Sunderland lose on penalties [Archive] - Page 2

NeilMcD

19/05/2004, 9:27 AM

Exactly I think some people dont realise that you can criticise Mick Mc Carthy as a manager and it have absolutely nothing to do with Roy Keane at all. Roy Keane is a flawed man but is a great footballer. But people like me and others here had problems with Mc Carthy as manager because number one

he did not have enough experience as he had only managed at Division 1 with Millwall for a few years. Joe Kinnear should have been offered the job without an interview. Then when he did have the job he tried load of ideas that were so flawed it was not true, please see my earlier e mail for that. This is all before his run in with Keane in Saipan. My criticisms of Mc Carthy were there before Saipan and remain afterwards as he still is what is always will be, a nice guy but his is only a Division 1 manager. Now if people here are happy for hard luck stories and heroic failures and nearly men, well then so be it, but I prefer the Irish football team to be managed by a guy that wants the best of everything (again this was a view i had before Saipan so it has nothing to do with Keane, fail to prepare, prepare to fail comment) Unfortunately Mc Carthy is such a nice man that he does not like to upset the suits and demand certain things to be done. So Conor please lose your fascination with Roy Keane, Some of us here admire his talents, no more or no less but he is not the centre of every argument.

Bowsy

19/05/2004, 9:34 AM

McCarthy is not the greatest manager in the world but it's not really his fault he was offered the job. Wouldn't criticise him for early experimentation as the side he inherited from Charlton was a shambles. He had to try rebuild. Mick did his best and it wasn't enough. There is certainly no need for the level of hate some people seem to have for him.
Still waiting for a RMK free thread. It's like searching for foot.ie's Holy Grail!

NeilMcD

19/05/2004, 9:45 AM

I dont have any hate for Mc Carthy and I dont think any hate was shown in my posts i criticised him from a professional point of view. I agree it was not his fault he was given the job but then again look at David O Leary, he ruled himself out the last time as he said that the Ireland job should be the pinnacle of your career and somethign you should do when you have experience. I think Mc Carthy may have been wiser to adopt this approach. Kinnear was the man with experience at the time and he had Wimbledon in the top six of the Premier League, he wanted the job but could not do an interview while been manger of another club. I agree he was left a shambles by Charlton and his disregard for the Youth. Another thing that seems to be lacking for a lot of posts his that I think Mc Carthy did a lot of things right while Ireland manager but fundamentaly he was not up to the job of been a total success. Too many people stay in their respective positions i.e. either Roy Keane was righ or Mc Carthy was right and there were no grey areas. Davros is a prime example of this, his nonsensical posts about RMK are laughable.. YOu dont have to like Keane but you cannot fail to admit that he was a great player whilst playing for Ireland. The same as i would say that Mc Carthy really played well for Ireland during the 1990 world cup and he brought on the youngster with Ireland very well and got us playing some great football. People should get out of their "camps" and have a rational view of these things. But again i re-iterate my criticisms of Mc Carthy have nothing to do with Roy keane and where there long befor Saipan and all of them are professional and not personal.

NeilMcD

19/05/2004, 9:54 AM

Well sorry you obviously know my viewpoint better than i do and of course you are fight that all my views are influenced by keane despite the fact , that the facts point out thtat this is not the case. THis is a post about the Ireland manager and how he is not up to the job of managing either a Premiership team or a top internatinoal side either. I held these views before Saipan so i am hardly goign to change them after just cause people like to shake shamrocks and bananas in the phoenix park and celebrate failure. Get a Grip conor you are the one who brings Keane into this post no me or others. Here is a tip dont try to second guess people opinion on a forum as you dont knwo the people you are just presuming that we are all typical keane lovers but i for one is not and he has many flaws as i have said before.

Bowsy

19/05/2004, 9:55 AM

I dont have any hate for Mc Carthy and I dont think any hate was shown in my posts

Wasn't referring to you Neil but there are many post that are very harsh on Mick. It all comes down to the RMK Saipan yawn-fest again as always. People easily forget the side McCarthy inherited and how far he came. A little bit too naive a manager but he did a good job overall for my money. Also people who believe it's solely McCarthy's we didn't win the last world cup need to get a grip.

