Bin Laden Dead.

[strangeirish]

Breaking News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110502/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden)

Apparently killed at a mansion in Pakistan. Supposedly a human operation versus a drone attack.

[dancinpants]

Obama just secured his re-election.

[mypost]

He's here in 3 weeks. Just when security here was tight enough already, this happens.

[SkStu]

congratulations on creating an Islamic martyr. Worrying stuff if you ask me. The fall out could be catastrophic. Interesting to see the euphoric scenes outside the White House and at Ground Zero. Interesting and understandable in a lot of ways considering the scenes we saw on Al Jazeera after 9/11. The world is so messed up.

As dancinpants said, victory is Obamas now. So mission accomplished on that score too.

[backstothewall]

congratulations on creating an Islamic martyr. Worrying stuff if you ask me. The fall out could be catastrophic. Interesting to see the euphoric scenes outside the White House and at Ground Zero. Interesting and understandable in a lot of ways considering the scenes we saw on Al Jazeera after 9/11. The world is so messed up.

As dancinpants said, victory is Obamas now. So mission accomplished on that score too.

Can't agree. A few years ago he would probably have been seen that way, but I think the timing of this means this will be seen as another event in the Arab Spring. Al Qaeda has been on the wane, both in terms of their support and in militarily terms for years now. This could clear the path to opening negotiations with the Taliban and getting agreement in Afghanistan.

[Dodge]

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/05/01/local-man-apparently.html?dlvrit=36761

[Crosby87]

This is fantastic but thankfully in no way ensures Obama's Re Election IMO. It was already sadly assured by the lackluster Republican noms.

[dahamsta]

I didn't read every word of that article, is there independent confirmation?

[elroy]

Hes was killed and body buried in the sea off Aghanistan. Apparently Saudi Arabia refused to take his body.

And I the only one that remains a tad sceptical - surely there has to be photos of the body to verify this??? I can understand that they want to minimise the possibility of Bin Laden seen as a martyr. But who's to say the US have not known he was dead for a while (as was suspected) and have used this operation to claim his death.......still too many questions in my mind.

[bennocelt]

Buried at sea - ah come off it, thats a joke surely

[Eminence Grise]

I presume burial at sea is to prevent his grave becoming a place of pilgrimage.

I don't think we'll ever know the true circumstances of his life or death. Robert Fisk on Newstalk this morning was unsure what impact his death would have - would it lead to an upsurge in terrorism, or would he fade from memory given that he had been regarded as a retired terrorist?

[Dodge]

I think its more to do with the optics of it for US citizens. Some sort of 'closure' (hate that term) for 9/11

If it means the average hick American starts to no longer fear every Muslim, then job done as far as I'm confirmed.

[bennocelt]

Yeah thats fair enough, but not even to have any photos yet!!! Unless they slowly trickle out in the next few days. These are American soldiers we are talking about, the guys who get their kicks taking photos of any dead Muslims they can get their hands on so would be a major surprise if there arent any trophy photos (and a little suspicious if not)

[The Fly]

Here's how a FOX News affiliate broke the news...

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/226954_10150290356809676_80939959675_9693900_72652 87_n.jpg

[dahamsta]

There's a big difference between the ignorant grunts that ran Abu Ghraib and the special forces that would've run this operation.

I still don't get the blanket acceptance of this though, there seems to be very few questions being asked despite no apparent independent evidence.

[Charlie Darwin]

Here's how a FOX News affiliate broke the news...

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/226954_10150290356809676_80939959675_9693900_72652 87_n.jpg
To clarify, it's a Fox affiliate not a Fox News affiliate, which basically means it carries Fox's entertainment schedule. The screenshot is from local news which isn't affiliated with the big bad news channel.

Bin Laden's death is probably less important than it would have been a few years ago. While he was the figurehead of Al Qaeda and had unquestioned credibility on account of 9/11, much of Al Qaeda's power came from the existence of so many pro-US dictatorships that stifled dissent. With recent revolutions and reform pushes, people are finding different ways to air their grievances.

