The case for a National Academy

[paul_oshea]

Stu, my old chum, I'm not getting hung up or going into irrelevant territory, its just the more I thought about your event junkyism within the GAA, the more I thought it incorrect. Without sounding patronising, I'm not sure you appreciate/understand the ethos of the GAA in terms of club before county etc. No doubt there is an element - in every sport - that latch onto the big day games, but I think overall through all the different levels played, its supported well relative to the available population for those levels. For example on any given day at the start of the year over the course of a week if you were a dual club you could have more than 4 games including county go go to. Its not practical for a "supporter" to go to every game, let alone probably 2 so 1 is more likely. Lets take the St brigids v Crossmaglen club game a few weekends ago, Brigids brought over 4000 to that game, that's a sizeable chunk even given their catchment area, and its also a big number that would have more than likely missed the following County game.

I know from many of my friends, clubs, people I know through some of the PRO work I have done, they follow the local club more than they do the County, as in the club comes first, but they will still support the county. Its the same throughout the country, granted the numbers will be low relative to the catchment area of the club, but there are 100s of clubs like this the length and breadth of the country.

The point I am trying to make is that I think there is a supporter culture in the GAA, at a decent, and more than sustainable level for said code, I'm not denying there is an element of event-junkyism or neutrals jumping on the bandwagon, but I believe there is what you call a "supporter" element as defined by global meaning you refer to.

[A N Mouse]

Stu, my old chum, I'm not getting hung up or going into irrelevant territory, its just the more I thought about your event junkyism within the GAA, the more I thought it incorrect. Without sounding patronising, I'm not sure you appreciate/understand the ethos of the GAA in terms of club before county etc. No doubt there is an element - in every sport - that latch onto the big day games, but I think overall through all the different levels played, its supported well relative to the available population for those levels. For example on any given day at the start of the year over the course of a week if you were a dual club you could have more than 4 games including county go go to. Its not practical for a "supporter" to go to every game, let alone probably 2 so 1 is more likely. Lets take the St brigids v Crossmaglen club game a few weekends ago, Brigids brought over 4000 to that game, that's a sizeable chunk even given their catchment area, and its also a big number that would have more than likely missed the following County game.

I know from many of my friends, clubs, people I know through some of the PRO work I have done, they follow the local club more than they do the County, as in the club comes first, but they will still support the county. Its the same throughout the country, granted the numbers will be low relative to the catchment area of the club, but there are 100s of clubs like this the length and breadth of the country.

The point I am trying to make is that I think there is a supporter culture in the GAA, at a decent, and more than sustainable level for said code, I'm not denying there is an element of event-junkyism or neutrals jumping on the bandwagon, but I believe there is what you call a "supporter" element as defined by global meaning you refer to.

While your point about levels of support may be valid. Giving the figures for an all ireland semi final doesn't really counter stu's argument, and as such you're probably venturing into irrelevant territory.

[paul_oshea]

That's the most recent attendance I had to hand, it was a relevant example to the time in question and all the games being played. Everyone knows the GAA don't like to make their attendances "official", so its very hard to get figures.

[geysir]

Event junkeyism is not evident in the GAA NFL, with the exception of the first game under lights at Croke Park. And that event is waning in attractiveness, to becoming a 'run of the mill' NFL game. The NFL is regarded as a secondary competition, a warm-up competition for the AI.
Winning the NFL is not regarded as a big thing, getting relegated is not a big thing. It's usually the dedicated supporters who go to these games. Getting a 9k attendance to Tyrone v Donegal is 'normal' in Ulster.

[Crosby87]

Why would people tend to choose to support the club or country more? Why can't they be rabid about both, or luke warm about both?

[A N Mouse]

Event junkeyism is not evident in the GAA NFL, with the exception of the first game under lights at Croke Park. And that event is waning in attractiveness, to becoming a 'run of the mill' NFL game. The NFL is regarded as a secondary competition, a warm-up competition for the AI.
Winning the NFL is not regarded as a big thing, getting relegated is not a big thing. It's usually the dedicated supporters who go to these games. Getting a 9k attendance to Tyrone v Donegal is 'normal' in Ulster.

But this derby 'event' is an outlier, no?

Unless Tyrone and Donegal are getting around 4k for less attractive nfl fixtures then then your evidence contradicts your argument!

[geysir]

But this derby 'event' is an outlier, no?

