FIFA and Non Sovereign States

[Stuttgart88]

May 24th I think, at Wembley before the CL final.

[TheBoss]

- To become a FIFA member a country needs to be (a) in its regional confederation and (b) a country recognised by the UN.

What a very strange term that is, you could argue that the European Union could apply for membership.

[geysir]

What a very strange term that is, you could argue that the European Union could apply for membership.

If that day comes, then it will be called the German Union of Acquiescent Republics.

[Stuttgart88]

Ah come on, I wasn't quoting from a statute book. I was relaying the contents of a talk I was at not submitting a legal paper.

By regional confederation I thought it was clear I was referring to the regional football confederation - UEFA, CONCACAF, CAF or whatever.

[geysir]

FWIW, the FIFA statutes do have an additional rule, a possible back door entry to to the FIFA club.

An Association in a region which has not yet gained independence
may, with the authorisation of the Association in the country on
which it is dependent, also apply for admission to FIFA.

You'd wonder how this would be possible with the written in stone requirement
'Membership is only permitted if an Association has already been a
provisional member of a Confederation for at least two years.'

Possibly the other confederations (other than UEFA) don't require an applicant member to be recognised by the UN.

[Gather round]

Thanks for that Stutts, fascinating stuff.

Spain v NI, qualifier for Euro 04. Apart from our boys managing only one shot in the entire game, and being glassed by some Real Madrid Ultra wannabes who objected to a Barca Crusaders banner, the evening was memorable for our fans singing "You'll never take Gibraltar" for the last 20 minutes as we waved the departing local fans to the exits ;)

[nigel-harps1954]

About time the Peoples Republic of Donegal got onto this one.

[Gather round]

Agreed. Peoples Republic Of Donegal Soccer On Ulster Territory!

[TheBoss]

A small article last week about Spain rejecting it: http://en.mercopress.com/2013/04/08/spain-warns-it-will-block-all-by-all-means-gibraltar-attempts-to-join-uefa

They say "Any Sporting Federation" but they are accepted in Cricket, Basketball and Darts.

[geysir]

The more minnow members like Gibraltar that are added to the UEFA club, the more that might support the cry for playoffs to weed out the minnows.
Spain could well pursue a minnow play-off system to ensure they don't have to play against Gibraltar.
The first 40 on the UEFA list, plus 5 of the best from nr 41 downwards.
Leaving 9 qualifier groups of 5 teams each.

I hear the sound of DeLorean purring.

[Gather round]

The more minnow members like Gibraltar that are added to the UEFA club, the more that might support the cry for playoffs to weed out the minnows.
Spain could well pursue a minnow play-off system to ensure they don't have to play against Gibraltar.
The first 40 on the UEFA list, plus 5 of the best from nr 41 downwards.
Leaving 9 qualifier groups of 5 teams each

Those two reasons are completely separate surely? Spain just want to avoid Gib, they'd have little reason per se to shun Kosova or Guernsey. They could do a deal as Azerbaijan and Armenia did in Euro 2008.

In the current European qualifying for Brazil 2014, the 53 teams will play a total of 268 matches.

Imagine if, in a much expanded UEFA, there were 13 groups each of only five teams, with winners alone progressing. The number of qualifiers would actually fall to 260.

[Stuttgart88]

Btw, our U19s only beat Gib 1-0 and I think they missed a late penalty. Our U19s are quite good. I don't know if the successful Villa contingent played though.

[geysir]

Those two reasons are completely separate surely? Spain just want to avoid Gib, they'd have little reason per se to shun Kosova or Guernsey. They could do a deal as Azerbaijan and Armenia did in Euro 2008.

In the current European qualifying for Brazil 2014, the 53 teams will play a total of 268 matches.

Imagine if, in a much expanded UEFA, there were 13 groups each of only five teams, with winners alone progressing. The number of qualifiers would actually fall to 260.
That's a thought,
but I'm leaning towards a minnow cull. Gibraltar is the last minnow to break the back. It's starting to get ridiculous when you have a country like Kosova still out in the cold. If the minnow is good enough, they'll survive the cull.

[Gather round]

That's a thought, but I'm leaning towards a minnow cull. Gibraltar is the last minnow to break the back. It's starting to get ridiculous when you have a country like Kosova still out in the cold. If the minnow is good enough, they'll survive the cull

As you said, Kosova's exclusion is largely due to Serbia and Russia's politicking. Which will tend to fade in the next few years. It hasn't really anything to do with the claims of other minnows.

If the cull's unnecessary, why have it?

[geysir]

As you said, Kosova's exclusion is largely due to Serbia and Russia's politicking. Which will tend to fade in the next few years. It hasn't really anything to do with the claims of other minnows.

If the cull's unnecessary, why have it?
It's not a question of necessity, it's more a question of quality of competition and a minnow taking that competition as serious as they are capable.
The minnows will benefit, the actual qualification competition will benefit, the standard of the lowest seeds will improve. There's an incentive to improve the standard. I have mentioned (to the disbelief of some on this forum) that the standard of football in the Faroe islands would benefit/improve if they had a proper indoor football facilities for all-year round coaching/training and competition, especially with the high/secondary school students, they need the financial support for that.
Some UEFA ranking points are too easily earned, even the current play-off standard gets distorted because of the gap between the quality of the 6th seeds. A minimum standard of competence and support from UEFA for a minnow to reach that minimum standard could be much more beneficial to the minnows than the current free-for-all system.

