Match Officials + Impartiality

[Dodge]

I'd say a player or (particularly) a match official gets abuse about their appearance just as much as their performance. "Fat ****", "Ugly *****, "Short ******", "Bald *****", "Ginger ****" etc.

It's no less unacceptable if the target of such abuse is a man, in my opinion.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91KQs12-q4

[gormacha]

You're watching the wrong sport I think. Anyone for a game of Polo?

Unlike what your comment suggests about your opinion, I don't accept that football has to be a place where sexism, racism and homophobia have to exist.

Twenty years ago it would have been acceptable to comment on a player's skin colour. Most people now regard this as totally unacceptable. My point is that sexist abuse is equally unacceptable, and its important when the discussion comes up anywhere where football supporters discuss stuff that it is challenged.

I'm no shrinking violet, and I give as good as I get at matches. But when I shout something, its about what someone does, not their gender, their colour or whatever.

[Macy]

All those years in the 1st Division, and you never once call Philly Hughes a fat b@stard?

[Dodge]

All those years in the 1st Division, and you never once call Philly Hughes a fat b@stard?

In that case wouldn't he be commenting on Hughes actions; ie eating too many snack boxes? ;)

[Spudulika]

Who ate all the pies - with the refrain - Philly Hughes did, Philly Hughes did (in place of you """""""""""""")

[sundance kid]

Was there a reason that the linesman/woman used to run the same side as the bulk of the more vociferous rovers fans back then? I always thought it would have made more sense for them to run the other half of the pitch on our side, and the the opposite on the riverside.
There was a lineswoman we used to get regularly back then, and she was well able for the banter. I've met her through work a few times and she remembers those days with good memories, but she's always glad that our lot didn't find out that she's in a relationship with a now former bohs director.

[Sonny]

It's not really. A stadium full of men shouting abuse at a woman because she's a woman/focussing on her physical features is a lot different to the garden variety abuse male players get.


Tallaght is far from a stadium of men these days.

[askmehoop]

It's not really. A stadium full of men shouting abuse at a woman because she's a woman/focussing on her physical features is a lot different to the garden variety abuse male players get.

Two words, Bobby Ryan

[El-Pietro]

Two words, Bobby Ryan
Clive Delaney
Jason Gavin

[nigel-harps1954]

The question of whether they should prepare to deal with it is completely separate from the question of whether they should have to deal with. If you want to equate sexism with calling somebody fat or a ginger, that's your decision. You might even laugh at it and think it's funny that the crowd is picking on and belittling somebody based on their gender. Maybe it's really funny, I don't know!

Or maybe the abuse that women, particularly in a male-dominated sport like football, have to endure on a daily basis isn't funny at all.

Or maybe it's absolute quality.


But you're not getting my point, it doesn't matter whether they SHOULD have to deal with it or not, because really they do have to deal with it, because like I keep saying, it's something that comes with being a referee, regardless of gender, size, or weight, it's part of the job of being a referee.

I applaud you sticking up for common decency, and for the rights of others, but I'm simply saying, in reality, they have to deal with this sort of thing.

I'm not laughing because as you said "the crowd is picking on and belittling somebody based on their gender", I'm laughing because it was a funny joke. I've heard linesmen get worse abuse over the years, are you going to say to me now, "it's a disgrace they got that sort of abuse simply because they were a man." I think not.

[gormacha]

nigel-harps1954 - do you really not get the qualitative difference between shouting, for example, "phuq off you baldy b0llix" to a male referee in all-male environment, and shouting something at a woman about her being a woman in all-male environment? There is inevitably a sexual innuendo that the woman has to deal with that the baldy b0llix of a ref doesn't. Women simply shouldn't have to run this gauntlet at any time, and especially not in a large public gathering of men.

And you said, "it doesn't matter whether they SHOULD have to deal with it or not, because really they do have to deal with it, ...it's part of the job of being a referee". I completely disagree. That's a license to say anything to anybody. That's the excuse people used twenty years ago to excuse throwing bananas at black players, and that's why black players had to swallow their tongue and not complain in case they were thought of as "problems" that clubs needed to get rid of. It was only when enough people start saying, "that's not on" that people's behaviour started to change. And that's why its important that when the same thing happens to women that some of us say that it's wrong and should stop. Hopefully, in a few years time, the type of abuse women routinely get (and the quieter problem of general discrimination against women in football) will be regarded as out-of-bounds as racism generally is today.

[Macy]

League of Ireland is an all male environment? You really should work on your own clubs attendance patterns if that is the case where you watch football.

As a matter of interest - did the lino actually make a complaint? Was it included in the ref's report?

