The case for a National Academy

[BonnieShels]

Gah...

[Charlie Darwin]

Interesting comment from Trap that is somewhat relevant to this discussion:


"Against Spain, you saw an idea of how we can try to look to the future." Trapattoni said. "For McClean, it wasn't the best time to put him on, but coming on like this will help him understand what international football is all about. Some of the players who are talked about in Ireland need to come in and play these games and get used to it. But it is not easy, because teams play different systems in international football, unlike in England where everybody plays the same way."

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/euro-2012/irish-news/euro-2012-lack-of-resources-point-to-spell-in-the-wilderness-3140403.html

[BonnieShels]

Interesting comment from Trap that is somewhat relevant to this discussion:



http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/euro-2012/irish-news/euro-2012-lack-of-resources-point-to-spell-in-the-wilderness-3140403.html

That's a frightening comment isn't it?

[Charlie Darwin]

Is it not true, though? Roy Hodgson certainly isn't doing anything to dispute it.

[BonnieShels]

It is very true. But we are stuck at this crossroads. We want to remove ourselves from the shackles of Perfidious Albion but if the majority of our players play there what can we do?

[Adrock]

I think the national academy idea, if handled correctly, could be an excellent idea, though I have little faith in the FAI of doing a professional job of anything.

The English academy system we are reliant one is failing us pure and simple ; whether it works for England or not, it certainly doesn't work for us. If you doubt this just try and put together a team under the age of 30 of players from the Republic (not talking about plastics and our recent recruits from the North here as they are not relevant to the issue) who have followed the traditional route through english youth teams in to senior football. The resulting team probably wouldn't make the top 100 FIFA rankings.

The few younger players breaking through recently actually largely came through the much maligned League of Ireland (Long, Mcclean Coleman etc) rather than the english system, and these are the ones that werent rated highly enough at 16 to get picked up by english academies. For all its justifiable vilification the LOI is actually doing to some degree its job as in any smaller football country of nurturing local talent before they move on to bigger leagues when they are ready. The difference between our league and say Switzerland/Denmark and others is that the players leave earlier still as the LOI has little to offer them a professionals and the most talented youth players get excluded as for the most part they have already been chewed up and spit back out by english clubs before they were ready to make the move overseas.

What might work is having an Ireland academy team or even better a couple based here but competing in the english academy system if they will permit us. This would take some investment to make it financially viable and worthwhile to the young players themselves. Then they could have a senior version competing in the LOI for when they get beyond the age of 18 rather than going to rot in the english reserve team system which happens to so many of our young players. The better ones will get the chance to move on to english or perhaps continental teams inevitably but in the meantime they will get the chance to play properly competitive senior football to help their development and Irish supporters will have the opportunity to see our brightest young players playing in our league before they move on, like most countries do, so everyone gains.

Otherwise we can wait a century and wait to see if the LOI evolves enough to start doing this job anyway but who has the patience for that?

[texidub]

There should be compulsory Spanish lessons for all Irish youth players so a) they can score Spanish girls and b) go to Spain at different times during their development and learn what they can from some of the best youth systems. Catalonia is very Irish-friendly too.

IMO, it's the language gap more than anything that's preventing players looking beyond Engerland for their football education.

[BonnieShels]

So they should learn Catalan then?

[mark12345]

Originally Posted by mark12345

"Been away for a few years but I had this comforting feeling in the back of my mind that while the lads in the national team, with the exception of three or four, have little or no technical ability, at least the coaches at home were working on correcting that problem. But I guess from reading the posts on here that is not the case. Very troubling indeed to think that for midfield creativity in ten / fifteen years time we'll be looking at young fellas similar to Glenn Whelan and Keith Andrews. Something has to be done by the FAI to fix this poverty in the Irish game."

Just looked at the beginning of this thread and found this post from a year ago. In light of what has happened to the Irish midfield in the past week well.......... And in light of everyone on here calling for a new focus on the technical side of the game, then the problem is more acute than ever. I also read a post on here about kids playing in Dublin who are winning leagues by the long ball game and are playing 11 a side at a young age. Those two together go a long way to explaining the problem.