Unless Tyrone and Donegal are getting around 4k for less attractive nfl fixtures then then your evidence contradicts your argument!
Tyrone v Donegal is not a derby match as such, Derry and Donegal is derby material.
I don't know about Donegal but Tyrone have a hard core of 4k for league attendances. An attractive fixture between Ulster teams just attracts more dedicated supporters to come, attracts the away supporters to travel. Even a low level (pre NFL competition) McKenna cup final in Ulster will attract a 7k to 9k attendance.

[A N Mouse]

Tyrone v Donegal is not a derby match as such, Derry and Donegal is derby material. [/b/]

Depends very much on where you live/socialise (bragging rights). I know at least one armagh man maintains they are tyrone's biggest rivals - most disagree.


I don't know about Donegal but Tyrone have a hard core of 4k for league attendances. An attractive fixture between Ulster teams just attracts more dedicated supporters to come, attracts the away supporters to travel. Even a low level (pre NFL competition) McKenna cup [b]final in Ulster will attract a 7k to 9k attendance.

I'll admit to knowing next to nothing about it. But notice you've specified the final, what are the other rounds like - against the universities or that?

I think it's a valid, if unrelated, point that gaa is structured such that involvement more or less equals (financial) support of the county.

However support is manifest by regular attendance. Picking and choosing which games to attend based on prestige, rivalry, or a team's current success is either event junkeyism or bandwagoning. Neither is in or of itself a bad thing, hopefully a few will stick around and join the core support.

No code about here is immune to it, I just don't see the sense in trying to deny it.

[paul_oshea]

I don't either, but as you and stu try and say I got hung up on what you call event-junkyism, I call it that you are hung up on what event-junkyism is. That size support for nfl games is certainly not event-junkyism, that's the point here.

I think your judgement is clouded on what exactly you see event-junkyism is in relation to football as opposed to GAA.

[geysir]

I'll admit to knowing next to nothing about it. But notice you've specified the final, what are the other rounds like - against the universities or that?

I think it's a valid, if unrelated, point that gaa is structured such that involvement more or less equals (financial) support of the county.

However support is manifest by regular attendance. Picking and choosing which games to attend based on prestige, rivalry, or a team's current success is either event junkeyism or bandwagoning. Neither is in or of itself a bad thing, hopefully a few will stick around and join the core support.

No code about here is immune to it, I just don't see the sense in trying to deny it.
You don't get it and you profess to know next to nothing, then I suggest you just accept the testimony of people who do or keep an open mind at least :)

So, GAA supporters who are connected to their sport through a club based structure are event junkies if they go to a lowly McKenna cup final and not go to see their county in some (almost) practice game with a 3rd string team against a University team? Am I understanding you right?

[SkStu]

Okay, so there is no event junky mentality whatsoever in GAA. Next!

(by the way Paul, given that my parents are from and most of my family lives in Glenamaddy and Dunmore and i spent an inordinate amount of time there until well into my 20's, I get the point you are making about club football vs county. I hopped on a number of associated bandwagons in my time - i was exactly the kind of event junky I am now talking about).

What i mean about irrelevance, my old chums, is that i started out making a general and pretty rational observation. We are now arguing about McKenna Cup attendances which are irrelevant to the general statement and dont actually counter it in any way as AN Mouse has excellently argued while i was sleeping... The amount of debates on here that argued down to the micro level is pretty off-putting. A 9k attendance in a NFL game doesnt dispel the fact that we are overwhelmingly a nation of, for want of a less offensive term, event junkys. Apart from AI, we cannot sustain proportionate crowds over an extended season (8-9 months) in any code. The outliers you hold up as examples actually support this.

[geysir]

Okay, so there is no event junky mentality whatsoever in GAA. Next!
Eh? nobody said that. There's little or none in the NFL never mind the McKenna cup as A N Mouse tried to argue.
Be inspired by the indisputable facts, that Irish people can attend sporting events of a lowly stature, in reasonable numbers, the type of numbers that if transferred to a LOI situation could sustain a professional club.
The LOI have different problems with attracting people who are interested in football to attend their events.


We are now arguing about McKenna Cup attendances which are irrelevant to the general statement and dont actually counter it in any way as AN Mouse has excellently argued while i was sleeping.
A N Mouse did the contesting and argued very badly in my opinion.

