Scotland at the crossroads

[BonnieShels]

I think the World Cup could actually be a good time for the Yes side with the "whole country" getting behind INGERLAND!

[Gather round]

Anymore on the polls in the lead in to this ?

You Gov published on 1 May (http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/g5xsbk8gw4/Scotland_29-Apr-2014_)

Yes 37%
No 51%
Unsure/ Not Voting 12%

[TheBoss]

I think the polls for this referendum are variable where ever you look, the yes vote tends to be somewhere between 40% to 48% at the moment, which does show a 5% to 10% increase compared to the start of last year. It seems the nearer the referendum is coming, the more the yes vote is gaining.

[BonnieShels]

So the consensus is that after last night's debate Salmond won by a mile. Darling let slip that Scotland could use the "pound in the event of a Yes vote". Now that was never in doubt as anyone with half a brain knows.

Anyway, the Yes side seems to have the momentum now.

Hon Bonnie Scotland!

If ya missed it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04g1w4s/scotland-decides-salmond-versus-darling

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't quite see what the benefit of remaining in the union is to Scotland, other than for people who view the UK as one country, one people. If you feel separate and distinct from the rest of the union, you express your national identity as a separate country in sports, you have your own devolved parliament, etc, self-determination should be a no-brainer. I don't understand the mentality that you can be Scottish but still think you're better off being on the periphery of another country, which many in Scotland seem to at least consider. But then again as Irish people we're a bit more into self-determination than others.

[BonnieShels]

I can't fathom why any Scot would vote no.

The havoc it will wreck upon the Northern Unionist identity is quote something.



I’ll Take the High Road – Scottish Independence Debates
Monday night saw the second debate of the Scottish Independence Referendum Campaign. Unlike the first one which was held on August 5th, there was a clear winner this time around: Alex Salmond and the Yes Scotland campaign. So much so that even the venerable pro-Union Daily Telegraph’s commentary has begrudgingly said so. Will the debate change the minds of those who have so far been planning to vote “No”?

Unlikely. At this stage though, the most important voters out there are the “Don’t Knows”. They are the ones who need to be convinced of the merits of an Independent Scotland over the status quo that has existed since 1707 (or technically 1801 since Ireland was coerced into the United Kingdom or 1922 when part of Ireland left the Union).

A poll conducted after the debate by The Guardian showed that 71% of Scots watching the debate felt that the First Minister had been victorious, with former Chancellor of the Exchequer under Gordon Brown and leader of the pro-Union Better Together campaign Alastair Darling trailing in his wake on 29%.

The Yes Campaign has struggled to escape the clutches of the big “Currency Question” of the last few months. With the Tory-led Parliament stating that Scotland would not be allowed to use Sterling if Scotland were to vote “Yes”, it seemed that Yes Scotland had been hit with a sucker-punch which would be impossible to recover from.

However, in recent weeks it has seemed that the momentum has swung in favour of the Yes Campaign as they try, and succeed, to claw back Better Together’s, at one time, seemingly unassailable lead.
http://www.krank.ie/category/n_ca/world/ill-take-high-road-scottish-independence-debates/

[osarusan]

I can't fathom why any Scot would vote no.


Plenty of people are unconvinced about their economic future (just as plenty of people are convinced that it will be fine).

[DannyInvincible]

And in the name of Jesus too, of course:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8MmTTP2WWw

[BonnieShels]

Plenty of people are unconvinced about their economic future (just as plenty of people are convinced that it will be fine).

Thanks for that. Sure that goes without saying. You would swear that being marginalised in a State of 60m would be good enough of a reason.

As I said, I can't fathom why any Scot would vote no.

[Gather round]

I don't quite see what the benefit of remaining in the union is to Scotland, other than for people who view the UK as one country, one people

OK, but why not ask some of the majority of voters likely to think that way (between 52- 57% according to this week's polls)?


