GUST apply for first division licence

[Dodge]

Cork received no footballing punishment. They folded.

The new club applied for a license and received a first division one, and then bought the rights to the old club

EXACTLY the same deal that GUST are looking for

[Charlie Darwin]

But I'm not bankrupt. I Just change my name and claim I've just been born. I can now go and buy another house whilst you are still in debt and paying legacy house prices. I then buy my old name and life back in a years time.

This does not happen in the real world does it?
I get you - the metaphor doesn't extend that far because Galway spent the money on salaries for players rather than on property. If they'd used the money to buy Terryland, it would be repossessed and sold, so they'd still have nothing. The general point I was making is that Galway have nothing to show for their years of borrowing and spending. All it's done is make them a far smaller club than they would have been had they plotted a sustainable course.


But would it be fair he got to keep his big house with the debt wiped off and you still pay for yours?
It was a limited metaphor - I didn't mean for it to be dragged out this far! My basic point was that it's not a "reward." They've gained absolutely nothing from their decision to borrow too much money.


McDonnell's a Dundalk man, and to be fair, the vast majority of the Irish media were generous in their praise for ROvers great achievments. One columnist in the indo, aside
One part-owner of Shamrock Rovers no less! Who seems to have finally decided he's going to go back to supporting his hometown club again.

[geezer]

in their wisdom the directors who held that licence up to 31st of december 2011 just havent aplied for a licence to play LOI for 2012, The community spearheaded by gust is trying apply to have a licence given to the community. 1. so a club representing the city and county continues and is what the majority want and 2. To sop Terryland which cost 3million to develop becoming a ghost venue

[Louth4sam]

The general point I was making is that Galway have nothing to show for their years of borrowing and spending. All it's done is make them a far smaller club than they would have been had they plotted a sustainable course.


But neither have Bray. It's quite possible that a club called Galway United with the same crest, history etc could be in the premier league in two seasons debt free in a far stronger position than a club like Bray that is honouring it's debt.

The problem isn't a new club forming it's claiming they are the same club as the previous one that folded.

[Charlie Darwin]

But neither have Bray. It's quite possible that a club called Galway United with the same crest, history etc could be in the premier league in two seasons debt free in a far stronger position than a club like Bray that is honouring it's debt.

The problem isn't a new club forming it's claiming they are the same club as the previous one that folded.
Do Bray own or lease the Carlisle Grounds? I don't know. Either way, they have Premier League status to show for their prudence, although a club that small would never have been able to borrow on the scale that Galway did anyway. If they could have, maybe they would have, but we'll never know.

[Dodge]

Bit harsh to suggest the only thing stopping Bray from being in massive debt is their size in fairness.

[Dodge]

in their wisdom the directors who held that licence up to 31st of december 2011 just havent aplied for a licence to play LOI for 2012, The community spearheaded by gust is trying apply to have a licence given to the community. 1. so a club representing the city and county continues and is what the majority want and 2. To sop Terryland which cost 3million to develop becoming a ghost venue

Have you plans to call the team Galway United or will you market the club as a new club?

[marinobohs]

McDonnell's a Dundalk man, and to be fair, the vast majority of the Irish media were generous in their praise for ROvers great achievments. One columnist in the indo, aside

....presumably only that Hoop cheerleader in the Herald should be allowed write about LOI now :rolleyes:

Little will change on the issue of clubs going bankrupt unless the FAI impose strong deterents/penalties. Managers, fans and boards (fans or private directors) will always push "to take the next step up" (blind, usually unfounded, optimism or not). More often than not, as we have seen, this ends in tears but until there is more serious sanction than 1/2 years in the 1st Division it will continue.

The FAI have to be more proactive (bearing in mind the difficulties Galway had getting a licence surely there should have been regular checks ? ) to maintain what remains of the LOI credibility.

[Macy]

I really don't see the issue with what GUST are doing. They, wrongly in the circumstances in my opinion, tried to save the club for over a year and could see it wasn't sustainable. My issue is the ease at which the "new" clubs suddenly take on the name and history of the "old" club. This may or may not happen with Galway United.

Equating criticism of this approach with a general attitude to failure is a load of crap. Companies do have a route out of failure, called examinership, as several clubs have shown in recent years. However, for companies (and therefore clubs) with assets (grounds) it isn't as attractive, so they have no choice but to pay debts.

[passerrby]

Interesting thread but the bottom line for me is that Galway must receive a sanction from the league for **** management and changing the owners/directors should not in any way let that sanction pass

[Charlie Darwin]

Is there a precedent for docking points for this kind of situation? In the world, I mean. That could be an appropriate deterrent - more so than denying the club a license at least.

