FIFA and Non Sovereign States

[NeverFeltBetter]

I believe so, but I think the the big issue, last I read, was that there was no pitch/stadia at all that would come close to the minimum standards.

[DannyInvincible]

I see what you mean...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Uummannaq-football-game.jpg/800px-Uummannaq-football-game.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Greenland_4%2C_Ilulissat%2C_soccer_field.jpg/800px-Greenland_4%2C_Ilulissat%2C_soccer_field.jpg

[NeverFeltBetter]

This is a good, if slightly out of date, article on some of the complications thst severely effect how countries get on in the recognition process (and why Kosovo may not benfit from any precedent that Gibraltar has set, unfortunetly): http://nextfifapresident.blogspot.ie/2012/07/kosovo-gibraltar-greenland-and-fifa.html

"Thus we have Kosovo, recognized by FIFA as a nation that may play other FIFA nations, but not allowed to join UEFA; Greenland, unable to join UEFA but having received FIFA assistance; Gibraltar, desperate to join both UEFA and FIFA but opposed by Spain and a hastily written rule; and the Faroe Islands, fully fledged UEFA and FIFA members."

I would say Greenland could get entry if they make the most of the financial assistance, but Kosovo remains in a diplomatic limbo.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Heard Greenland have one astro' pitch but it appears not?

Kosovo appear to have more of a legitimate claim as it this stage it should really only be independent sovereign states, not dependencies or colonial theme parks...

[DannyInvincible]

Heard Greenland have one astro' pitch but it appears not?

The terrain and pitches pictured do look kind of astronomical...

[NeverFeltBetter]

Heard Greenland have one astro' pitch but it appears not?

Kosovo appear to have more of a legitimate claim as it this stage it should really only be independent sovereign states, not dependencies or colonial theme parks...

Kosovo isn't recognised as an independent, sovereign state though. If Faroe's can be members, then legally speaking Greenland should be too.

It's just they don't have the capability to do so. I was just reading back on that "Outcasts: The Lands FIFA Forgot" book, which has a chapter on Greenland. They can only play outdoor football three months out of the year, and their league has to be regionalised since the road network isn't safe enough to allow anything else. The grand final switches locations every year, and a while ago it was in a place that required the competing teams to take a week long boat journey to and from. A few years, three players
travelling on a boat to play in such a fixture went missing and were later found frozen to death.

They play on sand pitches, lacking grass, but have enough funding now to have built an Astroturf pitch that Blatter approved off. Coca Cola had a sponsorship deal with the national team for a while at least, since Greenland is one of the few places on Earth they don't have a dominant share in the soft drink market.

The Football Association of Greenland (Yup, FAG) did make moves to apply for FIFA membership, but claim Blatter and co went cold on them after some promising early discussions. Their chairman suggests it was, as always, to do with worries over places like Kosovo, Gibraltar and others using such moves as precedent.

[pineapple stu]

AFAIK, the difference between the Faroes and Greenland is that the Faroes applied for (and got) FIFA membership before a rule came in which would have said they couldn't get membership. Gibraltar applied for membership before the rule came in too; it was just blocked till now, which is why they've finally been allowed in. Same won't hold for Greenland.

Kosovo you'd have to imagine will be members in due course, even if they're politically controversial.

[Charlie Darwin]

You'd imagine Kosovo will become a UN member sooner rather than later. Serbia are still angling for EU membership, which is probably dependent on recognising Kosovo's sovereignty, and you'd imagine Russia's opposition to Kosovo's membership is based purely on their designs on keeping Serbia within their own sphere of influence. Once Serbia and Russia reach some sort of compromise over EU membership, the barrier to Kosovo's independence will gradually fade.

Greenland's membership will be much more problematic and may come through entering another association before UEFA eventually relaxes its UN rule.

[pineapple stu]

The one thing Greenland does have in its favour is that it's hard for their clubs to compete in the Danish league given the distances involved. That's basically how come Tahiti are in FIFA despite not being a country; can't expect their clubs to compete in the French league.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Greenland's membership will be much more problematic and may come through entering another association before UEFA eventually relaxes its UN rule.

On that exact point, the officials quoted in the book I mentioned before opposed this idea, on the grounds that they weren't interested in one two-legged play-off against some Caribbean team once every two years. They wanted what the Faroe's have - regular football which has enhanced the sport (relatively speaking) on the islands.

[Charlie Darwin]

They may have to settle for second best though. I can't imagine too many UEFA members would be thrilled about having to go to Greenland for a qualifier.

[BonnieShels]

As an autonomous constituent country of the Kingdom of Denmark, doesn't Greenland share a status identical to that of the Faroe Islands?