If you feel separate and distinct from the rest of the union, you express your national identity as a separate country in sports

Perhaps not the best example you could choose. Your country's 'national' sports teams are in most cases shared with another country. Where many eligible players prefer to represent the other country's separate teams.


you have your own devolved parliament, etc, self-determination should be a no-brainer

They're self-determining through the referendum. Even if the result turns out to be one you don't like or understand


I don't understand the mentality that you can be Scottish but still think you're better off being on the periphery of another country, which many in Scotland seem to at least consider

Do you think your 'mentality' (ie attitude to nationality) is the only one possible? I'm from NI but prefer the periphery of Britain to independence. My cousin in Quebec doesn't want to leave Canada. Ditto her sister in California, and the USA?


But then again as Irish people we're a bit more into self-determination than others

As above, you prefer shared teams; you don't understand others' preference for a different self-determination;at the practical politics level your Governments have never made any real effort to move the border in Ireland, or to give those citizens living beyond it a chance to vote.


The havoc it will wreck upon the Northern Unionist identity is quite something

I doubt it. There'd be a brief period of hysterics then abnormal politics would resume (ie, not a united Ireland nor independent NI).

[bennocelt]

Looks very familiar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8MmTTP2WWw

[Mr A]

Wait, has Jesus taken an official line on this? Nothing for 2000 years and now he instructs people to vote in the Scottish Independence referendum. Truly the lord moves in mysterious ways.

[nigel-harps1954]

Love the short solitary clap for your man.

[osarusan]

As I said, I can't fathom why any Scot would vote no.
You can't fathom why somebody might be so concerned about economic problems after independence that they'd vote No?

[DannyInvincible]

Looks very familiar

... Because you first encountered him on this thread in the post only three posts up from your own? :p

[DannyInvincible]

You can't fathom why somebody might be so concerned about economic problems after independence that they'd vote No?

Maintaining the status quo is a safe option for many. Plenty probably think things are just fine as they are and would rather avoid jumping into the relative unknown with all its perceived risks: "Don't fix it if it ain't broke." The independence option is a radical one. Sadly, it's the same reason why a fair number of voters in the north who would otherwise identify as nationalists might vote to remain in the UK if there was ever a referendum on the Irish question.

I'm sure there are also plenty of others in Scotland who primarily identify as British; their cultural identity gravitates towards the notion of Britain as a whole and/or as Scotland being an integral part of that.

[osarusan]

Maintaining the status quo is a safe option for many. Plenty probably think things are just fine as they are and would rather avoid jumping into the relative unknown with all its perceived risks:

Yeah, I'm sure there are some Scots for who the idea of independence is so alluring as to supercede any concerns about other consequence of leaving the union, but I'm sure there are some who don't feel that way.


Sadly, it's the same reason why a fair number of voters in the north who would otherwise identify as nationalists might vote to remain in the UK if there was ever a referendum on the Irish question.

Ineed, and perhaps some in the south who wouldn't want a United Ireland, for much the same reasons.




I'm sure there are also plenty of others in Scotland who primarily identify as British; their cultural identity gravitates towards the notion of Britain as a whole and/or as Scotland being an integral part of that.
I'd guess that these aren't the Scots that BonnieShels is referring to though, but I might be wrong.

[TheBoss]

I'm sure there are also plenty of others in Scotland who primarily identify as British; their cultural identity gravitates towards the notion of Britain as a whole and/or as Scotland being an integral part of that.


Its incorrect to say that you are culturally 'British'. British is a political term for the people that live in the United Kingdom. You are either culturally English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Manx, Cornish, or an Islander in the UK. So if people in Scotland vote No based on the reason that they feel British, they are completely wrong and do not understand anything about themselves as an identity within a political union.

[Charlie Darwin]

Its incorrect to say that you are culturally 'British'. British is a political term for the people that live in the United Kingdom. You are either culturally English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Manx, Cornish, or an Islander in the UK. So if people in Scotland vote No based on the reason that they feel British, they are completely wrong and do not understand anything about themselves as an identity within a political union.
Britishness is certainly a culture as defined by a large number of people. They might not be wholly representative but there is certainly a British culture that supersedes and is at other times incongruous with the sub-nationalities within it.