[derm]

You make it sound like what ye did was honourable.

Technically ye were relegated that year, because everyone got bunked up one place when ye were discounted.


Cork received no footballing punishment. They folded.

The new club applied for a license and received a first division one, and then bought the rights to the old club

EXACTLY the same deal that GUST are looking for

Not quite. FORAS applied for an A-division licence as a fall-back position when it looked obvious that TNB was going to run the club into the ground. The FAI encouraged them to upgrade to a first division licence. FORAS found backers / new owners and attempted to buy the club from TNB including the debt. Many members argued for starting a new fully-owned, fan-run debt-free club but the majority felt it was unfair on the creditors and voted to save the club with a minority ownership stake. However TNB played hardball and by the time the deal was concluded the FAI told them there was no time to get what was required to apply for a prem licence.

The backers were only interested in a premier division club so CCFC was essentially wound up. Every effort was made to do the "honourable" thing but in the end it just wasn't feasible. The stated aim of FORAS is to ensure the survival of Cork City FC which is why the rights were bought asap. It wasn't the preferred option, it was the only one left.

I'm unsure of all of the details of GUST and GUFC so I can't comment on whether or not the honourable thing is being done in this case.

[Louth4sam]

Interesting thread but the bottom line for me is that Galway must receive a sanction from the league for **** management and changing the owners/directors should not in any way let that sanction pass

Sanction whom, Galway United who no longer play football or GUST FC who claim to be a new club?

[bluewhitearmy]

Is there a precedent for docking points for this kind of situation? In the world, I mean. That could be an appropriate deterrent - more so than denying the club a license at least.

Could do what they did to Leeds when they went into administration when they had already been relegated and dock em 15 points the next season.

[Louth4sam]

Is there a precedent for docking points for this kind of situation? In the world, I mean. That could be an appropriate deterrent - more so than denying the club a license at least.

If a club is already in the first division or safe in the premier division. Dropping a few points for the sake of a few hundred thousand Euro couldn't be called an appropriate deterrent.

[Dodge]

Is there a precedent for docking points for this kind of situation? In the world, I mean. That could be an appropriate deterrent - more so than denying the club a license at least.

You can't dock a new club points.

[Mr A]

Then maybe the deduction should come at the point where new entities acquire the previous one's history.

[Louth4sam]

Then maybe the deduction should come at the point where new entities acquire the previous one's history.

I really don't think that is much of a deterrent either. If Cork got a point deduction the season they bought the history, crest etc it wouldn't have made much difference as they were not going to get promoted anyway.

If a new entity wants to acquire the previous ones's history it should also acquire it's debts by default.

[daithifla]

GUST done everything in its power to continue on under GUFC. If we were planning this all along we would have had our license application in long ago. We were left with no alternative but to apply for a license as GUST FC in order to make sure that Galway city and county had a team to support for 2012 season. We are not running away from the debt. We are going to honour the debt we accurred last season when running GUFC. We don't have to do this but we feel that we ran up the debt and we are morally obligued to do this. That debt is small. The bank debts are director guaranteed and that company has not folded and the directors are not running away from this either we hear. Until that company goes out of business all creditors can still be paid. A license application was lodged under GUFC and the directors decided to withdraw this application.

[passerrby]

Simple Louth if a new entity is looking to carry on the franchise then they must take a sanction if it's a whole new club then they must come from the lower leagues and not from a reconstructed management . This is not meant as a dig a Galway but the league as a whole

[Spudulika]

1. Mr. McDonnell is a Dundalk fan, even if he's from the suburbs of Ardee. The writer in the Herald, Mr. Fitzmaurice, is a Bohs fan, no harm to it. There's no problem with reporters following a local club, I'd rather they did that (like writers in the Star, Mirror, Sun etc) than be bull merchants whose heads are floated only by the sky leagues.
2. I'm confused with GUST, are they going to start a completely new club full on (Galway City or County or Twee's Rovers or some such) or do a kind of sly way of nabbing a name as others currently in the league have done?
3. I've no problem with clubs going under if they overstretch, though there is a rule in place in some European countries (I'm going to find the exact section here in Russia) where they cannot re-enter in any form from the city/region in the same division as the next team from there - for example Saturn Ramenskoye are now playing under the licence of their reserve team Saturn-2 (2nd Division West). The system is too messed up in Ireland for anyone with half a head to back a club and develop it.