[paul_oshea]

The fact that you spent time in Dunmore and Glenamaddy, two of the biggest most boring sh1tholes I've ever known should dispel you from any discussion. :D


Apart from AI, we cannot sustain proportionatecrowds over an extended season (8-9 months) in any code

That word throws me somewhat, given what we have discussed earlier. The GAA season is not over 8-9 months. You are still looking at it from a footballing context, and not some global context you referred to earlier, the NFL season in America runs over seventeen weeks along/in addition to the NFL playoffs, for example. Every code and season is different and you have to see it from that individual sport, if you are going to use some "global" definition of said term.

Finally, GAA (again) is - somewhat - different in that for the All-Ireland series the structures for ticket distribution is through clubs, not just for the two participating counties hence you get a lot of neutrals. These will obviously swell attendances and though you would not likely see them at other County games of those participating teams, you would likely see them at their local club/county games.

We shall agree to differ stu, my old chum :D

[SkStu]

The fact that you spent time in Dunmore and Glenamaddy, two of the biggest most boring sh1tholes I've ever known should dispel you from any discussion. :D

Im certainly not going to argue that one!


That word throws me somewhat, given what we have discussed earlier. The GAA season is not over 8-9 months. You are still looking at it from a footballing context, and not some global context you referred to earlier, the NFL season in America runs over seventeen weeks along/in addition to the NFL playoffs, for example. Every code and season is different and you have to see it from that individual sport, if you are going to use some "global" definition of said term.

Finally, GAA (again) is - somewhat - different in that for the All-Ireland series the structures for ticket distribution is through clubs, not just for the two participating counties hence you get a lot of neutrals. These will obviously swell attendances and though you would not likely see them at other County games of those participating teams, you would likely see them at their local club/county games.

We shall agree to differ stu, my old chum :D

Fair enough old buddy, old pal - pistols at dawn instead?

[A N Mouse]

You don't get it and you profess to know next to nothing, then I suggest you just accept the testimony of people who do or keep an open mind at least :)

Might I suggest you heed your own counsel when it comes to the loi :p


So, GAA supporters who are connected to their sport through a club based structure are event junkies if they go to a lowly McKenna cup final and not go to see their county in some (almost) practice game with a 3rd string team against a University team? Am I understanding you right?

Assuming there was no reason they couldn't attend those games, nfl games or championship games and that was the only game they choose to attend what would you call them? Selective? Refined?

I make no distinction between football, gaa, rugby or whatever. If there no other impedemnt to attendence then your support can be called into question.

If 4k is some kind of average for league games, why do we still hear about poor attendance?

Could it be because of the size of the bandwagons for big days out at hq?

Proportionate is a good word. A loi club would be doing well to bring 10k on a big day out. I'd suggest that given that, loi attendance is proportionate to nfl. Ergo both suffer from not holding to people who go for a day out - call them what you will.

[Charlie Darwin]

GAA is an interesting one since, uniquely I think, the majority of the season is basically just a warm-up for what can be as little as one game in the summer. It would be like if the whole LOI season was just to determine rankings for a 20-team play-off, but possibly even less meaningful than that. In that context, it's actually quite remarkable they get decent crowds for any game outside the AIs.

[nigel-harps1954]

Getting a 9k attendance to Tyrone v Donegal is 'normal' in Ulster.


Tyrone v Donegal is not a derby match as such, Derry and Donegal is derby material.
I don't know about Donegal but Tyrone have a hard core of 4k for league attendances. An attractive fixture between Ulster teams just attracts more dedicated supporters to come, attracts the away supporters to travel. Even a low level (pre NFL competition) McKenna cup final in Ulster will attract a 7k to 9k attendance.


Not following GAA as much as I used to.

What I do know, is that Donegals first home game this season attracted a mere 300 people in the McKenna cup.

Donegal v Tyrone in the National League attracting 9,000 was quite a substantial figure for such a game. I would go as far as suggesting it's one of the largest attendances the National League groups have attracted in quite a few years.
All the rest of Donegals league games have had less than 5,000 at them. And there's still HUGE hype around the Donegal team here. Getting miles of media coverage ahead of any other sport.

[Crosby87]

This is good stuff.
So is the verdict for a National Academy or against? :D

I think this websites biggest crime is that only the selected few (I call them the 3 wisemen) can make polls. I think it would be awesome if we all could.

[Bungle]

A National Academy would be brilliant, but I think League Of Ireland clubs having proper academies is the logical next step. If the best young kids at Crumlin United, Lourdes Celtic, Cherry Orchard and the hundreds of other local clubs were going to Rovers or Pats, or the lads at Home Farm and St Kevin's etc were going to Bohs, then the standard of the LOI would ultimately improve immensely in the following years I think.