[DannyInvincible]

Its incorrect to say that you are culturally 'British'. British is a political term for the people that live in the United Kingdom. You are either culturally English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Manx, Cornish, or an Islander in the UK. So if people in Scotland vote No based on the reason that they feel British, they are completely wrong and do not understand anything about themselves as an identity within a political union.

And British culture would be the shared culture or combination of sub-cultures of the people of the UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_the_United_Kingdom). What you're saying is that you understand their identity better than they do? There's no strict limitation as to what constitutes or defines a culture. The parameters are vague and very much fluid. If someone says they feel culturally British, who is anyone else to tell them they're mistaken?

[Gather round]

There's no strict limitation as to what constitutes or defines a culture

Apart from the only incidence of it outside Dublin being agriculture, obviously?

Ka-boom and er, tish. I think the Boss is being unnecessarily exclusive there.

[TheBoss]

In relation to what I said previously said it was more gathered towards how a Scot should not vote. They should only vote No for Social, Political, and Economic reasons rather than nationalism/unionism or culture. Although some will inevitably.

But I still do stand by my comments that there is no identifiable British culture. English culture may have minor influences in Scotland and vice versa, but that does not make it one unique culture. I can accept the term British in relation to the collective (like European, we don't say we are European, we say we are Irish) but not as an individual. British is a nationality not an cultural identity.

[DannyInvincible]

Some Scots inevitably will, indeed, because the idea behind the democratic concept is that there is no particular way that one should vote. Scots will vote whatever way they want, for whatever reasons they want. Just because some might vote for cultural reasons, or reasons to which you don't attach any great significance, doesn't mean they're somehow getting it all wrong. That's an inherently undemocratic thing to say.

As far as British culture is concerned, is it really your place to say? You seem to have a very objective, precise and exclusive idea of what constitutes a cultural identity; so limited, in fact, that it implies that those who identify by a British culture are actually misguided as to their own personal and collective/communal identity. You may not acknowledge the existence of such a culture or cultural identity, but that's no more than your subjective perception and perspective.

[jinxy lilywhite]

I think the Scots will vote to remain in the union. They won't be able to blame the English anymore.

[DannyInvincible]

The latest YouGov poll figures, released the other day, had 'yes' at 47% and 'no' at 53%. YouGov has regularly reported lower levels of support for independence than the other polling companies, so it's a big morale boost for the 'yes' campaign. The predicted 'no' vote has been in free-fall, so it'll be very tight with a fortnight still to go.

[TheBoss]

Some Scots inevitably will, indeed, because the idea behind the democratic concept is that there is no particular way that one should vote. Scots will vote whatever way they want, for whatever reasons they want. Just because some might vote for cultural reasons, or reasons to which you don't attach any great significance, doesn't mean they're somehow getting it all wrong. That's an inherently undemocratic thing to say.

Just because I may disagree with someone because of the way they may vote, is far from undemocratic. Its called an opinion. They can do what they want, I just dispute it.


As far as British culture is concerned, is it really your place to say? You seem to have a very objective, precise and exclusive idea of what constitutes a cultural identity; so limited, in fact, that it implies that those who identify by a British culture are actually misguided as to their own personal and collective/communal identity. You may not acknowledge the existence of such a culture or cultural identity, but that's no more than your subjective perception and perspective.

Nationalism is one of the most flawed ideologies that any person can have in my opinion. Its all about the 'us' and 'our land', making themselves out to be different for all other groups of people but genetically we are all the same. There is absolutely no difference between peoples from our part of the world, only how we live our lives in a collective isolation. Whether we call ourselves either Irish, British, English, Scottish, Welsh, etc, is irrelevant really, we may be culturally different but that does not mean that we have to be extremely nationalistic about it, or in the case of British, a collective nationalism. Britain has only existed since 1700, so when Ireland was part of the union between 1800-1921, that meant Irish suddenly became British which was only created 100 years previously, and then became Irish again from 1921 onwards?