[Patrick Dunne]

There should a lot stronger licencing criteria re debt, unsecured borrowings, ownership of grounds, etc. If the debt of any club exceeds one years turnover, then alarm bells should be ringing. Stricter

Lets face it, some clubs will never be able to properly police and regulate themselves, like Galway United from 2008-2010. In hindsight, GUST should have pulled the plug on support for GUFC during this period.

It is very difficult for any supporters group to say "We are going to walk away from the club we love, and let it fold".

[Charlie Darwin]

Simple Louth if a new entity is looking to carry on the franchise then they must take a sanction if it's a whole new club then they must come from the lower leagues and not from a reconstructed management . This is not meant as a dig a Galway but the league as a whole
There are no lower leagues! Division One is the lower league.

[gufcfan]

To walk away from that, practically untouched in some cases, clearly isn't fair on clubs who have stuggled to pay their way and suffered on the field.
GUST did not really walk away. The club was well past the point collapsing was inevitable. Leeson was pushing to be repaid money he had the cheek to claim he didn't pay himself. There just was no way Galway United FC would be given a license. The club may have applied for a license, but they would never have been given one. Their statement that strongly suggested GUST dropped them in it was absolute BS.

[passerrby]

There are no lower leagues! Division One is the lower league.

so where did salthill and mervue play before they joined the LOI and A Champoinship

[gufcfan]

In recent times you have Rovers, Cork, Derry, Drogs and now Galway who will likely get rewarded for not living within their means. Why should other clubs play by the rules.
Disgraceful comment.

We have not been rewarded. We have been left helpless for years while our club has been slowly disgraced and destroyed. Any bridges we had with anybody were burnt to cinders.

The longer the whole thing went on, perhaps the more it dawned on the supporters that running a football club isn't the preserve of suits who actually do very little of the work involved, but have all the power to screw it up royally.

We never had any sort of say in the club, but seeing it go out of business was always the absolute last thing we wanted to see. We don't even know if GUST will be admitted into the league. It wasn't some big clever plan. God knows what the licensing committee will do if leaned on by their masters.

[Charlie Darwin]

so where did salthill and mervue play before they joined the LOI and A Champoinship
A completely different league system with no promotion to the League of Ireland.

[Louth4sam]

Disgraceful comment.

We have not been rewarded. We have been left helpless for years while our club has been slowly disgraced and destroyed. Any bridges we had with anybody were burnt to cinders.

The longer the whole thing went on, perhaps the more it dawned on the supporters that running a football club isn't the preserve of suits who actually do very little of the work involved, but have all the power to screw it up royally.

We never had any sort of say in the club, but seeing it go out of business was always the absolute last thing we wanted to see. We don't even know if GUST will be admitted into the league. It wasn't some big clever plan. God knows what the licensing committee will do if leaned on by their masters.

A simple yes or no question for you. Will GUST try and buy back Galway United's name, history etc. at a future date?

[gufcfan]

A simple yes or no question for you. Will GUST try and buy back Galway United's name, history etc. at a future date?
I can't give you that answer. I'm not involved. As far as I'm concerned, the fans are the "owners" of the club and what the club achieved in the past will always be the property of the fans. It wouldn't surprise me if they did buy it back, but there are so many more important things to worry about before then. Get a licence, get a team signed, start building a club from scratch, build youth structures, keep building the reputation of GUST among (what's left of) the business community in Galway.

[galwayhoop]

Simple Louth if a new entity is looking to carry on the franchise then they must take a sanction if it's a whole new club then they must come from the lower leagues and not from a reconstructed management . This is not meant as a dig a Galway but the league as a whole
I think you are right here PB.

Companies going under (as will inevitably happen with GUFC Ltd.) happens all the time in society, more so recently. Liquidation, examinership, receivership all happen day on day out. It is the main reason for setting up a company in the first place, protection.

Football, here anyway, is slightly different though as the name generally lives on following insolvency. Under company law the company debt is dealt with at the time the company enters examinership and/or goes under. I.e the debts die with the company, excluding personally guaranteed debt (the vast portion of debt Galway United FC ltd have is personally guaranteed by the directors of the company btw).

Anyway long story short, the FAI nor anyone can operate outside of the laws of the land and straddle new legal entities with old debt from insolvent companies.

However they do have a trump card:
should they choose they could impose football sanctions, and make them specific for When new entities (GUST FC, CC FORAS, DERRY) spring up and want to be know as the old entity.
If new clubs want the old identity they should be relegated to the bottom division (1st. Div currently) and perhaps they should then be prevented from gaining promotion for 3 or even 5 years. Or a salary cap, prevented from having more than X pro players etc.
The choice then would be easy, new club OR old club but not able to progress for a period of time to be an example to others.

