Should McCarthy, Walters, Wilson and Gibson be given a future callup or ignored?

[weldoninhio]

If i was any of the 4 players, and especially McCarthy and Gibson, i'd be making myself unavailable for selection until Trappatoni was ousted. Results against NI, Scotland, Wales and Macedonia are hardly world-shaking news. Italy was a useless, end-of-season nothing game.

[Kingdom]

Cox is slightly ahead of Long and might even be ahead of Doyle in the eyes of the management.

I'm not sure he is Noely. I think the circumstances around these games helped his cause no end. For a few reasons:


The weather expected for Saturday was extremely humid - it was sticky but nowhere near as bad as it could have been. A fresher Cox definitely had the edge over a weary Longy in that respect.

He definitely impressed during the Nations Cup. He had a decent rapport with Robbie

His attitude (allegedly) extremely impressed both the management and the squad from the moment he arrived. Buzzing to play and eager to take whatever chances came his way. Unfortunately Longy probably arrived on a bit of a downer.

Personally I felt Longy has been better being sprung from the bench ala Russia. I've no doubt he'll feature prominently in the new season.



It would not be a huge surprise to me if Keane and Cox line out against Slovakia.
To me, it would be a massive surprise if he starts Cox with Keane, not ahead of Long, but ahead of Doyle. That would be criticism worthy. Doyle offers something, and has done for a while that nobody has come close to doing since Quinn went au revoir. He is a totem up top, and works his nads off, all the while with an impressive skill set.


Long is now probably fourth choice forward.

In our eyes perhaps, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have eyes on Walters too. They seemed to be at pains to get the media to mention that Walters was genuinely absent and there was no problem.


And thats why I would not rule out the selection of the "gang of four" for the Croatia friendly. Things can change rapidly under Trap.

It's something that I'd use as a stick to beat him with though. International managers have to be pragmatic to an extent. Obviously he doesn't do it to spite himself, but there is more merit to returning Walters and say, Gibbo, than there is Stokes or Wilson. Wilson is covered potentially by a fit Cunningham, Ward, even Ciaran Clark. Stokes is competing with Robbie and probably Long. So there's no real need there.


As of today most fans would predict Trap starting Whelan and Andrews against Slovakia and Russia. I don't think he will. I'm just not sure who will come in if either Whelan or the more likely Andrews is "rested". I bet Trap has been watching dvd's of the home Russia defeat over and over again. He will look at who played, how they played and what went wrong. And he will not want a repeat performance. The Irish squad for the Croatia game will be very interesting.

I hear what you're saying. I agree too. He has to have realised that he was out-thought in Lansdowne. We're probably in a slightly unfortunate situation where our players that are first choice, don't really fit the system he needs to play to maximise the chances of 1/3 points in Moscow. Russia have/had a really fluid 5 behind what will surely be Pavlyuchenko. Shiranov, Zyrianov and Denisov totally ran amok. Shemsov is equally decent, and I wouldn't be surprised if Billy features for them in Sept. So how to stop them controlling the game deep in our half is what is key.

Wouldn't surprise me if Trap goes extremely narrow limiting the space in the middle, forcing Russia to play totally around us, rather than through and then out the back of us. How does he do that? Does he sacrifice the wingers? McGeady has to play because for all his faults, he is genuinely getting to a level now where he draws fouls to the level Duff was at, while he is more than capable of running deep at opponents with the ball, creating opportunities for others.

If he is to jettison the wingers, then surely he has to pick somewhat attacking full-backs, Ward and Coleman, or full backs capable of using the ball sufficiently in the middle and top 3rd - Foley and Clark perhaps? Which leads on to the next possibility - the use of John O'Shea or Kev Foley as a shield behind a midfield three or two?

Something like:

---------------------------Given--------------------------

FB-------------Dunne---------------Ledger-------------Fb

---------------------------Shield--------------------------

--------------------Andrews-------Whelan-----------------

----------------McGeady------------Keane----------------

---------------------------Doyle--------------------------

Something that has to be remembered about Dublin - we started like a train, could have been one up, and then absolutely gifted them a goal (Whatever about Whelan being blindsided, Given was totally at fault to begin with), which then allowed them to dictate the next hours football.

