LoI/GAA discussion

[marinobohs]

I think the point on club/county loyalty was referring to people's tendency to automatically attach themselves to their local club and county, rather than saying they have more dedicated followers than the LOI.

Suspect same would apply to many LOI fans Mr A. Most have local/family link to club we support. Less so in urban areas but again same would apply RE GAA clubs.

Maybe mixing us up with the glory hunting barstoolers that "support" EPL :rolleyes:

[Patrick Dunne]

LOI supporters are amongst the most loyal of any group in Ireland. I was referring to player loyalty. I suppose it is a two way street, clubs don't tend to stand by players.

Vast swathes of the country, whether we like it or not, are GAA heartland, with the Premiership on television at the weekend, and a bit of junior soccer for the craic, and to keep fit in winter. Large counties like Tipperary, Mayo, Kerry etc, have no League of Ireland "culture", where in Galway, Limerick, Waterford, there will generally be a few people in every village/town who go to the local LOI matches.

I am from a GAA background, in the rural parts of Galway there would be a mentality from some sports followers that Galway United are the "county soccer team" and that they should be supported on that basis. We live a lot closer to Athlone than Galway city, and Athlone Town were far more successful when I was younger - but I have yet to meet anyone in our general area who ever went to St Mels to support them.

Bear in mind that my team lost 34 matches this season, I am currently suffering an LOI "mid-life crisis" !

[marinobohs]

LOI supporters are amongst the most loyal of any group in Ireland. I was referring to player loyalty. I suppose it is a two way street, clubs don't tend to stand by players.

Vast swathes of the country, whether we like it or not, are GAA heartland, with the Premiership on television at the weekend, and a bit of junior soccer for the craic, and to keep fit in winter. Large counties like Tipperary, Mayo, Kerry etc, have no League of Ireland "culture", where in Galway, Limerick, Waterford, there will generally be a few people in every village/town who go to the local LOI matches.

I am from a GAA background, in the rural parts of Galway there would be a mentality from some sports followers that Galway United are the "county soccer team" and that they should be supported on that basis. We live a lot closer to Athlone than Galway city, and Athlone Town were far more successful when I was younger - but I have yet to meet anyone in our general area who ever went to St Mels to support them.

Bear in mind that my team lost 34 matches this season, I am currently suffering an LOI "mid-life crisis" !

GAA heartland ? would that be Tipp bogball or Kerry and Mayo hurling ? :o

No argument RE player loyalty to clubs (currently) but as I said that will erode in GAA with payment to players making them more mobile as in LOI. That legend of GAA Mick O'Dwyer has led the way already along with many other managers and I expect that trend to continue down to players.

Incidentially, I dont see this change as a good thing (for GAA) and was just pointing out that there is no point in suggesting LOI seek to replicate the model when it is on the way out in GAA. Once payment for players comes in there will be players moving for better pay. Probobly an aside but this is likely to accelerate as GAA can no longer line up jobs in banks/sales etc for players.

[Jinxy]

Soccer can indeed learn a lot from the GAA.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQblXFrzlnk

[Spudulika]

Ahh ya good man yourself.

Let it go kiddo, let it go. Don't get over or underwhelmed :-) or even whelmed.

[Spudulika]

There's an awful sense of what I've picked up in the less secure countries of nationhood in the discussion. No sport is better than another, all have their good points and the admin or organisation of one or another can always be learned from - good and bad points. I'm not sure if fitness in the GAA is totally uniform and good as was mentioned, though the dedication from players is phenomenal and at a full-time level. I greatly hope a day will never come that players get paid, better treated yes, but paid no. It will genuinely take something away from the energy and then we're looking at clubs going bang in a serious way. However, top down regulation has always been better laid out and this is definitely a point from which the FAI can learn lessons.

However the GAA and FAI (or FIFA) have similar failings - not moving with the times (if this can be understood). Using video replays is a long way from either and while UEFA adopted the umpire system (without the groovy white coats), video replays at the highest level remain a sticking point for both.

There is dedication to both bodies (GAA and FAI) in Ireland and following one doesn't preclude following the other, unless a person has serious hang ups (not being picked for a school team, being bullied by inbreds on an under-10's outing to Dunboyne, or getting a kicking against Newbridge Town) or feels insecure about their sports place in the greater scheme. There are so many examples of such nkobbish behaviour from both sides - I can't recall the clowns name (he was a top intercounty ref, from Kildare I think), but he was a referee who insisted on going ahead with his groups tee time at a golf classic fundraiser which clashed with the Romania 2nd round match in 1990 - his playing partners all wanted to watch it, but he insisted that since they were at a GAA club golf classic they shouldn't be watching a foreign sport. Obviously irony was lost on the man seeing as he was playing a Scottish sport instead. I'll leave it unbalanced as the pathetic stupidity of other such biased behaviour doesn't bear retelling.

