Why a Celtic Cros?!?!

[liam88]

Why have neo-facist parties been using the Celtic cross in some form on flags etc.?

I wear a Celtic cross because I'm Irish and Ireland is one of the six Celtic nations.

Surley the neo-facists, who commonly associate with the loyalists in Northern Ireland, hold "anti-Celtic" principals, so why use a Celtic cross?

:confused: Anyone enlighten me?

[eoinh]

dont know. But dont assume that because celtic crosses are so familiar here that they dont have different meanings elsewhere. The swastika being an example or St Georges Cross.


And there are and were Irish Fascists. The Germans had their Brownshirts , we had our Blueshirts.

[liam88]

Aye thanks lads-I was looking around the web just after my post and I agree with Dav that it is simply a coicidence and not based on Celtic culture or tradition.
The Celtic crosses worn byme and all my family are totally different to the racist 'Celtic Crosses' which to be honest look more like crossheirs.

Aye Eoinh good point about things having different meaning else where, didn't quite understand your referance to the swastika and can't understand how the Celtic culture could ever be linked to white supremacy (mabye because the Celts werw white-but that's jsut crude :D ) however I get what you mean about SGC.

Even the Jack has a very different meaning when a young football fan hangs one out his window in England during the World Cup to when people stick them out their windows in Belfast on 12th July.

Cheers for the mail Dav-gonna have a look at it now. :D

[eoinh]

I think swastikas are found in other cultures - India? There they have nothing to do with nazis.

[Macy]

I think swastikas are found in other cultures - India? There they have nothing to do with nazis.
Yeah, it's a symbol of peace or something. I know the bloke from Kula Shaker got into trouble for saying it was beautiful, but was a hippy into all things Indian....

btw Eoin, you could also include Mosely's Blackshirts in the list...

[liam88]

Sometimes, I just love the tangled logic on this board! But why is the conclusion always, always 'Ireland/Nationalists good boys England/Loyalists bad boys'? Liam, there are LOADS Of neo-fascists in Ireland. Good Celtic supporting Catholic ones too!!

Ok fair play to ya (and I take it you mean Celtic as in the culture not the team when you mention Celtic supporting because I wasn't bringing the team into this ;) ).

What I meant was that the BNP, Combat 18 etc. all seem to be on the Loyalist side, "no surrender to the IRA" and all that, hence the organised neo-fascist movement 99% of the time indentifies with the Nord Iron Loyalist movement.

[Macy]

Ok fair play to ya (and I take it you mean Celtic as in the culture not the team when you mention Celtic supporting because I wasn't bringing the team into this ;) ).
Depends whether you were pronouncing Celtic correctly or not :D

[Peadar]

Depends whether you were pronouncing Celtic correctly or not :D

I'm sure he would have said "Selthick" if he was talking about the team :D

[sylvo]

I'm sure he would have said "Selthick" if he was talking about the team :D


Yawn zzzzzzzz

[Dodge]

You know the way fanatics in one country usually pick sides in every conflict (e.g. Republicans picking palestine adn loyalit picking israel...) well right wing groups in Italy have adopted the Irish nationalist cause as one of their own

[Peadar]

Yawn zzzzzzzz


Now you know how many of us feel when we have to listen to the drivel spouted by celitc "supporters."

[sylvo]

Now you know how many of us feel when we have to listen to the drivel spouted by celitc "supporters."


Again yawn zzzzzzz.

[dahamsta]

Less of the Celtic FC trolling. Macy, cop yourself on, you should know better.

adam

[dortie]

You know the way fanatics in one country usually pick sides in every conflict (e.g. Republicans picking palestine adn loyalit picking israel...)

Its not about 'picking sides', its about similarities.......

Republicans support palestinians because like the North of Ireland you have State 'legitamate' armies murdering innocent people, and a foreign government occupying another peoples territory. Plus one side is seen as terorrists and the other a legitamate army.