[Kingdom]

In theory that would be great but I'm sure there would be issues with clubs giving their consent. If a player is carrying a knock the club will want him there getting treatment and I'm sure training doesn't stop completely for those not called up to international squads. You would hope that they'd at least try to watch the game.

Point taken, but technically I was referring to the end of season games, where will I'm sure they're still injured, surely they get some sort of a break from treatment also.
Training during the season does continue for PL squads from what I've read - it's curtailed for sure, but doesn't stop.

[Kingdom]

I think Andrews is nailed on to start, certainly against Russia. If he watched the Russia DVD he'll see that Whelan must have been on tranquilisers and Green couldn't do his own job, let alone the job of two. Andrews may not be Pele, but he snaps at ankles and is hard to play through. He is very athletic too, so covers the ground well. Against Slovakia, Trap may well go for a better passer like Fahey or Gibson.

However, a lot will depend on who is match fit. Last October I don't think any of Whelan, Fahey, Andrews or Gibson was starting for their club. Nor was Given, Keane and one or two others.


There's a lot of accuracies there. I'm equally adept at criticising a players performance, but it has to be said, we were out of shape against Russia. Whelan hadn't featured much for Stoke, and was barely fit. Green to give him his credit was all over the place trying to win the ball, but (and it's been commented on before) the indiscipline in breaking the line of two is what allowed Whelan to be isolated. Whelan could be termed pedestrian at the best of times, but this added to his lack of match fitness left him badly exposed. That cannot be ignored, otherwise it's just poor analysis.

What I like about Andrews is, pardon the vulgarity, there's a bit of a cúnt about him. not in the Joey Barton sense, but that he's prepared to be in the opposition faces as much as possible while staying the right side of the law. He got to a new level of respect with me for his affront on Diarra in Dublin, but rose up a notch by outdoing himself in Paris.

[Noelys Guitar]

Zhirkov ran the show for Russia against Armenia on Saturday, especially in the second half. Everything went through him. Not beyond the bounds Trapatooni could stick Steven Hunt on him. That might mean sacrificing a winger or just playing Robbie up front on his own but I can see Trap doing something like that.

[Stuttgart88]

How can you break a line of two? :)

[Kingdom]

Zhirkov ran the show for Russia against Armenia on Saturday, especially in the second half. Everything went through him. Not beyond the bounds Trapatooni could stick Steven Hunt on him. That might mean sacrificing a winger or just playing Robbie up front on his own but I can see Trap doing something like that.

Zhirkov is a fine player. Given the room he could hurt us. The same could equally be said about McGeady or Duff. A feature of the Macedonia selection was Hunt on the right and McGeady on the left. All seemed to agree that this was in order for the player to cut in on the favoured boot and shoot/cross. I don't believe it was for that reason at all, even though it was a good aspect as it so happens.
Popov was one of three star Macedonian players, their left full. Their right back, was a second choice centre half. Playing McGeady on the right and Hunt on the left would have been a mistake - limiting us going forward, while exposing us at the back. McGeady isn't as good at tracking back as Hunt, a valid criticism. Hunt himself was criticised for his handling of Popov in the first half, but he didn't do a whole lot wrong, he tracked Popov's runs, forced him infield, and generally made a nuisance of himself - he just did a better job of it the second half.
As for McGeady, well he minced the right full time and again. So we got the best of both worlds.

then the merits have to be discussed. If we had to play one person up front, which would that one player be. If it's Robbie, then we sacrifice everything about his game to basically run around and put pressure on.

[Kingdom]

How can you break a line of two? :)

By drawing one of the two out?
:-)

[tetsujin1979]

For all the talk of the Italy win being a nothing win, I can't help but think if we had lost this "nothing" game, as we did against Australia, the press and fans would be all over Trapattoni for ruining the good run built up in the previous three games.

[Sullivinho]

wrt Noble, O'Hara etc. Stuff them. It's too late to declare. The dressing room is a strong and united place right now. The "stay aways" have their chance to come back in, but there's no room for any more. Guys like Meyler and McCann could play their way in, but no late-deciders.

