View Full Version : League format 2011-2012
harps1954
08/02/2011, 12:48 PM
Once the licences have been awarded, will any firm decision be made on whether it is 1 down, 3 up or two teams promoted and no relegation?
According to one of the papers today (I also heard this from a committee member at Harps) there will be no automatic relegation from Premier at end of this season. Top two in the First will be promoted, while last in the Premier will play third in the First in a two-legged play-off. Premier will therefore increase from 10 to 12 from 2012 season and First will reduce from 12 to 10 from 2012. Not sure what is happening at the bottom of the First, but 2011 will be the last year of the 'A' league.
BonnieShels
08/02/2011, 1:11 PM
Now if only we knew the make up of the premier and first division...
Mr Maroon
08/02/2011, 1:17 PM
According to one of the papers today (I also heard this from a committee member at Harps) there will be no automatic relegation from Premier at end of this season. Top two in the First will be promoted, while last in the Premier will play third in the First in a two-legged play-off.
I've heard the same except that the play-off will be one-legged and the Premier team will be at home.
passerrby
08/02/2011, 1:24 PM
dont think thats strictly true, depends on which premier team it is . some can play as many legs as required until they win.
pineapple stu
08/02/2011, 1:40 PM
And if Bray come last, I think someone has to go bust, yeah?
Schumi
08/02/2011, 1:47 PM
And if Bray come last, I think someone has to go bust, yeah?
Bray coming last may not be required for that.
Suggest we have a new thread on 'League Format 2011+2012' from harps1954's post instead of having it mixed with licensing. I appreciate that they're interrelated and all but it's really two topics.
legendz
08/02/2011, 2:07 PM
It has been suggested on this forum that A Championship clubs will be invited to Division One. Anyone know for sure what is happening?
BonnieShels
08/02/2011, 2:15 PM
Legendz, I think you misunderstand how football in Ireland works.
No one knows anything. And anything we do know is subject to caveats. And when the FAI announce something we will have to make sure disbelief is suspended and our pinches of salt are at the ready.
Jofspring
08/02/2011, 2:31 PM
From Limericks perspective they could do with keeping the A league for the 2012 season. We have a lot of players signed up with the A team and we are regularly using it for fringe players and players coming back from injury. If the A league is gone at the end of this season it is just going to be a case of sending the A players back to junior if they are not yet ready to step up to the first team and are too old for the under 20 team which would not help with bringing players through and keeping fringe players playing regularly.
legendz
08/02/2011, 2:42 PM
Agreed with Jofspring.
The main issue with the A Championship is some Premier clubs do not want to field an A side. I can't see why they cannot just remove the stipulation that Premier clubs have to field an A side. Some clubs will want to field a reserve side. Three first division clubs already field an A side despite not having to. If these three were joined by only 5 Premier clubs and 3 or 4 first team clubs looking to join the league, they A Championship can surely continue without being split into two groups.
For example:
Shamrock Rovers A
Sligo Rovers A
UCD A
Derry City A
Limerick A
Shelbourne A
Finn Harps A
Cobg Ramblers
FC Carlow
Tralee Dynamos
In this, if only 7 of the 22 LoI clubs fielded an A side and 3 other first team clubs wanted to be involved, the A Championsip can run as a single 10 team division. If more clubs join, they can vary the format. In last season's A Championship, clubs only got 16 league games. As long as they get 9 clubs in a single division, they will be on a par with that number of games.
It's odd that although the promotion places are expanded from 1 auto +1 via playoff to 2 auto +1 via playoff that the number of playoff spaces in the first has not been increased to give more first division clubs something to aim for. It'd be nice to see it go down to 4th at least- maybe have 3rd play 4th in a one off game with 3rd at home.
Glad to hear the extra premier playoff has been scrapped though, didn't like that one.
Edit- Legendz.. if the A league wasn't split you'd soon have more clubs looking to get out of it as the expenses for clubs and commitment necessary from players would go up.
legendz
08/02/2011, 2:58 PM
You might be right Mr. A. I think it is something they should look at first though before they do look to scrap the A league. The FAI should at least consult all the club's involved in this year's A league and gauge the interest. If they can get 10 clubs who will participate, they should go with it, if not, that's the end of it.
Re. the extra premier play-off. I agree with that. I've always thought 4 in the division one should be involved instead of 8th in the Premier.
peadar1987
08/02/2011, 3:35 PM
dont think thats strictly true, depends on which premier team it is . some can play as many legs as required until they win.
You can't blame us for wanting to maximise our gate receipts! We have walls to repair!
So with Galway United winning their appeal it looks like an 11 team first division this season. Limerick look to be fine as well.