[dortie]

Why have neo-facist parties been using the Celtic cross in some form on flags etc.?

I wear a Celtic cross because I'm Irish and Ireland is one of the six Celtic nations.

Surley the neo-facists, who commonly associate with the loyalists in Northern Ireland, hold "anti-Celtic" principals, so why use a Celtic cross?

:confused: Anyone enlighten me?


Never came across this one, Interesting, where did you see this ??

[Dodge]

Its not about 'picking sides', its about similarities.......

Republicans support palestinians because like the North of Ireland you have State 'legitamate' armies murdering innocent people, and a foreign government occupying another peoples territory. Plus one side is seen as terorrists and the other a legitamate army.
So Italian fascists pick Irish republicanism because....

And the picking sides bit was more aimed at loyalists in response to republican's show of support for palestines...

[liam88]

Never came across this one, Interesting, where did you see this ??

There's a bit about it here (http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/racist_celtic_cross.asp) which sums up how they see it quite weel.. Try typing 'racist Celtic Cross' into google and you get quite a few similar things-I didn't visit many of them as some are actualyl racist web sites :eek:

I like the Celtic cross, I mean, it's Celtic-Irish, Scottish not racist or facist.

Aye the loyalist support for Israel deffinatley seemed to be a reaction to the Repulicans sympathy with the Palestinians.

Personally I'm not a big fan of the 'one struggle' for the simple reason that the two conflicts are fuelling each other on with money and weapons trades making peace pretty hard :rolleyes:

PRetty interesting point about Americans giving money to Israel who give money to the UDA/UDF/UDV and then giving money to the IRA through Nor-aid, wierd :rolleyes:

[brendy_éire]

Aye the loyalist support for Israel deffinatley seemed to be a reaction to the Repulicans sympathy with the Palestinians.

That, and some right wing fundementalist Protestants believe that once the Jews rule all of Palestine, Jesus will return to earth.

Liam, wouldn't take what ye see on that site too seriously. It's the Anti-Defamation League's site, a group of extreme Zionists who accuse anyone who comdemns Israel's actions of being a Nazi, think the UN is going to destroy Israel, etc, etc. Bunch of headcases really.

[Jaime]

Why should a kid hang a Jack out his window during the European Championships? The British Empire don't have a football team.


Dodge, the fascists love the self-sacrifice involved in the hunger strike, hence the Lazio flag for Bobby Sands etc etc (I think). I'm not sure they are that into the Irish struggle in general though, certainly not the Veronese on the BBC documentary who were accompanied by a Chelsea/C18 lad for their away trip to Atalanta.

[liam88]

Why should a kid hang a Jack out his window during the European Championships? The British Empire don't have a football team.



Aye but many still seem to find it the patriotic thing to do :rolleyes:

[Duncan Gardner]

Liam. The 'neo-fascists', as you call them and from other European countries, actually associate with both extreme nationalist and extreme unionist groups in Northern Ireland. No one side has a monopoly. (Although unionist paramilitaries have never taken the British far right seriously- the C18, BNP etc. have done little to protect the union, have they?).

The Union Jack has basically the same meaning to the young England football fan during the World Cup and to people in Belfast on 12th July. (Actually the latter tend to fly them all year round, just like their nationalist near-neighbours display the tricolor). Both serve as a mark of identity and needn't be more than that.

Dortie. It's our territory as much as your territory. And in every election we vote to keep it that way. And if all you can offer are simplistic parallels with Palestine etc., that's not going to change is it? You're hardly reaching out with a compromise.

BTW, has anyone heard from our Spanish companero Lopez? He could be a miserable bastrad sometimes, but I enjoyed winding him up? :)

[dortie]

Dortie. It's our territory as much as your territory. And in every election we vote to keep it that way. And if all you can offer are simplistic parallels with Palestine etc., that's not going to change is it? You're hardly reaching out with a compromise.