[nigel-harps1954]

You're really not getting the point. It's one thing that you think I don't understand your point, when in fact I do, convenient that my girlfriend is a strong feminist, but it's another that you keep bringing up the same argument over and over again gormacha.
I understand that a female should not have to go through sexism, just the same way nobody should.

You are the one singling out the woman in this whole thing, 'in a male dominated world'. I'm trying to state my point logically and simply for you, that whether or not it's acceptable, whether or not it should be there, there is abuse toward referees in this sport. Any person, male or female, wanting to be a referee should be prepared to deal with it as it is part of the job. Don't give me that whole '20 years ago' sh**e again because it is simply something that happens in football.

And, for the record, there is a lot worse things shouted at referees than 'fug off ye baldy bol**cks'.

[gormacha]

League of Ireland is an all male environment? You really should work on your own clubs attendance patterns if that is the case where you watch football.


Are you really going to nitpick with me to that extent? Everyone knows that males account for the overwhelming majority of supporters. Yes, there's some women, but how many? A few percent? In future I'll be careful to state it more accurately for you, even though you surely knew what I meant and that the point is beyond debate.

People in a minority, like women now, or black players in the past, rarely make complaints because they are afraid of the consequences. "She's trouble that one. Can't take a joke."

[gormacha]

nigel, yet again you haven't dealt with the substance of my argument - that things don't change until people's poor behaviour is challenged. The example of how attitudes to black players changed is not "sh1te" as you eloquently put it, but entirely relevant because it shows how challenging racism changed behaviour inside grounds.

Like racist abuse, sexist abuse is not a given. It could change if enough people said it was unacceptable. Clearly you're not one of them.

[askmehoop]

Clive Delaney
Jason Gavin

i wouldnt put them in the 'Mutant' category with Bob

[Charlie Darwin]

But you're not getting my point, it doesn't matter whether they SHOULD have to deal with it or not, because really they do have to deal with it, because like I keep saying, it's something that comes with being a referee, regardless of gender, size, or weight, it's part of the job of being a referee.
I'm not denying the reality that it happens or saying that this is the first instance. I was originally objecting to the fact you were applauding it, as if it's not a totally barbaric way for a section of the crowd to act.


I applaud you sticking up for common decency, and for the rights of others, but I'm simply saying, in reality, they have to deal with this sort of thing.

I'm not laughing because as you said "the crowd is picking on and belittling somebody based on their gender", I'm laughing because it was a funny joke. I've heard linesmen get worse abuse over the years, are you going to say to me now, "it's a disgrace they got that sort of abuse simply because they were a man." I think not.
And I'm not laughing because it wasn't funny. I'm sure there are plenty of women - there may even be some on this board - who will see it as banter and play along, but it shouldn't be a default position that any woman in football should be seen as fair game for this kind of neanderthal bull****.

And you can't flip this one. Linesmen don't get abused on the basis of their gender.

[Sonny]

And you can't flip this one. Linesmen don't get abused on the basis of their gender.

That's not true at all. Douglas' lesbianism is a frequent point of abuse!!

[El-Pietro]

i wouldnt put them in the 'Mutant' category with Bob
theres only one, Jason Gavin
theres only one, Jason Gavin
with a jet engine, and a cabin crew
Gavin is an aeroplane

more of a transformer ol Jason

[nigel-harps1954]

Okay, I give up. How's about I say sorry, and move on. Women are great.

[askmehoop]

Okay, I give up. How's about I say sorry, and move on. Women are great.

Great at doin the dishes, wha, wha

[bluewhitearmy]

1862...

[nigel-harps1954]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/38742_140863892598480_100000246107950_314541_40848 96_n.jpg

[osarusan]

And you can't flip this one. Linesmen don't get abused on the basis of their gender.


Of all the women who were in the ground at the time (be it a few dozen or a few hundred), how many others were abused? I'd go for none. Are you arguing that the fact that she was a match official had nothing to do the fact that she was getting abuse?
I think that to describe it as discrimination on the basis of their gender is to mis-represent the situation.

Match officials get abuse. If they're bald, they get abuse for that. If they're short, they get abuse for that. If they're women, they get abuse for that. It's all equally wrong.

[littlebray]

Clive Delaney
Jason Gavin

Eamon Zayed, In Newbridge, told to "go back where you came from": Sallynoggin!

[mypost]

You are the one singling out the woman in this whole thing, 'in a male dominated world'. I'm trying to state my point logically and simply for you, that whether or not it's acceptable, whether or not it should be there, there is abuse toward referees in this sport. Any person, male or female, wanting to be a referee should be prepared to deal with it as it is part of the job. Don't give me that whole '20 years ago' sh**e again because it is simply something that happens in football

Women are singled out in most walks of life. Sometimes it is an advantage, sometimes it isn't. As far as langugae goes, rough as it gets sometimes, we haven't quite gone down the Islamic route of banning them from the stadium yet.