With Drogheda having been promoted/unrelegated it now means Harps have to play their first three matches of the season away from home, with the first home match only being in April. If I have this right it also means we now have 14 home games, whereas some other clubs will have 16 (we were due to be 16 home but lost two, other clubs were due to have 17 but lost one).
Will the FAI redraft the fixture list?
legendz
18/02/2011, 9:38 AM
They should redraft it a small bit. Salthill as the lowest club from last season should be the club not to play on the last day of the season.
SupaJon
18/02/2011, 9:44 AM
With Drogheda having been promoted/unrelegated
As that's 2 seasons in a row, 'unrelegation' should become an official league placing.
harps1954
18/02/2011, 9:45 AM
Further to what Mr. A was saying above:
Harps first four fixtures of the season (as it stands) are:
Mar 4 - Cork City (a)
Mar 11 - FREE weekend (due to Drogheda's promotion)
Mar 18 - Shelbourne (a)
Mar 25 - Waterford Utd. (a)
No matchday income for the entire first month of the season. Added to the fact in that opening four games of the season, two are away to Cork and Waterford - the furthest two away fixtures.
Also, out of the 22 clubs in the original fixture list issued by the FAI, Harps were the only team to have been given three of their first four games away from home. The other 21 clubs were all given 2 home and 2 away.
However, it gets worse in the middle of the season. Harps play Salthill Devon at home on 22nd July and their next scheduled home game is against Mervue United on 16th September - two months later. Granted, their is the possibility of a home game in the FAI Cup, but that only means 50% gate receipts due to the sharing of the gate.
The fixture list (as it stands) for that period for Harps is:
July 29 - FREE weekend (due to Dublin Super Cup)
Aug 5 - Limerick (a)
Aug 12 - Cork City (a)
Aug 19 - FREE weekend (due to Drogheda's promotion)
Aug 26 - FAI Cup (which we could already be out of, or could be given an away game if still in it)
Sep 3 - Shelbourne (a)
Sep 9 - Waterford Utd. (a)
Shels, for example, in the same seven week period listed above, have four home league games. How the hell do they expect a club to go seven weeks in the middle of the season without any matchday income, after asking the same club to start the season without any matchday income for the first month.
KevB76
18/02/2011, 1:12 PM
No matchday income for the entire first month of the season.
Surely it's irrelevant what order the matches fall, I mean you do have your funds for the season already resting in an FAI account yeah? That applies to all clubs surely?
You can't blame us for wanting to maximise our gate receipts! We have walls to repair!
Not anymore, 3 sides have been taken down and will be replaced with a new fancy fencing system AFAIK
With a special arrangement for rowdy Monaghan fans:
http://www.footballspotter.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Polish_Football_Cage_2.jpg
Back on topic- surely the FAI cannot tolerate a situation where some clubs have 14 and others 16 home games.
legendz
18/02/2011, 2:44 PM
Back on topic- surely the FAI cannot tolerate a situation where some clubs have 14 and others 16 home games.
Yeah, good point. On that they will have to redraft the fixtures, 15 home and away games each.
KevB76
18/02/2011, 7:09 PM
I have it on good authority that the fixtures will be re-drafted for the first division
I have it on good authority that the fixtures will be re-drafted for the first division
We'll find out after Monday i suppose .
Hope they dont change our game on the 25th of March away to Shels, was hoping to make a weekend out of it with the Ireland game on the following day.
BonnieShels
19/02/2011, 9:15 PM
Not anymore, 3 sides have been taken down and will be replaced with a new fancy fencing system AFAIK
What's a fencing system? Are they not just fences?
Does it mean the new fences will electrocute Mons fans instead of falling on them?
BonnieShels
19/02/2011, 9:18 PM
We'll find out after Monday i suppose .
Hope they dont change our game on the 25th of March away to Shels, was hoping to make a weekend out of it with the Ireland game on the following day.
Once we dart with the Blaas and end with Athlone/Salthill/Mervue I'll be happy.
peadar1987
20/02/2011, 10:02 PM
What's a fencing system? Are they not just fences?
Does it mean the new fences will electrocute Mons fans instead of falling on them?
That's amateur, Shelbourne talk. Bray's fencing system can do both!
Jofspring
21/02/2011, 5:54 PM
Finally Official:
Premier Division:
Bohemians
Bray
Derry
Drogheda
Dundalk
Galway
Shamrock Rovers
Sligo Rovers
St.Pats
UCD
First:
Athlone
Cork
Finn Harps
Limerick
Longford
Mervue
Monaghan
Shelbourne
Salthill
Waterford
Wexford
Presume the new fixtures or the correction in them will be announced tomorrow. We had to wait a week longer for our license and if the fixtures stay the same we will also be waiting a week longer to start the season.