(? can anyone remember the ref's name?)

[Rasputin]

Let it go kiddo, let it go. Don't get over or underwhelmed :-) or even whelmed.
Indeed.

[culloty82]

I'd largely agree with Spud that we shouldn't see the two sports as being in "competition" - after all in most communities nationwide, both codes will generally have a local team, and indeed largely drawing on the same pool of players, especially in rural areas, while most true sports fans will take an interest in both, and probably rugby to boot. The FAI has taken the biggest lesson from the GAA in making an integrated youth set-up a condition of licensing, and if following on from that, most LoI clubs decide to limit transfers and develop a local first-team squad, a la Athletic Bilbao, it can only be to the league's benefit. Aspects of GAA cultures can't be grafted automatically, but they are masters of fundraising ( Club Tyrone, annual dinner banquets, draws for squad holidays, etc).

[born2bwild]

I greatly hope a day will never come that players get paid, better treated yes, but paid no. It will genuinely take something away from the energy and then we're looking at clubs going bang in a serious way. However, top down regulation has always been better laid out and this is definitely a point from which the FAI can learn lessons.

I think GAA players are treated well enough, generally speaking: they're often sorted out off the field one way or another with doors opened into networks of employment and patronage that allow them to be professional athletes in all but name. It's understood that an inter-county player is not actually expected to show up in work for extended periods.
GAA players are devoted and loyal to their clubs and counties - and that is such a strength - but that devotion and loyalty is underwritten by, enabled by, how embedded the GAA is in the culture of rural, middle class Ireland. They're loyal and devoted because they can afford to be.

The LoI does not have the privileged position that the GAA has. LoI players have to work for a living - I think fans often forget that, for example, when players are criticised for being mercenaries. Unfortunately, the LoI cannot just copy the GAA in this respect.

Your point about schools is crucial. It would be difficult, perhaps in some cases, even a taboo, for the LoI to try to get involved in schools, precisely because any such project could very well be seen as an encroachment onto the GAA's turf; an attempt to tap into one of the networks of employment and patronage I mentioned above. For all that, I think the FAI should launch a full scale assault on schools - that's where the future is. (I probably shouldn't quote the Jesuits' "Give me the boy at 7..." maxim, but there, I've done it.)

You've made a good point about the FAI's failings in leading top-down reform and promotion of the LoI. Delaney is a great fella for the free pints, flying ties, vanity tournaments in the 'Aviva' and seven-figure salaries for Trap but it's all focused on the international team. If the GAA were to follow suit the hurling and GAA championships would get 1 hour a week on Monday night, patronisingly set to music on RTE2 and the international rules would be the centrepiece.

[Spudulika]

C82, I'd forgotten the fundraising part, though football clubs are good at this too, and it is a case of Club Tyrone being a version of the 400 club or GUST, Foras etc. It's something that football in Ireland has lacked, in general, is a nailed down home. It's far too easy (in the past especially) to condemn football clubs for being fly by night, not linked to a community or never building structures. All the usual wummers can blame closeness to politics or business that allowed the GAA and IRFU build locally, however this cannot be used as an excuse. Football clubs have been foresighted enough to develop their own facilities and gain a local identity - I played underage with 2 of the better ones (Verona and St. Mochtas) but others had a disconnect. Players moved from club to club for a few quid extra and there was no loyalty. This will diminish in the GAA if pay for play comes in.

Totally agree with fans crossing over, Munster has been the best example of this. 5 years ago at a Munster match in old Thomond I had a drink with one football/rugby journo and his IT counterpart, and with us were a GAA man from Clare and an out and out football man from Limerick. But that day they were Munster 100%. It'll never happen in LOI, but maybe some regions can be better than others.

Love to see a Bilbao scenario develop - but I've a feeling that will only come into play if the FAI enforce rules on something of this nature. They do it in other countries (but for foreigners or a need to play locally developed under 21's).