They're in a minority in Irish football, mainly through choice. They choose GAA and rugby over football because it's a friendlier atmosphere, they can mix with whoever and whenever they like, not be herded into a segregated part of the ground with all sorts of fanatics, having to sit in allocated seats for 2-3 hours at a time, subjected to routine searches for a set of car keys outside it, and held back 15 minutes after the games. It can be a hostile environment sometimes, and understandably they don't like it.

[El-Pietro]

not be herded into a segregated part of the ground with all sorts of fanatics, having to sit in allocated seats for 2-3 hours at a time, subjected to routine searches for a set of car keys outside it, and held back 15 minutes after the games. It can be a hostile environment sometimes, and understandably they don't like it.

what games are you going to? allocated seats? you only get held back at away games, and even then not for too long, Tallaght and Tolka are grounds I can remember being held back in - dont think weve been held back anywhere else recently

[Macy]

They're in a minority in Irish football, mainly through choice. They choose GAA and rugby over football because it's a friendlier atmosphere, they can mix with whoever and whenever they like, not be herded into a segregated part of the ground with all sorts of fanatics, having to sit in allocated seats for 2-3 hours at a time, subjected to routine searches for a set of car keys outside it, and held back 15 minutes after the games. It can be a hostile environment sometimes, and understandably they don't like it.
Yeah, you can't get women to go football with you because of that...

[Ash]

To get somewhere back on track, its Rhona Daly (not Rhonda) and she is from Athlone.
Done the line in Lissywollen a few times and got a bit of abuse, not for being a woman but for some poor calls.

[marinobohs]

Are refs particularly known for their culinary skills?

I think abusing the ref/lino (be it he or she) is still referable to hitting him in the head with a bottle :rolleyes:

Unfortunately the chance to hurl abuse at some poor unfortunate is now as much part of the game as enjoying the football. More often than not it is good fun and adds to the atmosphere. On the occassions where it goes overboard the people around usually deal with it or report the matter to stewards.

Often wonder how much impact such abuse from the crowd would have on a player/official (if any). Dont believe for one second anyone fels "intimidated" by banter - however crude.

[nigel-harps1954]

I've thought about this further...in defence of men everywhere, this is all I can come up with.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzDK70zO-Eo

[Charlie Darwin]

I think abusing the ref/lino (be it he or she) is still referable to hitting him in the head with a bottle :rolleyes:

Unfortunately the chance to hurl abuse at some poor unfortunate is now as much part of the game as enjoying the football. More often than not it is good fun and adds to the atmosphere. On the occassions where it goes overboard the people around usually deal with it or report the matter to stewards.

Often wonder how much impact such abuse from the crowd would have on a player/official (if any). Dont believe for one second anyone fels "intimidated" by banter - however crude.
Perhaps not players but officials, totally. Have you never seen a referee swayed by a hostile crowd? A lot of chants in football are banter but many aren't, and even if it is banter it's not necessarily interpreted that way.


Of all the women who were in the ground at the time (be it a few dozen or a few hundred), how many others were abused? I'd go for none. Are you arguing that the fact that she was a match official had nothing to do the fact that she was getting abuse?
I think that to describe it as discrimination on the basis of their gender is to mis-represent the situation.

Match officials get abuse. If they're bald, they get abuse for that. If they're short, they get abuse for that. If they're women, they get abuse for that. It's all equally wrong.
No, obviously she was getting abuse because she was a match official, but the nature of the abuse was based on her gender. It's not just officials who get comments - I'd say a lot of us have seen female stewards get lewd comments too.

[sadloserkid]

I'd say a lot of us have seen female stewards get lewd comments too.

Let's not forget the physios. :)

[micls]

And at that game, he sent a Rovers player off. He gave it half an hour before deciding to even up the teams.

As for Kelly, I remember him reffing a Cork-Drogheda game in Cork in the Setanta Cup. Cork were struggling to hold on to a narrow lead so with 15 minutes left, he sent an away player off. He enjoyed it so much that he sent another one off 3 minutes later. Cork duly took advantage within minutes and won the game. Not too many complaints then.

So the players didn't deserve to be sent off? Which game was this, can't remember off the top of my head. What year?

There's complaints about Alan Kelly pretty much every time he refs ours games (although I'd imagine that's not unique to us). He has never shown any sort of favoritism in games I've been at and has regularly been accused of the opposite.

I don't think it matters a tap who refs tonight tbh unless he's gonna play in central mid for us.