NeilMcD

19/05/2004, 10:01 AM

Again my views on Mc Carthy have nothing to do with Saipan as I had formed this view long before that incident. It is possible to have a view on Mc Carthy before Saipand happend it is not year zero in relatio to Irish Football.

NeilMcD

19/05/2004, 10:08 AM

Probably to do with the age profile of people who used Internet Fans Forums, we are hardly going to have a big debate here about Eoin Hand and Liam Tuohy and Johhny Giles. It is the most recent manager we have had and are views are formed by first hand experience of seeing his teams play. I can only speak for myself in that i commented on this board as the playoffs confirmed what i have said for years, and even when lots of people said oh look at Mc Carthy he is diong a great job at Sunderland and i said mark my word this will end in glorious failure and what do we get!!!! glorious failure.

finlma

19/05/2004, 10:13 AM

Neil seems to be talking sense but I really don't know what you get at in your posts Conor, you seem to have a strange view of things.
I believe that McCarthy is an over-rated manager and that has nothing to do with your rant about Saipan. Who cares how many pages this is running to, you don't have to read it.

only1kilbane

19/05/2004, 10:16 AM

NeilMcD

19/05/2004, 10:34 AM

I think this thread should have been called " How good it was to laugh at Mick and Mc Ateer " not from the roy fan club obviously.

Get over your hatred kids . Mick did well for us brought a lot of kids through. Obviously he made mistakes so does Brian Kerr but pre wc according to most he was doing well. Obviously the keane incident then seems to make people think they have to love one hate the other and mc ateer was thrown into this as well.

get over it kids !

NO hatred from me, and i have not laughed at Mc Carthy once, I just think as a sunderland fan you should get used to glorious failures as Mc Carthy will be the expert in them, i am not getting any pleasure from this but that is what is going to happen. In relatio to his win/loss ratio i think that is fair that he does have a decent record there, and my view is that Mc Carthy does have a decent record and is a decent manager, But when it really boils down to it at the pressure moments when the top managers shine he is left wanting. His in game management is terrible and probably his achilles heel. Again Davros gives us an intellectual post on why he does not like Roy keane, i dont know how i can compete with that intellect.

NeilMcD

19/05/2004, 10:44 AM

what has that got to do wiht anything, who i support is irrelevant. if you cannot come up with a decent argument and back it up wth facts but so far your arguments seem to be

RMK is a ****** end of story

and I am a spurs fan,

i am suprised you have not been asked on to newsnight with debating skills like that

only1kilbane

19/05/2004, 10:48 AM

Fair enough comment Neal at least you realise Mc Carthy is a decent manager. Im not saying hes the greatest manager sunderland or Ireland have had but if someone had said to me we would have done as well as we did I would have been delighted. With a couple of decent additions this summer prob on frees we can make a proper go for automatic promotion next season.

NeilMcD

19/05/2004, 10:50 AM

Sorry to burst your bubble but i reckon you are destined to lose on a penatly shoot out but this time in the play off final having led 2-0 nill up with 10 minutes to go againsts ten men when mick decides to take off Kevin Kyle and Clinton Morrisson and bring on a debutant and another defender.

tiktok

19/05/2004, 10:57 AM

I'm a fan of Roy Keane and have come out in his favour on here repeatedly. While I think McCarthy's man management left him down in Saipan I do think overall he did a good job with the Irish team.

He got us playing a brand of football that was far superior to anything we played under charlton (who didn't leave Mick much to work with to be fair) McCarthy did bring a lot of good young players through.

People will always point to certain games to show he was a good (1-0 at home to Holland, 2-0 at home to Croatia) or bad (losing a two goal lead away to Holland, the odd late equaliser) manager. Fact is, he was a decent manager (who maybe lacked a bit tactically) and a pretty amiable fella.

I certainly don't hate the man, and wish him well for the future. in fact I was hoping Sunderland would come up if only because their Irish contingent (which is considerable) would have been playing at a higher level of football, which could only benefit the current national side.

Not God, Not Satan, just Mick McCarthy.