[Spudulika]

B2W, Primary schools might not be as off limits as you might think. Schools are desperate for activities and rugby showed this 10-11 years ago. Dundalk RFC did a great job in getting into GAA strongholds and while I think the IRFU blinked instead of keeping up the drive, it did take a couple of decent lads away from the GAA. I'd forgotten the Jesuit maxim, though it's true, get 'em young and keep them. Local football clubs are sometimes too busy just existing, LOI clubs the same (especially in the past) and the GAA just took advantage of this. I went to a school a stones throw from Dalyer and while it was GAA, basketball and water polo that were the staples, a football team was set up and was brilliant. Yet Bohs not once lent a hand or even showed interest - however Tolka Rovers donated a bag of footballs and 2 goalposts.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

As I commented before about the bitterness of a large section of LOI supporters. If it's not the EPL, it's the GAA's fault the LOI is a running joke that the general population care not a jot about.

Get a grip with the victim complex, seriously.

[marinobohs]

As I commented before about the bitterness of a large section of LOI supporters. If it's not the EPL, it's the GAA's fault the LOI is a running joke that the general population care not a jot about.

Get a grip with the victim complex, seriously.

Chillax there TA,the thread was about what (if anything) LOI can adopt from the more successfull GAA model - hardly the "B" word and actually a compliment on their superior organisation

Equally hardly a surprise a few sly digs are thrown their way, the same as GAA has always done to LOI (at least we didn't ban people)

[Spudulika]

MB, you just justified why people behave like idiots towards another sports code - because they perceive the same being done to them, which is the victim mentality. Hopefully the wummers and wallies will be bored of such nonsense (not putting you in either group) and TA is right in way to mention that the blame game is too easy to make. Reading Who Stole Our Game can rid anyone of such dunderheadedness, the LOI and Irish football loves doing a Maxi on itself more often than not.

But you know, I always held Bohs in high esteem for the work they were doing at grassroots (despite them not helping out when our school contacted them - Bohs were probably in the right) though in 2010 I was shocked when they seemed to walk away from youth development, has this changed? By walk away I mean they got rid of coaching staff and lost a number of young lads (I'd seen them play in the youth and A finals).

[marinobohs]

MB, you just justified why people behave like idiots towards another sports code - because they perceive the same being done to them, which is the victim mentality. Hopefully the wummers and wallies will be bored of such nonsense (not putting you in either group) and TA is right in way to mention that the blame game is too easy to make. Reading Who Stole Our Game can rid anyone of such dunderheadedness, the LOI and Irish football loves doing a Maxi on itself more often than not.

But you know, I always held Bohs in high esteem for the work they were doing at grassroots (despite them not helping out when our school contacted them - Bohs were probably in the right) though in 2010 I was shocked when they seemed to walk away from youth development, has this changed? By walk away I mean they got rid of coaching staff and lost a number of young lads (I'd seen them play in the youth and A finals).

Spud, I dont think this thread was a 'bitching' session about GAA and saw nothing in the thread anywhere near as abusive as your average GAA head or EPL 'fan' would say about LOI. Would you really expect people on here to be gushing about GAA given their behaviour towards LOI - Tallaght, RDS debacle, ban etc ? Not their (GAA) fault the LOI is a basket case but not like they ever did anything to help either. I saw nothing in the thread apart from healthy distain for GAA, certainly nobodywith a can of petrol.
:cool:
Bohs did have to curtail our schoolboy set up (on cost grounds) still maintaining a vibrant set up which we will be dependent on in coming seasons. Number of decent players progressed to first team last season (Forrester, Buckley,Traynor,Lopez etc) and given financial constraints some more will get an oppurtunity this season. Youth development one of the key areas our new manager has highlighted.

[Spudulika]

Point taken MB (on the GAA thing). I know you put some positives in the thread and can see both sides, which is the way it should be.

What I saw of the underage sides with Bohs was impressive. And when I heard that they were cost cutting (while I understood the rationale), the club needs the influx of young players. I'm really glad to hear that the youngsters aren't lost, Lopez, for one, I was impressed with the year before last and there is definitely successful future for Bohs if they can hang onto 2-3 players each season who break through. With a little luck and a couple of extra heads, the club will be more than able to compete for Europe.

[Straightstory]

The GAA's institutionalized brawling is very entertaining. Maybe we could introduce something like that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es2nH_HWoCo&feature=related

[Spudulika]

Nah, unless it involves waving an umbrella, dressing in Burberry and running at the first sight of a skelp, it won't work on the field. It's a great testament to the GAA that a row in an under-15 match (Division 2) up in Crossmolina can get the national media all het up, then nothing. I have a conspiratorial suspicion that it's part of an overall GAA plan to dominate the meeja year round.