[pineapple stu]

I still don't get the blanket acceptance of this though, there seems to be very few questions being asked despite no apparent independent evidence.
Yeah, agree with that. It's been said before that he's been thought to be dead. Abbottabad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbottabad) is a fair way from the sea - quite something for them to have done DNA tests (which I don't think it instant) and then fly him to the sea to drop him there, all in the space of a couple of hours. Something doesn't really add up. Also agree with Charlie that it isn't as big a news story as it's being made out to be.

Also had to laugh/cringe at RTÉ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0502/binladen_arab.html) dipping into a Jihad forum to get the Arab world's response.

[Hurt Locker]

agree with you hamster, wouldn't put anything past the yanks. Did they murder his wife as well? Pity Gadaffi wasn't whacked as well.
Will the navy seal get the $25 million reward?

[Fr Damo]

Yeah, agree with that. It's been said before that he's been thought to be dead. Abbottabad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbottabad) is a fair way from the sea - quite something for them to have done DNA tests (which I don't think it instant) and then fly him to the sea to drop him there, all in the space of a couple of hours. Something doesn't really add up. Also agree with Charlie that it isn't as big a news story as it's being made out to be.

Also had to laugh/cringe at RTÉ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0502/binladen_arab.html) dipping into a Jihad forum to get the Arab world's response.


I have to agree with you stu. I suspect he is dead and we will see photos in due course but not yet "buried".

[brendy_éire]

What I don't get is that no-one has really questioned as to why he was killed?
He hasn't been convicted of anything, only linked to certain events.
Is it legal just to go in and kill someone you suspect of being involved in murder?

Mind you, not sure how overly concerned the US might be with legalities. They're still in Iraq sure.

[Dodge]

What I don't get is that no-one has really questioned as to why he was killed?
He hasn't been convicted of anything, only linked to certain events

He also admitted to the acts.

I think a fake trial would've done more to further his cause, so they took the neccesary action.

As a bleeding heart liberal, I've no problem with Bin Laden being killed, or any other war-mongerers

[Mr A]

Plus Pakistan might have demanded him back as he'd been on their territory.. a lot simpler to get the thing over with.

Good riddance to him.

[Charlie Darwin]

I suspect he would also have plenty to say about western governments' assistance to him and his people in building the mujahideen. Far more convenient just to kill him. I'd imagine the main reason is to minimise the propaganda/martyrdom element though.

[dahamsta]

They say that they killed him because he resisted arrest, or at least that's what I've seen reported. Of course the likelihood of them having the power of arrest in Pakistan is very slim anyway.

[John83]

I suspect he would also have plenty to say about western governments' assistance to him and his people in building the mujahideen. Far more convenient just to kill him. I'd imagine the main reason is to minimise the propaganda/martyrdom element though.
If you were Ossama Bin Ladin, would you surrender to US troops? I've no doubt the US prefers it this way, but I find it quite believable that he died before being captured.

As for the various conspiracy theories, whatever the exact details, I'm confident he's dead. It'd be to humiliating to countenance him releasing a video next week with a copy of yesterday's USA Today.

[dahamsta]

I couldn't give a flying feck whether he's dead or alive, I just won't believe he is until I see or hear independent evidence. I wouldn't trust the americans at this stage as far as I'd throw them, Obama or no.

[bennocelt]

Robert Fisk in the papers had an interesting thing at the end of one piece today saying he got 3 good sources questioning if it was not a body double they killed - stirring it Im sure, but could you imagine the embarrassment if he wasnt killed and he appeared on another one of his videos (or even if a body double did) Until there are pics then all bets are off!!

As for the execution style assassination - not bothered either way but this kind of makes him a martyr as he was killed in action whereas if they brought him to trial then he would be shown to be the maniac he is? No?

[Charlie Darwin]

They say that they killed him because he resisted arrest, or at least that's what I've seen reported. Of course the likelihood of them having the power of arrest in Pakistan is very slim anyway.
I'm not sure where the information originates from but it seems to be accepted that Obama issued a shoot to kill order, so there was never any intention of bringing him back alive. I understand this is standard for all "most wanted" terrorists.