The European Cup transformed into the CL format has benefitted from a culling process, teams from the smaller leagues get good support from UEFA to compete in the early rounds and afaiaa the supporters of the teams in the lower ranked leagues think it's rational enough to earn the right to proceed to the more competitive qualification rounds against the better teams.

[Gather round]

Correct me if otherwise G, but aren't you suggesting what's basically a two-tier system, with a couple of groups of minnows detached from everyone else? Now that might marginally benefit the main qualifying competition, in that there won't be many 10-0 thrashings; but it doesn't outweigh the real disadvantages for those who miss out- less attractive games and thus income, maybe less games period.

Not convinced by the club football analogy. Actually there are various levels of exemption in the Champions League, five for this year's competition ranging from Linfield's entry to Chelsea's. Something similar in international football would be hierarchical mini-leagues rather than parallel groups. Spain, Germany and England might well fancy that, but I'm guessing you wouldn't?

[geysir]

Correct me if otherwise G, but aren't you suggesting what's basically a two-tier system, with a couple of groups of minnows detached from everyone else? Now that might marginally benefit the main qualifying competition, in that there won't be many 10-0 thrashings; but it doesn't outweigh the real disadvantages for those who miss out- less attractive games and thus income, maybe less games period.
I don't have any fixed ideas re format. And I'm not into nitpicking various ideas.
In the 2015 Women's World Cup qualification, the 8 lowest teams go into 2 preliminary groups of 4 teams, with the top 2 from each prelim group going through to the Qual rounds proper. 4 of the lowest 8 are culled. The Faroes (entering the Women's WC for the first time) topped their prelim group, well ahead of much 'bigger' football entities. How they progress in their qual group remains to be seen, but we can say they have earned their right to be there, they have gained real competitive experience, they are utilising their current financial resources efficiently and have demonstrated that they are a worthy experiment, worthy of further investing/support by UEFA.
I like the idea of UEFA money being used to support football structures in the minnow areas and there is something in that one way they can get income is by playing in the qualifiers. An other scenario for new teams like Gibraltar is to give them the target of being better than e.g. San Marino and Andorra, in a preliminary group. It's not that radical a concept is it? It means that a minnow has to demonstrate some standard and their federation be given enough finance to compete at the minnow level.


Not convinced by the club football analogy. Actually there are various levels of exemption in the Champions League, five for this year's competition ranging from Linfield's entry to Chelsea's. Something similar in international football would be hierarchical mini-leagues rather than parallel groups. Spain, Germany and England might well fancy that, but I'm guessing you wouldn't?
The exemptions for entry to the CL are not that relevant to the bigger picture of the basic evolving CL competition format.
The analogy for small teams having to earn the right to play the bigger teams, pervades most every cup and league competition in football. At present there is no minimum standard criteria for a minnow in the (male) UEFA qualifier zone.That issue is worth exploring.
I'm not preaching ideas to convince others who like it as it is. I am not even convinced myself.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Gibraltar are now a full member of UEFA: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22657481

They will not be drawn in the same qualifying groups as Spain.

[BonnieShels]

An awfully written article. But yay for them I guess. I don't like the way countries get away with not playing other countries. Sport is meant to be above politics.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I am pretty ignorant of just how difficult an issue this is in Spain - Would they go as far as refuse to play in Gibraltar for example? - but FIFA/UEFA have a track record of just trying to make potentially tricky ties not happen, or at least be played on neutral ground.

I mean, this is nothing. Imagine if Israel qualifies for the Qatar World Cup.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yes.

It's called the real world Bonnie.

And no chance Israel will ever compete in a World Cup in an Arab country IMO.

[peadar1987]

From the BBC article, it appears there is a team in Gibraltar called Man United FC. Anybody else think that the people who would name their club that probably wrote the constitution in crayon on the back of a Sesame Street colouring book?!

[NeverFeltBetter]

I was reading about them in some other article about Gibraltarian football today. Busby approved apparently, founded at the height of the "Babes" era. Lincoln FC used to be "Newcastle United Gibraltar" according to Wiki.

[Charlie Darwin]

Gibraltar are now a full member of UEFA: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22657481

They will not be drawn in the same qualifying groups as Spain.
Did we not ascertain recently that in fact the FAI was one of the three to vote in favour of Gibraltar's membership in 2007? I think it may have been Stutts who attended a meeting where members of the GFA spoke.

[BonnieShels]

Sure there's a Boca Juniors, a Chelsea and even a Hound Dog FC.

[geysir]

Did we not ascertain recently that in fact the FAI was one of the three to vote in favour of Gibraltar's membership in 2007? I think it may have been Stutts who attended a meeting where members of the GFA spoke.It's reported in every account of the 2007 vote that the 3 associations who voted for Gibraltar were the WFA, SFA and the FA.
Stutts heard different from the Gibraltar rep in London.