10-15 years ago, it was hard enough for young players going to England and trying to make it at some of the biggest clubs in the world. Now, they are up against the bright young things from Rio or Lagos, as well as the talented local lads. I think as well that young fellas aren't as tough or independent as they used to be (big generalisation I know). A mate of mine has a lad that Liverpool are keen on. Lovely young fella and very good young player but I'd be surprised if he's ever even washed a plate in his life. It's hard to see a fella like that making the grade at a hue club like Liverpool coping with the mental hardships of being away from home at such a young age, when all his life he's had it so easy.
For such young lads, a proper academy league might be the difference between them becoming league of ireland regulars or moving to a Liverpool when they are a bit maturer at 18 or 19, than ending up in the football scrapheap disillusioned by 16 or 17.

[paul_oshea]

Dont worry Bungle if he is that good he will have someone to wash his plates, most likely an agent.

[Charlie Darwin]

A National Academy would be brilliant, but I think League Of Ireland clubs having proper academies is the logical next step. If the best young kids at Crumlin United, Lourdes Celtic, Cherry Orchard and the hundreds of other local clubs were going to Rovers or Pats, or the lads at Home Farm and St Kevin's etc were going to Bohs, then the standard of the LOI would ultimately improve immensely in the following years I think.
It will be a long, long time before LOI clubs will be able to compete with the transfer fees the English clubs pay for these kids, let alone be able to offer them a better standard of training.

[Bungle]

It will be a long, long time before LOI clubs will be able to compete with the transfer fees the English clubs pay for these kids, let alone be able to offer them a better standard of training.

Right now, if you are a young lad with great ability, you are not drawn to a league of Ireland club, but one of the top schoolboy clubs where you will be noticed. That has to change. The 16 year old Noe Baba's or Conor Cliffords may still go to England, but at least the youth set up in this country can be in place properly for all our other talented young players, with all the LOI teams having a good academy structure. Young players leave FC Copenhagen and Partizan Belgrade for Man City and Chelsea...it doesn't mean that those clubs don't have a proper youth set up.

Obviously, a club like Rovers would not be able to afford the coaches that an Arsenal would. However, it doesn't mean that a decent standard of coaching can't be produced. The reports I've heard about the coaches at clubs like St Kevin's and Crumlin have been nothing short of glowing, and i'm sure there are some very good foreign coaches in other countries like Argentina, Brazil, Croatia etc would be more than willing to coach a LOI academy for a good salary and living expenses all paid for.

[Crosby87]

As long as they don't use paper plates which would go against your whole hatred for littering.

[paul_oshea]

"If it was a fine summer's day and you had a crowd of 18,000 I would be concerned but I wouldn't be concerned about Sunday – 18,000 is a great crowd for a National League match – if League of Ireland clubs had that they'd be delighted.

Ha, great minds and all that, interesting he directly put that about LOI, especially after what we were saying. He obviously thinks that the main competitor to GAA at this time of year is the LOI.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/oneill-blames-mothers-day-and-cold-for-poor-turnout-29123356.html

It is a great crowd as he says, but you should expect that with the Dubs really.

[culloty82]

A number of regional academies would suit purposes better than a single national one - two would be required for Dublin (northside and southside), three for the rest of Leinster (north-east, midlands and south-east), two for Connacht-Ulster (west and north-west), along with two for Munster (mid-west and south, assuming that Tipp-Waterford is covered by the south-east). The areas would be of roughly equal population, and because of the regional divisions, no player would have to travel significant distances to benefit from the expert training.

[tetsujin1979]

sort of related, the development for a national sports campus at Abbotstown has been given the go ahead: http://irishsport.ie/wpress/index.php/2013/03/national-sports-campus-to-proceed-with-e7m-construction-plan/

[Charlie Darwin]

I always assumed the FAI owned the land out in Abbotstown. I suppose that was silly in hindsight.

[BonnieShels]

I always assumed the FAI owned the land out in Abbotstown. I suppose that was silly in hindsight.

What did they do with the Merrion Square cash?

[BonnieShels]

sort of related, the development for a national sports campus at Abbotstown has been given the go ahead: http://irishsport.ie/wpress/index.php/2013/03/national-sports-campus-to-proceed-with-e7m-construction-plan/

ICU not involved...