Yes. But the Faroes are members under old rules. If they were to apply today they may not be accepted.

EDIT: As His Royal Pineappleness said.

[BonnieShels]

They may have to settle for second best though. I can't imagine too many UEFA members would be thrilled about having to go to Greenland for a qualifier.

They'd play in CONCACAF surely?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ha . And yes.

[pineapple stu]

EDIT: As His Royal Pineppleness said.
His Royal Pineppleness (sic)!

Hmm...

I could get used to that, I think!

[Metrostars]

I see Martinique beat Canada in the Concacaf Gold Cup the other day. They're in Concacaf but not part of FIFA.

[DannyInvincible]

I see Martinique beat Canada in the Concacaf Gold Cup the other day.

With this cracking last-minute winner, no less:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGBlxi2rI8I

[bennocelt]

TBF Canada are absolute muck

[Metrostars]

I would have thought by now that Canada would have seen come improvement with 3 MLS teams but it looks like they've gone backwards.

[Gather round]

Article about managing the minnows in current When Saturday comes:

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz196/BillMcComish/euro16-quali_zpsf3e736d5.jpg (http://s827.photobucket.com/user/BillMcComish/media/euro16-quali_zpsf3e736d5.jpg.html)

[Charlie Darwin]

It would be very hypocritical of the FAI to support any plan for pre-qualification, and to be fair after the Gibraltar episode I'd be inclined to believe Delaney et al are more sympathetic to the minnows than the big guys. Still, realpolitik might take over. The only way I can there even being an argument for it is if it is balanced out with lucrative friendlies against top-tier nations so they still get the experience of playing against the best and don't get cut out of the financial pie.

[geysir]

I don't see why the Iceland fa chief was quoted in that WSC article, Iceland are not minnows when it comes to the FIFA rankings. Iceland should be passing Ireland by, in the FIFA ranking table, on there way up on Tuesday night.


It would be very hypocritical of the FAI to support any plan for pre-qualification, and to be fair after the Gibraltar episode I'd be inclined to believe Delaney et al are more sympathetic to the minnows than the big guys. Still, realpolitik might take over. The only way I can there even being an argument for it is if it is balanced out with lucrative friendlies against top-tier nations so they still get the experience of playing against the best and don't get cut out of the financial pie.
A good place to start, is to read the arguments for weeding out the few minnows then you might acknowledge there exists a few :)
Vast majority of UEFA competitions already have elements of pre-qualifying.
2 which are open to all, are u21 and senior men.
With a population of over 1/2m and one of the richest countries in Europe, Luxembourg would need to be hit with a big stick if they lost a playoff to the likes of San Marino, Andorra, or Gibraltar.
By my reckoning, 10 groups of 5 would have meant say the bottom 4 teams playing-off or competing in pre-qualifying group for 2 places.
With Gibraltar in there, that means bottom 5 competing in pre-qualifiers for 2 places.
This proposal for EURO 2016 is a radical departure from the standard formats of previous competitions.
12 groups of 4, cuts out 5 teams and at the very least you'd involve the bottom 7 teams in a pre-qualifer event for 2 places or the bottom 10 teams if you were to have pre-qualifier playoffs. This makes it a few degrees more ruthless and less palatable.

[DannyInvincible]

It would be very hypocritical of the FAI to support any plan for pre-qualification

After the play-off in Paris?

[Charlie Darwin]

After the play-off in Paris?
Yes, and the general travails of a team that suffers from the seeding system being stacked against mid-ranking sides.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But there are too many teams. And if/when Greenland & Kosovo come in...

[NeverFeltBetter]

Which is not on the horizon at all, barring a major shift in Russia's objections.

[ArdeeBhoy]

To Greenland?

Seriously, Russia must be more worried about further of its own regions breaking away rather than Kosovo which has never been part of its own sovereign territory.
And ultimately is none of their business, despite their own restless Muslim minorities.

[NeverFeltBetter]

That's the exact reason though. Its nothing to do with Kosovo exactly, but the kind of precedent that recognising Kosovo sets - for, say, places like Chechnya (and Russia's pals Serbia, who will never recognise Kosovo). Kosovo won't get full recognised status by the UN anytime soon, so it won't be in FIFA or UEFA anytime soon.

Greenland has its own issues, more to do with ingrained FIFA hypocrisy. They still aren't ready to be members anyway.

[ArdeeBhoy]

FIFA & UEFA seem to be operating under different rules as the former say they're only going to admit full sovereign countries from now on?
Whereas UEFA (& FIFA previously) are happy to include various, almost random, colonial outposts...

