Epl 2011/2012

[old git]

I accept the point but is does gives hope for every club that some day a billionaire will come in and rescue the club from penury and challenge the Man Us, Arsenals etc for trophies. Wednesday were about to go in to administration in Division Three when Mandaric bought the club, wiped the debts and they are now back in Division Two aka Championship. Without him I don't know where they would be. Man U have bought success for years albeit from their own resources but by having a huge debt but it does give hope to others. It would have been another Man U cake walk this season, even with a relatively poor side, so the Arab money made a competition out of it and made long suffering fans happy.

challange the arsenals for trophies :confused: would not be hard to do that..:ball:

[OwlsFan]

:) Arsenal challenge but they don't win any.

[Stuttgart88]

...and what about when the multi-millionaires walk away, like David Murray at Rangers?

[Stuttgart88]

James Lawton (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/james-lawton-premier-league-is-to-blame-for-football-owners-acting-like-headless-chickens-3103455.html) agreeing with my take on things in today's independent.

[KK77]

Good luck to Man City. Family friend of mine is a season ticket holder since the 70's and has had to put up with years and years of Man U living in Manchester so he really doesn't give two flying hoots that people think they are buying the title. As he said to me recently there was once a time when Man U had the biggest spending power and spent it as such and he can't remember anyone complaining about it.

[OwlsFan]

I see Pat Rice is retiring after 40+ years at Arsenal. I shall miss those pictures of Wenger ranting away at him about some refereeing decision and Rice sitting there impassively letting it wash all over him like some husband turning a deaf ear to the wife's moans and groans.

1871

[KK77]

Pat Rice is not only a great Arsenal man but also a great man and football man. Not many like him around and good luck to him in his retirement.

[OwlsFan]

Steve Bould apparently is the next shoulder for Wenger to cry(rant) on.


James Lawton (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/james-lawton-premier-league-is-to-blame-for-football-owners-acting-like-headless-chickens-3103455.html) agreeing with my take on things in today's independent.

I am not sure that the choice of Blackburn by Lawton is a particularly apt choice when raging against the system in the Premiership. Jack Walker bought the title for that club by big spending on the likes of Shearer and I know a few Blackburn fans who are now paying the price of following the club at that time.

[KK77]

Steve Bould apparently is the next shoulder for Wenger to cry(rant) on.



I am not sure that the choice of Blackburn by Lawton is a particularly apt choice when raging against the system in the Premiership. Jack Walker bought the title for that club by big spending on the likes of Shearer and I know a few Blackburn fans who are now paying the price of following the club at that time.

Jack Walker spent the money on Blackburn but the hard work was done on the training pitch and in the games to win the league the season they won it and the seasons before they got promoted and finished 2nd or 3rd. Money gives you a great dig out but lets not forget it doesn't guarantee anything.

I assume by paying the price you mean they jumped on board at that particular time as opposed to just supporting the club?

[osarusan]

Well, that was an exciting finish to the season.

Hard to know who I'd prefer to win, City's big spending mercenaries with their 250 million quid squad, or United's plucky underdogs working off a mere half of that figure*.



*I don't really know how much either team has spent, but at a wild guess, it's a lot.

[Stuttgart88]

Football, bloody hell, to qoute Sir Alex F.

I share your indifference osarusan but couldn't help but be gripped all afternoon. We all know what it's like not being able to score against stubborn opposition and that was quite remarkable.

As I regularly say, I love the EPL just as much as I loathe it.

[tetsujin1979]

It's time like these I can't decide if I love football or if I hate it

[bennocelt]

It's time like these I can't decide if I love football or if I hate it

Exactly, and wait when Chelsea win the CL!!!