If you were Ossama Bin Ladin, would you surrender to US troops? I've no doubt the US prefers it this way, but I find it quite believable that he died before being captured.
I don't know. There's no reports suggesting he was armed or attempted to fight his way out.


As for the execution style assassination - not bothered either way but this kind of makes him a martyr as he was killed in action whereas if they brought him to trial then he would be shown to be the maniac he is? No?
Has there ever been any doubt he was a maniac? People in the middle east didn't support him because he was an intellectual making hugely valid arguments; they supported him because he fought against and hurt the West in a way nobody ever had before.

[bennocelt]

Has there ever been any doubt he was a maniac? People in the middle east didn't support him because he was an intellectual making hugely valid arguments; they supported him because he fought against and hurt the West in a way nobody ever had before.

True, but look how the Nurnberg trials are shown as a good way to beat down any Holocaust deniers.

[OwlsFan]

The usual conspiracy cr*p? "Body double"? Can they have a DNA double as well?

Not sure about this burial at sea though. Seems a strange one. I can understand how they wouldn't like a place of pilgrimage but with all the conspiracy mongers in the world, many will believe he is living in Brazil with Elvis. If they are happy they got him, so am I.

[Lim till i die]

It would be interesting to note the public reaction were a crack team of Afghans or Iraqis to burst into the White House and shoot Obama in the noodle.

Assuming the Americans actually got the job done this time, it's all super convenient.


People in the middle east didn't support him because he was an intellectual making hugely valid arguments; they supported him because he fought against and hurt the West in a way nobody ever had before.

I'm not sure how much "popular support" he had in the Middle East, a large share of the recent uprisings in the region have had a lot of secularists involved (besides the ones that aren't outside ordered coups but I digress) and in a lot of overtly Muslim countries there have been crackdowns on his organisation as their antics would be considered to be just not cricket by the cozy powers that be.

[Charlie Darwin]

This is the latest contender for photo of dead Osama: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4e2_1304436213


True, but look how the Nurnberg trials are shown as a good way to beat down any Holocaust deniers.
Nuremberg was a fact-finding process as much as one of justice, and plenty of Nazis still got away. How much more are we going to learn from the guy who's spent the last 9.5 years telling everyone he did 9/11?


I'm not sure how much "popular support" he had in the Middle East, a large share of the recent uprisings in the region have had a lot of secularists involved (besides the ones that aren't outside ordered coups but I digress) and in a lot of overtly Muslim countries there have been crackdowns on his organisation as their antics would be considered to be just not cricket by the cozy powers that be.
Well, yeah, "support" is a pretty broad concept. But you see it in Palestine: support for terrorism fluctuates wildly depending on the political climate. The recent uprisings aren't only good because they're popular - they're also good because it shows people in the arab world are less fixated on the "evil empire" and more on the devil on their doorstep.

[dfx-]

He swore he'd never be brought out alive, so I suspect he made sure they shot him when they got the chance. When the Taliban are accepting he's dead, I think that's enough confirmation..

About 13 years too late when Clinton had a chance to get him after the Embassy bombings.

[mypost]

I don't see the need, and I would prefer there to be no photographic evidence released. Do we demand evidence of all war prisoners captured and killed? Any evidence will be insensitive, gruesome and is more likely to be a hindrance than a help. Obama and co don't conduct 9-month operations, and hold news conferences at 11.30 on Sunday nights unless it's big news, and are crystal clear certain that they had got him.

They had his body for a number of hours before Obama spoke. About the burial, he was transported by ultra-fast machinery to an aircraft carrier, given a Muslim funeral and buried at sea. It can be and was all done in very quick time, and handled very well, given who it was and the hatred the USA Military have for him.

[SkStu]

The usual conspiracy cr*p? "Body double"? Can they have a DNA double as well?



a voice of reason. Thank you. Of course he is effing dead.

[DannyInvincible]

I presume burial at sea is to prevent his grave becoming a place of pilgrimage.?

