Sunderland lose on penalties

[Condex]

Breen & McAteer had good games.
Thornton played OK but looks at least a stone over weight.

But under McCarthy they play horrible football, ball hoofed forward
at every opportunity.

[pineapple stu]

Anyone see Phil Babb's clinical finish in the shoot-out, or was I imagining it?! :eek:

Gary Breen's spot kick wasn't bad either, but yer man who tried the Aldridge should be shot, or at least transfer listed!

[4tothefloor]

Babb's finish was class, as was Breen's. JW should be given the blow dryer treatment after that. What a tosser, you only do that sort of thing if you're a regular penalty taker, and good at that. So that's 5 Irish players still in Division 1 next year............On another note, Ian dowie is an ugly ******* :D

[Beavis]

Shame about result.....tactics due to McC.'s misguided approach in persisting with Kevin Kyle.....who makes Alan Lee look like Pele....!
Kevin Kyle was their best player in both legs

Very dissapointing,esp. being only 2 mins away from the final.......

[NeilMcD]

I am sure if they practised penalties Mc Carthy would have realised that yer man Whitley takes penalties like that but then again that would be preparing for penalties and sure why would you want to do something like that. It is much better fun going to the press afterwards and saying my lads gave it all and we were unlucky. Does he ever think that no person can have that amount of bad luck, and actually it may not be bad luck at all.

[nifan]

Dunno what whitely was thinking!
But why Kyle never took a penalty by the 7th person - he is a striker ffs and whitely is a holding midfielder (more reason not to try to be di canio)

Good to see Hughsie take the plaudits though - he had a terrible 16 months out

[only1kilbane]

If you look at the quality of kyle for a bit striker at his age 22 and what Niall Quinn was like at his age the signs are great for kyler ! If only he was irish would be a great foil for Robbie Keane. Alan Lee will never really be a patch on him. Watching game last night in pub in my sunderland jersey and when jayo missed the pen some gimp shouted out **** off you english ****** come on keano ! The mentality of some of the people in Ireland is unbelievable. They were not shouting that when he scored against holland were they ?

[NeilMcD]

Well you never know they might have been saying when he scored look at the ****ing muppet been there at the right place at the right time and good finish but he was lucky to be still on the pitch as the protection he gave garry kelly in that match was terrible. Football is a funny game and there are times when someone scores in a game and becomes the hero but in fact they have had a poor game. That is what happened against Holland. but in the away game Mc Ateer played very well. I think last nights game does show that Mc Carthy is still lost in the world where he thinks he is unlucky at last minute goals etc and penalty shoot outs. This is nothing to do with luck, its to do with attitude and preparation and basically reducing your chances of loosing. Man Utd won a serious number of games in the lastt few minutes. This is not luck it is to do with attitude and team spirt and skill too. I wonder did sunderland practice their penos before the game. I woudl say the Palace lads did as Dowie comes across as the sort of manger who looks at the science of management rather than Mc Carthys heart on the sleeve approach.

[Condex]

Kevin Kyle is one of the poorest players I've seen in a long time, and is not the sort of player Ireland need. No wonder Scotland are struggling.

[NeilMcD]

Scotland got to the play offs and beat holland at home in the play offs and beat Iceland away and drew with Germany at home. We did not get to the play offs so if they are struggling well what are we doing. There form in friendlies has been terrible but then again should a team be judged on friendlies or real matches. Kyle was the best Sunderland player against Millwal and was winning everything in the 2nd half against them but of course Mc Carthy decided to take him off just as he was dominating the match. Andy Gray, Martin Tyler, Niall Quinn were all left dumbstruck by the substitution.

[Beavis]

Kevin Kyle is one of the poorest players I've seen in a long time, and is not the sort of player Ireland need. No wonder Scotland are struggling.

As usual Condex I disagree with your every post.Can't for the life of me understand this.Even Chris Kamara was saying that they had most success with high balls in towards him.He was by far the biggest threat Sunderland had going forward.He was about the only thing the Palace backs couldn't deal with and scored 2 good goals in the games,the second one showed particular skill(chest down in the box ffs!hardly easy).....