[OwlsFan]

That was just amazing. My only gripe is that RTE didn't have it live with no doubt George Hamilton writing City's obituary with probably 20 minutes to go. Even more spectacular (just) than Arsenal winning at Anfield in the 1980s. The crowd scenes are what made it for me. I could feel the utter despondency of the fans and then in the space of 5 minutes the utter elation. I saw some leaving with 5 minutes to go which I found bizarre since at that stage Sunderland could still equalise and City would only need a goal. Boy, are they sorry now. Joey Barton also added to the spice and despite the red mist and as he argued with the ref he still managed to take off his captain's band and hand it to one of his team mates. These sort of finishes are not that unusual, it's just that it happened to decide league title (this season Owls lead Walsall 0-1 going in to injury time and lost 2-1 and were 4-2 against Huddersfield in the 88th minute and drew 4-4).

I loved the sight of the stunned Man U fans at the Sunderland game and Ferguson unsure of what was happening. Time for someone else to win it and who better than their neighbours with a huge support but without a title for 40+ years.

Alas, the latest bone that the media have grabbed is that Man City will now dominate the next ten years. I read it in the papers and I heard Hansen saying it. They scraped home against one of the poorer Man U sides I can remember. I am not sure about the next 10 years.

The other media cliche was that Man U had done this run in time and time again and they would therefore know what to do. Doh!

One thing is sure, be prepared to see in 2032 middle aged men in City jerseys. I have met many of the Blackburn generation and so it shall continue.

However, it was, in the words of Chris Kamara, "unbelievable Jeff".

[KK77]

That was just amazing. My only gripe is that RTE didn't have it live with no doubt George Hamilton writing City's obituary with probably 20 minutes to go. Even more spectacular (just) than Arsenal winning at Anfield in the 1980s. The crowd scenes are what made it for me. I could feel the utter despondency of the fans and then in the space of 5 minutes the utter elation. I saw some leaving with 5 minutes to go which I found bizarre since at that stage Sunderland could still equalise and City would only need a goal. Boy, are they sorry now. Joey Barton also added to the spice and despite the red mist and as he argued with the ref he still managed to take off his captain's band and hand it to one of his team mates. These sort of finishes are not that unusual, it's just that it happened to decide league title (this season Owls lead Walsall 0-1 going in to injury time and lost 2-1 and were 4-2 against Huddersfield in the 88th minute and drew 4-4).

I loved the sight of the stunned Man U fans at the Sunderland game and Ferguson unsure of what was happening. Time for someone else to win it and who better than their neighbours with a huge support but without a title for 40+ years.

Alas, the latest bone that the media have grabbed is that Man City will now dominate the next ten years. I read it in the papers and I heard Hansen saying it. They scraped home against one of the poorer Man U sides I can remember. I am not sure about the next 10 years.

The other media cliche was that Man U had done this run in time and time again and they would therefore know what to do. Doh!

One thing is sure, be prepared to see in 2032 middle aged men in City jerseys. I have met many of the Blackburn generation and so it shall continue.

However, it was, in the words of Chris Kamara, "unbelievable Jeff".

Yes have to admit watching Fergie and Phil Jones not knowing what was happening was funny. A real taste of their own medicine and to hear Fergie moaning about the five minutes added was even funnier. I think John Giles made reference to it on the Premiership later that night. Congrats to City for winning the title in the end. Incredible to think Man U and Fergie blew such a lead of 8 points.

[Stuttgart88]

Were they 8 clear with same number of games played?

[Schumi]

Were they 8 clear with same number of games played?

8 up with 6 to play each I think.

[OwlsFan]

These are three stills I took from the TV and they say everything about what life as a fan is:

First one, Man CIty fan with his back to us belts his seat in utter frustration with his scarf as the score is 2-2 but QPR win a throw deep in injury time:

1873

Second one he watches (bottom left) as Aguero closes in on goal:

1874

And then the winning goal is scored !!

1875

I get emotional watching it to be honest. Could there be a greater high in the world than those few seconds for that fan?

[KK77]

I see Man U have finally let Michael Owen go. Bar the Man City goal i can't remember anything of note during his time there. He could end up at Everton.

[Stuttgart88]

I agree totally Owls fan, that kind of exhiliration can only really be known to football fans. And for fans of lesser teams and countries it's even sweeter. I wonder how that moment stacked up against Dickov's late late equaliser against Gillingham? Can you quantify euphoria?

