosts matches with non-national club teams. Google it, they exist.

I'm well aware that individual matches take place. This has been happening since football began to be codified - teams going on tour and tourist teams meeting in exhibition matches.

In principle I have no complaint with this.

I specifically asked for examples of a tournament (preferably a recent one) were local football was not getting its pound of flesh.

[Dodge]

North America regularly hosts matches with non-national club teams. Google it, they exist.

They're sanctioned by the USSF and MLS because they want to raise awareness of the sport. Thats not needed here.

And the US isn't the place to be arguing about free market football economics when they have salary caps, restrictions on ownership and generally run in the exact way some here are decrying the FAI for doing.

The argument that the League should be able to stand on its own two feet would be valid if it wasn't in the pits. As it is, it needs all the protection it can get. And if thats at the expense of foreign clubs and businessmen with no interest i irish football, then so be it

[marinobohs]

The argument that the League should be able to stand on its own two feet would be valid if it wasn't in the pits. As it is, it needs all the protection it can get. And if thats at the expense of foreign clubs and businessmen with no interest i irish football, then so be it


Pretty much sums it up for me. Just as a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day I think the FAI got this one right. A football associations main aim should be development of the game and this proposed tournament in no way benifits Irish Football.

[passerrby]

fai got this one completely correct.

[A face]

The argument that the League should be able to stand on its own two feet would be valid if it wasn't in the pits. As it is, it needs all the protection it can get. And if thats at the expense of foreign clubs and businessmen with no interest i irish football, then so be it

This thread in a nutshell

And by the same token, could we go off and hold an international rugby 7's in Dalymount with no Irish teams/clubs/players involved? You can bet your bottom dollar this would not be supported/sanctioned and there would be no scruples in tell us where to go .... and rightly so.

[Jofspring]

Seems there may be more to this than first thought.

Reports today that the crowd the FAI were due to run a tournament with this summer want nothing to do with it anymore and are the ones behind the thomond park tournament. The FAI wanted nearly double the rent that the FA want for wembley. Apparently a 4 year tv deal had been set up for the thomond park tournament also. Celtic have been getting in on it now saying the FAI have no right to stop this tournament. Limerick FC will have no involvement either.


On the grounds that no money from this will go back into irish football I'd be against it but according to the crowd running the tournament the FAI made a balls of setting up a tournament in Dublin and tried to screw them basically and this as much about Delaney throwing his toys out of the pram as him protecting Irish footballs interests.

[Dodge]

Celtic have been getting in on it now saying the FAI have no right to stop this tournament

Pats couldn't play Limerick in a friendly without the FAI's OK. Celtic, if they said it, are talking rubbish

Now, any links to these reports or quotes. Be interesting to see where they come from

I'd like to start picking holes in it (like the FAI not being the people charging rent for Aviva for starters)

[nigel-harps1954]

Seems there may be more to this than first thought.

Reports today that the crowd the FAI were due to run a tournament with this summer want nothing to do with it anymore and are the ones behind the thomond park tournament. The FAI wanted nearly double the rent that the FA want for wembley. Apparently a 4 year tv deal had been set up for the thomond park tournament also. Celtic have been getting in on it now saying the FAI have no right to stop this tournament. Limerick FC will have no involvement either.


On the grounds that no money from this will go back into irish football I'd be against it but according to the crowd running the tournament the FAI made a balls of setting up a tournament in Dublin and tried to screw them basically and this as much about Delaney throwing his toys out of the pram as him protecting Irish footballs interests.



Now we're getting somewhere..just when you think things are starting to go right within the FAI.

Alike Dodge though, I would like to see where this is coming from.

[marinobohs]

Seems there may be more to this than first thought.

Reports today that the crowd the FAI were due to run a tournament with this summer want nothing to do with it anymore and are the ones behind the thomond park tournament. The FAI wanted nearly double the rent that the FA want for wembley. Apparently a 4 year tv deal had been set up for the thomond park tournament also. Celtic have been getting in on it now saying the FAI have no right to stop this tournament. Limerick FC will have no involvement either.

On the grounds that no money from this will go back into irish football I'd be against it but according to the crowd running the tournament the FAI made a balls of setting up a tournament in Dublin and tried to screw them basically and this as much about Delaney throwing his toys out of the pram as him protecting Irish footballs interests.


A damn sight more 'right' with the FAI than a scottish football club in dictating if/when football fixtures are played in Ireland.

Wonder is this an attempt to see if any carpet bagger can arrange football game(s) without the approval of the FAI (ie not have to pay FAI ) as a precedent ?

[Jofspring]

Pats couldn't play Limerick in a friendly without the FAI's OK. Celtic, if they said it, are talking rubbish

Now, any links to these reports or quotes. Be interesting to see where they come from

I'd like to start picking holes in it (like the FAI not being the people charging rent for Aviva for starters)

It's in todays Limerick Leader.

Ya Celtic are talking through their holes alright. Right down to junior football friendlies can't be authorised in Ireland without it coming from a higher authority i.e the LDMC for junior soccer in Limerick.