Completely agree. I have a feeling life at Wolves will have softened O'Hara's cough though and he'll be looking to declare during the new season.

[DannyInvincible]

Completely agree. I have a feeling life at Wolves will have softened O'Hara's cough though and he'll be looking to declare during the new season.

Mick McCarthy's been urging him to declare as well: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/891755/mick-mccarthy-asks-jamie-o'hara-to-represent-ireland?cc=5739


"I am trying to nip his ears to play - I think he should," McCarthy told the Birmingham Mail. "I've been right in his ear hole - just pulling his leg - telling him we need him to play because he'd be terrific.

"I want to have a good Irish team - he does qualify as far as I'm aware and the FAI have been in touch with him. He hasn't committed one way or the other but I am quite persuasive."

Not sure how comfortable I'd be with him coming in and taking the place of a regular and committed squad member at this point given he obviously views us as a fall-back.

[SwanVsDalton]

Not sure how comfortable I'd be with him coming in and taking the place of a regular and committed squad member at this point given he obviously views us as a fall-back.

I agree, but I'd always but up for giving him a chance. Let these players prove their commitment after they declare if they're good enough. Problem is he'd have to understand he'd be at the very back of the queue, and would have to wait for an opportunity. He might get called up to a couple of squads for instance, and not get a game. Or maybe just get five minutes ala Wilson or Delaney. And I'm not convinced O'Hara would have the commitment/patience necessary to do that.

[Yard of Pace]

I love Mick and if Mick likes him then that's good enough for me. I'd say he'll wait until we qualify or not before declaring though. He seems the sort.

[DannyInvincible]

Hmm, Mick's gut-test over Stutts' gut-test? Controversial.

[TrapAPony]

If any player can come in and add to the squad then I'm all for it.

[Stuttgart88]

Stutts' gut would be more tolerant of a quality central midfielder than a late declarer in any other position. It would still have an issue, but nothing Milk of Magnesia mightn't sort out.

[French Toasht]

To be honest I used to be a lot more on the moral high horse side of things a few years ago and would have 100% said no straight up to the likes of O'Hara and Zat Knight etc.

But since 1994, we have had 7 qualification campaigns and been successful in only one of them. There have been so many glorious failures, so many play-off defeats, so many so near but yet so far moments and the simple fact is our squad has just been short of the quality required for qualification to these tournaments. If O'Hara, Pennant, Nolan, Noble etc improve our squad, despite their motivations, lets be having them. Lets be honest here, Liam Lawrence would have had equally as much desire to play for England as a kid and only decided to play for Ireland when he realised the possibility of him representing England was no longer on the cards. The only difference between him and the other named players is that he never outwardly expressed those thoughts.

I guess I'm a sell out, but I'm a sell out that wants to see us qualify for and compete at tournaments, and if these players can add to the chances of achieving that objective then I'm all for them.

[geysir]

O'Hara wouldn't temp me. That would be as grubby as a Bertie Aherne brown paper bag.
But for the sake of my country and only that, I'd turn a blind eye to a midfielder who meets Stutts' standards.

[gastric]

O' Hara IMO would be a great addition. He is creative, works hard and has the potential to be a leader. Put him together with Meyler and we have a midfield that can eventually replace Whelan and Andrews. As I have posted recently on another thread, Trap needs to get players onboard to increase our resources and be careful of his public utterances. Unity not division in the ranks is essential as we continue the Euro Campaign and start to think about a squad for the next World Cup.

[Noelys Guitar]

I'm still convinced Trapatonni goes public for a reason. He went public on Keane and Given not too long ago about the need for both players to be playing first team football. In Keane's case he went a little further suggesting younger players might come through. Keane plays one of his best games for Ireland last Saturday and Given has an excellent game as well. Maybe Gibson, McCarthy, Wilson and Walters will come back even better players when the new season restarts. The English game particulary rewards the mediocre like no other league and it is almost unique for a manager to go criticising his own players in public. Perhaps we need more of that not less.