NeilMcD

19/05/2004, 10:59 AM

[QUOTE=davros]At last we agree....the sooner he retires,the better for Irish int.footy.....RMK has lost it so much these days......not even good enough for Sp*rs :p[/QUOTE

Sorry i was quoting you there, and i know spurs are terrible see i am one of these supporters that does not have blind faith in my team and i can admit when they are crap and when they are good and i will not argue in their favour just cause i support team. I like to deal with reality and not get lost in emotional nonsense and argue with my heart.

finlma

19/05/2004, 11:09 AM

At last we agree....the sooner he retires,the better for Irish int.footy.....RMK has lost it so much these days......not even good enough for Sp*rs :p

Your comments are about as useful as a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

Slash/ED

19/05/2004, 12:04 PM

It suits people to pretend that their analysis of McCarthy's weaknesses is something objective, but reality dictates that it will always be viewed through where people stand on Roy Keane.

complete and utter ********. I don't and never did rate McCarthy as a manager and was delighted when he left the Irish job, and I can't stand Keane as a person.

lopez

19/05/2004, 12:37 PM

Conor - I hated McCarthy long before Saipan. I started hating him as a player. He summed up all that was rotten about the Charlton era. When he got the manager's job I seriously looked into changing nationality.My nomination for the tosspot statement of the thread. :rolleyes:

Summed up all that was rotten about the Charlton era? Bet you preferred the Hand era with the poor organisation that made Saipan look like something you find at the Australian Academy for sports; those moral victories against Israel (3-0); the fact that he was so lost in the post his leading players effectively ruled the changing room and the press conference; or that he would place McCarthy in a race with a journalist to prove a point. Sounds to me like it was the 'rotten Charlton era' that got you interested in the Irish team in the first place, because if you were around before, and gone to the odd game, you would have been struck in the face that Micky Mouse would be an improvement as manager. But hey, isn't the real reason why Hand is a better manager than McCarthy is because he is one of your own, true?

WeAreRovers

19/05/2004, 1:15 PM

Sounds to me like it was the 'rotten Charlton era' that got you interested in the Irish team in the first place, because if you were around before, and gone to the odd game, you would have been struck in the face that Micky Mouse would be an improvement as manager. But hey, isn't the real reason why Hand is a better manager than McCarthy is because he is one of your own, true?

I was around before the Hand period. He was a clueless **** but his team tried to play football and he didn't shaft our greatest ever player unlike Charlton.

The last game I went to was the qualifier in Malta in 89. I went to an under 19 tournament in Holland with Rovers in 1990 rather than subject myself to to the muppets who'd latched onto Ireland (ie in Malta) and the dour anti-football of Charlton. How many games did we win in Italy? How many goals did we score?

To suggest that I base my opinion of Irish managers on their nationality is ridiculous and cheap (although it probably says a lot about your hang-ups re nationality).

If you want to talk Ireland managers then lets start with Liam Tuohy. Shafted by the FAI and then by Charlton - setting back our underage setup by years. Just ask Brian Kerr.

The Charlton/McCarthy era is and was nothing to be proud of. The damage they did is only now being fixed by Kerr. Maurice Setters alone did more damage than decades of FAI mismanagment.

KOH

lopez

19/05/2004, 1:50 PM

I was around before the Hand period...Apologies, I thought that the fact that you mention McCarthy and his 'mentor' Charlton as Ireland's worst two managers suggested to me two things: You don't like the English (having an English accent counts as a catch all here) or that you're a Johnny-come-lately. Sadly nothing you say dispels the first assumption, especially the fact that you preferred to watch a Shamrock Rovers u19 tournament than your country - or is it ex-country, I've forgotten - in the World's greatest tournament. Now a 'real' Irishman is back it sounds like things are different.

Hand tried great football?! :rolleyes: . What great football. Can't remember any great football under Hand except his first campaign that was still endowed with the brilliant (considering what he had) but underrated management of Johnny Giles - a worthy candidate for Irish player of the century no matter what Keane fans may say - and I witnessed most of it. So we tried winning matches. It might not have been pretty but if I wanted pretty football played by the some of the best players in Europe I'd do what you thought about doing and change my nationality. As for Hand not shafting his players. No, there was never any chance of that was there?

And McCarthy followed the big Geordie's lead too? Well here I'm a bit confused as to your statement. But then if you haven't watched Ireland play since 1989, what opinion can you give about the difference - as stated by many here - in the attractiveness between McCarthy's game and Charlton's, seeing that is all that concerns you.