I can't believe that coaches at home are still coaching the long ball game. Just boggles the mind. Also blows the mind that kids are playing 11 aside before the age of 14. That's a recipe for disaster also.

I can tell you that I learned more about football in six months in America then I did in 23 years at home. Playing against different ethnic groups you very quickly saw the flaws in the long ball game when chasing shadows in 100 degrees of heat.

[eekers]

Here's an obvious illustration of the problem
http://www.belvederefc.com/honours/trophy-cabinet.910.html
http://cherryorchardfc.ie/honours.html

[Stuttgart88]

Bobby Charlton once called Home Farm FC the best soccer nursery in the world.

[BonnieShels]

Here's an obvious illustration of the problem
http://www.belvederefc.com/honours/trophy-cabinet.910.html
http://cherryorchardfc.ie/honours.html

But that's because their is no incentive for them to do otherwise.

The fact that there are U7 trophies and leagues to win is the problem, not that the clubs are winning them.

Also they are 2 fantastic Junior Clubs that have contributed a lot to Irish soccer. I say that as a person with the red and black in my wardrobe.

[texidub]

yea there was a time Home Farm when was supplying loads of players to English/Scottish clubs. I wonder is that still the case? Didn't they fade a bit and Tolka Rovers and others pick up where they left off?

BonnieShels: it's reckoned that only about 35% of the Catalan population have Catalan as their native language, despite what the politicized hipsters would tell ya. Anyway they are forgiving when foreigners speak Spanish. And learning Catalan would be moer limiting than learning Spanish. So, no.

[BonnieShels]

yea there was a time Home Farm when was supplying loads of players to English/Scottish clubs. I wonder is that still the case? Didn't they fade a bit and Tolka Rovers and others pick up where they left off?

BonnieShels: it's reckoned that only about 35% of the Catalan population have Catalan as their native language, despite what the politicized hipsters would tell ya. Anyway they are forgiving when foreigners speak Spanish. And learning Catalan would be moer limiting than learning Spanish. So, no.

Ah janey Texi. I was joshing. I do like your term politicized hipsters. I may steal that.

[Charlie Darwin]

There was a Home Farm age group a few years back that produced something like a dozen players who were picked up by top clubs, including Darren O'Dea, Owen Garvan, Chris McCann and Shane Supple.

As for playing 11-a-side before the age of 14? I'd say most of us here probably started when we were 6 or 7.

[texidub]

And there was a Home Farm schoolboy team that went unbeaten for four years too wasn't there? I remember losing 1-0 to them in a cup semi-final in about the third year of that run. Don't think any of them went on to do anything though, which seems strange enough. There's a disconnect between schoolboy football and the international side. Also the fact that second gen players developed elsewhere, with no connection to Irish game (beyond a passport and, in fairness, often a genuine sense of pride too) can get into the International side with ease can't be good for the heads of players who play the game here. I don't remember Pat Byrne ever disgracing himself in an Irish shirt.. and Liam O'Brien was a better player at Shamrock Rovers before he went to Man United.. both players that Jack Charlton picked.

Can't see these things ever changing until the league here starts getting more support.

[Charlie Darwin]

That was the same Home Farm team I think.

[backstothewall]

Can't see these things ever changing until the league here starts getting more support.

I can't see the league getting more support until things change. But how can that paradox be broken?

On the idea of an academies. Part of improving things has to be raising the profile of the LOI & IL. As kids are coming out of the academies at whatever age it is decided they should be moving on into local clubs, there would be the potential to have some sort of american style talent draft. It would make for a great hour or so of TV if nothing else.

[Spudulika]

I played against that Home Farm team back in the late-80's, if I remember rightly. One thing I do remember is Eddie VanBoxtel playing for them. We played them in Blanch, lost 3-1 but not many of their players did much in the pro game. It's a difficulty that setting out to win at all costs in youth level is very destructive in the senior game. I also remember them being filthy. I was switched from left wing to right full because of injuries and they were so nasty.