[gormacha]

No argument RE player loyalty to clubs (currently) but as I said that will erode in GAA with payment to players making them more mobile as in LOI. That legend of GAA Mick O'Dwyer has led the way already along with many other managers and I expect that trend to continue down to players.

I think player payment in the GAA along the lines of what might be expected in any professionalised sport is highly unlikely. It happens with GAA managers because their are a finite number of managerial positions, thereby limiting the exposure of any county board to one salary/expenses. Even with a relatively short meaningful season, almost all counties could bear the burden of paying a manager.

If you expanded this to a squad of players though, it would immediately become impossible to sustain. There simply aren't enough meaningful games to generate the kind of income that would allow professionalisation. In hurling for example, there are only nine competitive counties. And any move to artificially expand the amount of games beyond the "back door system" wouldn't be tolerated.

Anyway, there is no hunger for professionalisation amomngst players. Even Kilkenny hurlers (who you would imagine would stand to gain more than most) are against it, as they understand the link between amateurism and identity as being key to GAA dominance. I think they'd like a tickle from the promotional monies, but this is different to professionalisation.

As for LoI learning from the GAA - Spud makes many really strong points. However, association football and GAA emerge from such different social and cultural milieu that is difficult to envisage any cross-learning. LoI is (semi)pro, GAA is not. LoI is (mainly) urban, GAA is (mainly) rural. LoI is (mainly) working class, GAA crosses class boundaries much more. LoI is not linked to religion, GAA is. LoI does not draw on cultural and social elites, GAA can and does. LoI is not the sport of the ruling classes, GAA is. The depth of difference on all these and more is such that, as much as I - for example - envy the strength of identity that GAA clubs enjoy with players, LoI clubs can never reproduce this. Nor could the GAA, for example, ever sustain a forty or fifty game season that would engage their supporters, even if they were winning, let alone having a tough season.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

Chillax there TA,the thread was about what (if anything) LOI can adopt from the more successfull GAA model - hardly the "B" word and actually a compliment on their superior organisation

Equally hardly a surprise a few sly digs are thrown their way, the same as GAA has always done to LOI (at least we didn't ban people)

Oh yeah and soccer people don't throw digs in on the GAA? You on many soccer forums, the bitterness drips out of LOI people when it comes to the GAA. I put it down to jealousy.

I support both sports and couldn't care less about other sports. Good luck to them all, it's just sport at the end of the day. In terms of brawling in GAA games, it's a mans game. Some hits you, you hit them back. I should know; I'm presently suspended for it:D

[nigel-harps1954]

Oh yeah and soccer people don't throw digs in on the GAA? You on many soccer forums, the bitterness drips out of LOI people when it comes to the GAA. I put it down to jealousy.

I support both sports and couldn't care less about other sports. Good luck to them all, it's just sport at the end of the day. In terms of brawling in GAA games, it's a mans game. Some hits you, you hit them back. I should know; I'm presently suspended for it:D

I would imagine the only way anyone would have reason to be jealous of the GAA is the amount of money being literally thrown at them. Massive stadia, massive crowds, massive merchandise sales, but it's all thrown at them. Nazi Propaganda I tells ya.

If the LOI had the same media exposure and public pressure and government money thrown at it, I'd have no doubt we'd be a top European League.

[Spudulika]

I would imagine the only way anyone would have reason to be jealous of the GAA is the amount of money being literally thrown at them. Massive stadia, massive crowds, massive merchandise sales, but it's all thrown at them. Nazi Propaganda I tells ya.

If the LOI had the same media exposure and public pressure and government money thrown at it, we'd have no League.

Fixed that for you:p

Gormacha your final paragraph put the situation down as it should be. One little difference I could offer is that the LOI has grown a little beyond a working class base, just in the sense that younger supporters now would be better educated/off than their grandparents etc.

TA, I'd hesitate saying jealousy, I'd just put it down to having no faith in one's own product or belief. Put it this way, Croats spend their time saying how great they are and their country is, while slagging off everyone else for their problems and having endless theories of why they aren't all wealthy and happy (the EU situation is a prime example) - without a defined self-belief this happens. I think the LOI is great, with some great people involved and a worthy product, plus it brings people together and gives hope (or despair if you follow Dundalk). GAA is the same, it gives purpose to people's lives. Without both Ireland would be a lesser place.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

If the LOI had the same media exposure and public pressure and government money thrown at it, I'd have no doubt we'd be a top European League.