I do think it would make more sense to avoid this situation though for the refs, clubs and the league

[gormacha]

I don't think it matters a tap who refs tonight tbh unless he's gonna play in central mid for us.

Arf! I think we have a winner for post of the day, and it only 9 o'clock and not a child in the house washed.

[gormacha]

I'm out of this debate after this*, but just wanted to say that although I'm not that surprised, there's still a bit of me finds it hard to believe that some people can't see how shouting unnecessary unpleasant things at women - by a bunch of men - is ok in any circumstances. I wuold have thought that our default position would be to assume they won't like it, rather than "they can take it"; or "they'll have to take it if they want to take part" or "they'd say something if it was bothering them" or whatever.

From The FCF on the nastier sort of "banter": http://thefcf.co.uk/2012/03/01/stop-banter/14866/

"“Banter” is increasingly being used as a cloak for the resurgence of all manner of irrational bile. Though briefly cowed by the “forces of political correctness”, that devastating and irrational conspiracy devoted to the heretical notion that perhaps it isn’t okay to be an unspeakable phuqwit to foreigners, women, gays, and anybody else that can be frantically found to answer for your own shuddering inadequacy..."

*Not true.

[osarusan]

No, obviously she was getting abuse because she was a match official, but the nature of the abuse was based on her gender.

So you've finally come round to my way of thinking:


I wasn't at the match, but I think it is far more likely that she was being shouted at because she was the referee. I'd guess that her gender influenced the kind of abuse she got, rather than being the sole reason she was getting abuse.

[A face]

So you've finally come round to my way of thinking:

So its ok to do it so, is that what you're saying?

[osarusan]

So its ok to do it so, is that what you're saying?

No A Face, that's not what I'm saying, and it's pathetic that you haven't bothered to read the thread before your ignorant post.

[gormacha]

I wasn't at the match, but I think it is far more likely that she was being shouted at because she was the referee. I'd guess that her gender influenced the kind of abuse she got, rather than being the sole reason she was getting abuse.

I don't see how that's relevant, even if its true, which I'm not conceding.

The point is that a woman, already in a tiny minority in the football environment she is in, is taking abuse based on her gender. Gendered abuse has a long history, so it carries a weight that the "normal" abuse meted out to men at football doesn't carry. Gendered abuse is not dissimilar to racist abuse in that sense. And the fact that some of the abuse aimed at women clearly has a sexual content makes it all the worse.

Your point seems to be "everyone gets abuse, and all forms of abuse are equally wrong". That's a point of view, but I don't agree. Some forms of abuse are worse than others.

[peadar1987]

Nice bit of impartial play by the linesman in Cork just there!

[dfx-]

Time to bet on a Cork penalty or Rovers red card...

..Woo!

[askmehoop]

that red card blew any suggestion of a Bias ref out of the water

[micls]

I thought he had a very good game apart from the sending off.

The sending off I'm not sure about, it certainly looked harsh from some of the replays, but they're were one or two angles where it looked very dangerous so I can see how the decision was made.

[nigel-harps1954]

How convenient that there was a female Linesperson in Athlone tonight...I gave her so much abuse just for being a woman. It was great craic.

[littlebray]

OMG! Criticism on the basis of decisions made?

Fans will always disagree with officials, rightly or (sometimes) wrongly.

Haranguing the officials for their decisions has been a tradition in football since referees were invented (referees in football are first described by Richard Mulcaster in 1581. In his description of "foteball" he advocates the use of a "judge over the parties").

His idea was so good it took nearly 300 years before it was implemented, for a match in 1842.

Fourth Officials are the only ones who (almost) never get taunts, jibes or sneers. If/when the end-linesmen are finally properly introduced, they too will be abused.

The only officials who will ever be immune will be the electronic review officials - the TV umpire/video Official, whatever they will call them, who are never seen.

Is Mark Gavin shorter than Martin Moloney - or is that an offensive question?

[peadar1987]

Fourth Officials are the only ones who (almost) never get taunts, jibes or sneers. If/when the end-linesmen are finally properly introduced, they too will be abused.


I was at the Europe League game between Stoke and Valencia, and the Danish official behind the goal was wearing full-length leggings under his shorts. I don't think the poor lad will ever be the same!

[nigel-harps1954]

Fourth Officials are the only ones who (almost) never get taunts, jibes or sneers. If/when the end-linesmen are finally properly introduced, they too will be abused.



Ever been to Finn Park?

[gormacha]

OMG! Criticism on the basis of decisions made?

No-one is talking about criticism of decisions. The Limerick physio wasn't making any decisions, that's for sure.

[dfx-]

Ever been to Finn Park?

Damien Hancock has got abuse as fourth official in Tallaght ever since his 'performance' in the last Sligo match..