Good to see Hughsie take the plaudits though - he had a terrible 16 months out
Shouldn't have been still on after that stamp on McAteer...obviously a Keanite ;)


I think last nights game does show that Mc Carthy is still lost in the world where he thinks he is unlucky at last minute goals etc and penalty shoot outs. This is nothing to do with luck, its to do with attitude and preparation and basically reducing your chances of loosing.
Here we go again..... :rolleyes:

[Bowsy]

Scotland got to the play offs and beat holland at home in the play offs and beat Iceland away and drew with Germany at home. We did not get to the play offs so if they are struggling well what are we doing. There form in friendlies has been terrible but then again should a team be judged on friendlies or real matches.

They drew with the Faroe Islands and were lucky to only lose the return leg to Holland 6-0. Whatever about our situation Scotland's is far worse.
Kyle is a poor man's Quinner. Can do a job but hardly the answer to anyone's prayers.

[only1kilbane]

I think people who are saying kyle is poor have not seen many sunderland games then. Ask any Sunderland fan what they think of him now they will all say how he has improved greatly and 16 goals in a season dont show him up as a poor striker. We need a big man up front ourselves and i really dont have too much faith in alan lee.

And to slag mick after the heroics he has worked this season is childish .

[Bowsy]

And to slag mick after the heroics he has worked this season is childish .

Fair Play. McCarhty inherited a nightmare at Sunderland and nearly got them straight back into the Premier. To blame his tactical sense is a bit much when they went out to a lst minute goal where Poom was clearly fouled by Shipperley.

[NeilMcD]

Sorry it is not childish, Mc Carthy is at the level that he belongs at, he is a guy that will get the team playing with guts and determination but when it really comes down to it they will blow it as he does not have the expertise or professionalism of a top manger. He is a bit like Kevin Keegan in that way, manages with the heart rather than the head. Probably a nice man but not clinical enough to be at the top. Sunderland have a stadium of 40,000 or course they should be chasing promotion to the top league. He has done a decent job there but not heroics. The facts are that he took them over in the Premier league when they were doomed and he manged to lose all a load of matches, not his fault but not heroics either. Then the next season they got to the play offs, but so did joe royle, alan pardew and ian dowie. Ian Dowie took over when place where looking like heading to the 2nd. SO again hardly heroics. He has done a decent job to steady the ship but no more or no less. I would nearly put money on again that next season they will have another hard luck story to tell. Mc Carthy is the king of Hard luck stories. Remember this is the guy that took Kyle off againt millwall. And this thing about last minute goals, that is not unlucky. Anyone remember Croatia, Macedonia, all last minute goals. It is about attitude and playing till the end etc.

[NeilMcD]

They drew with the Faroe Islands and were lucky to only lose the return leg to Holland 6-0. Whatever about our situation Scotland's is far worse.
Kyle is a poor man's Quinner. Can do a job but hardly the answer to anyone's prayers.


The idea of a competitino is to get as high in the group as possible. They got second we got third. I am not saying they are a better team then us, be we are in no positino to be slagging off the Scottish team.

Penalties are a lottery but the managers job is to reduce that lottery by making sure that the players practice and practice the penalties as much as possible. THat is why Germany have won so many penalties. Taking a penalty is second nature to them. The same with Birmingham the season they went up they pracised the walk everything. If peole here like the mangers to be nice guys who wear the heart on their sleeve and roar like a sea lion well thats all well and good. But in the professional era and in the clinical world of sport you need to look at these things in a scientific way. mc Carthy is at the level he belongs and he will go no further I have been sayi8ng that for the last 8 years. It is why he shoudl have not got the Irish job in the first place and he still has not learnt. This has nothing to with Roy Keane. I think that Sunderland fans are in for an exciting season next season as they will probably be chasing promotion and get a decent cup run etc. but when it really boils down to it they will be just short. That is the story of Mc Carthys career he is just short every time and it will continue like this as you need more than a heart to be successful

[Bowsy]

The idea of a competitino is to get as high in the group as possible. They got second we got third. I am not saying they are a better team then us, be we are in no positino to be slagging off the Scottish team.



Well that's like saying Saudi Arabia were better than Holland because they qualified for last world cup. Not slagging Scotland off but they have a poor side with only Fletcher and the over rated McFadden coming through. Very few of the Scottish side would get into the Ireland team.