They do realise that 90 per cent of the world's surface can now be interpreted as a shrine to Bin Laden? :p


Obama and co don't conduct 9-month operations, and hold news conferences at 11.30 on Sunday nights unless it's big news, and are crystal clear certain that they had got him.

Surely as good a time as any to play a bluff.

In 2009, Angelo M. Codevilla of 'The American Spectator' (http://spectator.org/archives/2009/03/13/osama-bin-elvis) reckoned Bin Laden had been dead since around 2002 considering he was seriously ill when he went on the run and was last seen by a reputable source in 2001.


Negative evidence alone compels the conclusion that Osama is long since dead. Since October 2001, when Al Jazeera's Tayseer Alouni interviewed him, no reputable person reports having seen him—not even after multiple-blind journeys through intermediaries. The audio and video tapes alleged to be Osama's never convinced impartial observers. The guy just does not look like Osama. Some videos show him with a Semitic aquiline nose, while others show him with a shorter, broader one. Next to that, differences between colors and styles of beard are small stuff.

Nor does the tapes' Osama sound like Osama. In 2007 Switzerland's Dalle Molle Institute for Artificial Intelligence, which does computer voice recognition for bank security, compared the voices on 15 undisputed recordings of Osama with the voices on 15 subsequent ones attributed to Osama, to which they added two by native Arab speakers who had trained to imitate him and were reading his writings. All of the purported Osama recordings (with one falling into a gray area) differed clearly from one another as well as from the genuine ones. By contrast, the CIA found all the recordings authentic. It is hard to imagine what methodology might support this conclusion.

Also in 2007, Professor Bruce Lawrence, who heads Duke University's religious studies program, argued in a book on Osama's messages that their increasingly secular language is inconsistent with Osama's Wahhabism. Lawrence noted as well that the Osama figure in the December 2001 video, which many have taken as his assumption of responsibility for 9/11, wears golden rings—decidedly un-Wahhabi. He also writes with the wrong hand. Lawrence concluded that the messages are fakes, and not very good ones. The CIA has judged them all good.

Above all, whereas Elvis impersonators at least sing the King's signature song, "You ain't nutin' but a hound dawg," the words on the Osama tapes differ substantively from what the real Osama used to say—especially about the most important matter. On September 16, 2001, on Al Jazeera, Osama said of 9/11: "I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation." Again, in the October interview with Tayseer Alouni, he limited his connection with 9/11 to ideology: "If they mean, or if you mean, that there is a link as a result of our incitement, then it is true. We incite…" But in the so-called "confession video" that the CIA found in December, the Osama figure acts like the chief conspirator. The fact that the video had been made for no self-evident purpose except perhaps to be found by the Americans should have raised suspicion. Its substance, the celebratory affirmation of a responsibility for 9/11 that Osama had denied, should also have weighed against the video's authenticity. Why would he wait to indict himself until after U.S. forces and allies had secured Afghanistan? But the CIA acted as if it had caught Osama red-handed.

The CIA should also have taken seriously the accounts of Osama's death. On December 26, 2001, Fox News interviewed a Taliban source who claimed that he had attended Osama's funeral, along with some 30 associates. The cause of death, he said, had been pulmonary infection. The New York Times on July 11, 2002, reported the consensus of a story widespread in Pakistan that Osama had succumbed the previous year to his long-standing nephritis. Then, Benazir Bhutto—as well connected as anyone with sources of information on the Afghan-Pakistani border—mentioned casually in a BBC interview that Osama had been murdered by his associates. Murder is as likely as natural death. Osama's deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, is said to have murdered his own predecessor, Abdullah Azzam, Osama's original mentor. Also, because Osama's capture by the Americans would have endangered everyone with whom he had ever associated, any and all intelligence services who had ever worked with him had an interest in his death.

And so forth...

The scenes of Americans celebrating in the streets have been a bit surreal and the sad thing about them is that they verge on mirroring the sort of scenes witnessed in the streets of the Middle East after 9/11 that were, of course, roundly condemned.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WptpG_yVUI&feature=related

[DannyInvincible]

This is the latest contender for photo of dead Osama: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4e2_1304436213

I notice that beard is still undergoing the greying process, just like Bin Laden's was as far back as 1998.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/images/osama-bin-laden-1998.jpg

Hmm... Did he dye it like that?