Lim till i die
21/02/2011, 5:58 PM
We had to wait a week longer for our license and if the fixtures stay the same we will also be waiting a week longer to start the season.
That's a pretty good excuse for a fudge right there.
Leave the fixtures as they are as it's the fairest way to give little Limerick some more extra time??
Jofspring
21/02/2011, 6:03 PM
That's a pretty good excuse for a fudge right there.
Leave the fixtures as they are as it's the fairest way to give little Limerick some more extra time??
"Due to the issues with Limericks license, in the interests of fairness the FAI have decided to show good faith to Limerick FC and allow them an extra week to prepare for the season ahead as the association feels it would be wrong to allow all the other clubs a week longer to prepare (except for Galway Utd of course)"
BonnieShels
22/02/2011, 12:08 AM
That's amateur, Shelbourne talk. Bray's fencing system can do both!
That's amateur trash talk. You're going down* biatch!
*until Galway go boom ca. 12months. And then you'll be right back up again.
Looking at the makeup of the two divisions you can't help but wonder how they continue to justify Cobh's absence from Div 1.
legendz
22/02/2011, 9:47 AM
Did they get a division one licence? I haven't heard any word from Cobh about it...
Jofspring
22/02/2011, 10:00 AM
Did they get a division one licence? I haven't heard any word from Cobh about it...
Just an A Licence. Don't think their taxes where up to scratch but I'm open to correction on that.
harps1954
22/02/2011, 10:40 AM
Just an A Licence. Don't think their taxes where up to scratch but I'm open to correction on that.
Probably 'the guy who signs these things' was off on holidays the day they went in to see the Taxman.
Ezeikial
27/02/2011, 10:21 AM
Sean Ryan in todays Sunday Indo has this to say about promotion/relegation:
That leaves Bray Wanderers (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Bray_Wanderers), Galway United (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Galway_United), UCD and Drogheda United to fight it out at the bottom to avoid the relegation play-off spot.
With two due to be promoted automatically from the First Division, Shelbourne and Waterford United have invested heavily to boost their hopes, and Monaghan United, Limerick and Finn Harps (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Finn_Harps) should also be in the mix for the play-off.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/demise-of-fingal-must-serve-as-warning-to-others-2558011.html
He reports this as fact, rather then speculation.
Have I missed the announcement by the FAI?
holidaysong
27/02/2011, 11:07 AM
There was no announcement. Must be 2 up and bottom vs. third in a play-off so. A Premier division of 12 teams next year would mean a first division of 9 teams if no club step up to take the Sporting Fingal place. Now that would be a joke. Maybe there should be a relaxing of the requirements for a First division licence is in order to allow all the A Championship teams who want to step up to do so.
Quayman
27/02/2011, 11:50 AM
Is this not the last year of the A League Could have sworn is was mentioned on here before. That they are reverting back to the under 20 league so Id imagine it would be perhaps 3 teams stepping up to the first or even regionalising the first similar to the current A League set up.
holidaysong
27/02/2011, 12:56 PM
The A Championship teams would still need First division licences if they wanted to step up though. None of them got one this year under the current criteria.
Ezeikial
06/03/2011, 12:40 AM
There was no announcement. Must be 2 up and bottom vs. third in a play-off so. A Premier division of 12 teams next year would mean a first division of 9 teams if no club step up to take the Sporting Fingal place. Now that would be a joke. Maybe there should be a relaxing of the requirements for a First division licence is in order to allow all the A Championship teams who want to step up to do so.
I keep thinking I must have missed this anouncement by the FAI. Bad enough that teams would progress with budgets for 2011 without being able to factor in the reality of promotion and relegation prospects, but if it were anything other the LoI it would be GUBU that a league could actually start without the outcomes being set out.
Surely this has never happened anywhere else before .....except of course in the FAI / IAG debacle 5 years ago
Anyone know when an annoucement is due?
Anyone know if that stupid split is even to be proposed next year? this should be opposed and very strongly too by all clubs. It will add nothing (but misery for 6 clubs) to the PD.
legendz
06/03/2011, 10:57 AM
Looking at the season ticket figures, I can see why Shamrock Rovers want to keep their 18 home league games.
I can't see why the Premier of 12 won't be played over 3 series as it was before. They've the same format in Denmark. The way they work it, the prize for finishing in the top 6 is having the extra home game in the following season. It gives those around 7th and 8th something to push for at the later stages of the season. The alternative is reversing the fixtures as per usual in Division One and as it was done before in the Premier.