The fact Derry (I'm not an expert on DCFC so apologies if wrong here) & Cork folded (albeit last option or otherwise), regrouped and went back up debt free is a joke really - and ask any of their fans if they are the same club now or not?

However it is important these regions have league representation so for the good of the league they are here, not sure I like the how though.

[peadar1987]

The FAI should be a lot quicker with points deductions for any clubs found breaking the financial rules.

We've seen a few times where clubs have allegedly (read:almost certainly) been outside the stipulations of the participation agreement, but the FAI aren't likely to deny half the league a Premier Division licence, or throw them out of the league. It doesn't look good for them, and it's ultimately counterproductive.

Obviously giving teams fines doesn't work either. You're not going to solve a lack of money in a club by taking money from them.

So we're left with points deductions. They don't make a complete shambles of the league, like wholesale punishment relegations, they are scaleable, and they are applicable mid-season, so no just scraping things by at license time.

The FAI need to take a hard stand on this, or there will always be clubs who ignore the rules.

[Charlie Darwin]

Isn't a points deduction basically a delayed fine?

[peadar1987]

Isn't a points deduction basically a delayed fine?

If you look at the club purely as a business. However, clubs trying to buy success are going to take you a lot more seriously if you directly attack that success, instead of indirectly, a year or two down the line, when they go bankrupt and bail on their debts.

[L.T.F.C.]

I really don't think that is much of a deterrent either. If Cork got a point deduction the season they bought the history, crest etc it wouldn't have made much difference as they were not going to get promoted anyway.
This is garbage. It doesn't matter if they were going to get promotion or not. It makes no difference.


If a new entity wants to acquire the previous ones's history it should also acquire it's debts by default.

Yeah thats fine in dreamland... but not in the real world.

[passerrby]

Then thats we're they should start the new club , and promotion to the loi should be based on a clubs ability to show a decent past as well as a future

[osarusan]

Most of the measures mentioned so far are aimed at making it more difficult / costly for a new holding company to acquire the name and history of the club. I have no problems with a points deduction and or assumption of some portion of debt if a new entity wants to acquire the old club's name and history.

But, in line with what Eminence Grise said earlier, there needs to be a greater deterrent regarding the people running the club in the first place. I know there are some consequences for a director of a club that goes into administration, but it seems that people running a club can walk away without significant material penalties, albeit with damage to their reputation. What methods of punishment are there at the moment for directors of a club?

[Terry]

Then thats we're they should start the new club , and promotion to the loi should be based on a clubs ability to show a decent past as well as a future

I from what I've been told (but don't quote me as I have nothing to do with the trust) GUSTFC will go down that route if needs be, just to have a club to support, but the rules aren't there for this to happen. GUSTFC want to start at the bottom of the LOI structure as it stands today which is in the first division so have applied for this licence.

FAO Louth4sam. The trust have said time and time again that they have no plans at the moment in buying the past, they intent to invest in a future first, and build a club which will have a history for generations to come for the people of the city and county of Galway to support.

[Louth4sam]

This is garbage. It doesn't matter if they were going to get promotion or not. It makes no difference.


So you feel a 10 point deduction is a good deterrent if it has absolutely no bearing on the league apart from a few thousand in prize money?

[Dodge]

So you feel a 10 point deduction is a good deterrent if it has absolutely no bearing on the league apart from a few thousand in prize money?
Last season in the first division, there wass absolutely no deifference in 'prize' money between finish 5th and 12th. All 8 clubs got €5,000 (the same as clubs who finished 8th-10th in the premier)

Points deduction only affect teams challenging for titles (as I know all too well....)

[marinobohs]

Not really a fan of points deductions as they bring the League into disrepute (Pats/Shels debacle). I cant see a magic bullet solution for this problem but it might help if

(1) no new club could re register name/history/colours etc for at least five years from demise of "old club"

(2) Any new club (in LOI) would be required to deposit a considerable bond with FAI for duration of first season. This would make it more difficult for newer clubs to join the LOI but would also go some way towards deterring the issues raised.

No matter how good the intention of the applicants, no club should be allowed into the LOI without proper financial viability.

[passerrby]

I from what I've been told (but don't quote me as I have nothing to do with the trust) GUSTFC will go down that route if needs be, just to have a club to support, but the rules aren't there for this to happen. GUSTFC want to start at the bottom of the LOI structure as it stands today which is in the first division so have applied for this licence.