[Condex]

As usual Condex I disagree with your every post.Can't for the life of me understand this.Even Chris Kamara was saying that they had most success with high balls in towards him.He was by far the biggest threat Sunderland had going forward.He was about the only thing the Palace backs couldn't deal with and scored 2 good goals in the games,the second one showed particular skill(chest down in the box ffs!hardly easy).....


No really bothered if you disagree with my post. I've watched a number of
Sunderland matches on TV this season and in my opinion Kyle is a donkey and Sunderland would need at least 6/7 new quality players.

[NeilMcD]

Well that's like saying Saudi Arabia were better than Holland because they qualified for last world cup. Not slagging Scotland off but they have a poor side with only Fletcher and the over rated McFadden coming through. Very few of the Scottish side would get into the Ireland team.

I find it funny you quoted me , where i said i am not saying scotland are better than ireland, and then you go on to say that it is like saying saudi arabia are better than hollan because they qualified for the last world cup. Now if you are giong to put up arguments against my post at least read what i say. You are only making your self look rather silly.

[Bowsy]

I find it funny you quoted me , where i said i am not saying scotland are better than ireland, and then you go on to say that it is like saying saudi arabia are better than hollan because they qualified for the last world cup. Now if you are giong to put up arguments against my post at least read what i say. You are only making your self look rather silly.

Hardly making myself look rather silly but accept defeat on that technicality.

[NeilMcD]

its not a technicality its the crux of the argument, We are in no position to slag them off, as their record in the last qualifiers was better than ours. however that does not mean that i think that scotland are a better team. It just means we cannot slag them off as people in glass houses should not throw stones.

[only1kilbane]

Yeah kyles goal and overall play were very donkey like last night werent they and also his 16 goals this season what a donkey !! For a big man he has great control with his feet and if as you say you actually watch sunderland a bit you would have seen his quality in these games. They are not far from been a very good first division side and 2 or 3 changes in the summer would do it. Remember they played the last 5 games without julio arca their best player !

[Schumi]

Might be a good thing for Sunderland in one way. If they strengthen their squad in the summer and go up next season, they're more likely to have a chance of staying in the Premier the season after.

[Bowsy]

its not a technicality its the crux of the argument, We are in no position to slag them off, as their record in the last qualifiers was better than ours. however that does not mean that i think that scotland are a better team. It just means we cannot slag them off as people in glass houses should not throw stones.

You originally said it better they be judged by competitive matches not dreadful friendly results. I gave some competitve examples. Didn't slag them off just said their situation is worse than ours which it is in terms of their current squad. Closest anyone got to slagging them off was Condex by saying no wonder they were struggling with players like Kyle which hardly what you'd call bitchy. Where they finished in the group is not comparing like with like as Russia, Switzerland, Georgia, Albania are a trickier obstacle than Faroes, Lithuania, Germany and Iceland IMO. Don't recall this thread ever being used to slag off Scotland.

[NeilMcD]

I think there group was about the same as ours, World Cup finalists and iceland beat us a few years ago so not a bad team, and lithuania are as good as georgia or albania. They got to the play offs , we didnt that is a fact. So I dont think we can be saying that they are struggling and not realise that we may be struggling too they have some realy good young players coming through.

[Bowsy]

When did Iceland beat us? Remember drawing nil all at home with them and winning 4-2 away.
All comes down to opinion. IMO I find it hard to see anyone other than Fletcher, McNamara, Pearson, McFadden and Dickov making the Irish squad. Of them you cannot pick anyone of Keane, Duff, RMK, Cunningham, Carr or Given's quality. Pearson, McFadden and Fletcher are only as proven as Miller, Reid and the like. All i ever said was Scottish football is in a worse state than Irish football and i stick by that.

[finlma]

Breen & McAteer had good games.
Thornton played OK but looks at least a stone over weight.

But under McCarthy they play horrible football, ball hoofed forward
at every opportunity.

McCarthy probably didn't notice that Palace were down to 10 men (again). Not the sharpest tick in the box is Mick!!