[DannyInvincible]

What I don't get is that no-one has really questioned as to why he was killed?
He hasn't been convicted of anything, only linked to certain events.
Is it legal just to go in and kill someone you suspect of being involved in murder?

You would have thought the US military would have wanted a talk with him, aye. Maybe "burial at sea" is double-speak for "endless waterboarding" now...

[mypost]

Surely as good a time as any to play a bluff.

In 2009, Angelo M. Codevilla of 'The American Spectator' (http://spectator.org/archives/2009/03/13/osama-bin-elvis) reckoned Bin Laden had been dead since around 2002 considering he was seriously ill when he went on the run and was last seen by a reputable source in 2001.


Lots of people were ill in 2002, they're still alive today. Bin Laden set out to kill indiscriminantly whoever he could, whenever he could. The Americans go in to take out militants. He is a militant, and a lot more than the average militant.

The operation on Sunday was a targeted operation. They had intelligence going back 9 months to last weekend. Bin Laden was given the chance to surrender, a chance he afforded none of his victims. When he wouldn't surrender, he paid the price. DNA tests were done on him to confirm he was him. Only when done, the Americans announced what happened. Job done, move on.

[Spudulika]

Nothing about this adds up, and when you hear the yanks saying how great human torture is because it gave them the information to kill another human being(s), it really does smack of trying to justify the complete depths of depravity they continue to commit.

Points to remember:
1. Osama Bin Laden was supported and backed by American covert agencies to fight against Soviet troops and civvies in Afghanistan in the "war on communism".
2. Osama Bin Laden was hopping around in trouble spots to support anti-communist groups in places like Yemen, Oman etc.
3. PBL's nose was seriously out of joint when the Yanks refused to allow his fighters defend the holy lands when Iraq made a beeline for Kuwait, but he was still active sending hundreds of killers/holy warriors with US support to Yugoslavia, Somalia etc.
4. The US lost communism as a boogey, islamic fundies suddenly came on line and one of their own creatures came on the scene.
5. After a series of mess ups and bully boy contacts the previous buddies of the US (ie the Taliban) told them to stick their pipeline and Osama hits the US and disappears.
6. 10 years on he turns up in a mega expensive house, with no telephone or internet, next to the Pakistan Military Academy (their Westpoint - not the gym) where the US have their trainers etc.
7. Obama and his people still hadn't closed their domestic torture camps (remember young boys are now in their mid twenties having been held without trial for a decade) and his ratings have dropped and he needs a good news story.
8. Their boogey man is sitting pretty in his protected haven, but he's now surplus to requirements, so they off him and get rid of the body. This is a common tactic throughout history - look at how Saddam Hussein was hurried to the next world, the dead tell no tales and it's handy is Osama is in protective custody all along.

So the US have their oil fields, they have the world quaking and they can still pretend to be so good and evenhanded.

Ultimately, no matter what, the man is still someone's son, someone's father.

[DannyInvincible]

Lots of people were ill in 2002, they're still alive today. Bin Laden set out to kill indiscriminantly whoever he could, whenever he could. The Americans go in to take out militants. He is a militant, and a lot more than the average militant.

The operation on Sunday was a targeted operation. They had intelligence going back 9 months to last weekend. Bin Laden was given the chance to surrender, a chance he afforded none of his victims. When he wouldn't surrender, he paid the price. DNA tests were done on him to confirm he was him. Only when done, the Americans announced what happened. Job done, move on.

No need for haste; the story as to what apparently occurred in the compound is still in the process of being refined. You would agree though that a healthy dose of scepticism is warranted whenever the US alleges anything about matters such as these?

[mypost]

No. There was a reason why Obama faced the cameras late last Sunday night. It's not for effect.

[sligoman]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8120236576648647371# (from about 3.30mins)

I'd believe her over the yanks. He's dead, but the Americans didn't kill him.

[DannyInvincible]

No. There was a reason why Obama faced the cameras late last Sunday night. It's not for effect.