As for hang-ups over nationality, you're on the ball here pal. I will dispute any thinly disguised attack on this board about players or fans of Ireland who were born elsewhere. Most people don't have the decency to reply, but at least you have. Still, your lack of any objectivity, coupled with your laughable, brief desire to renounce your nationality because of McCarthy's appointment suggests this is a classic example of what I'm talking about. McCarthy was no Ernst Happel or Helenio Herrera. But he was the best available to a third rate football association paying a third rate wage in a country with a third rate interest in the domestic game. The fact he got us - well maybe not you - to a world cup (if it was players that get us to World Cups then why is it the manager that gets the sack?) is a minor miracle.

Pat O' Banton

19/05/2004, 1:51 PM

I was around before the Hand period. He was a clueless **** but his team tried to play football and he didn't shaft our greatest ever player unlike Charlton.

The last game I went to was the qualifier in Malta in 89. I went to an under 19 tournament in Holland with Rovers in 1990 rather than subject myself to to the muppets who'd latched onto Ireland (ie in Malta) and the dour anti-football of Charlton. How many games did we win in Italy? How many goals did we score?

To suggest that I base my opinion of Irish managers on their nationality is ridiculous and cheap (although it probably says a lot about your hang-ups re nationality).

If you want to talk Ireland managers then lets start with Liam Tuohy. Shafted by the FAI and then by Charlton - setting back our underage setup by years. Just ask Brian Kerr.

The Charlton/McCarthy era is and was nothing to be proud of. The damage they did is only now being fixed by Kerr. Maurice Setters alone did more damage than decades of FAI mismanagment.

KOH

Oh yes the absolute classic. So what you wanted Ireland to go back to 4-1 home tankings by Norway just to keep people out of the Stadiums?

We won as many games in Italy in 1990 as World Cups that we'd qualified before that. Can you tell me what the answer to this riddle is?

Where exactly were the Irish team going before Charlton took over and where did he get us to. Yeah sure we'd all like to have watched Ireland play one touch football winning every game by five goals but it wasn't happening and in truth any sort of success was getting further and further away.

Still never mind I'm sure one day we can back to the moral purity of getting hammered in front of empty stands maybe that will entice you back to watch.

I'm no fan of Charlton the man but to say the man who guided us to three major finals left us nothing to be proud of defies lodgic.

NeilMcD

19/05/2004, 2:07 PM

I tink the answer is somewhere in the middle, i think charlton orgainsed the team so that they were more efficient than before. But the job of a manager is to get the best out of the resources he has. I would argue that Charlton got 90% per cent out of the players but the ability to beat lesser teams somtimes let us down, we were well capable of drawing with HOlland, England Romania but when it came to beating Egypt or Lichtenstein we somtimes struggled. That was mainly due to the style of play which did not change whether we were playing Italy or Egypt, it still went long. Charltonw was also blessed with the finest talents Irish football had seen

Lets list the name of the players he had available in 87/88

Bonner / Mc Donagh

Morris/Hughton/Langan

McCarthy
Moran
Mc Grath
O Leary
Lawrenson

Beglin/Hughton

Brady
Whelan
Houghton
Sheedy
Galvin

Aldridge
Stapleton
Quinn
Cascarino

and there are probably more , but that is some squad of players and i would argue that we had a better team than england in 88. We probably should have expected more of ourselves, but then again because we had not qualified for a tournament before we had low self esteem which is understanable. I think it is a fact that Charlton did agood job for the present of irish football during his time. But he is not beyond criticism. Some times comments in here are over the top in both direction, wheither it be Mc Carthy is a ********, Keane is a Brat or a ****** or Charlton did nothing for irish football. Some sort of composure and level headedness is called for in my opinion

WeAreRovers

19/05/2004, 3:04 PM

Sadly nothing you say dispels the first assumption, especially the fact that you preferred to watch a Shamrock Rovers u19 tournament than your country - or is it ex-country, I've forgotten - in the World's greatest tournament. Now a 'real' Irishman is back it sounds like things are different.

I've always put club before country like the majority of Man Utd and Liverpool fans with England, Juve, Milan, Inter and Roma fans with Italy. (Remember the Verona fan in A Season With Verona who said he always went fishing when Italy were playing?)