Look at Arab world, they all share a common identity and culture, can you tell me the difference between an Tunisian and a Moroccan? The land that Arabs live in today is divided up into countries for political reasons. They may say they are proud Algerians but their Arab like their neighbours.

[TheBoss]

The latest YouGov poll figures, released the other day, had 'yes' at 47% and 'no' at 53%. YouGov has regularly reported lower levels of support for independence than the other polling companies, so it's a big morale boost for the 'yes' campaign. The predicted 'no' vote has been in free-fall, so it'll be very tight with a fortnight still to go.

The 'No' campaign has focused far too much on attacking Salmond and attacking the 'Yes' campaign. From talking with people that recently went to Scotland, the impression got was that the 'No' campaign could hardly give a positive reason for staying, all their points were based on the negative, "you can't do this/that" etc. where as the 'Yes' campaign was about optimism and positivity for the future. I think a Yes vote is very likely.

[DannyInvincible]

Just because I may disagree with someone because of the way they may vote, is far from undemocratic. Its called an opinion. They can do what they want, I just dispute it.

Certainly, diversity in opinion is all good, but the notion that there is a certain way that they should vote, as if you know what's best for them, sounds imperious to me. Democracy upholds diverse opinions as valid, so to suggest certain ones might be invalid or wrong seems to be the antithesis of that.


Nationalism is one of the most flawed ideologies that any person can have in my opinion. Its all about the 'us' and 'our land', making themselves out to be different for all other groups of people but genetically we are all the same. There is absolutely no difference between peoples from our part of the world, only how we live our lives in a collective isolation. Whether we call ourselves either Irish, British, English, Scottish, Welsh, etc, is irrelevant really, we may be culturally different but that does not mean that we have to be extremely nationalistic about it, or in the case of British, a collective nationalism. Britain has only existed since 1700, so when Ireland was part of the union between 1800-1921, that meant Irish suddenly became British which was only created 100 years previously, and then became Irish again from 1921 onwards?

Look at Arab world, they all share a common identity and culture, can you tell me the difference between an Tunisian and a Moroccan? The land that Arabs live in today is divided up into countries for political reasons. They may say they are proud Algerians but their Arab like their neighbours.

Ethnicity isn't a concept that is based purely on genetic make-up or the alleged genetic differences between various peoples. The outmoded theory or construct of race has been well and truly debunked and shown to be biologically obsolete - genetic variation can be greater within supposed "races" than between them - but there are, nevertheless, differences between different groups of peoples by virtue of their very existence. From different experiences grow different traditions and cultures. That doesn't necessarily have to be a negative or divisive thing. I'm not necessarily saying that nationalism is the best ideology by which humanity should organise itself or around which it should arrange its societies either, but national cultures can also be progressive, celebratory and bonding in nature. Obviously, ethnic nationalism can often take on a much more nasty face than its civic cousin, but it's no reason to dismiss the entire concept of nation as being completely flawed relative to all other ideologies. It's as much or as little a perception-based human construct as any other human ideology really.

There's an Ulster-Scots community in the Laggan district of east Donegal along the border with Derry. Despite many of those in this community having been born and bred south of the border, they don't culturally identify as Irish. Rather, they culturally identify as British, and that's fair enough. Who's to say their misguided? DUP members, Maurice Devenney, Willie Hay and Basil McCrea are some prominent members from this community. Their British identity has no official recognition (unlike the mirror nationalist community across the border in the north, who were similarly "caught on the wrong side of the border" upon partition, but who do have official recognition of their Irish identity), but I wouldn't feel it was my place to deny this community their wish to culturally identify however they wish. National identity can transcend state borders and boundaries. My own father was born in Tyrone, officially part of the UK, but he has never identified as anything other than Irish. It's the same for the broader nationalist community in the north. Culture and national identity are fluid concepts; there are no hard and fast rules as to what is and isn't a valid cultural identity.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Latest poll gives "Yes" a slight lead: http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0906/641956-scottish-independence/

Which is notable since its the first poll since 12 months ago to do so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_refe rendum,_2014#2014

Some of the English headlines tomorrow regards Scotland are all sorts of mental. Really going to see things get desperate now, I'm sure David Cameron doesn't want to be the PM that oversaw the dismemberment of the UK.