Nobody was disputing there was a reason behind it.

[DannyInvincible]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8120236576648647371# (from about 3.30mins)

I'd believe her over the yanks. He's dead, but the Americans didn't kill him.

There are suggestions she might well have misspoken.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IIn_UnLO9I&feature=player_embedded

There's an interesting chronology of statements and events detailed here (http://littlecountrylost.blogspot.com/2008/01/benazir-bhutto-omar-shiekh-murdered.html).

[shakermaker1982]

I love how the story of his demise keeps changing by the minute. Yesterday morning he was armed but cowered behind his wife and used her as a shield.........now he wasn't armed but still resisted arrest so they shot him anyway. The wife was only shot in the leg and will recover.

Thought this was an interesting read. Especially point 10.

The 10 key myths about Osama (Guardian)

1. Osama bin Laden was 'created' by the CIA

He did not receive any direct funding or training from the US during the 1980s. Nor did his followers. The Afghan mujahideen, via Pakistan's ISI intelligence agency, received large amounts of both. Some bled to the Arabs fighting the Soviets but nothing significant.

2. He had a huge personal fortune

Bin Laden was forced to leave any cash he had when he in effect fled Saudi Arabia in 1991 for Pakistan and then Sudan. His family cut him off. Nor would the inheritance from his hugely wealthy father have been divided into equal parts anyway. What Bin Laden did have was contacts, which allowed him to raise money with ease.

3. He was responsible for 1993 bombing of World Trade Centre

Ramzi Yousef, who was the main perpetrator of the attack, was probably working for Khaled Sheikh Mohammed who was an independent operator at the time. Mohammed only started working with al-Qaida in 1996 and even then kept his distance from Bin Laden.

4. He got money from drug running

No evidence for this whatsoever despite repeated claims – such as in the post 9/11 British government dossier on al-Qaida.

5. He never exposed himself to any danger

He did not single-handedly seize a short-barrelled AK-47 from a dying Soviet general as he sometimes claimed but numerous witnesses report that he was in the thick of fighting in Jaji in 1987 and again at the battle of Jalalabad in 1989.

6. He spent a lot of time in caves

In the late 1990s, for propaganda purposes, Bin Laden invited select journalists to meet him in caves near Tora Bora in eastern Afghanistan. However he lived in a much more comfortable compound a short drive away, near the former Soviet collective farm of Hadda owned by a local warlord. By 1999 he had moved to a complex of houses near Kandahar. When he was killed, he was living in a relatively comfortable detached house in Abbottabad, Pakistan. In between, there is no evidence that he spent any time living in caves. The rest of al-Qaida's senior militants appear to have lived in the semi-fortified houses that are common in the tribal zones.

7. He was a tearaway teenager who partied in Beirut before becoming religious.

There is no evidence for this either. Bin Laden appears to have been an intense, shy and pious youth who married young and spent an inordinate amount of time studying scripture.

8. He was near to dying of a kidney disease.

There are some reports – not least in the Guantánamo files – of renal problems but certainly not serious enough to kill him. It is more likely he had back problems caused by his height (around 6ft 5in) and relatively sedentary lifestyle.

9. He hid in Kashmir, was the leader of Chechen groups, was responsible for violence in the Philippines and in Indonesia, organised the Madrid 2004 attack and had an extensive network in Paraguay, sub-Saharan Africa and South Africa.

All these claims, made by various governments or intelligence services over the last decade have proved totally without foundation.

10. Bin Laden was an Arsenal fan

Despite fans reportedly chanting "Osama, woah-woah, Osama, woah-waoh, he's hiding in Kabul, he loves the Arsenal", Bin Laden was not a faithful of the north London club.

[horton]

^To add on to the above.

Surprising the BBC allowed him to publish this, normally they rarely criticise the White House. I'm still quite sceptical of it all, there's definitely something funny about how it's all emerged.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/05/the_white_house_has_had.html
The White House has had to correct its facts about the killing of Bin Laden, and for some that has diminished the glow of success that has surrounded all those involved in the operation.