[NeverFeltBetter]

Its the recurring issue of the retroactive applications. Gibraltar first applied before UEFA altered its criteria to include provisions that any prospective member state had to be recognised by the UN, so the CAS said such a provision had to be ignored in their case. It doesn't have to be for Kosovo, whose application has come way later, and who are unlikely to be recognised as a UN member any time soon. Your next UEFA member is more likely to be Wallonia or Flanders, or possibly even Catalunya looking at some recent movements in that part of the world.

While its easy to treat Russia as the bad guy in this situation, I actually have some sympathy and time for their viewpoint. Legitimising Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence is a very dangerous can of worms for future situations. While in the case of Kosovo, most reasonable arguments for independence - a separate national identity, self-governing, not being a "failed" state, no reasonable expectation of reconciliation with state it was once part of, and a (fairly) clear democratic mandate - exist in spades, it might not for any region that wants to take advantage of the precedent set in future, which could potentially cause chaos in parts of the world down the line.

On the issue of football, I think the requirement for UN recognition is a good thing, it just came too late. Its unfortunate for some regions and territories and feel they have a right to a separate footballing identity, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

[osarusan]

I hope that pre-qualification never comes in.

[Spudulika]

To Greenland?

Seriously, Russia must be more worried about further of its own regions breaking away rather than Kosovo which has never been part of its own sovereign territory.
And ultimately is none of their business, despite their own restless Muslim minorities.

Sadly it is Russia's business as few other countries will bother to stand up for the rights of the Orthodox minority - Greece ran from it and the US and GB just fund mercenary troops to look after installations (as well as maintain a base for keeping an eye on EE and the ME). The issue of Kosovo is very difficult and there are too many human rights issues to be resolved, as well as return of property to make it straightforward. It's a failed state as it is and glorified military base.

I agree that Russia is worried about it's own muslim regions, especially from pipelines and access, though few would genuinely want to separate - unless it's to form a new caliphate which even Iran doesn't want - though the Saudi's and Qatari's are determined to drive to further destabilise the region for their own perverted religious ends.

Agree with Osarusan, would hate to see pre-qualifying come into Europe, even though it exists in other regions.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I hear you, though personally recognise Kosovo's right to exist, unlike some I suspect. And have at least been to that part of the world unlike many.

However, regardless of the geo-political angle if the no.of European teams just expands inexorably, pre-qualifying is inevitable. And if the rest of the world has to endure this, why should Europe be any different? Smacks of arrogance to me...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Gibraltar get desperate?

http://backpagefootball.com/twitter-now-a-medium-for-international-recruitment/63537/ (http://backpagefootball.com/twitter-now-a-medium-for-international-recruitment/63537/)

[Gather round]

if the no.of European teams just expands inexorably, pre-qualifying is inevitable. And if the rest of the world has to endure this, why should Europe be any different? Smacks of arrogance to me...

Earlier on this, or a similar parallel thread I counted the number of games in current Euro qualifying, and then in an imaginary future tournament with many more European teams competing.

Current: 53 teams in nine groups (8x6, 1x5). So 268 qualifying games, including the play-offs in November

Imaginary future: 65 teams in 13 groups (13x5). So only 260 matches.

Clearly the cluttering of the fixture list follows not from allowing in village countries, ex-Soviet oblasts and the like but because five groups of six teams play 25% more matches than six groups of five. A situation which exists largely to insure England, France and Portugal against regularly finishing second in their groups.

I take the point made by Geysir and others, ie that more minnows means more mismatches. Allowing everyone a chance in a mini-league rather than just one two-legged cup tie every tournament outweighs that. That restriction is more arrogant than Europe organising its qualification tourney differently to the others without inconveniencing them.

I imagine Steve Menary refers Iceland in the WSC article because he assumes that such a small country will almost always be a minnow despite current good results ;)

[Gather round]

Question to Spud: isn't the Serb minority in Kosovo concentrated largely in towns on the border with Serbia? If so, can't they just redraw the line around them?

If not, sorry for showing my ignorance ;)

[BonnieShels]

Question to Spud: isn't the Serb minority in Kosovo concentrated largely in towns on the border with Serbia? If so, can't they just redraw the line around them?

If not, sorry for showing my ignorance ;)

If only redrawing borders was so easy...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Question to Spud: isn't the Serb minority in Kosovo concentrated largely in towns on the border with Serbia? If so, can't they just redraw the line around them?

If not, sorry for showing my ignorance

It doesn't work like that as you well know...
And the 'ignorance' factor is nothing new!
:rolleyes:

As for the pre-qualfiying debate, posted a link to yer WSC thread in the Euro 2016 one on here.
There are now too many minnows to bother about them all. A no.of which aren't even in Europe anyway...