Im sure they do but they would be in the first div because of results not because of sanctions for mismanagement and that means they wil not have been punished therefore no deterent going forward. I admire and respect what gust are trying to do but clubs must expect a sanction or this whole licensing wil continue to be viewed as a farce

[Spudulika]

Agree with point 1 MB, on the 2nd I'm not so sure and the following comment. Financial viability can be proved in so many ways, yet not one works. Clubs have been handed licences yet went belly up or got the begging bowls out a few months later. I don't know if there is a way to resolve it without resorting to a franchise model, or doing something discussed previously about having a compliance officer with each club, especially as none of our clubs (with precious few exceptions) seem capable of looking after themselves.

[passerrby]

There is a simple solution
If a club goes into administration then there licence is revoked, no funny business That would focus the mind of some people however it will not happen as the fai would be afraid of catching some of there bigger fish in this net meant for the minnows .

[El-Pietro]

that wouldnt help at all - galway havent gone into examinership!

[culloty82]

Not really a fan of points deductions as they bring the League into disrepute (Pats/Shels debacle). I cant see a magic bullet solution for this problem but it might help if

(1) no new club could re register name/history/colours etc for at least five years from demise of "old club"

(2) Any new club (in LOI) would be required to deposit a considerable bond with FAI for duration of first season. This would make it more difficult for newer clubs to join the LOI but would also go some way towards deterring the issues raised.

No matter how good the intention of the applicants, no club should be allowed into the LOI without proper financial viability.

Both good suggestions - after all both FORAS and the new Derry City have proven themselves to be well-run operations, so other than a name-change for the latter, the five-year rule wouldn't have made much difference to their current situation. As for the bond, the risk, as you say, is that new clubs would struggle to raise the cash for both their budgets and the deposit, but there needs to be some guarantee that there wouldn't be a mid-season collapse.

[peadar1987]

Not really a fan of points deductions as they bring the League into disrepute (Pats/Shels debacle).

Neither am I, to be honest, but they're better than the alternatives of fines, and outright denial of licenses. And you could argue that they're fair and proportional as well, a team stands to gain a certain number of points by flouting the rules, so the organising authority take those points away from them. (That said while maintaining a healthy awareness of the idiocy of expecting the FAI to apply anything fairly and proportionately!)

[dong]

Both good suggestions - after all both FORAS and the new Derry City have proven themselves to be well-run operations.

Not too sure you could say that at this stage.
Come back to me in another few years and I might agree.

[Charlie Darwin]

Neither am I, to be honest, but they're better than the alternatives of fines, and outright denial of licenses. And you could argue that they're fair and proportional as well, a team stands to gain a certain number of points by flouting the rules, so the organising authority take those points away from them. (That said while maintaining a healthy awareness of the idiocy of expecting the FAI to apply anything fairly and proportionately!)
Well if the Pats situation was anything to go by, they deduct 3 points per unregistered player per game, regardless of result, so how much would financial mismanagement be? 20,000 points?

[pineapple stu]

Not really a fan of points deductions as they bring the League into disrepute (Pats/Shels debacle). I cant see a magic bullet solution for this problem but it might help if

(1) no new club could re register name/history/colours etc for at least five years from demise of "old club"

(2) Any new club (in LOI) would be required to deposit a considerable bond with FAI for duration of first season. This would make it more difficult for newer clubs to join the LOI but would also go some way towards deterring the issues raised.
I don't think we want to discourage entry into the LoI; any new club should be welcomed.

I think the genuine solution is to implement licencing competently. Galway shouldn't have been let get themselves into the current position. Licencing should assume people running clubs are idiots and need their hands held to stop them doing stupid things. (If people running clubs are smart, they shouldn't have any problems complying). After that, I think a points deduction is the way to go. I've said it before - miss a tax payment with Revenue, for example - official warning. Then a small fine, then points deduction. Easily tracked too. Points deductions are I think much more influential than fines (look at how the points system has worked on the roads compared with fines, as an extreme example).

[Spudulika]

PS, what you've put down is simple, easy to follow and enforce, intelligent and will assist in the building of a solid and long term league - so it won't happen then. Football in Ireland has a mentality of fly by night, get it done handy, quick and cheap, ah sure, it'll be grand. Blame can be laid at the door of the GAA and IRFU for being more solid, community based and professionally run (there is a slight element of truth there but too easy to use). Also I've read, could be a point by one prominent Rovers activist or possibly John Giles, that football clubs have been by and large run by small businesspeople with lacking education and foresight - there's an element of truth to that, though it's not a reason for rejecting intelligent proposals to save the LOI.