[NeilMcD]

yeah that is what i was trying to say earlier, ten men, last minute goals, peno shoot out, oh he is so unlucky our mick but he is a nice man and thats what counts. Sure we might as well get daniel o donnel to manage the team

[Plastic Paddy]

Sure we might as well get daniel o donnel to manage the team

Well, my mother for one would take a more active interest if we did... :D :D

:D PP

[finlma]

yeah that is what i was trying to say earlier, ten men, last minute goals, peno shoot out, oh he is so unlucky our mick but he is a nice man and thats what counts. Sure we might as well get daniel o donnel to manage the team

I do feel sorry for Sunderland supporters having him in charge.

[only1kilbane]

For **** sake ! Mick has had a great season this year and had an excellent world cup without captain fantastic the legend that is sickboy ! He has put Sunderland into a fa cup semi and playoff position. At the start of the season all sunderland fans would have been thrilled with this. Hopefuly next season with a few decent signings he can show his true quality and get the lads promoted

[Plastic Paddy]

Hopefuly next season with a few decent signings he can show his true quality and get the lads promoted

I don't think Sunderland have the money for any signings at all, o1k. I'm sure I saw an interview with the chairman (Bob Murray?) recently saying as much...

:confused: PP

[Beavis]

Remember they played the last 5 games without julio arca their best player !
Definitely.Think they missed Julio more than you'd expect.McCartney was weak defensively in this playoff,Arca has become a quality defender under Mick and also can give that spark of creativity when needed (eg in extra time yesterday).

Hopefuly next season with a few decent signings he can show his true quality and get the lads promoted
As PP said its doubtful money will be available.I'd say he'll bring in Morrison and one or two loan/free-ers.A few of the players are getting on but I hope the team sticks together for another year.Can't think of any players who'd be preyed on by Premiership clubs in the close season ,other than Arca.They need to get Healy back for the beginning of next year cos that Whitley chap isn't great.Thorton looks a good prospect also.

[WeAreRovers]

Oh how I laughed. :D

Great to see the two muppets McCarthy and McAteer lose out. Do you think McCarthy had them practising penalties? You can bet Dowie did.

Dowie took Palace from relegation fodder to Cardiff in a matter of months - now that's a good manager.

BTW Arca is off to West Brom. You read it here first. ;)

KOH

[only1kilbane]

hopefully we will get a few decent loans in robinson had done well since he arrived would be good to keep. With healy back and a few decent loans maybe morrison in things can only improve. Hopefully arca will stay i think he is better than west brom anyway. He seems very committed to sunderland is adored by the fans and mick has played him where he wants unlike wilkinson he wouldnt play him at all !

People that laugh at mc ateer are just pig ignorant to me . Seems silly to laugh at your own ?

[Slash/ED]

For **** sake ! Mick has had a great season this year and had an excellent world cup without captain fantastic the legend that is sickboy !

I wouldn't call our world cup anything even close to 'excellent'

[only1kilbane]

so if the penos had have gone the other way ?

You cant please some people. I thought losing to spain on penos and drawing with the finalists after all the furore with sicknote was pretty good !

[WeAreRovers]

Conor - I hated McCarthy long before Saipan. I started hating him as a player. He summed up all that was rotten about the Charlton era. When he got the manager's job I seriously looked into changing nationality. ;)

Sapain merely confirmed what a moron the man is and as for our "excellent" World Cup, don't get me started.

Hopefully this will spell the end of the "McCarthy is a good manager" myth which I've had to listen to for far too long from barstoolers everywhere.

Nigel Worthington, Gary Megson and Iain Dowie are good managers, McCarthy patently is not.

I'm off to practice penalties. :D

KOH

PS Only 1Kilbane - West Brom: Premier League, Sunderland: 1st Division. And WTF do you think Kilbane came from? :confused:

[only1kilbane]

You muppet , Kilbane came from wbrom to sunderland thus he sees it as a step up which it is . No Point in arca going to wbrom where he will bounce back again next year to div1. Im not saying he should stay at sun though i hope he does just that he far better than the likes of wba.

[Slash/ED]

so if the penos had have gone the other way ?

You cant please some people. I thought losing to spain on penos and drawing with the finalists after all the furore with sicknote was pretty good !

How can loseing to a 9 man team in any way be 'pretty good'?

That was (one of) the problems under McCarthy, we not only accepted defeat we glorified it.