[Stuttgart88]

I thought Gary Kelly was part of that team, no? My friend's dad coached Kenny Cunningham there and advised him to stay at school, he'd never make it!

[Mario]

There should be compulsory Spanish lessons for all Irish youth players so a) they can score Spanish girls and b) go to Spain at different times during their development and learn what they can from some of the best youth systems. Catalonia is very Irish-friendly too.

IMO, it's the language gap more than anything that's preventing players looking beyond Engerland for their football education.

So true, most Irish players are playing in England but the big English teams who are playing in Europe every season are not signing many Irish players anymore since they are combing the globe for the cream of the worlds top technical players.

So alot of our best players are missing out on playing other top european players every second week for half the season and this is part of the reason Irish football is in decline.

I wonder say much is the likes of Keith Andrews earning at West Brom? Would he get the same money and get his game for the likes of say FC Copenhagen where he might get much more European experience?

[BonnieShels]

It's this alone that I think McGeady moving to Russia was important

[mark12345]

So true, most Irish players are playing in England but the big English teams who are playing in Europe every season are not signing many Irish players anymore since they are combing the globe for the cream of the worlds top technical players.

So alot of our best players are missing out on playing other top european players every second week for half the season and this is part of the reason Irish football is in decline. I wonder say much is the likes of Keith Andrews earning at West Brom? Would he get the same money and get his game for the likes of say FC Copenhagen where he might get much more European experience?

Half way to solving the problem with posts likes this. At least we're identifying the issue and we can put a plan in place to help the youths.

[passinginterest]

Heard a great argument the other day, forget national acadameys and the like, what's holding back our players is the fact that the FAI no longer allow players to go to the UK on trial at 11 and 12 years of age. Apparently not shipping our youngsters across to England at a young enough age, when 90% of them will fail and have their love of the game destroyed, is actually what's going wrong. We need to get them on the cattle boats to England before they're out of primary school and all our problems will be solved. Simple. This was a 100% serious argument put to me.

[brine3]

Heard a great argument the other day, forget national acadameys and the like, what's holding back our players is the fact that the FAI no longer allow players to go to the UK on trial at 11 and 12 years of age. Apparently not shipping our youngsters across to England at a young enough age, when 90% of them will fail and have their love of the game destroyed, is actually what's going wrong. We need to get them on the cattle boats to England before they're out of primary school and all our problems will be solved. Simple. This was a 100% serious argument put to me.

Imagine how much better Roy Keane would have been if he had left Ireland aged 12 instead of aged 19! :rolleyes:

[gastric]

While my views have not been in line with others in regards to the possibility of a National Academy, I think we all agree that we would need a stronger league to justify such a move.
The A League in Australia has one great advantage over the LOI. There are 10 teams in it and no relegation system. This ensures that the financial threat associated with relegation does not exist, and in turn, gives the clubs greater confidence going forward. The clubs are also salary capped to ensure competitiveness.
I am not saying that the league is brilliant or the answer to all our problems, but it does produce international players and many players play in it when older like Kewell and Emerton. I would also say that I don't think they have produced players of the quality of Doyle, McClean etc.

I think to also justify the point I am making, the English Rugby Union Clubs often complain about the fact that the Irish provinces are given an unfair advantage as they do not have to face relegation battles like they do. There may be some truth to it considering Irish sides have been champions for 5 out of the last 7 years.

Lads, before any of you decide to ridicule me for this inclusion, I felt it was worth mentioning in terms of the general debate on here and I am not saying it is the solution.

[BonnieShels]

Glossing over the rugby argument.

There is more money in the A-League than in the LOI. It is not competing with Junior Football.
When you have a league in a sand bowl of a country it's easy to just plonk a team or two into a city and go "there it is lads".
Australia's soccer history is not something we should want to replicate. Completely different story to our issues.
Also, there was no relegation in the LOI until the First Division was created in the 80's. We weren't exactly kicking arse internationally then either.

We need to look at similar countries to ourselves (Croatia, Sweden, Denmark) and then when we have appropriate structures in place then we can aspire to be like Netherlands and Belgium etc.