As a mate of mine once said - I'd rather see Rovers win a corner kick than Ireland win the World Cup. This is a perfectly normal attitude the world over.

Maybe you're confusing this attitude with an anti-Englishness. Believe me, Kerr or McCarthy, I still won't be following Ireland.

In Scum Airways, the book about the black market that has grown up around Man Utd and other English clubs in Europe, one of United's hardcore is quoted as saying "the true football fan hates his own club's board first and his international team second" Don't expect you to agree but it made me smile.

KOH

Bowsy

19/05/2004, 3:37 PM

I've always put club before country like the majority of Man Utd and Liverpool fans with England, Juve, Milan, Inter and Roma fans with Italy. (Remember the Verona fan in A Season With Verona who said he always went fishing when Italy were playing?)

This attitude I can understand in Italy due their very socially divided history but in Ireland I find this bizarre. I would support Ireland play tiddly winks. National pride is the very foundation of our character as a people. If there are any Irish supporters who put Man U ahead of the national team I would be not shocked but appalled. Also not to support your country because of the manager is a ridiculous notion. Unless the FAI announce the next Ireland manager to be a recently defrosted from cryogenic stasis Adolf Hitler, how any Irishman could take this attitude is beyond me.

Macy

19/05/2004, 3:45 PM

Man Yoo fans famously sing Argentina at games, though given what happened in the '86 and '98 WCs and the sending off of Beckham that was one a lot of people find hard to get their heads around.
It was because of the media assassination of Beckham after the sending off, and the reaction of England supporters to him that United started the Argentina songs. The River Plate Reds Argentina flag went down particularly well at Upton Park :) . It's mainly carried on because of the reaction of certain groups of fans - Chelsea, Leeds and West Ham spring particularly to mind, being such big In-ger-land fans that they are.... It continues to wind them up, and so the anti-england songs continue.

Anyway, club before country every time. The majority of those that go the other way don't tend to follow clubs that closely* in my experience.

* as in not going to matches week in, week out, home and away.

Plastic Paddy

19/05/2004, 3:53 PM

Anyway, club before country every time. The majority of those that go the other way don't tend to follow clubs that closely* in my experience.

* as in not going to matches week in, week out, home and away.

I hate to be the fly in the ointment here Macy, but I don't agree. Every spare penny I have goes to pay for me watching Celtic. Granted, that's not every week, but it was as near as dammit (thankyou, oh thankyou, LT privilege pass) when I was a student and before I met the missus and settled down a bit. I'm rabid about my club, but even so, I put my country first. But maybe that's a 2G thing.

The phenomenon is slightly different with our Anglo cousins. The flags they bring with them to matches are usually adorned with the names of smaller clubs - the Darlingtons, Hartlepools and Telfords are represented far more frequently than the EPL sides. Why? I dunno. Just an observation, like...

:D PP

Macy

19/05/2004, 4:01 PM

But maybe that's a 2G thing.
Don't think so :D

I hate to be the fly in the ointment here Macy, but I don't agree. Every spare penny I have goes to pay for me watching Celtic. Granted, that's not every week, but it was as near as dammit (thankyou, oh thankyou, LT privilege pass) when I was a student and before I met the missus and settled down a bit. I'm rabid about my club, but even so, I put my country first.
Firstly I did say the majority not everyone who puts country before club, secondly (and with respect and without casting aspersions at all) going as many Celtic games as you can afford isn't the same as going week in, week out. You're proving what I said in a way.

Plastic Paddy

19/05/2004, 4:06 PM

Firstly I did say the majority not everyone who puts country before club, secondly (and with respect and without casting aspersions at all) going as many Celtic games as you can afford isn't the same as going week in, week out. You're proving what I said in a way.

Like I said, I used to travel up as a student from Birmingham almost week-in week-out in the early and mid-1990s. Usually made about 35 games a season. Right in the middle of Rankgers' 9IAR, so that wasn't much fun, let me tell you. :( (Can't do it now; the older you get, the more other commitments get in the way.) And even in the midst of all that football and travelling up and down the West Coast main line, I'd drop the lot to go and see Ireland.