I still stand by my point though. Arsenal didn't buy success in 1988/9 - they bored their way to success! - and the drama and exhilaration was just as intense. There was no illicitly gained Russian oligarch or sovereign wealth money in the game back then, but the drama was just as great.

And applauding a sovereign oil state with absolutely no previous attachment whatsoever to City for buying this moment for their fans is like thanking Bertie Ahearn or Anglo Irish for helping you buy your first house in 2006. Getting the keys must have been a great feeling, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do either in the long run or for the consequences it had on the whole system.

[DeLorean]

I see Man U have finally let Michael Owen go. Bar the Man City goal i can't remember anything of note during his time there. He could end up at Everton.

The equaliser in the Carling Cup Final I suppose (I know, I know but it's a big competition to some clubs).

[KK77]

The equaliser in the Carling Cup Final I suppose (I know, I know but it's a big competition to some clubs).

Yeah true enough a full house that day!

[OwlsFan]

I still stand by my point though. Arsenal didn't buy success in 1988/9 - they bored their way to success! - and the drama and exhilaration was just as intense. There was no illicitly gained Russian oligarch or sovereign wealth money in the game back then, but the drama was just as great.

And applauding a sovereign oil state with absolutely no previous attachment whatsoever to City for buying this moment for their fans is like thanking Bertie Ahearn or Anglo Irish for helping you buy your first house in 2006. Getting the keys must have been a great feeling, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do either in the long run or for the consequences it had on the whole system.

So without the "money" wins in the Premiership, we would have had 17 Manchester United wins and 3 for Arsenal. In the long run that would not have been good for the Premiership. In fact without Man City this year, it would have been another boring cake walk for Man U. The only way many of the other clubs can compete against the world brand that is Man U, is outside investment. Incidentally, the Glaziers who bought Man U aren't angels either. The days of clubs like Aston Villa, Derby and Notts Forest winning league titles are gone without investment from elsewhere.

I see Frannie Lee helped in the presentation of the trophy to Man City. No Joey Barton sneaky elbows and knees in the back for him. He liked the big punch ups with Norman Hunter :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8kxMnc5KUs

[Stuttgart88]

So without the "money" wins in the Premiership, we would have had 17 Manchester United wins and 3 for Arsenal. In the long run that would not have been good for the Premiership. Your guess is as good as mine but I think that's too simplistic. The richest team doesn't always win in the Bundesliga when the financial wealth is more evenly spread.

Also, there's quite a bit of research showing that dynasties are tolerated as long as people see the success as having been achieved the right way. In United's case the big factor has long been the core of the 1992(?) youth team and Ferguson. Liverpool's dynasty started with Shankly and was kept alive by successors. European football has always had dynasties yet has kept growing in popularity. I'd be more inclined to argue that without Abramovic wage inflation in the EPL would not have been as abundant and others would have been able to compete on a more even footing. Look how well run clubs like Norwich and Swansea have come up through the ranks. Now the only way you can win is by having an oligarch or billionaire come in - OK, yiou still need to spend wisely and run things well on the pitch, but by and large that skill can be bought.

I'm not naive - English football has always operated on a benefactor-owner model but things have got out of hand. The sums involved are ludicrous, the whole pyramid has been disrupted, the game is bankrupt outside the top flight (and for many within it), the taxpayer and local businesses have been kicked to touch by bankrupt football clubs by virtue of the Football Creditors Rule. Crooks, spivs and opportunists are extracting huge sums from a national asset and will argue till the cows come home against any tighter regulation just as bankers argue against rules that would loosen their grip on the economic rent they extract from what should be a fundamentally useful industry.

Yes, last Sunday was great but if you want competitive parity in the longer run you've got to support UEFA's financial initiatives.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The Bundesliga is still the ideal model?

[Stuttgart88]

As ideal as you're likely to get in my opinion. It's not perfect but it's far more sustainable than the EPL's model, or La Liga's where the debts owed by the main clubs to the taxman alone is disgraceful.

