Cycling 2011

[Stuttgart88]

Apparently George Hincapie's testimony to the US grand jury investigating Lance claims that he & Lance were both doping. This is acc to CBS news I think.

Source (http://m.independentmail.com/news/2011/may/21/upstate-cycling-champ-george-hincapie-says-he-supp/)

[Macy]

Apparently George Hincapie's testimony to the US grand jury investigating Lance claims that he & Lance were both doping. This is acc to CBS news I think.
If Hincapie did testify as such, Armstrong is really fecked - he can't be written off as bitter (for whatever reason) or a proven cheat like the others. Still a fairly big if, though at the moment. And that shouldn't be taken as any kind of defence or belief in Armstrong btw, it's just until it's published, I'm not sure Hincapie would spit in the soup.


I think the last week has shown that California is a higher priority for Garmin (and Radioshack) than the Giro. Martin is 14th with only a doddle of a stage left. Was in a breakway taht didn't make it a couple of nights ago (Eurosport had live coverage too). Not bad considering he's been a domestique for Danielson and Van de Velde

They were debating the Garmin performance last night on ITV, including specific mention of Martin, basically saying it's too early tell how good or bad their going as they're clearly focussed on the Le Tour. Whereas Radioshack, and the only rider up there with Contador (according to himself) where specifically building for this event.

Quite enjoyed the ITV coverage, but then I also enjoy the "Real Peleton" podcast which is Ned Boulting and Matt Rendell too, just a pity it's so infrequent. Can't say the same about the commentary. I know Ligget was always a bit dizzy, but the number of mistakes and repeats of the same comments he made was ridiculous - kinda started to wreck my head a bit.

[Billsthoughts]

Anyone know the longest ( by time ) stage of a grand tour in recent years. Today was over seven hours and took a phenomenal effort, even Contador was done at the end of it!

It seems to be a particularly savage Giro this year as well, anyone think this will take the edge off Contador for Le tour?

It was great to watch over the last 2 days
dont think he will end up riding the tour. was great stage yesterday. Deignan did particularly well not to be totally shot out the back into oblivion once he was the break away was eaten up.

[Macy]

dont think he will end up riding the tour. was great stage yesterday.
Yeah, I really can't see him starting the Tour - either CAS won't have ruled and ASO won't let him, or they'll have given him a (year) ban. Not sure how I feel about mad stages like that, or mad grand tour routes - they're a great for TV, but maybe they're pushing the limits of natural endurance just a little too far.

[Mr A]

Spanish rider Xavier Tondo dies after freak accident (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cycling/13503326.stm)

[Dodge]

Deignan on his Giro http://tinyurl.com/43rrkqb

He's on the long list for le Tour

[Dodge]

Deignan started the break today. Got too big though and he missed the split in the lead group when it happened. Finished 14th and is now in 50th overall

[Stuttgart88]

Spanish rider Xavier Tondo dies after freak accident (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cycling/13503326.stm)

Jeepers. Drug whistleblower dies in freak accident with nobody looking.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah, I really can't see him starting the Tour - either CAS won't have ruled and ASO won't let him, or they'll have given him a (year) ban. Not sure how I feel about mad stages like that, or mad grand tour routes - they're a great for TV, but maybe they're pushing the limits of natural endurance just a little too far.CAS hearing delayed. He might make Le Tour after all.

[Billsthoughts]

He has kinda ruined the giro with his invincibility. I hope he isnt on the tour. he hardly has a team supporting him but he has totally dominated. Its a bit unbeleivable. So many consecutive mountain stage and not so much as an uncomfortable day in the saddle. look at some of the other guys who won stages totally blown out the following day.

[Dodge]

I really think he is that good though. Although it's a weak field, and nobody has any kind o team around them. The tour would be different

[Macy]

CAS hearing delayed. He might make Le Tour after all.
This stinks to me, especially given it was his lawyers request. I hope ASO do have the power to block him, as if he rode and won, and then had to be stripped of two titles, then it would do even more damage to the sport.