:D PP

Macy

19/05/2004, 4:10 PM

I'll still refer you back to the majority comment though :D

Anyway, an ice cold pint calls...

Plastic Paddy

19/05/2004, 4:16 PM

I'll still refer you back to the majority comment though :D

Anyway, an ice cold pint calls...

Fair 'nuff. Have one for me. :)

:D PP

lopez

19/05/2004, 4:46 PM

Maybe you're confusing this attitude with an anti-Englishness. Believe me, Kerr or McCarthy, I still won't be following Ireland.So why the concern?

In Scum Airways, the book about the black market that has grown up around Man Utd and other English clubs in Europe, one of United's hardcore is quoted as saying "the true football fan hates his own club's board first and his international team second" Don't expect you to agree but it made me smile.Right about the last bit but think the quote about hating his national team second is nothing but cojones. I've yet to know anyone like that although hating rivals players is another thing (hence Beckham in 1998 and 2000) and putting club before country is also common. Living here, come this summer, the sight of loads of football fans either not supporting England or supporting someone else is a dream I'd wish would come through. I'll let you know if it does.
Anyway, club before country every time. The majority of those that go the other way don't tend to follow clubs that closely* in my experience.

* as in not going to matches week in, week out, home and away.Fair comment here, certainly in my case. For me, following a big English club would be like following England. I've watched Deportivo - my mother's home town team - a few times in Europe but with me I've a secondary interest in club football compared with the national team.

pineapple stu

19/05/2004, 5:29 PM

Not going to get dragged into the pro-Mick anti-Mick debate again (think my views are well enough known here by now anyway), but am I alone in finding it really sad that people are watching Sunderland, hoping they'll fail just so they can hop on the ranty bandwagon again? Have yez really nothing better to do?! Neil McD made about five or six posts at the start of this thread before it finally diverted from being about the match in question into a rant - what are yez like?!

WeAreRovers

19/05/2004, 6:35 PM

Anyway, club before country every time. The majority of those that go the other way don't tend to follow clubs that closely* in my experience.

* as in not going to matches week in, week out, home and away.

Nail, head etc.

I watched Rovers over 50 times last season in Ireland and Europe, I also saw football in England, Scotland and Wales but If Ireland were playing in the back garden I'd close the curtains.

As for national pride, does that include shouting for Chris Doran? And where does that leave me following the cricket team?

And Plastic Paddy, the simple reason that you see Darlington, Rochdale etc flags at England games is it's their only chance of going to see "their" team in Europe. That's not a consideration for Utd of Liverpool fans who spend half their lives on the continent.

Ask any Rovers fan who went to Japan for the WC and was in Poland for the InterToto win over Odra which meant more and you know what answer you'll get.

KOH

Plastic Paddy

19/05/2004, 6:48 PM

And Plastic Paddy, the simple reason that you see Darlington, Rochdale etc flags at England games is it's their only chance of going to see "their" team in Europe. That's not a consideration for Utd of Liverpool fans who spend half their lives on the continent.

I don't doubt it for a second, mate. I guess you've also to add in the fact that a proportion of the regulars at both OT and Anfield (and plenty of each club's followers) aren't in any case English.

Ask any Rovers fan who went to Japan for the WC and was in Poland for the InterToto win over Odra which meant more and you know what answer you'll get.

Well, I'm a little sceptical about your view here. I'm sure the majority would say that each trip meant different things rather than place them in direct comparison. I know that what I take from my club football and watching my country are different things.

:) PP

Beavis

19/05/2004, 7:17 PM

In relatio to his win/loss ratio i think that is fair that he does have a decent record there, and my view is that Mc Carthy does have a decent record and is a decent manager, But when it really boils down to it at the pressure moments when the top managers shine he is left wanting.
Pressure moments,wouldN'T the following fall into that category?...