[gastric]

I just found this article again about why Shane Supple retired. It gives an excellent insight into a player who was realistic, honest and homesick for much of his time in England. This is the sort of player who may have excelled in Ireland, if the right set up existed. Worth a look!


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1213474/EXCLUSIVE-I-quit-escape-players-didn-t-care-says-Shane-Supple.html

[Charlie Darwin]

While my views have not been in line with others in regards to the possibility of a National Academy, I think we all agree that we would need a stronger league to justify such a move.
The A League in Australia has one great advantage over the LOI. There are 10 teams in it and no relegation system. This ensures that the financial threat associated with relegation does not exist, and in turn, gives the clubs greater confidence going forward. The clubs are also salary capped to ensure competitiveness.
I am not saying that the league is brilliant or the answer to all our problems, but it does produce international players and many players play in it when older like Kewell and Emerton. I would also say that I don't think they have produced players of the quality of Doyle, McClean etc.

I think to also justify the point I am making, the English Rugby Union Clubs often complain about the fact that the Irish provinces are given an unfair advantage as they do not have to face relegation battles like they do. There may be some truth to it considering Irish sides have been champions for 5 out of the last 7 years.

Lads, before any of you decide to ridicule me for this inclusion, I felt it was worth mentioning in terms of the general debate on here and I am not saying it is the solution.
The reason players return the A-league when they're older is that they want to live at home. There's not the same geographic/cultural gulf between Ireland and the UK. Plus there's more money, etc.

[BonnieShels]

It was very interesting re-reading this thread given that it was a year out from Euro2012 and the nadir that it was.

[Bungle]

Bobby Charlton once called Home Farm FC the best soccer nursery in the world.

What a schoolboy club they were!! Bit concerning that Home Farm, Belvo and Cherry Orchard don't seem to be all that well represented in some of our underage sides these days, though in fairness maybe it is partly due to other clubs really coming on.

[Charlie Darwin]

Possibly because they're supplying players to English academies at younger ages, but also because a lot of players are emerging from clubs in suburban north Dublin rather than the traditional areas around the city. There are still players jumping across from Orchard and Kevin's - most recently Alex O'Hanlon and Jack Byrne - but it's good to see more of a spread. It's also good to see players from the traditional feeder clubs going into the LOI and then making the jump across the water, like Conor Sammon, Enda Stevens and Stephen Quinn.

[squareball]

A big problem I'd see is that even if the players from Belvedere, Cherry Orchard or who ever wants to stay at home they still have to move clubs. So at 15 or 16 your friends are moving to United, Liverpool or whoever your going to St. Pats or Shamrock Rovers or whoever. You are seen as a failure. If there was a progression from playing youth football to playing LOI with the one club players would feel that they will get their chance if they are good enough. There would be less pressure on players to leave Ireland as they would still be playing at a reasonably high level and would have a bit of loyalty to the club. This would also encourage players to play LOI for last year or two as they would be going back to a club they already played for. Players would know that they will get a contract if they continue improving and would probably avail of a better standard of coaching if the likes of Shamrock Rovers and other LOI teams were given support by the FAI for a couple of years to develop their own players and coaches. You could also have a national academy for the cream of the crop feeding into these clubs too.

I think a Celtic League system would work if done properly. It would probably be a 16 team league starting off with four clubs going from each country. You would need a second and maybe even a third division to feed into the league with the next four from each country going into these. The problem in Ireland would be to spread the clubs going in geographically so that there wouldn't be a concentration of clubs from Dublin which would impact on fan bases. You could have Sligo, Derry, Limerick and Shamrock Rovers in the top division. These clubs would have the most chance of competing as they would get decent crowds and all have decent infrastructure with Limerick using Thomond Park. All the clubs would need to have teams from under 12 up and this would help us produce a better standard of player. Young Irish kids would have something to aim for without moving abroad. Celtic and Rangers would still have a big head-start but we could eventually catch up. In theory a youth league between the teams in a Celtic League would improve the standard of all four national teams. How many Irish lads are playing in Scotland at a similar level to the LOI just because they can play professionally.