I really think he is that good though. Although it's a weak field, and nobody has any kind o team around them. The tour would be different
Things that make you "hmmm". Although probably not as much as the shack guys riding away from the field in California!

[Dodge]

Yeah, I know I know but sometimes the cyclist is just better (and again, its a weak enough field)

The California thing is a bit different...

[Real ale Madrid]

Thats the lingering problem with cycling now - always suspicion before admiration.

[Macy]

Thats the lingering problem with cycling now - always suspicion before admiration.
Not necessarily, and I say that as a cynic (about everything), but certainly some riders will forever be tainted for me.

[the 12 th man]

Not necessarily, and I say that as a cynic (about everything), but certainly some riders will forever be tainted for me.

On a very basic level,I think the general public (me included) want to see riders banjaxed when they ride a very long hard stage or up a vertical mountain instead of not even being out of breath.I honestly think there is a hunger out there for the sport and a potential for a lot more people to watch cycling again but the drugs issue hangs over the sport like a bad smell and seems to overshadow anything positive about it (in the eyes of the public).

The latest Armstrong accusations another damaging blow :mad:

[Billsthoughts]

for me Contador was caught cheating. He shouldnt be cycling. The contaminated meat thing is a bit unrealistic. He also had plasticisers in his blood(as far as I remember). Have no doubt he would still be a top rider without drugs but dont think he would be so dominating. Think everyone desrves the benefit of the doubt but not in this case where he has been caught.

On a brighter note - is it just schleck or contador for tour? anyone think any other contenders? Basso?

[Dodge]

Nicolas Roche just tweeted

"For a quick update on my race program:
Dauphine, irish champs, tdf, san sebastien, vuelta"

Good news

[Macy]

Kinda under pressure now, given Gadret's performance in the Giro.

[Macy]

I honestly think there is a hunger out there for the sport and a potential for a lot more people to watch cycling again but the drugs issue hangs over the sport like a bad smell and seems to overshadow anything positive about it (in the eyes of the public).
I agree, but I also think there's a lot of hypocrisy from sportsfans about cycling/ doping. No one bats and eyelid at a footballer taking a painkilling injection - in fact they'd be held up as hero for being so committed - yet that'd be a failed test and 2 year ban and endless stories about how fecked the sport is, if it was a cyclist.

There's as many stories/ rumours about football (and other sports) being linked to the very same doctors at the centre of many of the cycling doping programmes, but that information appears to be surpressed. And those allegations have been leveled at the best, most skillful team in the world ever too, and no one even questions could it be true and whether it could be to their advantage. There's been the allegations in Italy too that even went as far as trials, and I've read that one of the players in a recent enough world cup final had a hematocrit level of 60% - that's Riis level ffs!

I know it's a whataboutery defence, it just pees me off - until all sports have the same testing procedures, we won't know whether cycling is really the basket case of the sports world it is assumed to be.

[Dodge]

Kinda under pressure now, given Gadret's performance in the Giro.

Maybe but Roche was 7th in a more talented Vuelta field so its not like he's lacking his own chops. And, of course, his whole season seems set around the tour for the first time

[Mr A]

Roche was right up there throughout in the first stage of the Dauphine.. came in 5th in a very fragmented field. Not a big mountain stage but good to see him going well.

Martin was 25th, 54 seconds down.

[Stuttgart88]

I agree, but I also think there's a lot of hypocrisy from sportsfans about cycling/ doping. No one bats and eyelid at a footballer taking a painkilling injection - in fact they'd be held up as hero for being so committed - yet that'd be a failed test and 2 year ban and endless stories about how fecked the sport is, if it was a cyclist.

There's as many stories/ rumours about football (and other sports) being linked to the very same doctors at the centre of many of the cycling doping programmes, but that information appears to be surpressed. And those allegations have been leveled at the best, most skillful team in the world ever too, and no one even questions could it be true and whether it could be to their advantage. There's been the allegations in Italy too that even went as far as trials, and I've read that one of the players in a recent enough world cup final had a hematocrit level of 60% - that's Riis level ffs!

I know it's a whataboutery defence, it just pees me off - until all sports have the same testing procedures, we won't know whether cycling is really the basket case of the sports world it is assumed to be.I reckon soccer & rugby union are weak on doping.

