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I agree that he conducted himself with a lot of dignity under difficult circumstances with regards the fans. I don't agree that finishing third or winning the Europa League were particularly significant achievements, given the players at his disposal. This time last year they were beating Barcelona and Bayern Munich to win the Champions League, I don't really understand how you think beating Basel and Benfica is so remarkable in a secondary competition. To be fair the Chelsea players, unappealing as they are, tend to deliver silverware regardless of who's in charge. Anyway, this is pointless, your hard on isn't going to shrink regardless of any logic presented, so we will agree to disagree.
Exactly as mad as it seems people have different opinions. Some can't accept it others can. Such is life.
Sad to see two more legends retire in addition to Fergie in Scholes and Carragher yesterday. Both proper professionals.
DeLorean
20/05/2013, 1:25 PM
Harper and Owen I presume? It has been a pretty sentimental end to the season. It has the potential to be the most interesting summer in a while in terms of transfers. At this points it's difficult to imagine United, City and Chelsea finishing outside the top 3 next season though.
Yes saw Harper getting emotional during the game when the supporters started singing. Another great pro.
Closed Account 2
20/05/2013, 2:32 PM
Even in the Europa League run, they stuttered past vastly inferior opposition in Sparta and Steaua, and Rubin to a lesser extent. They needed a late equaliser to avoid defeat at Brentford in the FA Cup and lost the World Club Final. He lost ten games in charge altogether and failed to win twenty which I think it quite a lot. Finishing with a trophy is always going to put a nicer gloss on things and, to be fair, they did have some impressive league results near the end as well.
Well they did stutteragainst Steaua, Sparta and Rubin and they were not playing very fluid football in those games. But in their whole run to the final they were only behind on aggregate once against Steaua after the first leg (the were also level but losing on away goals at a stage against Steaua in the second leg), in all the other games they took the lead and were never behind. At times teams pushed them close, especially Rubin at the end in Moscow, but they had done the hard work in most of those ties early on.
You say that he lost 10 and didn't win 20 games - is this both league and cup games? Because I have him (w-d-l) at 28-10-10 overall and 15-6-5 in PL only matches (with Di Matteo at 11-4-6 overall and 7-3-2 in the PL), but that's just a quick on-paper calculation so I could be wrong.
DeLorean
20/05/2013, 2:47 PM
To be fair the tie was practically won against Rubin once they scored over there, certainly when they scored the second. Steaua gave them a serious run for their money though and even Sparta were only a goal away from going through at the end. These are all teams I'd expect Chelsea to beat anyway, that's why I don't think it was a significant achievement. Chelsea are way above Europa League standard.
You say that he lost 10 and didn't win 20 games - is this both league and cup games? Because I have him (w-d-l) at 28-10-10 overall and 15-6-5 in PL only matches (with Di Matteo at 11-4-6 overall and 7-3-2 in the PL), but that's just a quick on-paper calculation so I could be wrong.
Yeah, all games. I don't see the contradiction, your overall record is exactly the same? Di Matteo's league record is almost identical to Rafa's so, percentage-wise as he only had half the amount of games.
Edit- I am including the 10 defeats in the 20 not won of course.
Closed Account 2
20/05/2013, 3:49 PM
Ah I thought you meant failed to win 20, as in his number of wins didn't exceed 20.
Stuttgart88
20/05/2013, 7:35 PM
I've no firm opinion on the topic, but that's a great exchange of views above. Well done lads.
Poor old Tony P just got handed his P45 from Stoke. The ball boys will be happy i'd imagine!
OwlsFan
22/05/2013, 7:39 AM
Poor old Tony P just got handed his P45 from Stoke. The ball boys will be happy i'd imagine!
Another club with illusions of grandeur. Pullis has done a good job there but obviously the Chairman wants to kick on from the middle to lower middle reaches of the EPL. Fair enough but Stoke are probably a Championship club with bigger clubs like Notts Forest, Sheff Wed, Derby C, Leeds U and others envious of their achievements in the EPL. There's an old adage "be careful what you wish for" and I wouldn't be surprised if Stoke are relegated next season but then again....it's a funny old game.