Between the 4 countries you have a population of 15 million people. So you would have a bigger number of people interested in watching the league. This could lead to TV deals with the BBC, Sky, ITV and RTE. All would be interested if the league had a higher profile. Our population and support base is too small to support a professional league and we need domestic professional teams to improve. At the moment we are at the mercy of the English system as to how our young players develop and this clearly hasn't worked. The young people would get behind teams if it was marketed well from scratch and over a few years people would get interested like the rugby. Many of Munster, Leinster and Connaught Rugby fans wouldn't have gotten interested in rugby only for the higher profile.

[gastric]

Brady enters this debate and makes some very pertinent points about schoolboy soccer in Ireland.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/schoolboy-clubs-must-change-mindset-brady-29108586.html

[peadar1987]

A big problem I'd see is that even if the players from Belvedere, Cherry Orchard or who ever wants to stay at home they still have to move clubs. So at 15 or 16 your friends are moving to United, Liverpool or whoever your going to St. Pats or Shamrock Rovers or whoever. You are seen as a failure. If there was a progression from playing youth football to playing LOI with the one club players would feel that they will get their chance if they are good enough. There would be less pressure on players to leave Ireland as they would still be playing at a reasonably high level and would have a bit of loyalty to the club. This would also encourage players to play LOI for last year or two as they would be going back to a club they already played for. Players would know that they will get a contract if they continue improving and would probably avail of a better standard of coaching if the likes of Shamrock Rovers and other LOI teams were given support by the FAI for a couple of years to develop their own players and coaches. You could also have a national academy for the cream of the crop feeding into these clubs too.

I think a Celtic League system would work if done properly. It would probably be a 16 team league starting off with four clubs going from each country. You would need a second and maybe even a third division to feed into the league with the next four from each country going into these. The problem in Ireland would be to spread the clubs going in geographically so that there wouldn't be a concentration of clubs from Dublin which would impact on fan bases. You could have Sligo, Derry, Limerick and Shamrock Rovers in the top division. These clubs would have the most chance of competing as they would get decent crowds and all have decent infrastructure with Limerick using Thomond Park. All the clubs would need to have teams from under 12 up and this would help us produce a better standard of player. Young Irish kids would have something to aim for without moving abroad. Celtic and Rangers would still have a big head-start but we could eventually catch up. In theory a youth league between the teams in a Celtic League would improve the standard of all four national teams. How many Irish lads are playing in Scotland at a similar level to the LOI just because they can play professionally.

Between the 4 countries you have a population of 15 million people. So you would have a bigger number of people interested in watching the league. This could lead to TV deals with the BBC, Sky, ITV and RTE. All would be interested if the league had a higher profile. Our population and support base is too small to support a professional league and we need domestic professional teams to improve. At the moment we are at the mercy of the English system as to how our young players develop and this clearly hasn't worked. The young people would get behind teams if it was marketed well from scratch and over a few years people would get interested like the rugby. Many of Munster, Leinster and Connaught Rugby fans wouldn't have gotten interested in rugby only for the higher profile.


I don't think our population is too small to support a professional league, if only they'd actually come out and watch the one we have. Norway manage fine, so do Scotland, Denmark, Finland, Croatia, Uruguay, and Slovenia, for example.

I do think a Celtic league would work in principle, but I don't think the Scottish clubs would ever go along with it, it would take a very long time for them to ever see the benefits over what they have now, and I don't think 8 out of the 12 SPL clubs are going to vote themselves into a lower division.

I'm still firmly convinced that if the LOI was marketed well from scratch we could average almost 5,000 a match in the Premier division after 10 or 15 years. And I think with a vibrant domestic league with a bit of money in it from increased exposure, the clubs would have the resources to keep young players at home and develop them.

[tetsujin1979]

I don't think our population is too small to support a professional league, if only they'd actually come out and watch the one we have. Norway manage fine, so do Scotland, Denmark, Finland, Croatia, Uruguay, and Slovenia, for example.