A year before the 2007 RWC the NZ team had a training camp and they publicised it by relaesing photos, designed to initimidate the other teams. The players were all absolutely ripped. I immediately thought they looked like American gym fanatics who all take Human Growth Hormone.

Is that true re-pain killing injections? Would they fail a cycling doping test?

I think the suspicion with Contador is that he was blood doping. He infused himself with a sample of his own blood that had been refrigerated, but the offending subtance (chlenbuterol?) hadn't fully removed itself from his blood when he froze it. He's doubly tainted anyway, because his initials were on a blood doping list found in Operation Puerto I think.

A real shame. US track & field is riddled with doping abuse I'm sure. The whole of the US fitness business is.

[Mr A]

Gadret says he'll ride a support role if he does the Tour. (http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8661/Gadret-considering-Tour-participation-would-play-support-role-if-he-goes.aspx)

The ballbag.

[Mr A]

Roche 9th today and up to 5th in GC. No word on Martin yet. Edit- Martin lost nearly 8 minutes. Ouch.

It'll be interesting to see how they go in the big mountains.

[Dodge]

Wonder what happened Martin. Must've been caught behind a crash as a few good riders in that group (his nominal leader Zabriskie included).

[Macy]

Wonder what happened Martin. Must've been caught behind a crash as a few good riders in that group (his nominal leader Zabriskie included).
Could he have just been on domestique duties?

[Mr A]

Roche was 43rd in today's time trial and is down to 16th overall. Martin 90th today and 118th overall.

Roche promising aggression in the mountains via Twitter.

[Dodge]

Could he have just been on domestique duties?

Yeah, that's why I mentioned Zabriskie. Could be freed up for the mountains now too

[Real ale Madrid]

Roche was 43rd in today's time trial and is down to 16th overall. Martin 90th today and 118th overall.

Roche promising aggression in the mountains via Twitter.

He has no choice now but to be aggressive, he will never achieve his ambitions as a team leader unless his TT's improve.

[Mr A]

Contador accused of mechanical doping. (http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8703/Guimard-claims-Contador-could-have-used-mechanical-doping-in-Giro-dItalia.aspx)

Whatever about this specific allegation, it seems incredible that the cycling authorities have stopped looking for this. Have they learned nothing at all from their past?

It really would depress you.

Also thought it was interesting that 5 of the Mexico squad tested positive (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/13719472.stm) for clenbuterol. Looks like dodgy meat again.

[Macy]

I honestly don't know for sure, but a few of the comments underneath suggest there were checks on several Giro stages. I guess the final bike used might not have been one with the motor though.

[Mr A]

Pretty bad crash for Roche by the sound of it.. he'll struggle to stay in contention.

Edit.. he lost 25 minutes. Hopefully he'll be able to continue, seems like it was a pretty serious crash. Martin finished in the top ten.

[Real ale Madrid]

Just finished David Walsh's book from Lance to Landis. Enjoyable read, reads like a crusade against Drugs rather than a set of stories, a must read for anyone interested / involved in the sport.

[Dodge]

Dan Martin won the Giro della Toscana

Seems the last spot on the Garmin Cervelo tour team is between him and Tom Danielson (who finished a good 8th in the Tour de Suisse)

[Mr A]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUYf2EJBwaE

[Stuttgart88]

Pretty exciting finish to the Tour of Switzerland, Leipheimer time-trialling his way to a 3 (or 4?) second overall victory over Cunego. Cunego had a 2 minute lead to defend but didn't.

[Mr A]

John Gadret is going to ride the tour. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/john-gadret-to-ride-tour-de-france

It would be great if he genuinely rode for Roche.

[Macy]

Danielson confirmed for Garmin for the tour, but full team not announced yet.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/danielson-named-for-debut-tour-de-france

[Mr A]

Doesn't look good for Martin but there is still hope I guess.