Iran away in front of 70,000 crazy Arabs(pressure??!!!???)and we didn't concede.......Keane brigade circling in Japan,didn't crumble against Cameroon or Germany despite bad start to both games...etc etc
You can easily pick and choose events in this mega saga to suit your side. It's just as easy to give examples of games where we didn't concede in the latter stages.The reason you'd automatically think of the when Mick failed as opposed to succeded simply boils down to your opinion in the Keane/Mick affair.As does everyones posts on this thread & any related subjects.No one has given sufficient reason why they disliked him pre Keane/Mick affair because lets face it yous didn't....

tiktok

19/05/2004, 7:23 PM

Iran away in front of 70,000 crazy Arabs(pressure??!!!???)and we didn't concede....

err...we did. we lost that game. :confused:

But i take your point, you can use different games to 'prove' different arguments.

Slash/ED

19/05/2004, 7:43 PM

Beavis

19/05/2004, 10:59 PM

Good point, you clearly know my opinions on McCarthy more than I do :rolleyes:

As I've said, I hate Keane and I don't rate McCarthy, so you're talking nonsense.
Find it hard to believe,have never come across someone who takes neither side.
But if it's the case you'll agree your a rarity among footballing circles. :ball:

err...we did. we lost that game
Alright we did concede but it hardly mattered at that stage.Point is we didn't crack despite having that tactical loon/temperementally fragile/all round cr@p(with a good record mind) manager McCarthy at the helm :rolleyes: ;)

NeilMcD

20/05/2004, 9:36 AM

Pressure moments,wouldN'T the following fall into that category?...

Iran away in front of 70,000 crazy Arabs(pressure??!!!???)and we didn't concede.......Keane brigade circling in Japan,didn't crumble against Cameroon or Germany despite bad start to both games...etc etc
You can easily pick and choose events in this mega saga to suit your side. It's just as easy to give examples of games where we didn't concede in the latter stages.The reason you'd automatically think of the when Mick failed as opposed to succeded simply boils down to your opinion in the Keane/Mick affair.As does everyones posts on this thread & any related subjects.No one has given sufficient reason why they disliked him pre Keane/Mick affair because lets face it yous didn't....

So let me see Beavis you have already been proven that two points in this post are facturally wrong, One, we did concede in Irian. and two there are people out there that were highly critical of Mc Carthy before Saipan. Maybe you did not listen to them but they existed I was one . Slashed as already said that he hates keane and does not rate mc Carthy as a manager. YOur last comment that no one has given sufficient reason as to why they disliked Mic pre the Saipan affair. Now I dont know if you are getting disliked or did not rate mixed up. I have consistantly said on the thread that Mick Mc Carthy is a probably a nice man, but to be honest i am of the view that i would rather 11 great players that are ******** that 11 average players that are lovely guys./ If you read back on the thread you will see about 8 points of why I dont rate Mc Carthy as a top manager. That is sufficient reason. I am not asking you to agree that Mc Carthy is not a great manager but dont dare to tell me or us that we only formed our opinions after Saipan when you dont know me or any of us here who are critical of Mc Carthy. I woudl not dare to second guess when you formed your views on Mc Carthy so I dont expect you to do the same with me

NeilMcD

20/05/2004, 10:41 AM

To be honest the dullest thing about it , is your posts as they are not well thought out opinions which are backed up with fact. They seemed to be tabloid rants such as the "the Brat is a scumbag or he is wnker or something challenging like that.

You will probably quote me and now say ahh at least we agree on something. To be honest this thread has nothing to do with Roy Keane at all and it seems to me that the only people who think it has anything to do with Roy Keane are the people how despise him. It started about the play offs and I just called into question Mc Carthys expertise at the highest level.. Nothing to do with Roy Keane in any way but i guess some people just cant see beyone that or dont want to. It suits the people how are anti Keane to reduce it to all about the Saipan incident when the criticisms of Mc Carthy where voiced long before that by me and others i am sure and by Johnny Giles and others in the media.

NeilMcD

20/05/2004, 10:54 AM

Yes,but the pro-Brat/anti MMcC.,with certain exceptions(Who despise both!)basically sing from the same songsheet!
If your constituency don't want RMK to be continually slagged(rightly to the grave,IMO!)....Leave big MMcC alone!

I have no problem you criticising Roy Keane, I could not give a toss. In addition there is a big difference between you saying RMK is a wanter or a brat or whatever and me and others analysing Mick Mc Carthy as a manager from a footballing point of view, One is personal the other is what is called analysing the game of football in an intelligent manner. I have no gripe with Mick Mc Carthy but i am entitled as a football supporter to analyse his management skills and I have never had a go at him or his personality on this forum. Your arguments against Keane seem to be
he is a brat
He is a ******
he is a judas

Not very intelligent analysis of a complex situation in my opinion.