Damien O Brien who runs Iconic Worldwide who the FAI claimed in February to have a deal set up to run the Dublin Tournament has said that deal is not in place.


Would be good to get some more input from people that may no more of the ins and outs of the rental etc... than myself as there is a bit of chat here about it. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056644553

[A N Mouse]

Seems there may be more to this than first thought.

Reports today that the crowd the FAI were due to run a tournament with this summer want nothing to do with it anymore and are the ones behind the thomond park tournament. The FAI wanted nearly double the rent that the FA want for wembley. Apparently a 4 year tv deal had been set up for the thomond park tournament also. Celtic have been getting in on it now saying the FAI have no right to stop this tournament. Limerick FC will have no involvement either.


On the grounds that no money from this will go back into irish football I'd be against it but according to the crowd running the tournament the FAI made a balls of setting up a tournament in Dublin and tried to screw them basically and this as much about Delaney throwing his toys out of the pram as him protecting Irish footballs interests.

If true (that they made this claim) celtic should be encouraged to explore their theory to the fullest.

Two games in europe is about all they expect this weather anyways :D

[A face]

No matter what way you look at it, the FAI are fully entitled to make a call on this ... no matter how much sellthick try to muscle in on it.

[osarusan]

The FAI basically had to cave in on the steps of the High Court over the Barcelona fiasco and allow Limerick to hold friendlies in the future.

They were going to lose the case due to (if I remember correctly) a legal conflict of interests - being an organisation trying to make a profit though football games while also being the organisation with the power of sanction over football games organised by other organisations (or something like that).

Does the fact that there is no FAI member club involved this time make a difference legally?

[Lim till i die]

The argument that it's being refused because it brings no benefit to Irish football is a bit spurious to say the least coming from the organisation which brought you the "Manchester United Open Night Extravaganza" and the "Pay Off The Aviva Debt Cup" both of which featured slave labour.

All the while preventing an Irish club from organising its own friendlies lest they hamper the "Pay Off The Aviva Debt Cup"

I have a feeling (nay hope) this story is going to get bigger before it gets smaller.

Honest John must be hoping the boys manage to box above their weight in Poland. Free plastic hammers for all!!

[Jofspring]

The argument that it's being refused because it brings no benefit to Irish football is a bit spurious to say the least coming from the organisation which brought you the "Manchester United Open Night Extravaganza" and the "Pay Off The Aviva Debt Cup" both of which featured slave labour.

All the while preventing an Irish club from organising its own friendlies lest they hamper the "Pay Off The Aviva Debt Cup"

I have a feeling (nay hope) this story is going to get bigger before it gets smaller.

Honest John must be hoping the boys manage to box above their weight in Poland. Free plastic hammers for all!!

Agreed that their track record for protecting Irish soccer isn't the best but in this case, whether Mr Delaney has alterior motives or not, it is best for a tournament like this not to set precendent in this country for other English and European teams to come over, set up their own tournaments and head on their way with a nice few bob extra in their back pockets.

[Dodge]

The argument that it's being refused because it brings no benefit to Irish football is a bit spurious to say the least coming from the organisation which brought you the "Manchester United Open Night Extravaganza" and the "Pay Off The Aviva Debt Cup" both of which featured slave labour.
Nobody's claiming the FAI are angels. But they got money out of that tournament, if no one else did.


All the while preventing an Irish club from organising its own friendlies lest they hamper the "Pay Off The Aviva Debt Cup"
Against its a seperate argument. I'd argue with anyone who thought that was the irght decision

[fieldofmarkets]

Story was all over the Sunday Times yesterday.

Delaney is absolutely just throwing toys...nothing to do with protecting Irish football....more protecting his €400k.

Football issues aside....would it be so bad to fill a few hotel rooms etc. in Limerick?

[Charlie Darwin]

How on earth would denying permission for a tournament protect Delaney's wages? I'm all for Delaney-bashing but it has to make sense.

The quotes from Celtic seem reasonable. If the organiser really intends to go ahead with the tournament in spite of FAI non-approval, he's an idiot.

[fieldofmarkets]

Delaney is paid to be CEO of the FAI.....that really just boils down to ensuring their books and balance sheet are favourable. Football and/or league of Ireland clubs are really not at the top of his list. He's trying to generate large income from the Aviva and has over priced his product. He is backed into a corner and has to "protect" his high price by making sure there are no alternatives. If he were to allow the Thomand event, he would never sell an Aviva tournament for the price he wants to get.

[Charlie Darwin]

If he is looking for that much for the Aviva, he's not going to get it from anyone so he has nothing to protect.

[fieldofmarkets]

I agree...I don't think he'll ever get anything near it. He'll claim he can for as long as possible of course.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Bit of an update: Organiser claims FAI actions are "illegal", he "must" look at offers from abroad. (http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/promoter-behind-thomond-park-soccer-tournament-says-fai-stance-is-illegal-1-3953105?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed)

[Dodge]

He's absolutely clueless.