The GAA turned over €58 million in their last annual accounts, €67 million before that, they do alright all by themselves.

The general populations, unfortunately, don't care about the LOI. So why should the media give it the same exposure. Does the LOI sell newspapers and get people watching TV like the GAA does. No it doesn't. Ultimately the written and TV media are out to make money so they give exposure on those they're likely to get a return on. It's nothing personal.

[nigel-harps1954]

I think the point is, the GAA has it's long history of being in the public eye, everyone loves the GAA, it gets 99 of the 100 pages in a newspaper dedicated to it. It gets all the TV coverage, all the radio coverage, and is praised in every corner.

The LOI is quite the opposite. A long history of neglect, newspaper clippings, is cursed in all corners, and lives in the shadow of EPL and the old firm.

It's very simple really. If the LOI had the same exposure as the GAA there would be no problem.

[Spudulika]

Nigel, you're right in all ways, but what IF the LOI had the same exposure as the GAA? It would mean increasing the number of teams in the league - actually it would mean increasing the number of leagues. It would mean engaging the local community in order to create a brand, a feeling. It would mean, well, lots of things that the LOI cannot do on it's own, that can only come from integration and agreement between the FAI and all clubs in the country (not just LOI). The easy comparison is this:

The NHL and NFL are often forgotten and get less coverage than the sky leagues over the water over the winter, the real deal is the All-Ireland Championships, and Club Championships. So it's a better comparison between the Leagues and LOI. It would be interesting to see if the LOI and National Leagues get equal exposure. Overall, football in Ireland gets good coverage - with supplements in daily papers, write ups, when the International team play etc. So let's be realistic - we're looking at the LOI as a part of football in Ireland, it's not the FAI and be all and end all of domestic football.

[bennocelt]

I support both sports and couldn't care less about other sports. Good luck to them all, it's just sport at the end of the day. In terms of brawling in GAA games, it's a mans game. Some hits you, you hit them back. I should know; I'm presently suspended for it:D

get over, all that falling around and hugging in their tight shorts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTog_cbfH-g
and then we have this creep,lol
1833

[Rasputin]

I support both sports and couldn't care less about other sports. Good luck to them all, it's just sport at the end of the day. In terms of brawling in GAA games, it's a mans game. Some hits you, you hit them back. I should know; I'm presently suspended for it:D
Haha wow, on so many levels.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

I think the point is, the GAA has it's long history of being in the public eye, everyone loves the GAA, it gets 99 of the 100 pages in a newspaper dedicated to it. It gets all the TV coverage, all the radio coverage, and is praised in every corner.

The LOI is quite the opposite. A long history of neglect, newspaper clippings, is cursed in all corners, and lives in the shadow of EPL and the old firm.

It's very simple really. If the LOI had the same exposure as the GAA there would be no problem.

Again, it's always someone else's fault. There's a reason why it doesn't get the coverage it does; the public don't care enough. As on other threads as I've always said the reason the LOI is what it's become is down to the footy supporting community in Ireland, end of. The LOI probably gets more coverage than the pitiful crowds deserve so if anything it's over exposed for the crowds it gets.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

Haha wow, on so many levels.

Bust the inside of my lip with an elbow he's lucky it was only a boot I gave him!

[Macy]

I really don't think the thread is bitter. The majority of the thread is about what or whether the LoI could learn from the GAA. Pointing out faults of the GAA approach isn't necessarily bitterness. For example, I couldn't care less that some clubs are playing players in the GAA, but it's relevant if posters are saying the ethos of the GAA is something we should be copying.

For an organisation that is, or claims to be, so dominant the ultra defensive about any criticism is a bit surprising to be honest.

[culloty82]

I think the point is, the GAA has it's long history of being in the public eye, everyone loves the GAA, it gets 99 of the 100 pages in a newspaper dedicated to it. It gets all the TV coverage, all the radio coverage, and is praised in every corner.

The LOI is quite the opposite. A long history of neglect, newspaper clippings, is cursed in all corners, and lives in the shadow of EPL and the old firm.

It's very simple really. If the LOI had the same exposure as the GAA there would be no problem.

Perhaps then the key is for the LoI clubs to concentrate heavily on the local media, who are more likely in any case to be sympathetic, with any extra national attention coming as a bonus. Even in Kerry for instance, both weekly papers will give over four pages to the sport between schoolboys soccer, the KDL and Dynamos and Radio Kerry giving regular updates on all the above, and while they'd still give precedence to district GAA competitions, soccer definitely gets its fair share of coverage. Another thing might be to do regular visits to local primary and secondary schools just for name recognition, motivate kids already interested in the sport.