I do think a Celtic league would work in principle, but I don't think the Scottish clubs would ever go along with it, it would take a very long time for them to ever see the benefits over what they have now, and I don't think 8 out of the 12 SPL clubs are going to vote themselves into a lower division.

I'm still firmly convinced that if the LOI was marketed well from scratch we could average almost 5,000 a match in the Premier division after 10 or 15 years. And I think with a vibrant domestic league with a bit of money in it from increased exposure, the clubs would have the resources to keep young players at home and develop them.
how many of those countries have draws from other sports comparative to Ireland?
e.g. in Limerick very few people will go to every Munster, Limerick GAA and Limerick FC games simply because of the cost involved. Munster are the big draw because of their success and the quality of opposition they attract, Limerick GAA attract a large support both from the city and the county, leaving Limerick FC with its relatively limited number of supporters

For the record, I regularly attend Munster games on the weekend, Limerick FC games when I can, and make it to as many Limerick GAA games as I can, but my preference is in that order.

[peadar1987]

how many of those countries have draws from other sports comparative to Ireland?
e.g. in Limerick very few people will go to every Munster, Limerick GAA and Limerick FC games simply because of the cost involved. Munster are the big draw because of their success and the quality of opposition they attract, Limerick GAA attract a large support both from the city and the county, leaving Limerick FC with its relatively limited number of supporters

For the record, I regularly attend Munster games on the weekend, Limerick FC games when I can, and make it to as many Limerick GAA games as I can, but my preference is in that order.

Norway has skiing, which is huge. I know the seasons don't overlap, but neither do the football and rugby seasons. Slovenia and Croatia have basketball and ice hockey, both of which are absolutely massive. In Scotland, football is pretty much the only show in town, and I know less about Denmark and Uruguay, but as per wiki, handball is very popular in Denmark, and I know they have a semi-pro volleyball league as well.

Using GAA and rugby as an excuse for why people don't support the LOI is just that in my opinion; an excuse.

[SkStu]

My two cents but people don't really support rugby or GAA either if you think of "support" from the perspective of a 8/9 month season. In GAA it's a compressed schedule for all Ireland that may only last a couple of games and the league continues to be poorly "supported". Rugby crowds fluctuate wildly depending on the competition and opposition and you have to bear in mind that these are provincial teams which I think will attract more floating or occasional attending fans.

I think our biggest challenge is that we simply just don't have a true fan culture in Ireland.

[paul_oshea]

There was 9000 last weekend at the Ulster North West "Derby", for a league game in February. If a LOI Dublin Derby could get something close to that you would be laughing.

Things are supported in Ireland its just not necessarily supported in the way people see in football.

[tetsujin1979]

Using GAA and rugby as an excuse for why people don't support the LOI is just that in my opinion; an excuse.

Ignoring them as a reason is equally myopic

[peadar1987]

Ignoring them as a reason is equally myopic

Agreed, but a lot of people seem to say "Ah sure there's rugby and GAA, so why bother, it's impossible to get numbers up anyway". The situation in other countries would seem to disprove that. Ireland is not some sort of magical special case, plenty of countries of similar size can sustain several sports at a high level.

[paul_oshea]

Ah, but it is a magical special case, its our magical special place.

[SkStu]

There was 9000 last weekend at the Ulster North West "Derby", for a league game in February. If a LOI Dublin Derby could get something close to that you would be laughing.

Things are supported in Ireland its just not necessarily supported in the way people see in football.

Honestly, all I'm seeing in your example is event-junkyism... in other words that sort of attendance for the league is the exception as opposed to the rule. Don't get me wrong, I agree, it'd be great if LOI could get a few one off crowds of 9000! But I hope you're not trying to argue that the league is well "supported"...?

[paul_oshea]

I'm saying its not getting 9000 at every game, but I'd suggest throughout the league campaign you will see almost that many for one game a week or if not at least every 2nd week, and average them out with all the All ireland matches and back door games, and you have a fairly high average, over a per-longed period. If you even got that for one game every second week you would be doing well(in the LOI), that's the point I am making. How many games in the whole season of the LOI, would get say 4+K? Id imagine it has to be a Shamrocks rovers game(even in Cork) to pull in that crowd?