[BonnieShels]

Seems there are talks of Federalism and Devo-max now on the table this week.

Hopefully the Scots see fit to tell them to f-off at this stage.

The SNP wanted other options on the ballot 2 years ago but they were refused. Hate that!

Incidentally Stephen Harper, the Clown Prince of Calgary and the Prime Minister of Canada has weighed in opposing independence. If I was a No voter that would sway me to yes.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11076098/Canadian-Prime-Minister-opposes-Scottish-independence.html

[Charlie Darwin]

Seems there are talks of Federalism and Devo-max now on the table this week.

Hopefully the Scots see fit to tell them to f-off at this stage.

The SNP wanted other options on the ballot 2 years ago but they were refused. Hate that!

Incidentally Stephen Harper, the Clown Prince of Calgary and the Prime Minister of Canada has weighed in opposing independence. If I was a No voter that would sway me to yes.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11076098/Canadian-Prime-Minister-opposes-Scottish-independence.html
It's hilarious watching countries who have achieved independence from Britain backing the union. No sense of irony there at all. Obviously his stance is totally based on Quebec but still.

[BonnieShels]

As someone who's lived in both Australia and Canada I could never quite get the fawning. It's bizarre.

Harper is a goon though.

[DannyInvincible]

Latest poll gives "Yes" a slight lead: http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0906/641956-scottish-independence/

That's quite something. I really hadn't expected that. YouGov polls tend to be generous to the 'no' vote as well.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Wonder if an unlikely Scottish win tonight would boost the "Yes" campaign? Or if a tanking could do the opposite?

[TheBoss]

Ethnicity isn't a concept that is based purely on genetic make-up or the alleged genetic differences between various peoples. The outmoded theory or construct of race has been well and truly debunked and shown to be biologically obsolete - genetic variation can be greater within supposed "races" than between them - but there are, nevertheless, differences between different groups of peoples by virtue of their very existence. From different experiences grow different traditions and cultures. That doesn't necessarily have to be a negative or divisive thing. I'm not necessarily saying that nationalism is the best ideology by which humanity should organise itself or around which it should arrange its societies either, but national cultures can also be progressive, celebratory and bonding in nature. Obviously, ethnic nationalism can often take on a much more nasty face than its civic cousin, but it's no reason to dismiss the entire concept of nation as being completely flawed relative to all other ideologies. It's as much or as little a perception-based human construct as any other human ideology really.

There's an Ulster-Scots community in the Laggan district of east Donegal along the border with Derry. Despite many of those in this community having been born and bred south of the border, they don't culturally identify as Irish. Rather, they culturally identify as British, and that's fair enough. Who's to say their misguided? DUP members, Maurice Devenney, Willie Hay and Basil McCrea are some prominent members from this community. Their British identity has no official recognition (unlike the mirror nationalist community across the border in the north, who were similarly "caught on the wrong side of the border" upon partition, but who do have official recognition of their Irish identity), but I wouldn't feel it was my place to deny this community their wish to culturally identify however they wish. National identity can transcend state borders and boundaries. My own father was born in Tyrone, officially part of the UK, but he has never identified as anything other than Irish. It's the same for the broader nationalist community in the north. Culture and national identity are fluid concepts; there are no hard and fast rules as to what is and isn't a valid cultural identity.

I understand completely what you are saying but that kind of mindset by those "groups/communities/identities" is illusionary. Lets say we take a person from the Ulster Scots and take one person from the Irish and they never told about the history of either groups, what then those one call itself? The notion of these groups gives the people a feeling that they are different, superior, patriotic etc. and gives a meaning to their lives that otherwise would be boring and pointless. Some may think that these groups have positive elements to them, and they may well be right but in saying that you have to look at the other side, it causes division amongst people which on larger scales causes wars. So for me, the fact that these groups cause division/wars is something that this world can do without.