Bin Laden wasn't armed when he was shot. It raises suspicions that this was indeed a deliberate shoot to kill operation.

Here are the inaccuracies in the first version. The woman killed was not his wife. No woman was used as a human shield. And he was not armed.

The president's press secretary Jay Carney suggested this was the result of trying to provide a great deal of information in a great deal of haste.

I can largely accept that. There is no mileage in misleading people and then correcting yourself. But the president's assistant national security advisor John Brennan had used the facts he was giving out to add a moral message - this was the sort of man Bin Laden was, cowering behind his wife, using her as a shield. Nice narrative. Not true. In fact, according to Carney this unarmed woman tried to attack the heavily armed Navy Seal. In another circumstance that might even be described as brave.

Jay Carney said that Bin Laden didn't have to have a gun to be resisting. He said there was a great deal of resistance in general and a highly volatile fire fight. The latest version says Bin Laden's wife charged at the US commando and was shot in the leg, but not killed. The two brothers, the couriers and owners of the compound, and a woman were killed on the ground floor of the main building. This version doesn't mention Bin Laden's son, who also died.

By this count only three men, at the most, were armed. I do wonder how much fight they could put up against two helicopters' worth of Navy Seals.

Does any of this matter? Well, getting the fact right is always important. You can't make judgement without them. We all make mistakes, and journalists hate doing so because it makes people trust us less. For those involved an operation like this, time must go past in a confused and noisy instant, and they aren't taking notes. Confusion is very understandable. But you start to wonder how much the facts are being massaged now, to gloss over the less appealing parts of the operation.

And of course there is the suspicion that the US never wanted to take Bin Laden alive. Here at least many see a trial as inconvenient, awkward - a chance for terrorists to grandstand. Look at all the fuss about the trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

In the confusion of a raid it's hard to see how the Seals could be sure that Bin Laden wasn't armed, didn't have his finger on the trigger of a bomb, wasn't about to pull a nasty surprise. If he had his hands in the air shouting "don't shoot" he might have lived, but anything short of that seems to have ensured his death.

I suspect there will be more worry about this in Britain nd Europe than in the US. That doesn't mean we are right or wrong. It is a cultural difference. We are less comfortable about frontier justice, less forgiving about even police shooting people who turn out to be unarmed, perhaps less inculcated with the Dirty Harry message that arresting villains is for wimps, and real justice grows from the barrel of a gun. Many in America won't be in the slightest bit bothered that a mass murderer got what was coming to him swiftly, whether he was trying to kill any one in that instant or not.

[dahamsta]

Can they have a DNA double as well?

"My friend's auntie met your brother's budgie in 2007, and collected a sample of its DNA. With that DNA, I'm 99% certain you have herpes."

^^^ That's about as believable as the US claim. The people that claim to have killed him, who have a huge investment in being right, are the people claiming the proof, using facial recognition software that's widely accepted as inaccurate, and DNA from un-named relations.

Again, I don't care whether he's dead or alive, and I don't think it makes one jot of a difference to the world today either way. However I won't believe anything the americans say until I see independent evidence from a respected third-party. Conventiently, they forgot to bring one along, so let's just leave it there.

Excellent points on the bizarrely undirected celebrations in New York - idiots holding up their camera phones to point at... what? - and the guff coming out of the US administration about the operation; although TBH I'd be as quick to blame Twitter as the Whitehouse for that.

Also, I have to admit to having giggled a little at the "direct US funding" line in the Guardian. It's so naive a child could have written it.

[Dodge]

Also, I have to admit to having giggled a little at the "direct US funding" line in the Guardian. It's so naive a child could have written it.

'Tis the tried and test Fianna Fail and Fine Gael route...

[Hurt Locker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick's_Battalion

Ask Captain John Riley what he thought of the US justice system? Hasn't really progressed that much!

Saying that Bin laden attack nearly killed my cousin in manhatten (only few blocks away). A very good schoolmate of mine who volunteered for the 9/11 clean up told me some horrific stories!

There are no winners in war, as the celibrating people of manhatten could find out again.