[OwlsFan]

Whatever happened to 1-0 to the Arsenal. I had the pleasure of watching Reading 5 Arsenal 7 last night. I had the sneaking suspicion that when Arsenal pulled 1 back before half time to make it 4-1 it might be a close game but who would have thought of that scoreline. A few Arsenal supporters were on camera leaving the ground when they were 4-0 down. Hah! Nice goal by Noel Hunt by the way among Reading's 5. Felt for Reading. Arsenal's equaliser came in the 95th minute when only 4 minutes of stoppage time was signalled and they should also have been down to 10 men.

[SkStu]

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/3756_10151316098817090_1695220714_n.jpg

[KK77]

Great result for Spurs yesterday. I would agree with AVB in that they look like they are getting stronger now as opposed to recent times when they blew up near the finish line. Really like AVB myself. In other news Arry’s missus wasn’t in Dubai with QPR and he trained the team harder than any other team out there! Spoofer!

[OwlsFan]

Sky must be crying in their soup this weekend. Very little to get excited about with only the Champions League place at stake. Hardly edge of the seat stuff.

Wigan gone after years of hanging on in there. Still the players go down, and those good enough will be transferred back up, with an FA Cup medal in their pocket, something the super hero Moyes at Everton was never able to achieve. They and their fans will always have that to look back on rather than mere subsistence in the Premiership every year.

I saw the spending figures below recently:

1911

Arsenal have done very well on the amount spent in comparison to the rest. Everton finish each season approximately in line with its spending, possibly a place or two higher. Liverpool are the big under achievers although is there a Champions League in there (can't remember when they last won it)?

[Stuttgart88]

How cringeworthy was Niall Quinn on SKY last night? "Everybody loves cuddly little Wigan, they've captured everyone's hearts" and so on, all flippin' night. Yes, there's a lot to admire about them but they went down because they lost too many games. It's not a popularity contest.

As far as I'm concerned Wigan's season has been an unambiguous success. Winning the FA Cup is a permanent thing. A medal is permanent. Apart from a very nice lifestyle what will Mikel Arteta be able to show his grandchildren from his days in England? A passport stamp from when he played in the Champs League?

Paul Jewell threw out that old line last night "but with all the money that the EPL involves the cynic in me says that's more important". I disagree totally, and Wigan's parachute payments are hardly measly anyway. Wigan - yes Wigan - are in Europe and have silverware. So what if they're in the Championship? If they're good enough and smart enough, they can get back and even so, they'll find a level appropriate for a club that attracts, what, 15,000 fans?

[peadar1987]

I agree Stutts, so what about the money? Football is a contest to see who can win the most games and competitions, not who has the fattest bank account. In fifty years time, Wigan fans will still remember winning the FA Cup. Nobody will have vivid memories of three more seasons of finishing 16th.

[Stuttgart88]

I know but kids are brainwashed into thinking that finishing 4th or 4th last is a bigger prize than, well, an actual prize. If I was a Fulham fan I'd have swapped a Europa League win for relegation, no brainer - especially with an owner that could prevent a freefall like wolves or Leeds. Yet even when they were in the final it was seen as secondary to a forthcoming laegue game and at Bolton Gary Megson wasn't particularly enthused about a QF (?) tie against Bayern Munich (?) because he had a game against some other overrated English PL side at the weekend. It's all wrong!!!

And so what if a club earns more money in one division than another? They spend all their money anyway, and more! The money benefits the spivs and hangers-on, not the club itself.

[DeLorean]

Liverpool are the big under achievers although is there a Champions League in there (can't remember when they last won it)?

Yeah they won it in 2005. It's amazing the amount of Liverpool fans I know who blame the introduction of Sky and TV money for United's rise and their demise.

[peadar1987]

Some people just lose sight of the fact that the reason they wanted the money in the first place was to win trophies. If they want to watch large numbers steadily getting larger, I'd suggest they abandon football and look at this website (http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/where/) instead. It would make them much happier.

[BonnieShels]

Wahey!

I find it fascinating the difference in attitudes here than to other sites.