Another club with illusions of grandeur. Pullis has done a good job there but obviously the Chairman wants to kick on from the middle to lower middle reaches of the EPL. Fair enough but Stoke are probably a Championship club with bigger clubs like Notts Forest, Sheff Wed, Derby C, Leeds U and others envious of their achievements in the EPL. There's an old adage "be careful what you wish for" and I wouldn't be surprised if Stoke are relegated next season but then again....it's a funny old game.
I heard that the chairman is packing it in at Stoke as well. How true i don't know.
DeLorean
22/05/2013, 10:06 AM
Rafa for Everton KK?
Rafa for Everton KK?
I'd say Stubbs or Phil Neville. The cheap option.
DeLorean
22/05/2013, 10:45 AM
Serious lack of experience there. Everton is probably the biggest available job if Benitez wants to remain in England, assuming Pellegrini and Mourinho go to City and Chelsea.
ArdeeBhoy
22/05/2013, 11:54 AM
Except based on a recent radio interview he gaVe, there's more chance of him staying with The Chavs...
Sky reporting Roberto is considering his future in the next 24 hours. Dave Whelan will keep everyone posted. I wonder is he off to Malaga?
Whelan said on Wednesday afternoon: "I've just had a very constructive meeting with Roberto.
"He was very honest, as always, and put his cards on the table.
"I respect him enormously and, if he says he wants to leave, I won't refuse, but I hope he says he wants to stay here for another year, two years, three years."
"He's got certain things to think about, which I respect. It's not a straightforward yes or no.
"He wants 24 hours to talk to his wife and we'll meet again tomorrow.
"I respect him enormously and, if he says he wants to leave, I won't refuse, but I hope he says he wants to stay here for another year, two years, three years."
Asked if he was optimistic Martinez would decide to remain at Wigan, Whelan added: "With Roberto, I'm always hopeful.
"He likes a challenge and it's a big challenge next year. The Championship is a challenge and we are in Europe as well. We'll need to add to the squad and there is a lot to do.
"He wants 24 hours, which I think is right, and we'll have his decision tomorrow. Whatever decision he makes, I will respect it."
Charlie Darwin
22/05/2013, 3:48 PM
His wife getting involved again. This never ends well.
i wouldnt have picked Martinez as my first choice replacement for Moyes but hearing rumours regarding one of or a combination of Neville/Stubbs/David Weir is making me quickly revisit my perspective on Martinez! Mackay and Laudrup were my preferred choices with a glance towards Gus Poyet...
i wouldnt have picked Martinez as my first choice replacement for Moyes but hearing rumours regarding one of or a combination of Neville/Stubbs/David Weir is making me quickly revisit my perspective on Martinez! Mackay and Laudrup were my preferred choices with a glance towards Gus Poyet...
I heard rumours of Stubbs myself. I suppose time will tell but i can see it being him or Neville myself. Bill will be able to put a spin on it no doubt but at the same time Everton haven't got a lot of cash.
BonnieShels
23/05/2013, 10:08 AM
I assumed at this stage it would be Poyet.
Shame really that the candidates for the job are of such a low profile.
ArdeeBhoy
23/05/2013, 10:45 AM
Low quality?
geysir
23/05/2013, 11:37 AM
To be fair the tie was practically won against Rubin once they scored over there, certainly when they scored the second. Steaua gave them a serious run for their money though and even Sparta were only a goal away from going through at the end. These are all teams I'd expect Chelsea to beat anyway, that's why I don't think it was a significant achievement. Chelsea are way above Europa League standard.
Yeah, all games. I don't see the contradiction, your overall record is exactly the same? Di Matteo's league record is almost identical to Rafa's so, percentage-wise as he only had half the amount of games.
Edit- I am including the 10 defeats in the 20 not won of course.
I suppose you can argue Chelsea were 3rd when Rafa took over and finished 3rd, so what did Rafa really achieve? Not much in his early months, it looked like the constant vilification had eroded his authority and his fine tuning/tinkering of the available talent was stuttering in effect.
From March onwards, with a game every 3 or 4 days, I'd give him a 9/10 for turning around that situation while the mindless vilification continued.
You can talk about the likes of Steau, Sparta, Rubin and Basel, that Chelsea should be beating them, but these days in the EPL, that's a very good run. I'd rate the away performance against Basel as pure 'Rafaesque' and in the home leg - some 10 minutes of devastating football blew Basel away.