[DannyInvincible]

Just came across this blog piece written by Cathal Dervin on the "no-shows" before the Macedonia game: http://www.irishcentral.com/story/sport/cathal_dervan/irish-soccer-squad-ingrates-a-disgrace-122936358.html

He makes a few sweeping assumptions though.


There’s a load of them missing by the way. Some have genuine excuses -- Richard Dunne is suspended and Damien Duff, Keiren Westwood and Kevin Doyle are all genuinely injured.

Others have claimed injuries without having them checked out by the Irish team doctor, notably Jonathon Walters.

And then there’s the no-shows, the players like Anthony Stokes, Marc Wilson, James McCarthy and, now, Darron Gibson who just didn’t make it.

I think that's entirely unfair on all those latter players, especially Walters, and barring maybe Stokes, to single them out for criticism that isn't even based on fact. He goes on to accuse them of treachery which should neither forgiven or forgotten...

[Sullivinho]

treachery which should neither forgiven or forgotten

Between guff like that and 20 page 'who shot JR!?' threads (elsewhere), I say start the new season this weekend.

[Junior]

Some great posts in this thread lads, interesting stuff.





Wouldn't surprise me if Trap goes extremely narrow limiting the space in the middle, forcing Russia to play totally around us, rather than through and then out the back of us. How does he do that? Does he sacrifice the wingers? McGeady has to play because for all his faults, he is genuinely getting to a level now where he draws fouls to the level Duff was at, while he is more than capable of running deep at opponents with the ball, creating opportunities for others.

If he is to jettison the wingers, then surely he has to pick somewhat attacking full-backs, Ward and Coleman, or full backs capable of using the ball sufficiently in the middle and top 3rd - Foley and Clark perhaps? Which leads on to the next possibility - the use of John O'Shea or Kev Foley as a shield behind a midfield three or two?

Something like:

---------------------------Given--------------------------

FB-------------Dunne---------------Ledger-------------Fb

---------------------------Shield--------------------------

--------------------Andrews-------Whelan-----------------

----------------McGeady------------Keane----------------

---------------------------Doyle--------------------------

Something that has to be remembered about Dublin - we started like a train, could have been one up, and then absolutely gifted them a goal (Whatever about Whelan being blindsided, Given was totally at fault to begin with), which then allowed them to dictate the next hours football.

I am no expert on how Russia line out but to me this type of formation wouldnt suit us one bit. Russia will have the lions share of the ball in Moscow, they have technically gifted players out wide and will be more than happy to make use of the abundance of space we would give them out there. Resulting in us being stretched out wide in order to put the tackles in / gain possession and hey presto we are back to a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 formation anyway. You say you wouldnt be surprised but I am assuming you are only talking hypothetcially anyway as Trap will not be moving away from the 4-4-2 anytime soon and certainly not in a game of this importance. If we do beat Slovakia in Dublin - This game will be absolutely massive.


On the other issue, any player worth his salt will now personally speak with Trappatoni to confirm his attendance or communicate his non-attendance. Regardless of what your club spokesman or medical staff say they were going to do, you would just do it yourself, in case. Its what I would do anyway.

[Metrostars]

To be honest I used to be a lot more on the moral high horse side of things a few years ago and would have 100% said no straight up to the likes of O'Hara and Zat Knight etc.

But since 1994, we have had 7 qualification campaigns and been successful in only one of them. There have been so many glorious failures, so many play-off defeats, so many so near but yet so far moments and the simple fact is our squad has just been short of the quality required for qualification to these tournaments. If O'Hara, Pennant, Nolan, Noble etc improve our squad, despite their motivations, lets be having them. Lets be honest here, Liam Lawrence would have had equally as much desire to play for England as a kid and only decided to play for Ireland when he realised the possibility of him representing England was no longer on the cards. The only difference between him and the other named players is that he never outwardly expressed those thoughts.

I guess I'm a sell out, but I'm a sell out that wants to see us qualify for and compete at tournaments, and if these players can add to the chances of achieving that objective then I'm all for them.