[Jinxy]

Bust the inside of my lip with an elbow he's lucky it was only a boot I gave him!

I hope you threw your jersey at the ref when you got the line.

[BonnieShels]

Nigel, you're right in all ways, but what IF the LOI had the same exposure as the GAA? It would mean increasing the number of teams in the league - actually it would mean increasing the number of leagues. It would mean engaging the local community in order to create a brand, a feeling. It would mean, well, lots of things that the LOI cannot do on it's own, that can only come from integration and agreement between the FAI and all clubs in the country (not just LOI). The easy comparison is this:

The NHL and NFL are often forgotten and get less coverage than the sky leagues over the water over the winter, the real deal is the All-Ireland Championships, and Club Championships. So it's a better comparison between the Leagues and LOI. It would be interesting to see if the LOI and National Leagues get equal exposure. Overall, football in Ireland gets good coverage - with supplements in daily papers, write ups, when the International team play etc. So let's be realistic - we're looking at the LOI as a part of football in Ireland, it's not the FAI and be all and end all of domestic football.

When I read that I was agog at your surprise! :) I mean the coverage the Habs and the Leafs get here is shocking and as regards the ignorance of the Tim Tebow and Tom Brady clash this weekend... well I never!!!

Anyway back to your point about the Allianz leagues not getting much coverage. I would have to say I would beg to differ.

The league now, in importance, is a different animal to where it was 10 years ago. Inter-county teams are using it as a base to launch their summer and not just to blood a squad and not give a toss. The popularity of the leagues has increased as a result.
The games are better. They have a value that wasn't their before. Why did this happen? A clever repackaging of the product by the GAA.

Moving games to double-headers for example, with the hurling team or in our case this year with local sides so the opening weekend in the league in Croke Park you have 2 whopper games with Dublin v Kerry and Kildare v Tyrone. Or using a previous clash the season before that stuck out to launch the league.
This puts the league into the hearts and minds of people and gets it out there to the extent that with some of the fixtures in Division One and Division Two you have week after week of cracking match-ups.

The key to the LOI learning from the GAA is getting what "packaging" means. The facilities aren't as good I agree but don't sell them to the public.
Sell the good aspects of what the league has to offer now. Attempt to make events out of the fixture lists. Be consistent in arranging games. Eventually it will come good but the work has to be put into the presentation of what we have already and not in the pie in the sky notions of building stadia because that's what will get people in the gates.

We have a great sporting rivalry in the league between Bohs and Shams for example why not use that as a springboard. Let's create traditional games every year on the same date. Let's have situations where people say "Oh yeah, the August Bank Holiday* weekend, It's FAI Cup weekend"

This isn't the golden bullet but it is a tried and tested aspect of a lot of sports leagues around the world that works.

*as an example

[gormacha]

Again, it's always someone else's fault. There's a reason why it doesn't get the coverage it does; the public don't care enough.

I actually agree with this, even though I have no love of the GAA, and LoI is my passion. I do think we are consistently missing the point about why that is the case though. The GAA is enmeshed in the national identity in a way that football and the LoI will never be. If you consider the role of the GAA in the cultural nationalism of the late 19th century, and its role in shoring up a fractured Ireland after the civil war, it holds a place where it is above and beyond a mere sport - it symbolically represents Irishness. That's why my mum will watch the Waterford hurlers each summer, but couldn't name a player beyond Dan Shanahan ("he's retired mum"). And even though I and my sons go to see about 25 Waterford United games a year, she doesn't even ask what the score was when she meets us.

Asking whether TV coverage or whatever is at the root of poor LoI attendances is somewhat missing the point. Poor TV coverage (or whatever) is a reflection of where LoI stands in the national imagination, not a cause of where it stands. And that, frankly, is nowhere.

I don't care though. I prefer being part of this tribe rather than that one.

[Charlie Darwin]

Perhaps it's a fair reflection of the irrelevance of the LOI, but at the same time GAA and schools rugby games with 10 people in attendance manage to get full match reports in the papers. Sometimes I think the only reason LOI gets any coverage in the news is because there are a few proper football journalists fighting for it.

[Jinxy]

Don't get me started on schools rugby!

[gormacha]

Perhaps it's a fair reflection of the irrelevance of the LOI, but at the same time GAA and schools rugby games with 10 people in attendance manage to get full match reports in the papers. Sometimes I think the only reason LOI gets any coverage in the news is because there are a few proper football journalists fighting for it.