If you take it in the overall context, even if its event junkyism as you refer to, it would be a huge increase in LOI attendances to match something similar.

I think a change in mindset, not least in what people think is required to support would be most welcome and would start something off.

[geysir]

Attending a GAA national league game in winter is hardly the stuff of event-junkeyism.

I wouldn't have any faith in a Celtic league competition that Peadar suggested, not even to supplement a LOI season. A league is a local affair.

[SkStu]

I'm saying its not getting 9000 at every game, but I'd suggest throughout the league campaign you will see almost that many for one game a week or if not at least every 2nd week, and average them out with all the All ireland matches and back door games, and you have a fairly high average, over a per-longed period. If you even got that for one game every second week you would be doing well(in the LOI), that's the point I am making. How many games in the whole season of the LOI, would get say 4+K? Id imagine it has to be a Shamrocks rovers game(even in Cork) to pull in that crowd?

If you take it in the overall context, even if its event junkyism as you refer to, it would be a huge increase in LOI attendances to match something similar.

I agree. That's why I said "Don't get me wrong, I agree, it'd be great if LOI could get a few one off crowds of 9000!"

My point is that we don't have a fan/support culture in Ireland when it comes to live sport. A crowd of 9000 for a big derby game doesn't prove otherwise. Given the catchment population its actually not that big. And the fact that this is considered a big (in terms of the league) crowd for a big derby whereas it might be 5 times that in the AI speaks to event junkyism, in my opinion.

[paul_oshea]

Ya, but like the rugby it could be seen the same way.

You see it from a footballing context of going every week to support your club or at least every second week for all the home games. In Gaelic football and hurling it is more chosen alright, but you are dealing with two sports over two different weekends generally. I think many of the NFL games would get 9000, in fact I'd imagine that at least 2 games got that, Mayo played dublin that weekend too, even though it was on TV id imagine the crowd was somewhere similar(unfortunately I cant find the actual attendance). Call it whatever you want, but if the LOI had attendances like that even sporadically it would make a big difference.

[SkStu]

I know how I see it. That's how I defined "support" in my first post. It's a pretty global concept/definition so I think it's a fair barometer to judge by. I included rugby in my original post because that's how I see it too, for the most part event junkyism as opposed to fan culture. Nothing you are posting is realistically challenging that statement.

And.............. I agree. That's why I said "Don't get me wrong, I agree, it'd be great if LOI could get a few one off crowds of 9000!". I can only agree with one of your points so many times!

[paul_oshea]

We could only realistically find out if it is based on attendances and comparisons.

Because club games can get very big attendances as well in Gaelic football and hurling especially out of the group stages within County, then provincial, then All-Ireland. All these things have to be taken into consideration in GAA, again its relative to the size of the catchment area as well or per head. There is far more to support in GAA between things like the relevant cups pre-NFL/NHL, the NFL/NHL, the club championships, the county championships and All-Ireland. It would be impossible and wholly unrealistic to think that a "supporter" would have go to all to not be considered an event junkie.

Actually the more I think about it, I don't think event junkyism is correct for GAA in Ireland, sure you get more attendances at the bigger all-ireland matches, but relative you get big attendances at club games in championship too.

[SkStu]

You're taking this into irrelevant territory. Youre getting hung up on and offended by my references to event-junkyism.

The bones of my initial post again were.... We don't have good, representative, regular and sustained attendances in any sport on the island. We do have events that achieve higher than normal attendances but these are largely the exception and/or are not sustained longer than a couple of weeks with the exception of the AI which is essentially a summer long event.

I'm not saying we don't have fans in any of these codes. We do. We just don't have a fan culture as a nation when it comes to attending sports which would see proportionate and sustained attendances across all relevant sports.

And of course, I'd love if the LoI could creatively tap into some of the event junkyism. But we don't have the expertise and resources to do it ourselves and we don't have the support from the FAI to enable it.