Radioshack confirm Deignan won't be selected: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8812/Team-Radioshack-leaders-named-for-Tour-de-France-five-more-riders-to-be-decided.aspx

[Dodge]

Garmin also announced that VanSummeran had signed an extended deal. Sorry that should read, Paris Roubaix winner Johan Vansummeran signed an extended deal

No why do that unless you're trying too either justify his inclusion or soften his blow.

The only other possible 'out' is Le mevel who rode hard in Itlay, but I'd imagine they'd like a French rider in the Tour

[Dodge]

No tour for Martin

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8846/Dan-Martin-to-miss-Tour-de-France-disappointed-at-not-being-selected-by-Garmin-Cervelo.aspx

[Dodge]

Matt Brammeier had a good weekend, winning the Irish time trial championship and then outsprinting Dan Martin to retain his national road race championship

So the Irish champions jersey will remain in the ProTour for another few months anyway

EDIT; Jaysus that was close

http://lockerz.com/s/114378165

[Macy]

EDIT; Jaysus that was close

http://lockerz.com/s/114378165
Any kind of lunge from Martin and he'd have had it by the looks of that photo. I'd hope that Martin at least has a chance of going into the Vuelta as a protected rider. Mind you Vande Velde will probably crash out and Danielson will get sick at the Tour, and then Vaughters will just push his love children into the next Grand Tour...

[Stuttgart88]

So, how best to interpret Martin's standing at the moment?

A real talent, just not ready yet?
A decent cyclist, but not good enough - we're overhyping him a bit because we're so keen to see another Irishman go well in the TdF?

[Mr A]

I think he's the real deal, but the allergies hold him back a bit and mean he can be maddeningly inconsistent.

[Dodge]

A decent cyclist, but not good enough - we're overhyping him a bit because we're so keen to see another Irishman go well in the TdF?

Cycling Quotient have him ranked 22nd in the world (http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingRider.asp?current=1)

The new IG pro cycling index has him ranked 14th in the world (http://www.igmarkets.com/procyclingindex)

Martin's won a ProTour title, numerous semi classics and a couple of mid ranked stage races. He's finished top ten in the hardest Grand Stage tour I've ever seen (Giro last year) and all while riding support for Vande Velde, Wiggins or Hysdjel (and even Farrar, Haussler and Hushovd)

He was picked for the 2009 Tour but got a late knee injury so Vaughters obviously thought he was ready then. its just that the Garmin Cervelo team is so strong now, he doesn't quite fit what they're looking for. He's almost too strong to be a domestique now but with the 2 leaders having finished top ten in the tour the previous 2 years, they couldn't really be left out

Will be interesting to see Martin being given the leader's role in the Vuelta though

[Macy]

To be a genuine Grand Tour contender, he'll have to work on his timetrialling a bit imo. I'm actually surprised he hasn't come on in that regard, as I would've thought Garmin would've been quite progressive in terms of equipment, access to wind tunnels etc. I think he's still young enough to develop. And he can win, so even if he doesn't emerge as a GC contender in a three week tour, he has a chance in the hilly classics (as his semi classics wins have shown) and there's several of week long tours as well. He has more potential than his cousin, imo.

I do like the ethos of Garmin, but I'm beginning to wonder are they trying to be too many things to too many riders. He clearly suffered because of this for the Tour this year - they're trying to do the sprints, overall, and stage wins and TTT. Maybe when the Cervelo merge works it's way out of the system it'll become clearer, and obviously Vande Velde and Danielson are both the wrong side of 30. Ryder Hesjedal is unlikely to get a course to suit him as much as last year either, so there could be a reassessment of his status there too. So in paragraph I've talked my way around from maybe he needs a move to that he should hang tight and let the team settle down! :)

On the allergies - it seems like it was a bit of freak how late they affected him this year, and he'd normally be over them by the Dauphine. Greg Lemond suffered from early summer allergies (undiagnosed until late in his career) - it was what he put down as the reason he could never be competitive at the Giro anyway.

[Mr A]

Dan Martin Interview


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YKvqt4alV90

[Mr A]

Nicolas Roche speaks ahead of Le Tour. (http://www.rte.ie/sport/cycling/2011/0629/cycling_rochen.html)