I know of no other sport worldwide that is so deeply engrained in a national identity. The GAA played a key role in independence (and still plays a key role in a similar vein in the north of Ireland), and as a result it will always (or at least as long as there is a notion of national identity) hold a place in Ireland that LoI never will. I can't think of any other sporting organisations worldwide that played a role like that in a political revolution, or in nation-building, and that is unique to that country. The GAA, like it or loathe it, is a phenomenon.

As for the reporting of schools rugby etc.. grrrrr. That makes me furious. That is simply a reflection of reporters and/or editors reporting on their alma maters. I was born in NW England of working class Irish parents, and was brought up playing football and cricket. When we moved back to Ireland, I played cricket at college. We played a match in Dublin against Trinity (this was back in 1989, before intervarisities cricket became a relatively big deal, with proper tournaments and stuff) and to my disbelief a full report was in the Irish Times the next day. There were six (six - count 'em) people watching the match.

I think the Star is perhaps the only paper with an editorial commitment to the LoI. The rest, as you say, is probably down to committed journalists. Thank God for extratime.ie Those boys and girls do a fantastic job.

[Charlie Darwin]

The Mirror and the Sun are decent too. But as you implied, there's a pretty obvious class division.

[Eminence Grise]

The GAA are far more creative when it comes to promoting themselves, and playing the old corporate social responsibility card that goes down well at local level. This is in today’s Irish Times:

‘THE GAA has pledged to provide up to 200 internships through the Government’s JobBridge initiative.
‘The association said it was initially offering 126 such posts through its JobBridge internship scheme, with 13 people already engaged with the initiative and more vacancies planned.’ (The rest is at http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0113/1224310196490.html)

I’d be pretty confident there are a lot of young marketing and management/administration graduates who would give their eye teeth to get work experience in an LoI club, or with the FAI. A marketing and admin assistant at each club is (guessing two divisions of 12) 48 ‘jobs’. And then there’s the regional and national structure of the FAI. Maybe it’s not feasible and the FAI have already discounted it, but what’s the betting it never crossed their minds? I posted in another thread that there is a dearth of creative thinking in the LoI; the GAA, though, seem to be able to adapt to every new circumstance and use it to their advantage. That's what has helped them to become deeply embedded in the national consciousness .

[Charlie Darwin]

Don't even talk to me about JobBridge. Utter exploitation the LOI would do well to steer clear of. Offering opportunities to qualified fans would be a different matter though.

edit: to make it clear, internships are useful when there are experienced professionals who can help the intern progress to a proper job. League of Ireland clubs don't have these people, and I suspect the GAA doesn't have close to 200 experienced heads to do it either.

[Spudulika]

This goes back to something I mentioned earlier and I'm still puzzled as to the actual person who said it (Giles or Dunphy maybe) - the make up of the admin of the different sports and those they serve. LOI is regarded as fly by night and marginal, it takes real effort to move from this. There is a more educated following in the LOI now than a generation or 2 before (if we're talking about movement from a working to middle class group), though the thinking remains the same. The divisions between areas of football are too great and I always sense a lack of willingness to engage with progress.

BS, you're completely right about the packaging of the NL (I won't shock you again), Dublin have made great waves in this, though other counties are doing a good job. If the LOI can aspire to this, then it can only be a good thing.

[Eminence Grise]

I agree on the need for proper direction, so the interns can really learn on the job. But, as you say, Charlie, fans with qualifications (and maybe prior involvement) could be OK, and wouldn't be exploited. The bigger point, though, is that regardless of whether the scheme is good or not (and I'm very sceptical about it) the GAA were able to show themselves as an organisation that 'understands' social concerns that affect them. No guessing that a lot of their interns will be intercounty players just out of college, who would otherwise be destined for London or Ameri-cay.

[MariborKev]

Anyone who can't see that the LOI can learn things from the GAA is as bad as the lads who came up with the "ban" and all those who continued to vote for it.

The LOI should be looking at non-leagues in the UK, GAA, cricket, club rugby. Anywhere.

Can we import a GAA "model" and impose it on an LOI club? No.

However can we look at methods of the way the GAA works in areas such as
- Local media
- Member engagement
- Involvement with schools/underage
- Merchandise

[TiocfaidhArmani]

Perhaps it's a fair reflection of the irrelevance of the LOI, but at the same time GAA and schools rugby games with 10 people in attendance manage to get full match reports in the papers. Sometimes I think the only reason LOI gets any coverage in the news is because there are a few proper football journalists fighting for it.