The world cup consisted of drawing with two average sides, beating the worst side in the tournaments history, and loseing to a team with 9 men who are world famous for being completley useless at major tournaments, who proved that in the next round loseing to South Korea.

You can't legislate for pennos, obviously, they could have gone either way, but we should never have had to go to penaltys in the first place.

[NeilMcD]

See it does not have to come down to roy keane, people had opinions on Mick Mc Carthy before Saipan happened. THat is the thing tat people forget they think tht Anti Mc Carthyites just sprang out of the wood work durig Saipan. I was ****ed of with McC arthy for the following reasons

3-5-2 formation and ian harte and centre back

Roy Keane at sweeper

Asking irwin to prove him wrong

Making McGrath go to Bryan Adams concert

Playin for 0-0 against Croatia

Bringing Matt HOlland on against Macedonia at right back in the final minutes

Haing no penotaker in Romania and eventually keane stoodup and missed

I am sure there is lots and lots more but the biggest thing is not expectingto win

Celebrating after we drewwith holland after we led 2-0, asking roy keane to pose for the media as it would makehim look good.

Having Ian Evans as assistant.

Then at WOrld Cup 2002 he made lots of blunders too.
He is a manager for the 1st Division,that is were he deservesto be

[Plastic Paddy]

Making McGrath go to Bryan Adams concert

You have a point Neil. He'd have made a mortal enemy of me too if he forced me to sit through two hours of that crap... :D

:D PP

[Macy]

AFAIK, Sunderland still had the highest wage bill in the division. All this talk of having no money is b0llox from what I can see.

Oh, nice to see McAteer was so gutted at missing out on the chance of promotion that he turned up on shíte TV show last night - for charidee or not, bad form IMO.

[Plastic Paddy]

Oh, nice to see McAteer was so gutted at missing out on the chance of promotion that he turned up on shíte TV show last night - for charidee or not, bad form IMO.

I think a little perspective is called for here. His team lost a play-off match. No-one died. No doubt it was a long-standing commitment to appear on TV; certainly one arranged before the play-off fixtures were known. What's the man supposed to do? Long face and a black armband? Come on... :rolleyes:

:) PP

[only1kilbane]

I really dont get the hate that people have for mc ateer. People are going to be divided with mc carthy but now cause of the incident at the sunderland manu game its either judas or mc ateer. He has been a great servant to Ireland and still has a lot to offer to the team. As for tv last night so what its for bloody charity for gods sake . As said above obviously was prior commitment. Im sure he was as gutted as anyone but is he meant to hide away ?

[finlma]

so if the penos had have gone the other way ?

You cant please some people. I thought losing to spain on penos and drawing with the finalists after all the furore with sicknote was pretty good !

In 94 we beat the eventual finalists. It doesn't make Charlton a good manager.

I was another person disgusted when McCarthy was given the Irish job and I celebrated the day he left. He proved the person he is when he told Denis Irwin to "go prove himself". Denis Irwin has nothing to prove and McCarthy has everything.

[Greenbod]

In 94 we beat the eventual finalists. It doesn't make Charlton a good manager.

I was another person disgusted when McCarthy was given the Irish job and I celebrated the day he left. He proved the person he is when he told Denis Irwin to "go prove himself". Denis Irwin has nothing to prove and McCarthy has everything.

Every manager has every right to tell any player to go out and prove themselves.

[Macy]

may be a fan of Roy
Sure I always thought you hated him? Selected editting is great Conor :rolleyes:

[finlma]

Every manager has every right to tell any player to go out and prove themselves.

He didn't tell him to prove himself, he told him to prove him wrong. In other words McCarthy thought Irwin wasn't good enough.
Denis Irwin is a very placid man but he was riled when McCarthy said that to him and rightly so.

[finlma]

Roy was playing, McCarthy wasn't manager.

How come our record was 1 win, 1 draw against Norway and 2 bad losses. that sounds pretty poor to me.

And I thought Korea Japan was supposed to be the disaster, and with Roy playing we would have won it, and romped home against Brazil etc. etc. etc.

I never mentioned Roy Keane, what are you talking about? You seem to have some sort of sad obsession with bringing it back to him every time.
Also, I never said we had a good tournament in the US. I was using only1kilbane's method of measuring success. We had a very poor tournament then but a good win against Italy.