We won't sleep until this matter is ascertained.

[Charlie Darwin]

John Delaney's reputation is at stake.

[DerekMcKenna]

I read a Spanish article the other day that said the Spanish FA had threatened to pull all of their teams from European competitions (Champions lge, Europa etc) if Gibraltar got association status. I am looking forward to hearing their response!

[Stuttgart88]

I'll email him on Tuesday and ask. But he did say that the Irish have always supported them and even waived their share of the U19 gate money in solidarity.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Why wait till Tuesday?

And whose gate money...

[Stuttgart88]

Because I have his business card at work and I don't go back to work until Tuesday. The gate money was from a recent u19 match between Gib and IRL; we were entitled to half but declined to take it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'm sure he can't wait...
:rolleyes:
Not that he's liable to tell us the truth.

And half the gate money of an U-19 match; a €100?

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm sure he can't wait...
:rolleyes:
Not that he's liable to tell us the truth.

And half the gate money of an U-19 match; a €100?
Attendance of 1,500 (http://www.fai.ie/international/under-19/103141-u19s-beat-gibraltar-select-in-friendly-game.html) @ £5 a pop (https://www.facebook.com/events/290258677770976/?ref=22) = £7,500/2 = £3,750 - whatever proportion of the crowd were kids, still works out at a couple of grand and nothing to be sniffed at for a small FA with a legal bill to service.

[TheBoss]

I'll email him on Tuesday and ask. But he did say that the Irish have always supported them and even waived their share of the U19 gate money in solidarity.

Politically, the FAI should have no choice in not voting in Gibraltar, If they did, they are beyond stupid. It is almost the exact same position as Northern Ireland, ie, occupying a land that is not theirs.

[Charlie Darwin]

Huh? The FAI isn't a political organisation, and the state of Ireland no longer has a claim over Northern Ireland.

[ArdeeBhoy]

And Gibraltar isn't and never will be a country...
Sound familiar?
:rolleyes:

[peadar1987]

Politically, the FAI should have no choice in not voting in Gibraltar, If they did, they are beyond stupid. It is almost the exact same position as Northern Ireland, ie, occupying a land that is not theirs.

I believe both Northern Ireland and Gibraltar were gained by the UK in legally-negotiated treaties, agreed on by both sides, democratically in favour of being ruled by the UK, and have been so for the past several generations.

Whatever about their ancestors, unionists today have a right to live in Northern Ireland, and decide their own fate, without it being forced on them by over-zealous Republicans. Same as Gibraltar.

Interestingly, Gibraltar was in Spanish hands for only 200 years (1501 to 1704, after the Moors were pushed out, and before the Treaty of Utrecht), it's been in British hands, populated by British people, for the past 300.

I would have thought Irish people would know better than to suggest that territory should automatically belong to the nearest large power simply because of geographical location.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Even if the 'native' population there was based on illegal settlement there and subsequent archaic colonialism.

[peadar1987]

Even if the 'native' population there was based on illegal settlement there and subsequent archaic colonialism.

When that happened 400 years ago, yes. Current unionists living in Northern Ireland today should not be exiled or have a Dublin government undemocratically imposed upon them because of how their great-great-grandparents got there. Ireland has as much "historical" claim to the North as Connacht and Breifne do to being independent kingdoms. The people of Northern Ireland should be able to freely, fairly and democratically decide their status, without interference from London or Dublin. That's as true now as it was in 1971.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well yeah, but on the same pretext in 400 years time the illegal Israeli settlements on the West Bank will be 'legal' just because they were taken by force...

[peadar1987]

Well yeah, but on the same pretext in 400 years time the illegal Israeli settlements on the West Bank will be 'legal' just because they were taken by force...

Unfortunately, yes. Which is why it's so disappointing that the world doesn't want to do anything about them now.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's largely down to the U.S....

[pineapple stu]

It's gas that Spain objects to Gibraltar but has no problem with Ceuta, which is a very similar issue on the other side of the straits.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well, exactly. Good point. They should give up that spot also.

[Stuttgart88]

This was a good thread until a couple of days ago.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Why, what's wrong with it now?

[bennocelt]

http://kassiesa.net/uefa/forum/view.php?topic=20130524141349.xml

Dont know if thats known here - but news to me!!! Jesus who is next? kosovo, greenland, isle of man?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Transylvania? Lolz...

Seriously, Flanders could be a bet in the next decade...

[NeverFeltBetter]

We were talking about Gibraltar on the previous page.

Kosovo is on the way to UEFA/FIFA recognition, and I think it will benefit from the precedent that Gibraltar has now set in regards objections from neighbouring associations of a political nature. But it needs the UN to recognise it, and its difficult to see that happening in the near future thanks to Russian objections. Greenland is looking for it, but I think they still lack the required infrastructure. I think the Isle of Man, like the Channel Islands, briefly flirted with the idea of application but never went for it properly.

If Belgium does separate into Wallonia and Flanders, I see no reason why both would not be recognised as nations by the UN, UEFA or FIFA.

[DannyInvincible]

As an autonomous constituent country of the Kingdom of Denmark, doesn't Greenland share a status identical to that of the Faroe Islands?