You not see the same with soccer? Come on now, you see it in Herald the time big match reports from local games with nobody there! Absolute nobody teams with a nearly full page match report!

[culloty82]

The LOI should be looking at non-leagues in the UK, GAA, cricket, club rugby. Anywhere.


Interesting you should mention that, because League Two/Conference clubs seem to have broadly the same attendance levels, financial difficulties, clubs winding up etc, even though they've substantially less competition from other sports. The provincial rugby teams would also be worth studying, 15 years ago they were only playing each other in front of tiny crowds, but they got much greater backing from the IRFU than the FAI gives League of Ireland clubs.

[marinobohs]

Oh yeah and soccer people don't throw digs in on the GAA? You on many soccer forums, the bitterness drips out of LOI people when it comes to the GAA. I put it down to jealousy.

I support both sports and couldn't care less about other sports. Good luck to them all, it's just sport at the end of the day. In terms of brawling in GAA games, it's a mans game. Some hits you, you hit them back. I should know; I'm presently suspended for it:D

TA to what do you put down the anti fooltball bitterness so prevalent among GAA ? Jealousy, or their bitterness "different" ?

I have no problem with either code and although have a preference for football I have been to Croker and Parnell Park on many occassions (and occassionally further afield). I would have no problem accepting the LOI is a basketcase and often its own worst enemy but similarly I have no problem saying the GAA is/was a sectarian, insular sport with little or no tolerence of other sports. The evidence for both statements is pretty conclusive.

[Mr A]

Anyone who can't see that the LOI can learn things from the GAA is as bad as the lads who came up with the "ban" and all those who continued to vote for it.

The LOI should be looking at non-leagues in the UK, GAA, cricket, club rugby. Anywhere.

Can we import a GAA "model" and impose it on an LOI club? No.

However can we look at methods of the way the GAA works in areas such as
- Local media
- Member engagement
- Involvement with schools/underage
- Merchandise

Agreed on all of this. One thing that is often overlooked is how much LOI clubs can learn from each other. I've attended a few meetings for Harps on the marketing side of things and just getting together with people from other clubs is great- the level of knowledge, passion and hard won experience is incredible. I'd love to see more gatherings of the clubs where they get together to see what they can learn from one another. Obviously there may be a reluctance to help out rivals- but in my experience everyone can learn something so everybody wins. Certainly I found when working on Harps' strategic review that LOI clubs can be cagey (or just too busy to help out) but interestingly the Irish League clubs were incredibly open and helpful. The feeling of 'football family' seems to be stronger up there (although of course my sample wasn't massive so maybe it was skewed). The FAI would do well to facilitate more opportunities for clubs to showcase what they're doing in various areas to each other and let the lessons and ideas from around the league flow freely.

[Charlie Darwin]

You not see the same with soccer? Come on now, you see it in Herald the time big match reports from local games with nobody there! Absolute nobody teams with a nearly full page match report!
Er, like between who? I don't see papers reporting on Salthill Devon or Monaghan.

[marinobohs]

Er, like between who? I don't see papers reporting on Salthill Devon or Monaghan.

CD presume he means the Herald junior supplement (Tuesday nights ?). Always laugh to see the AIL rugby games RTE foist on us with crowds that would embarrass any LOI club and the camera fogging up due to lack of shelter from the rain (Facilities my ass)

Little doubt LOI the poor relation in media - often our own fault. When the Irish Times brings out a supplement for schoolboy soccer (as for rugby) we will have a level playing field (media wise).

Agree fully with Mr A post above. Sport we can learn most from is football (each other) many excellent club initiatives out there that could be used/tailored for clubs elsewhere. Some forum possibly run through FAI for discussion might be helpfull and would help bridge divides. The one area I feel we can most learn from other sports in the unity of approach adopted by GAA, IRFU etc in promoting their sports compared to the lack of interaction between LOI and FAI

[gormacha]

You not see the same with soccer? Come on now, you see it in Herald the time big match reports from local games with nobody there! Absolute nobody teams with a nearly full page match report!

There is a world of a difference between the football reports in the Herald (which is, after all, only a local paper) and the Irish Times turning over full pages to reporting on u16 rugby matches.

With respect, you seem awfully defensive about the GAA, in the same way some posters are being very defensive about football. (not "soccer", you'll note.) Most of these observations about the GAA and LoI are uncontentious to anyone trying to be some bit objective.