[BonnieShels]

So the latest poll from TNS has the yes and no camps tied at 41% each if you exclude don't knows.

It's been a remarkable few days.

Interestingly the Devo-max timetable should be announced today.

Offers of Home Rule in 2014...interesting.

[BonnieShels]

My latest on this thoroughly compelling campaign:
http://www.krank.ie/category/opinions/end-nigh-scottish-independence-referendum/

[DannyInvincible]

I understand completely what you are saying but that kind of mindset by those "groups/communities/identities" is illusionary. Lets say we take a person from the Ulster Scots and take one person from the Irish and they never told about the history of either groups, what then those one call itself? The notion of these groups gives the people a feeling that they are different, superior, patriotic etc. and gives a meaning to their lives that otherwise would be boring and pointless.

If that's the case, what human feeling, sentiment, emotion, identity, culture or ideology wouldn't be an "illusion" or a manufactured/notional means of escaping this boredom and futility you mention? You appear to be distinguishing the ideology of nationalism from other ideologies, or singling it out as being particularly or uniquely flawed. That would imply that you feel there may be other ideologies that aren't illusory and flawed; if so, what ideologies are they? The ones to which you conveniently just happen to subscribe, surely not? I submit that any distinction you invoke will be no more than arbitrary. By your logic, all ideologies and feelings of connection could be said to be figments of our imagination.

Just because something is a means of escape or a means for creating meaning, value or essence in one's life, it doesn't necessarily mean it is flawed and illusory; rather, the tool or mechanism of escape is perhaps itself the very fabric of real, meaningful life and human experience. Of course your test cases wouldn't know who they were if they were stripped of their histories and experiences - the things that define their essence - for they'd be blank and unblemished canvases. But no human is like that. Essence is an integral by-product of existence. By our very existence, life's environment moulds us and gives us essence; that's not something that can be denied or erased. It's those very histories and experiences that have made these people who they are. Their communal histories and experiences are very real for them and integral to their identities.


Some may think that these groups have positive elements to them, and they may well be right but in saying that you have to look at the other side, it causes division amongst people which on larger scales causes wars. So for me, the fact that these groups cause division/wars is something that this world can do without.

I suspect national identities are more an effect rather than a cause of division. People will always be divided by interests and will always construct (wittingly or organically/unwittingly) and exploit conflicting ideologies or dogmas to morally justify and reinforce those respective interests.

[BonnieShels]

My daily missive on the referendum:



Six Points of Separation: The Scottish Independence Referendum

So up from London they came; David, Ed and Nick, determined to show the Scots that they really really wanted them to stay part of the United Kingdom. On top of that, Lord (John) Prescott, former Deputy Prime Minister under Tony Blair, made an appearance. The big guns are out for Better Together. On the other side of the debate, Yes Scotland continued the grassroots contact that has served them so well so far. No change there.

Meanwhile in England, there was a bit of a kerfuffle made over the differentiation of the Scottish and English editions of national newspapers, most notably The Daily Mail, having different headlines and policies towards published articles and “feelings” towards the referendum in Scotland compared that that in England. This is exactly the same as what happened to the Daily Express back in April when, in England, it stated that their would be a “Pension Shock For Millions” whereas in Scotland the headline state that “Pensions [were] Safer In [the] UK”. Hardly what could be called unbiased coverage one would think.

The big news on the trail today was, of course, the Survation poll for the Daily Record which showed a 6-point gap in favour of No when the undecideds were omitted. Whilst this may appear to be a huge jump from the last two days, the interesting thing to note is that the Survation poll has consistently undervalued the Yes side and has shown only a 1-point change in the “don’t knows” since last month. It also shows a huge 6-point swing (Yes +3%; No -3%) since the last poll.

The smart money is on a race that is still too close to call and the perceived wisdom that the flight of Ed, David and Nick to England’s Attic was as a result of some private polling which shows a flight of undecided voters to the Yes camp over the last two weeks.