What if by some chance we win the next two qualifiers and we won the group to qualify for Euro 2012. O'Hara, Nolan etc might declare then. Would you be in favor of calling them up or stick with the likes of Andrews etc who got us there?

I don't mind taking on someone with an Irish Granny hidden somewhere but not if they are taking their sweet time over it. These guys have had ample time to declare already. If it means not qualifying then so be it.

[jbyrne]

What if by some chance we win the next two qualifiers and we won the group to qualify for Euro 2012. O'Hara, Nolan etc might declare then. Would you be in favor of calling them up or stick with the likes of Andrews etc who got us there?

i am a great believer in squad morale. when keane was gone from wc 2002 look at how our two ctre mids played above themselves and we got to the last 16 and should have made the 1/4 finals. bringing in late-comers who have spent an age thinking about joining us could have the opposite affect and ruin the hard fought squad morale we have recently acquired. i dont think we need ohara

[DannyInvincible]

What if by some chance we win the next two qualifiers and we won the group to qualify for Euro 2012. O'Hara, Nolan etc might declare then. Would you be in favor of calling them up or stick with the likes of Andrews etc who got us there?

Just to be certain on Nolan; he confirmed relatively recently that he doesn't actually qualify for us. He spoke about being a generation out or something.

[Crosby87]

Off topic but lets say we make Euro. What players likely would retire from Int'l play after the Tourney? Is it possible Dunne, Keane, Given, Duff, and maybe O'Shea will all need to be replaced at the same time? Obviously KK will be out by then also.
Hopefully some of these guys get their heads screwed on straight so we have options to replace them with if that were to happen, especially throwing injuries into the mix.

[the bear]

jaysus it would be a disaster to lose the 6 of them at the same time

i cant see any bar kilbane leaving after this campaign and id say he'd need to be pushed. but they will be goin sooner rather than later hopefully new leaders will emerge

[Sullivinho]

Off topic but lets say we make Euro. What players likely would retire from Int'l play after the Tourney? Is it possible Dunne, Keane, Given, Duff, and maybe O'Shea will all need to be replaced at the same time? Obviously KK will be out by then also.
Hopefully some of these guys get their heads screwed on straight so we have options to replace them with if that were to happen, especially throwing injuries into the mix.

Putting myself in their boots, if there's a World Cup happening in Brazil in less than two years and I've either played in just one previously or never tasted that experience...I'm not thinking about retirement just yet. I want to pack it in after the third place playoff in Rio. ;) But who knows what these guys are planning or who and what might emerge in the interim.

I'd like to think that Shay, the eldest, will see fit to partake in some of that longevity that keepers enjoy. Ala Seaman in '02 but minus the Brazilian cross/shot flying over his aged head. Hopefully Robbie will be along while records remain to be broken. Of the five, I'd consider him irreplaceable though. Unless we're incredibly fortunate, I doubt some kid with the capacity for 50+ international goals is gonna share the revolving door with him on his way out. Whereas right now you could tentatively suggest that (for example) McGeady and Clark have at least the potential to inherit the mantles of Duff and Dunne respectively.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't see any of those retiring after Euro 2012. Simple as that.

[Crosby87]

Hey Sully there is no WC stadium in Rio. :)

[SwanVsDalton]

Hey Sully there is no WC stadium in Rio. :)

Maracana? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup)

[dotts101]

kilbane will be the only to retire, given and keane are still passionate for the jersey and as long as they are fit and at a level they will play until the world cup. richard dunne another who is passionate is starting to get niggling injuries so i hope not but feel he may retire along with duff to prolong his career, how many injuries a season can he get.

if we qualify, no player should be brought into the squad that hasnt already played a part or done their service unless they come from nowhere and are that stand out player. o hara would have to wait till the next campaign and would gladly take him in, noble no, knight no, nolan is getting on now and his time has passed, i remember the debate almost 10years ago, that was his time.

back to the original topic, these players are only doing themselves injustice, walters after a good game against uruaguay possibly had the 4th striker position nailed down, now as a consequence simon cox has taken that. mccarthy will be forgiven for sheer potential class and is young. gibson playing 1st team football with sunderland as wished by trap will also be welcomed back (will he get found out as a palyer tho?) stokes can feck off. i remember reading how delighted he was to be finally back in the squad for uruaguay even only getting 10mins or so and then turns around and sites tiredness from an spl season. too late ya have to compete with keane doyle long cox walters and best ahead of ya. as for andy keogh somehow ahead of him to but he shouldnt be in the squad. and not to forget wilson, he has only got the 1 cap, why back out he is not a regular but versatility was gonna give him his chance, and now kelly has defo got ahead of him in the pecking order after some impressive displays, despite my dislike for him.