I'd say they had the hardest EPL run-in considering the Europa ties as well, finishing 5th was just as realistic as a top 4 position. Rafa had them ticking over with a controlled authority and pulled off the important results. You'd wonder how their schedule would have been arranged, if they had made it to the FA cup final?
"I believe he is in the top six managers in the world and I believe he will go even higher than that.
"Roberto is a very special manager. In my eyes he is No 1 in Europe but, okay, I'm a little biased."
Dave Whelan, regarding Martinez.
What's that place in Stillorgan called! LOL
peadar1987
23/05/2013, 11:46 AM
Another club with illusions of grandeur. Pullis has done a good job there but obviously the Chairman wants to kick on from the middle to lower middle reaches of the EPL. Fair enough but Stoke are probably a Championship club with bigger clubs like Notts Forest, Sheff Wed, Derby C, Leeds U and others envious of their achievements in the EPL. There's an old adage "be careful what you wish for" and I wouldn't be surprised if Stoke are relegated next season but then again....it's a funny old game.
It depends what you mean by "big club". In terms of attendances, Stoke have a higher average attendance than anyone in the Football League. In terms of historic success, until the mid-1980s they were a solid mid-table club who had occasional cup runs. In terms of great and famous players, we produced perhaps the greatest of them all in Sir Stanley Matthews, as well as having legends like Alan Hudson, Jimmy Greenhoff, Geoff Hurst and Gordon Banks.
Pulis was sacked mainly because of his increasingly bizarre tactical decisions, and his performance in the transfer market. He did very well for us until last season, and then things started to fall apart. He fell out with Pennant and Etherington has been going off the boil as he gets towards the end of his career, and he has completely failed to replace them. We've gone from being a hard-working, expansive team with a real goal threat from two pacey wingers and powerful strikers, to one with no imagination, little goal threat, and increasingly under pressure at the back.
I'm eternally grateful to Tony for what he has done for Stoke City, but I think now was probably the time for him to move on. Hopefully the next manager can build on his success, and create a team with the same hard-working attitude and team spirit as the one we currently have, but make better use of our strengths, and perhaps bring us back to the sort of play that saw us make the FA Cup final in 2011.
BonnieShels
23/05/2013, 11:58 AM
Low quality?
Profile. Oops. Had a mind blank making the post.
ArdeeBhoy
23/05/2013, 12:02 PM
Fair enough. Less is more.
OwlsFan
23/05/2013, 12:56 PM
It depends what you mean by "big club". In terms of attendances, Stoke have a higher average attendance than anyone in the Football League. In terms of historic success, until the mid-1980s they were a solid mid-table club who had occasional cup runs. In terms of great and famous players, we produced perhaps the greatest of them all in Sir Stanley Matthews, as well as having legends like Alan Hudson, Jimmy Greenhoff, Geoff Hurst and Gordon Banks.
Pulis was sacked mainly because of his increasingly bizarre tactical decisions, and his performance in the transfer market. He did very well for us until last season, and then things started to fall apart. He fell out with Pennant and Etherington has been going off the boil as he gets towards the end of his career, and he has completely failed to replace them. We've gone from being a hard-working, expansive team with a real goal threat from two pacey wingers and powerful strikers, to one with no imagination, little goal threat, and increasingly under pressure at the back.
I'm eternally grateful to Tony for what he has done for Stoke City, but I think now was probably the time for him to move on. Hopefully the next manager can build on his success, and create a team with the same hard-working attitude and team spirit as the one we currently have, but make better use of our strengths, and perhaps bring us back to the sort of play that saw us make the FA Cup final in 2011.
Didn't say "big club". I said "bigger club". I understand that they have higher attendances in the EPL but let's give them a dose of a few seasons in the 1st division and Championship and we'll see how those attendances compare then. I can't remember them winning a major trophy in my life time (quick check of Wiki shows a League Cup win in the 1970s which equals Wednesday's one as well in recent history in the 1990s).
As for legends, don't forget the legend that was Terry Conroy. I remember Stoke in the pre Premiership days in the top flight and they are obviously a well run club but I still think those clubs I mention are still bigger clubs in terms of pedigree and support but that of course means little and I am sure they would all love to be in Stoke's position.