All-in-all, the effect of their arrival seems to chime with the panic that is being felt across the Better Together camp that they could indeed find themselves on the losing side. With only seven days left until polling day, this campaign will get nastier and nastier as the tension mounts.

The campaign is truly on a knife edge and that knife has killed the UK as we know it.
Scotland’s presence in the UK is still very much up-for-grabs.

http://www.krank.ie/category/n_ca/world/six-points-separation-scottish-independence-referendum/

[BonnieShels]

Bold Davie Cameron:

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/510099132334481409

[BonnieShels]

Yes in the lead according to ICM poll:
http://postimg.org/image/a2trwatst/

[TheBoss]

If that's the case, what human feeling, sentiment, emotion, identity, culture or ideology wouldn't be an "illusion" or a manufactured/notional means of escaping this boredom and futility you mention? You appear to be distinguishing the ideology of nationalism from other ideologies, or singling it out as being particularly or uniquely flawed. That would imply that you feel there may be other ideologies that aren't illusory and flawed; if so, what ideologies are they? The ones to which you conveniently just happen to subscribe, surely not? I submit that any distinction you invoke will be no more than arbitrary. By your logic, all ideologies and feelings of connection could be said to be figments of our imagination.

Just because something is a means of escape or a means for creating meaning, value or essence in one's life, it doesn't necessarily mean it is flawed and illusory; rather, the tool or mechanism of escape is perhaps itself the very fabric of real, meaningful life and human experience. Of course your test cases wouldn't know who they were if they were stripped of their histories and experiences - the things that define their essence - for they'd be blank and unblemished canvases. But no human is like that. Essence is an integral by-product of existence. By our very existence, life's environment moulds us and gives us essence; that's not something that can be denied or erased. It's those very histories and experiences that have made these people who they are. Their communal histories and experiences are very real for them and integral to their identities.

I suspect national identities are more an effect rather than a cause of division. People will always be divided by interests and will always construct (wittingly or organically/unwittingly) and exploit conflicting ideologies or dogmas to morally justify and reinforce those respective interests.

All my points refer solely to nationalism (due to this thread) and reasons I feel why it is outdated caveman style of living our lives, I never implied that the other ideologies are better or worse cause I never made any claim to that. I do however agree that all ideologies are illusionary, it fails to make an individual think for themselves. We should all have political viewpoints independent of groups/ideologies etc., cause we have to as an intelligent species be able to live our lives to the best we can, unfortunately nowadays most people who live on this planet are just happy to sit back and allow this fake nationalism to control their lives. I think I've made my point. :D

[DannyInvincible]

All my points refer solely to nationalism (due to this thread) and reasons I feel why it is outdated caveman style of living our lives, I never implied that the other ideologies are better or worse cause I never made any claim to that. I do however agree that all ideologies are illusionary, it fails to make an individual think for themselves. We should all have political viewpoints independent of groups/ideologies etc., cause we have to as an intelligent species be able to live our lives to the best we can, unfortunately nowadays most people who live on this planet are just happy to sit back and allow this fake nationalism to control their lives. I think I've made my point. :D

Ha, yes, I think you have.

The referendum is as much about enhancing democracy as it is about the coming of age of a nation though. As an aside, I've found it interesting that Scottish nationalism and unionism aren't really aligned to ethnicity or religion in the same way that Irish nationalism and unionism broadly are. George Galloway, of Irish Catholic descent, for example, has often made a case for 32-county Irish republicanism, yet he's a staunch Union-supporting socialist in terms of Scotland's place in the UK. Obviously, the two nation's respective histories and interactions/conflicts with England/Britain have influenced that, but interesting nonetheless.

Dan Snow of the 'No'/'Better Together' campaign was arguing yesterday that it didn't make sense to divide an island into two separate political jurisdictions. The irony of the situation was completely lost on him as he made the claim whilst donning a pro-Union t-shirt featuring a partitioned Ireland. He made no case for the re-unification of Ireland, meanwhile. :p

[NeverFeltBetter]

Just glancing at the odds today, PP pretty set on the likelihood of a "No", given as 77% chance. Just don't see it happening.