Like both of you I always found it annoying when clubs started to decide Cup competitions were distractions.

We were discussing in The pub last Friday night about how many FA Cup winners we all remembered and pretty much I think we could name without fail from 1976-2000 and then it gets hazy. I thought that that was quite amazing how the knowledge of the cups dovetailed with when it became "less important".

[DeLorean]

I agree totally with Stutts and Peadar. The only thing I would say is that it's a bit of a pity that Wigan's FA Cup win came in the same season as relegation. It does add a bittersweet element to what is probably still the greatest season in their history. But yeah, to choose one over the other I would go with the silverware all day long.

It's probably better that they were relegated last night as opposed to the final day as well. At least now they can turn their frowns upside-down, so to speak, for Sunday and celebrate their cup win with their fans instead of crying about being relegated.

What a day it would have been for them though if they had beaten Villa to stay up as well! To be honest though, the goals they conceded to Swansea last week were unforgivable and they can't have any complaints over the season as being able to defend, even just a small bit, is a vital part of football.

[KK77]

Wigan got what they deserved. They have been floating with relegation since Martinez came to the club bar one season. The seasons previous to him they had good league positions. I suppose if you listen to the media long enough. Great FA Cup win all the same and credit to them.

[KK77]

Sky must be crying in their soup this weekend. Very little to get excited about with only the Champions League place at stake. Hardly edge of the seat stuff.

Wigan gone after years of hanging on in there. Still the players go down, and those good enough will be transferred back up, with an FA Cup medal in their pocket, something the super hero Moyes at Everton was never able to achieve. They and their fans will always have that to look back on rather than mere subsistence in the Premiership every year.

I saw the spending figures below recently:

1911

Arsenal have done very well on the amount spent in comparison to the rest. Everton finish each season approximately in line with its spending, possibly a place or two higher. Liverpool are the big under achievers although is there a Champions League in there (can't remember when they last won it)?

Super hero Moyes! LOL

I am sure he will break that duck against Wigan in August though can you count the Charity Shield as a trophy? LOL

[Charlie Darwin]

Mancini counts it as a trophy. God knows why.

You're being very harsh on Wigan. They're a small club who have survived for about 5 years longer than could have been reasonably expected because of their brilliant scouting network and Dave Whelan's business acumen. If more clubs in the top leagues in England operated like Wigan, it'd be a much better place.

[DeLorean]

You're being very harsh on Wigan. They're a small club who have survived for about 5 years longer than could have been reasonably expected because of their brilliant scouting network and Dave Whelan's business acumen. If more clubs in the top leagues in England operated like Wigan, it'd be a much better place.

KK is probably still bitter that Martinez chose another relegation battle over managing Liverpool.

[KK77]

Mancini counts it as a trophy. God knows why.

You're being very harsh on Wigan. They're a small club who have survived for about 5 years longer than could have been reasonably expected because of their brilliant scouting network and Dave Whelan's business acumen. If more clubs in the top leagues in England operated like Wigan, it'd be a much better place.

All Martinez sides conceeded over 60 goals during his time at the club. They never conceeded 60 or over in the previous seasons. He took them over when they finished 11th.

[Charlie Darwin]

All Martinez sides conceeded over 60 goals during his time at the club. They never conceeded 60 or over in the previous seasons. He took them over when they finished 11th.
He joined them when they'd just lost their manager and two best players. He was charged with rebuilding the team along more modest lines and he's done so impeccably and brought them the first major trophy in their history. He's brought in players like McCarthy, McManaman, Gomez, Di Santo, Kone, even Maloney who could be sold tomorrow for multiples of what they paid.

[KK77]

He joined them when they'd just lost their manager and two best players. He was charged with rebuilding the team along more modest lines and he's done so impeccably and brought them the first major trophy in their history. He's brought in players like McCarthy, McManaman, Gomez, Di Santo, Kone, even Maloney who could be sold tomorrow for multiples of what they paid.