Change of manager - I always tell people that I have seen around 20 changes of managers at Hillsboro, of whom perhaps 5 or 6 improved things and the others made it worse. Risky business but nothing ventured one may say.
How did you come to support Stoke ?
Charlie Darwin
23/05/2013, 1:10 PM
Stoke were bang in the middle of the Championship attendance table the season of their promotion: http://stats.football365.com/2008/ENG/D1/attend.html
Latest from David Whelan on Roberto.
"We have had a good, constructive talk - nothing about wages it is all about the club and can we move it forward in terms of the training facilities and youth development," Whelan said.
"It is all tied up in that. He wants to do certain things and I'm hoping I can assist in that but I want a day or two to look at it.
"I don't want to say yes until I've had time to think about it. It will be Monday before I can promise anything."
peadar1987
23/05/2013, 2:31 PM
Didn't say "big club". I said "bigger club". I understand that they have higher attendances in the EPL but let's give them a dose of a few seasons in the 1st division and Championship and we'll see how those attendances compare then. I can't remember them winning a major trophy in my life time (quick check of Wiki shows a League Cup win in the 1970s which equals Wednesday's one as well in recent history in the 1990s).
As for legends, don't forget the legend that was Terry Conroy. I remember Stoke in the pre Premiership days in the top flight and they are obviously a well run club but I still think those clubs I mention are still bigger clubs in terms of pedigree and support but that of course means little and I am sure they would all love to be in Stoke's position.
Change of manager - I always tell people that I have seen around 20 changes of managers at Hillsboro, of whom perhaps 5 or 6 improved things and the others made it worse. Risky business but nothing ventured one may say.
How did you come to support Stoke ?
It does rile me when people say that certain clubs are "bigger" than Stoke, although it wasn't your intention. Clubs don't have a god-given right to be where they are, and I think each club should have the intention of making the most of their current situation, regardless of historical success or crowd sizes. I know it's subjective, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't think there's much to call between Stoke, Wednesday, Derby and Forest, especially if you take out the Clough factor. Leeds would arguably be a bigger club on a more consistent basis.
I'm almost always against changing managers just for the sake of change, as seemed to be the case at Charlton when Curbishley was sacked. I thinl Charlton has essentially gotten bored of him. Pulis seems to have been let go for a very specific set of reasons, chiefly his style of play, his underutilisation of the potential of the squad, and his squandering of the transfer budget he's been given. If the next manager is a well-thought-out step forwards, who can do all of these things better than TP, while still keeping together the factors that have made Stoke great, that would be brilliant. On the other hand, if it's Mark Hughes, well...
I support Stoke because my dad is a born and bred clayhead who held a season ticket at the Victoria ground, before he moved to Ireland after marrying my mum.
BonnieShels
23/05/2013, 3:02 PM
I support Stoke because my dad is a born and bred clayhead who held a season ticket at the Victoria ground, before he moved to Ireland after marrying my mum.
A very commendable and understandable reason.
But Bray! Eugh!
DeLorean
23/05/2013, 3:02 PM
I suppose you can argue Chelsea were 3rd when Rafa took over and finished 3rd, so what did Rafa really achieve? Not much in his early months, it looked like the constant vilification had eroded his authority and his fine tuning/tinkering of the available talent was stuttering in effect.
From March onwards, with a game every 3 or 4 days, I'd give him a 9/10 for turning around that situation while the mindless vilification continued.
You can talk about the likes of Steau, Sparta, Rubin and Basel, that Chelsea should be beating them, but these days in the EPL, that's a very good run. I'd rate the away performance against Basel as pure 'Rafaesque' and in the home leg - some 10 minutes of devastating football blew Basel away.
I'd say they had the hardest EPL run-in considering the Europa ties as well, finishing 5th was just as realistic as a top 4 position. Rafa had them ticking over with a controlled authority and pulled off the important results. You'd wonder how their schedule would have been arranged, if they had made it to the FA cup final?
I'd agree with most of that really and even said a lot of it myself. You can't fault the results in the final month or two. I do wonder with Chelsea though how much of it is down to the players and how much is down to the manager. I know that sounds like I'm trying to deprive Benitez of any credit, but I can't help thinking Di Matteo didn't have to do too much with the same players who managed to deliver a Champions League and FA Cup. When they get the scent for success, they don't tend to let it slip. Rafa's rotational policy worked out very well as it kept players fresh in what was a fairly frantic period of matches, but then you'd hardly notice any dip in quality when the Chelsea team is rotated. The same couldn't be said for his time at Liverpool when it would mean playing N'Gog instead of Torres!