It'll be interesting to see how fast Cameron actually does try and implement "Devo Max", or if it was a just a fake carrot on a stick, left unimplemented by the time the next GE comes around.

[bennocelt]

Yeah i also had a quick gander at the PP odds, bit surprising, but they have got it wrong before with elections (Obama/LMF)

[OwlsFan]

Ha, yes, I think you have.

Dan Snow of the 'No'/'Better Together' campaign was arguing yesterday that it didn't make sense to divide an island into two separate political jurisdictions. The irony of the situation was completely lost on him as he made the claim whilst donning a pro-Union t-shirt featuring a partitioned Ireland. He made no case for the re-unification of Ireland, meanwhile. :p

He should have a look at this list of divided islands. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divided_islands There are a lot of them and the one divided between Germany and Poland caught my eye. Never knew that.

I suspect Celtic supporters will be voting to stay in the UK for if Scotland exits, that's their last chance of playing in the EPL.

[DannyInvincible]

He should have a look at this list of divided islands. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divided_islands There are a lot of them and the one divided between Germany and Poland caught my eye. Never knew that.

I suspect Celtic supporters will be voting to stay in the UK for if Scotland exits, that's their last chance of playing in the EPL.

Not necessarily. Why would union, or the lack thereof, make a difference there? FIFA/UEFA already consider Scotland and England as distinct footballing territories anyway. Furthermore, there are numerous examples in world football of clubs from one jurisdiction playing in the league of another state/jurisdiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_association_football_clubs_playing_in_the_ league_of_another_country); Derry City, for example.

Interestingly, a lot of Celtic fans are wary of the SNP and Scottish nationalism, or at least were a few months ago anyway: http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/independent-thinking-celtic-fans-wary-scottish-nationalism

I have a feeling many would be traditional Scottish Labour supporters - Glasgow being an old industrial/shipyard city - and, obviously, Labour are pro-Union. It's an economic thing rather than an ethno-cultural thing for them. Independence has seen support rise steadily in the last few weeks, mind, presumably from all sections of Scottish society. I don't think it'll happen myself though, but it will be a very tight call.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Betfair are recording a much higher volume of "Yes" bets, but more money being placed on "No" gambles. It's a bit confusing, the site is apparently paying out on some "No" bets already: https://betting.betfair.com/politics/scottish-independence-referendum-betting/scottish-independence-betting-betfair-sportsbook-pays-out-early-on-no-160914-51.html?rfr=798967&mpch=ads

[Gather round]

George Galloway, of Irish Catholic descent, for example, has often made a case for 32-county Irish republicanism, yet he's a staunch Union-supporting socialist in terms of Scotland's place in the UK

Dan Snow of the 'No'/'Better Together' campaign was arguing yesterday that it didn't make sense to divide an island into two separate political jurisdictions. The irony of the situation was completely lost on him as he made the claim whilst donning a pro-Union t-shirt featuring a partitioned Ireland. He made no case for the re-unification of Ireland, meanwhile

Gorgeous's allegiances are a bit inconsistent. Celtic one week, Dundee United the next. Ditto proud Socialist and MP for an ethnicity-based party.

Dan Snow is a professional historian albeit not specialising in Ireland. He's oversimplifying/ bull****ting for his English audience.


I suspect Celtic supporters will be voting to stay in the UK for if Scotland exits, that's their last chance of playing in the EPL

I doubt that

a) Celtic-supporting voters tend to have that support as a major factor in their choice

b) any political change tomorrow will make any difference to their presently negligible chance of joining the EPL

[Macy]

It'll be interesting to see how fast Cameron actually does try and implement "Devo Max", or if it was a just a fake carrot on a stick, left unimplemented by the time the next GE comes around.
Clearly a fake carrot. The SNP wanted "Devo Max" on the ballot as an option, and Westminster refused. Why would they implement it when they have no mandate for it?