I would say finishing 11th meant he didn't have a huge rebuilding job but if he did he took the building down. As i previously stated the FA Cup was a great achievement. As a manager he failed to stop them linking goals and the warning signs had been there from his very first season. When he took over they had a goal difference of -11 and by the end of his first season it was -42. I could go on. And if he brought in so many good players how did he manage to get them relegated.

[Charlie Darwin]

I would say finishing 11th meant he didn't have a huge rebuilding job but if he did he took the building down. As i previously stated the FA Cup was a great achievement. As a manager he failed to stop them linking goals and the warning signs had been there from his very first season. When he took over they had a goal difference of -11 and by the end of his first season it was -42. I could go on. And if he brought in so many good players how did he manage to get them relegated.
He brought in lots of good players and almost all of them were sold at a profit so he was constantly in a state of rebuilding the side. Martinez taking over coincided with Whelan's business interests declining so he was forced to run the club as a going concern rather than being able to invest heavily. So the years of spending £20m a year on players were over, and he basically had to sell to reinvest, which he did impeccably. When you're constantly selling your best players and bringing in inexperienced youngsters, you're going to find it very difficult to maintain your position let alone advance it.

[KK77]

He brought in lots of good players and almost all of them were sold at a profit so he was constantly in a state of rebuilding the side. Martinez taking over coincided with Whelan's business interests declining so he was forced to run the club as a going concern rather than being able to invest heavily. So the years of spending £20m a year on players were over, and he basically had to sell to reinvest, which he did impeccably. When you're constantly selling your best players and bringing in inexperienced youngsters, you're going to find it very difficult to maintain your position let alone advance it.

I understand he works with very limited resources and over the course of 4 seasons there is bound to be times when you run into trouble. But it's the same thing every single season. Look at this season. Wigan definitely aren't one of the worst three teams in the league,yet here they are with one game to go down. Now if Martinez has a better team than some of those above him,how is that acceptable when you've been in charge as long as he has. I'm happy for Martinez winning the FA cup and he probably will get a shot at a bigger club,and I'd be happy to be proven wrong(as long as its not Everton)but Wigan have gone down down because they've made the same mistake that they make every season,and if you keep leaving yourself a mountain to climb,its inevitable eventually you won't be able to.

[Charlie Darwin]

I understand he works with very limited resources and over the course of 4 seasons there is bound to be times when you run into trouble. But it's the same thing every single season. Look at this season. Wigan definitely aren't one of the worst three teams in the league,yet here they are with one game to go down. Now if Martinez has a better team than some of those above him,how is that acceptable when you've been in charge as long as he has. I'm happy for Martinez winning the FA cup and he probably will get a shot at a bigger club,and I'd be happy to be proven wrong(as long as its not Everton)but Wigan have gone down down because they've made the same mistake that they make every season,and if you keep leaving yourself a mountain to climb,its inevitable eventually you won't be able to.
Well Wigan aren't one of the worst teams in the league on their day, but they don't have the squad or the resources to play to their best every day. Every single that finished above them is able to offer bigger contracts and bigger transfer fees for the same sort of players, or better. Wigan made two big signings this year - Kone and Ramis. Kone was a more or less unqualified success, but Ramis having been bought to lead their defence has been injured most of the season. There were times this season when he had no fit centre halves.

And again, you're acting like Wigan plan to start slowly and finish well. Martinez may well train the team to peak towards the end of the season, I don't know, but the fact is they are so erratic because they have a shallow squad compared to other, richer teams.

[Stuttgart88]

Much is made of a bad run of defensive injuries, which sounds credible enough to me. Any side with Gary Caldwell anywhere near it is bound to leak goals though!

[DeLorean]

I suppose only one questions remains really, what is Roberto Martinez greatest accomplishment at Wigan Athletic?




A) Beating Manchester City to win the 2013 FA Cup?


or


B) Making a 100% profit on Conor Sammon?

[Closed Account 2]

Going from 2-1 up to 3-2 down home to Swansea and only drawing with QPR (who had 10 men for over half the game) were disasterous results. It's a shame, but they've conceeded the most goals in the league and they have chopped and changed the keeper a fair bit.