I suppose you can argue Chelsea were 3rd when Rafa took over and finished 3rd, so what did Rafa really achieve? Not much in his early months, it looked like the constant vilification had eroded his authority and his fine tuning/tinkering of the available talent was stuttering in effect.
From March onwards, with a game every 3 or 4 days, I'd give him a 9/10 for turning around that situation while the mindless vilification continued.
You can talk about the likes of Steau, Sparta, Rubin and Basel, that Chelsea should be beating them, but these days in the EPL, that's a very good run. I'd rate the away performance against Basel as pure 'Rafaesque' and in the home leg - some 10 minutes of devastating football blew Basel away.
I'd say they had the hardest EPL run-in considering the Europa ties as well, finishing 5th was just as realistic as a top 4 position. Rafa had them ticking over with a controlled authority and pulled off the important results. You'd wonder how their schedule would have been arranged, if they had made it to the FA cup final?
Yes when it came down to it he showed his class.
BonnieShels
24/05/2013, 9:07 AM
On the other hand, if it's Mark Hughes, well...
Mark Hughes is leading contender for Stoke City manager's jobhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22649939
Uh oh!
peadar1987
24/05/2013, 12:11 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22649939
Uh oh!
Ah sure what do the bookies know!
And anyway, a friend of mine reminded me about how well he did at Blackburn, so if you squint really hard to see past QPR and Man City, he doesn't look quite so bad!
BonnieShels
24/05/2013, 12:44 PM
Ah sure what do the bookies know!
And anyway, a friend of mine reminded me about how well he did at Blackburn, so if you squint really hard to see past QPR and Man City, he doesn't look quite so bad!
And don't forget Wales. :)
geysir
24/05/2013, 2:38 PM
I'd agree with most of that really and even said a lot of it myself. You can't fault the results in the final month or two. I do wonder with Chelsea though how much of it is down to the players and how much is down to the manager. I know that sounds like I'm trying to deprive Benitez of any credit, but I can't help thinking Di Matteo didn't have to do too much with the same players who managed to deliver a Champions League and FA Cup. When they get the scent for success, they don't tend to let it slip. Rafa's rotational policy worked out very well as it kept players fresh in what was a fairly frantic period of matches, but then you'd hardly notice any dip in quality when the Chelsea team is rotated. The same couldn't be said for his time at Liverpool when it would mean playing N'Gog instead of Torres!
I'd rate Rafa's stint similar to Avram Grant's season, similar context - having to manage while enduring revolting fans' rabid protests and player 'unrest'.
And not worse than Hiddink, who didn't have to face those obstacles.
I suppose under 'normal' circumstances for an experienced manager, the Chelsea squad would be an easy one to steer but both Rafa and Avram did not have easy circumstances
Mike Phelan and Eric Steele both given P45's today from Man U. I suppose changes bound to happen with a new manager in charge. Strong and obvious rumours Steve Round and Chris Woods are coming in.
OwlsFan
18/03/2015, 12:21 PM
I'm almost always against changing managers just for the sake of change, as seemed to be the case at Charlton when Curbishley was sacked. I thinl Charlton has essentially gotten bored of him. Pulis seems to have been let go for a very specific set of reasons, chiefly his style of play, his underutilisation of the potential of the squad, and his squandering of the transfer budget he's been given. If the next manager is a well-thought-out step forwards, who can do all of these things better than TP, while still keeping together the factors that have made Stoke great, that would be brilliant. On the other hand, if it's Mark Hughes, well....
Progress under Mark Hughes? I still hear all the opposing managers coming out with the same cliches about travelling to Stoke. "Hard place to go", "tough tackling", "long ball" etc etc All that would appear to have changed is that Stoke no longer have Delap with the long throw but otherwise the perception seems to be the same.
OwlsFan
20/03/2015, 2:48 PM
Sterling delays contract talks "to concentrate on football". To concentrate on better offers (from Man City) perhaps?
DeLorean
20/03/2015, 3:02 PM
He would fit in well at Man City.
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