[Sullivinho]

Hey Sully there is no WC stadium in Rio. :)

There'l be dancing in the streets when we finish third though. I'd have said first or second but that would just be outlandish.. ;)

[Crosby87]

Maracana? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup)

Sorry I thought that wasn't going through....

[DannyInvincible]

back to the original topic, these players are only doing themselves injustice, walters after a good game against uruaguay possibly had the 4th striker position nailed down, now as a consequence simon cox has taken that.

There was never any doubt expressed as to Walters' injury. The issue with him was confirmed to have been an innocent communication error. If people are going to have a go at McCarthy, Wilson and Gibson, at least leave Walters out of it.


and not to forget wilson, he has only got the 1 cap, why back out he is not a regular but versatility was gonna give him his chance, and now kelly has defo got ahead of him in the pecking order after some impressive displays, despite my dislike for him.

Presumably you mean Stephen Ward? Kelly plays on the other side.

[Stuttgart88]

Wilson can play across the back 4, and also defensive mid. If Foley was given a run in midfield I'm sure Wilson could have got a run there too. Wilson was a big loser from the last few weeks.

[Charlie Darwin]

No need for namecalling Stutts.

[ifk101]

Wilson was selected to start at LB against the North. Ward got the nod once he didn't show. Presumably Wilson could have staked a very strong claim for the LB jersey had he showed up for the four games. Not showing up has pushed him further down the pecking order with Kilbane, Clark, Cunningham and now Ward ahead of him at LB.

[paul_oshea]

Wilson can play across the back 4, and also defensive mid. If Foley was given a run in midfield I'm sure Wilson could have got a run there too. Wilson was a big loser from the last few weeks.

Wilson was a big loser, thats a bit harsh stutts. He speaks well of you too.

[Stuttgart88]

Thanks Paul & SvD. You know me, never slow to put a man down...

[paul_oshea]

That was the evolutionist...not svd. You have SvD on the mind, maybe the whole charitable thing there again...geddit?

[SwanVsDalton]

Don't listen to him Stutts, jealousy can make people say hasty things.

[paul_oshea]

But Stutts is a goalkeeper SvD not a versatile back/midfielder?!

[geysir]

There was never any doubt expressed as to Walters' injury. The issue with him was confirmed to have been an innocent communication error.
Innocence is no excuse for a communication error.

[Stuttgart88]

That was the evolutionist...not svd. You have SvD on the mind, maybe the whole charitable thing there again...geddit?Sorry Charles.

[Stuttgart88]

But Stutts is a goalkeeper SvD not a versatile back/midfielder?!I was known to be a mean CB in my day and once scored twice for the company team. A twisted ankle with 30 mins left cost me a chance of a hat trick. Versatile doesn't even cover it.

[Murfinator]

Am I wrong to be suspicious that the majority of the mentioned are unavailable once again?

[tetsujin1979]

little bit
Walters and Wilson were both examined by the FAI medical team and sent home
McCarthy was taken out of it at the weekend by a reckless tackle

[DannyInvincible]

Am I wrong to be suspicious that the majority of the mentioned are unavailable once again?

Walters and Wilson were assessed by the Ireland team doctor. He ruled them out: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2011/0808/ireland_wilsonm_waltersj.html

McCarthy suffered a bad knock from a nasty challenge in Wigan's friendly against Villarreal. He hobbled off just after half time. There's no doubting he's injured, nor has anyone at the FAI expressed any suspicion.

Gibson is still in the squad.

So, probably, yes. :)