[geysir]

I imagine Steve Menary refers Iceland in the WSC article because he assumes that such a small country will almost always be a minnow despite current good results ;)
He quotes the Iceland FA chief saying nothing, lips sealed with super glue
"......"
I suppose there is some point to that :)

AFAIR Iceland have only dropped to the minnow dungeon once in modern history, after a qual campaign where they hardly picked up a point and dropped into pot 6 for a quick visit. One major reason for that, was they let the u21 squad be at full strength for their qual campaign, and didn't select them for the senior team.
The current situation is that both u21 and senior squads are in serious contention for play-off places.
So, you can shove your Steve Menary assumptions where the sun don't shine :)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ha, was that after the campaign where even we racked up about seven goals against them in two games...


Doh, it was 4 goals in one game. The other ended 0-0. I may even have been at it, so memorable was the game.

[geysir]

Ha, was that after the campaign where even we racked up about seven goals against them in two games...
Well AB, who knows what account of past events relating to Irish football is stored your head, but the one sure thing is that it bears little or no relation to reality:)

[ArdeeBhoy]

OK it was 4 and it was more than 15 years ago. Do you remember every minor result from back then??

But my 'reality' is no less pertinent than yours...
;)

[geysir]

OK it was 4 and it was more than 15 years ago. Do you remember every minor result from back then??

But my 'reality' is no less pertinent than yours...
;)
Any 'real fan' would remember a qualifying result.
Offhand I recall a poxy Sunday afternoon o-o draw at Lansdowne, Keano booed, Aldo retired, and a shaky 4-2 win in Iceland where the Iceland goalie gifted the lucky Irish 2 goals. That goalie managed to survive a post match crucifixion and a 6 year stigmatised exile, and is still playing in the Icelandic league today, aged 40+ something.

So you can. like GR. shove your 7 goals over 2 games memory, where the sun doesn't shine, if there's any room left up there :)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yeah, right. Of interest again, to a minority of pretty much one...

[Gather round]

So, you can shove your Steve Menary assumptions where the sun don't shine :)

I thought I already had ;)

Anyway, apologies to Geysir and any other Icelanders reading, that last comment wasn't intended as the p*ss-take you may have read it as. I've long regarded pot five (where you were seeded for 2012, 2010 and 2008) as one of minnows, as opposed to the krill in number six.

Hoping for a few more rays of sunshine before the Nordic winter kicks in.

AB, do us a favor and add anyone I've forgotten to the list you think should be excluded from European qualifying. So far there's current or past attractions in the British colonial theme park, village countries whether genuinely independent or not, everywhere east of Moscow and Istanbul (although Georgia and Armenia have been almost universally regarded as part of Christendom for more than a thousand years), and of course all not actually on the peninsula of Europe or who once got away with a blatant handball. Thanks in advance.

PS how exactly does/ should it work in Kosovo Mitrovica, since you're obviously an expert on the area? Ta again.

[Spudulika]

Okay, so, Kosovo, I'm not keen on recognising a bandit state, despite the land being beautiful and possessing a dreamlike quality. It is run for the benefit of the US and their global war on, well, whatever takes your fancy. The whole scale removal of the Croatian (catholic) community is almost complete and the Kosovan government are responsible for the looting and sale of sacred relics from the former enclave. So letting the crims at the head of this statelet get further recognition, I don't know. Why not let in Republika Srpska, Croatian Herzegovina and Transdnestria, ganglands like Kosovo but without the US military bases.

If the Caucasus republics go solo, you've got a rake (a proper term) of republics from Russia to go, Tatarstan, the Jewish Republic, Komi, Mordovia, Chuvashia etc etc. Though the AJR will probably going into Asia. It can get messy.

Still don't know about pre-qualifying, anywhere, let the big boys slog it out and spread the light. As it's going we're going to have a closed shop like the 3/6 nations where countries willing to put the work in are excluded.

[ArdeeBhoy]

GR,
Except we've already had this 'debate', not just here but elsewhere! On numerous occasions.
So you might need to refresh your own memory!

Not to mention improving your spelling. And 'comedy'.
:rolleyes:

Take the other point about Kosovo, but it and various other areas are far more legitimate entities than glorified shopping parks like Gibraltar...
Even Srpska, which when I was there, had aspirations to be part of a 'Greater' Serbia, not just another joke territory?

[geysir]

Yeah, right. Of interest again, to a minority of pretty much one...
Then don't reply, posting nonsense, if it's of no interest to you.
but I guess your problem is you don't know it's nonsense when you post.;)

Just assume what you're going to reply is nonsense and move on.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm, takes one to know one.
Not to mention 'people in glass houses'...​re.nonsense.

Take a pill and chill.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Already following Ireland's lead: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24158900