Naturally the majority vote is going to be pro-union when the desendants of this group were planted for that sole purpose. You see, I dont recognise the Northern statelet, therefore I dont recognise an election result that only holds the opinion of 6 counties.

And if you want to get into politics (Which i dont on a football forum), tell me when the last election/referendum was held to up-hold the union ? The last election was for europe and the one before that for the stormont assembly.

Not being ignorant here, but what compromise exactly do you want me to indicate ?

[lopez]

The Keltic cross is a neo-nazi symbol because it is associated with national purity. It needs not be repeated that 20th Century immigration to Ireland of non-whites is relatively new. Americans fascists try to connect it with Scotland - presumably to remove the taint of Papism - but if you research the connection between American fascism and Irish americans it makes some very uncomfortable reading, including many of the supporters of one political party and its army's armed struggle also being members of the KKK.

Depends whether you were pronouncing Celtic correctly or not :DWell being pedantic, wouldn't the right way to pronounce it be the club we cannot mention. You know we don't call it the city Kentre, or kelery or kelebrate a goal. It's a latin word I believe, and Latin languages pronounce it as they would any ce (eg: Spanish Celta as thelta (old story of King having a lisp). Isn't Celtic in Irish Gaeilge anyway?

Liam, wouldn't take what ye see on that site too seriously. It's the Anti-Defamation League's site, a group of extreme Zionists who accuse anyone who comdemns Israel's actions of being a Nazi, think the UN is going to destroy Israel, etc, etc. Bunch of headcases really.Zionist or not, I'd take there word over a load of KKK hillbillies anyday. Ever thought that if it wasn't for the Nazis there'd be no Israel/ZOP? I mean 6 million killed and cities with majority Jewish communities - Minsk, Vilnius, Salonika - no longer containing any Jews. IMO the Jews should have been given their own state, but the difficult decision, to take the land off the Germans was bi-passed and dumped on the Palestinians instead in what was the last European colonial snatch.

Less of the Celtic FC trolling. Macy, cop yourself on, you should know better.

adamIn other words, Peadar, f*ck off back to your crayons. It's no wonder we get kick-offs on here about C****c with l*ngers like you stirring the pot.


BTW, has anyone heard from our Spanish companero Lopez? He could be a miserable bastrad sometimes, but I enjoyed winding him up?
Just been let out of the gulag. ;)

[brendy_éire]

Zionist or not, I'd take there word over a load of KKK hillbillies anyday.

Is there much difference? They're both a bunch of sectarian, racist bigots.


IMO the Jews should have been given their own state, but the difficult decision, to take the land off the Germans was bi-passed and dumped on the Palestinians instead in what was the last European colonial snatch.

Completely disagree. All the people who live in Palestine (regardless of religion) should be given their own, single state.
No state should be set up to house a particular religion, it only creates problems. The state of Israel is one such state, it shouldn't exist. The same goes for Iran and the Vatican.

[Duncan Gardner]

Davros. Go away, and don't come back until you can spell 'integrate', and understand what it means. Ditto silly claims about the fascists dealing only with unionists. Where's your evidence for that 99%?

Both unionist and nationalist paramilitaries have long-established links with similar organisations and neo-fascist parties all over Europe and beyond. See Irish (and Colombian?) media passim over 30 years. Most of this relates to buying arms, though occasionally they try to articulate some sort of half-hearted joint political philosophy. By 'fascist', I don't merely mean anyone vaguely right-wing who disagrees with me, of course- though recent electoral/ referendum evidence suggests Ireland is just as ingrained in its prejudices as Britain, Holland, France and the rest.

Dortie. You're disingenuous rather than ignorant. The unionists who regularly win every election in Coleraine, Limavady and Magherafelt are generally people whose ancestors lived there 200 or 400 years ago. To refuse to recognise their vote because you think they have no right to be there is just daft. No-one is forcing you to talk politics, but statements like "the North of Ireland...State 'legitamate' armies murdering innocent people, and a foreign government occupying another peoples territory" hardly suggest avoiding the issue, do they? Oh, and all elections in NI- given that they're contested basically on one issue- are effective polls on the border. As you well know.