Agreed with all on the split, it'll be misery for the 6 clubs involved.
Danish system for working the extra series:
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa236/pat_462/football/12split.jpg
Whatever format is agreed upon, hopefully the league can have a settled structure.
legendz
14/05/2011, 9:53 AM
Has there been any news or update on the structure for next season?
nigel-harps1954
14/05/2011, 2:55 PM
Has there been any news or update on the structure for next season?
They have decided whoever finishes bottom of the first will be promoted too. A bold move by Harps.
colonelwest
16/05/2011, 1:58 PM
Have to say I'm completely against a split for the last round of games. You only have to look at Scotland to see how well that's working out, Motherwell finished top six before the split and come the end of the season Inverness, who were in the bottom half, ended up 7 points better off and would have finished fifth ahead of Motherwell and Kilmarnock if the split wasn't there!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/tables/default.stm
The same has happened up North with Coleraine, Dungannon and Ballymena having more points than the teams immediately above them in the table come the end of the season:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/irish_prem_tables/default.stm
10 teams is too small for a national league with repitition being the killer but the one advantage it has is that you get an even number of home and away games per season. Whereas with 12 (or even up to 16 teams) it'll either have to be play each other 3 times, a split after 2 rounds or rotate the extra home game on a season by season basis like they do in the first which is equally as rubbish an idea. There's no easy solution really bar an AIL and that particular topic has been done to death over the years!
gufcfan
19/05/2011, 6:01 AM
Have to say I'm completely against a split for the last round of games. You only have to look at Scotland to see how well that's working out, Motherwell finished top six before the split and come the end of the season Inverness, who were in the bottom half, ended up 7 points better off and would have finished fifth ahead of Motherwell and Kilmarnock if the split wasn't there!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/tables/default.stm
The same has happened up North with Coleraine, Dungannon and Ballymena having more points than the teams immediately above them in the table come the end of the season:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/irish_prem_tables/default.stm
Neither point hold any water, as the points gained were against teams in their own side of the split.
Motherwell played Rangers, Celtic and Dundee who hammered them. They managed a draw against the two other top 6 teams, Kilmarnock and Hearts.
Caley Thistle won 5 of their 6 games after the split, against bottom half teams. They did beat Celtic 3-2 at home in the middle of that, but it was a re-arranged fixture from before the split.
In the north, Distillery had to play Linfield, Crusaders, Glentoran, Cliftonville (the only team that didn't beat them) and Portadown.
Coleraine, Dungannon and Ballymena played each other, as well as the bottom three of Glenavon, Donegal Celtic and Newry who hadn't won a game since 2010.
legendz
21/05/2011, 10:33 PM
Have to say I'm completely against a split for the last round of games. You only have to look at Scotland to see how well that's working out, Motherwell finished top six before the split and come the end of the season Inverness, who were in the bottom half, ended up 7 points better off and would have finished fifth ahead of Motherwell and Kilmarnock if the split wasn't there!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/tables/default.stm
The same has happened up North with Coleraine, Dungannon and Ballymena having more points than the teams immediately above them in the table come the end of the season:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/irish_prem_tables/default.stm
10 teams is too small for a national league with repitition being the killer but the one advantage it has is that you get an even number of home and away games per season. Whereas with 12 (or even up to 16 teams) it'll either have to be play each other 3 times, a split after 2 rounds or rotate the extra home game on a season by season basis like they do in the first which is equally as rubbish an idea. There's no easy solution really bar an AIL and that particular topic has been done to death over the years!
I'd agree with you for being with the split but would have to agree with the poster who points out that points earned in the lower half were against tougher opposition.
The Dane's have a 12 team top division. The Danish league is having decent success in Europe. The top two teams from their league will enter the Champions League qualifiers. They've shown 12 teams playing 3 times a season can work. The LoI had that before, there's no reason why that format can't be brought back. There is a slight imbalance in terms of the number of home and away games. The Danish system for dealing with that is that the prise for finishing in the top 6 is being rewarded the extra home game for the following season.
gufcfan
22/05/2011, 1:05 AM
The Dane's have a 12 team top division. The Danish league is having decent success in Europe.
The top two teams from their league will enter the Champions League qualifiers. They've shown 12 teams playing 3 times a season can work.
You make these two points as if the 12 team premier is the reason for their success in Europe.
legendz
22/05/2011, 4:06 PM
You make these two points as if the 12 team premier is the reason for their success in Europe.
It's not the reason for their success but they've shown that the system can work.
pineapple stu
22/05/2011, 4:53 PM
Without defining what you mean by "can work", the claim is meaningless.
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