NeilMcD

20/05/2004, 11:02 AM

Well i think you are wrong there cause a lot of extinguished journalists that have met him i.e

David Walsh
Paul Kimmage
Tom Humphries
Sean O Hagan

have all said that one thing that strikes them about Keane is his intelligence and his humility and his politeness. So your rants against hime and then saying that the only reason you have cave man jibes against him are because he is not intelligent is rubbish.

Macy

20/05/2004, 11:18 AM

Well he managed to prove himself highly ignorant to an entire nation....... :mad:
No part of an entire nation. Whatever about you're own personal opinions, the fact that this debate keeps going around proves that the entire nation didn't and don't think he was ignorant to them.

NeilMcD

20/05/2004, 11:20 AM

Fair enought that is your view, but some disagree but i dont think we shoudl go down that road as peoles views are set in stone on this issue. I cant belive you have turned this thread about Roy keane. The point is mine and others views on Mick Mc Carthy are from a professional and footballing point of view whereas your views on Keane are entirely personal and filled with venom.

NeilMcD

20/05/2004, 11:27 AM

That's because he always was & always will be a C*NT!(His Munich/Corcaigh connections dont help.......sympathise for the decent minority from both places.....)

Shame,Wise/Muscat not about tomorrow,to finish his career off for good!

Once again you show yoruself to be a well balanced intelligent individual who is capable of interesting conversation and debates on footballing mattes

NOT.

I am sure Roy keane is worrying about you too.

NeilMcD

20/05/2004, 12:01 PM

To be honest I am not even going to argue as you obviously dont like him and thats fair enough and you two seem to be pre-occupied with personalties where i like to look at the footballing aspects and keep it on football terms rather then look at someones personality. I was prepared to say Mick is a nice man and stick to footballing issues but you cant do that with Roy Keane so you have to have a go at his personality which is fair enough but it does weaken the argument.

NeilMcD

20/05/2004, 12:19 PM

Sorry if you read through the posts again you will see i was arguing on the baisis of football and Davros said that Keane was not intelligent and in my response to that i said that someon journalist has another opinion to that just to balance it up. I did not argue that he was polite etc. I have kept all my posts about Mc Carthy on football issues but yourself and Davros do not. You are fascinated by Keane, I have interest in debating Roy keane here, and i was sticking to post about Mc Carthys ability as a manager. I responed to a comment by Davros that Keane was not intelligent and I just said that there are other views out there and listed well respected journalists that held this view. So if we can can we stick to football.

NeilMcD

20/05/2004, 12:22 PM

So saying that Keane is intelligent, humble and polite is not an opinion about personality? Or are you just contradicting yourself.

What has someones politeness, intelligence and humility have to do with football. I think the point you're making is that YOU are entitled to comment on personalities but we're not!!

What have his being nice or not got to do with football? I think you've contradicted yourself within the space of a few words there. Me? I think Keane was a great footballer...

Conor my point is that i have no problem with Mc Carthys personality and have consistantly said that on this and i have argued against his abilties to manage at the top level but for some reason yourself and Davros want to bring Roy Keane into this, i have no interest in doing so.

NeilMcD

20/05/2004, 12:24 PM

Just an idle point,have you ever heard of a paragraph......would make posts easier to read!

Sorry is it getting a little too complex for you in here ok i will bring things down to your level now

****, ******, **** artist, brat, ***** ******, hun, fenian, orange *******, more ranting ranting, hate, puke,

there you should feel at home understanding that

Plastic Paddy

20/05/2004, 12:42 PM

I never laughed so much as I did when Blunderland lost the shoot out. Kharma is a wonderful thing eh Mick....;)

Bitterness is a destructive thing, eh Silvio. Time to move on...? ;)

Sorry is it getting a little too complex for you in here ok i will bring things down to your level now

****, ******, **** artist, brat, ***** ******, hun, fenian, orange *******, more ranting ranting, hate, puke

You forgot "planters", "tans", "O6", "Br*ts", Neil. Clean your glasses. :)

:D PP