On a slightly lighter note, there are always possibilities for compromise. Like when LoI or IL fans suggest a joint cup competition. Plenty of fans on both sides (including me) are in favour- but it won't get anywhere unless you as a Derry City fan move on from what happened in 1972.

Or indeed 1689. Welcome back, Lopez :)

[Duncan Gardner]

Calm down Davros.

As I repeated above, unionist paramilitaries have links with far right groups in Britain and beyond. Searchlight and the other media you mention exaggerate these- basically, the UDA and UVF don't need knuckle-dragging English BNP members either to defend Ulster or (more relevantly) to divvy up the extortion, prostitution and other rackets in inner-city Belfast.

Since nationalist paramilitary activities are basically the same (just substitute 'Ireland' for 'Ulster'), they don't need to invite Nick Griffin around for tea. But their links with various factions, brigades etc. in France, Italy, Germany and Spain are well documented. Though you'll need to look beyond the Huddleboard and the Irish Post for details, I expect :)

If you've a problem with OWC, as a member why don't you raise it?

[lopez]

One example of the Irish-American community's coolness towards 'niggars' juxtaposing with enthusiasm for republicanism was the stateside visit by Sean Flynn of the IRSP in during the 1981 hunger strikes. The organisers, and prospective donors, had a seizure when he brought up the similarity between the orange state's discrimination and South Africa. One millionaire tearing up his cheque told Flynn: 'I don't like *******.'

DG, the FARC may well be a nasty bunch of drug wholesalers, but they aren't a part of the White Nation umbrella. 'Official' links between Republicans and fascists - outside individuals within the right-wing of Irish America - has been non-existent, although I have read that Vlaams Blok adored the Rah and had a big punch-up with some NF in the eighties at a Nuremberg style Fashfest in Northern Belgium during the eighties, over this.

As for Dortie's refusal 'to recognise [unionists] vote because [he thinks] they have no right to be there', well if you are going to lecture us about democracy let's start with the democratic wish of the Irish people to have 'autonomy' within the UK (until that was continually denied) and subsequently independence. Dortie's refusal - and mine aswell come to that - to give the NI statelet any legitimacy whatsoever stems from the fact that it was founded on the sight of a pointed gun.

[Duncan Gardner]

Dortie's refusal - and mine aswell come to that - to give the NI statelet any legitimacy whatsoever stems from the fact that it was founded on the sight of a pointed gun.

Aye, just like the Irish Free State (post Civil War) and innumerable other regimes worldwide throughout history. The pointed gun was 80 years ago, the regime that followed it hasn't been there for 30. Time to move on?

To Dortie: my point was really that you can't argue the politics on one hand and then cry foul 'leave the politics out of it' when someone answers you. I'm quite happy to talk about Derry City without reference to the early 1970s events or wider conflict.

But enough of Dav's beer gut :)

PS the big man and I agreed over a beer watching the match last night that five points from yer first three games would be a good return. Surely a place for him in Brian's set-up?

[Duncan Gardner]

Told ye, I'm already off to an expensive couple of games that week- but ye can buy us a drink down Fulham way :)

[lopez]

Aye, just like the Irish Free State (post Civil War)...
Exactly! The other half of partitioned Ireland.


...The pointed gun was 80 years ago, the regime that followed it hasn't been there for 30. Time to move on?The union that the Irish people wanted destroyed still exists. Partition still exists. Nothing has 'moved on' there.

[liam88]

Dunc-I seem to remeber you waving around a 4-provinces flag-surely in favour of a united Ireland ey? ;)
In another thread we were discussing nationalist/unionist symbols, the Ulster Provincial flag is pretty much all-round nationalist and you seemed pretty attached to it?

True colours ey? :D