The "Bailout" That Is In Actual Fact A High-Interest Loan, Not Free Money.

[Reality Bites]

Grape-vine stuff, but i have heard rumours about the content of G20 meeting between the germans french, italians and brits relating to a bail-out, other forums are starting to discuss this..If true looks like the guys in the white coats are on the way, the Dept of Finance are paving the way for the IMF /EU structural fund to starting running the show...if true a damning indictment of the failure of our government and institutions in general.

[culloty82]

BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11743229) saying not until 2013 at any rate.

[Reality Bites]

BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11743229) saying not until 2013 at any rate.

No it doesn't - 2013 relates to Bondholders not the Irish debt crisis..

[OneRedArmy]

Bailout to me conveys the image of getting something for nothing.

I'd say we'll pay a heavy price for any support.

Unfortunately beggars can't be choosers, and as you say, its a damning indictment that we let ourselves get into this position.

[Dodge]

Grape-vine stuff, but i have heard rumours about the content of G20 meeting between the germans french, italians and brits relating to a bail-out, other forums are starting to discuss this..If true looks like the guys in the white coats are on the way, the Dept of Finance are paving the way for the IMF /EU structural fund to starting running the show...if true a damning indictment of the failure of our government and institutions in general.

There was an ecofin meeting last night so there definitely wasn't a g20 meeting at the sme time

[BonnieShels]

Bailout to me conveys the image of getting something for nothing.

I'd say we'll pay a heavy price for any support.

Unfortunately beggars can't be choosers, and as you say, its a damning indictment that we let ourselves get into this position.

Depends on who the "we" are in that statement. Every single thing this shambles of a government has done hasn't worked.

Listening to Lenihan on the News at One and he was his usually happy-go-lucky self. Apparently we can't keep looking to the past and we must show confidence to the world by passing the budget.

[passinginterest]

I really don't understand how the Government can continue trying to force through this 4 or 5 year plan budget when they clearly no longer have a mandate and even they must realise there is no chance they will be in power to implement it.

It's so irrespossible it must be breaking some sort of wreckless endangerment law. They should have stepped aside, held a general election and allowed the newly elected Government put together a budget that can be implemented.

[Macy]

Depends on who the "we" are in that statement. Every single thing this shambles of a government has done hasn't worked.

Listening to Lenihan on the News at One and he was his usually happy-go-lucky self. Apparently we can't keep looking to the past and we must show confidence to the world by passing the budget.
I don't accept that.


It's so irrespossible it must be breaking some sort of wreckless endangerment law. They should have stepped aside, held a general election and allowed the newly elected Government put together a budget that can be implemented
The should be charged with treason. Constituency Interest - Party Interest - National Interest, in that order.

[BonnieShels]

But that's what happens in a regular democracy where the government is answerable to parliament. We can do jack-sh1t in this country unless cabinet say so. I've advocated a complete Dáil resignation of all opposition TDs at this stage. It's getting scary now. When you start to believe your own lies is one thing but when you start to change what others say and repeat it ad nauseam it becomes an almost unbelievable thing to listen to. I sat agog in the car at lunchtime and I will do the same thing listening to the last word later. A lot of us can't take it anymore and it must stop.


I don't accept that.


The should be charged with treason. Constituency Interest - Party Interest - National Interest, in that order.

What don't you accept?

You're completely right on your latter statement.

This is a letter from the Irish Times that has always haunted me when I talk to Fianna Fáil supporters and it's stands to reason that this is what goes on in their heads:

The Irish Times - Wednesday, January 23, 2008
The view from Fianna Fáil

Madam, - I don't often agree with Fintan O'Toole but he is dead right about Fianna Fail's twisted view of itself (Opinion, January 22nd).
I was once asked by a Fianna Fáil friend, an intelligent and thoughtful person, to join the party. I refused, on the grounds that Fianna Fáil cannot distinguish between the national interest and the Fianna Fáil interest.
"But surely," he said, genuinely and seriously, "they're the same thing." -
Yours, etc,
JOM, Stillorgan, Co Dublin.

[culloty82]

Forget Six One, looks like the bailout is on after all.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11750676

[ArdeeBhoy]

Sh*t, might be an understatement.

[mypost]

I really don't understand how the Government can continue trying to force through this 4 or 5 year plan budget when they clearly no longer have a mandate and even they must realise there is no chance they will be in power to implement it.

It's so irrespossible it must be breaking some sort of wreckless endangerment law. They should have stepped aside, held a general election.

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas when it comes to the Dail, and power is very difficult to give up, politics or not.

The 4-year plan is optics for Brussels. It doesn't matter that FF won't implement it, and they don't care who does, as long as it is.

[dahamsta]

Better the EU than the IMF. Not a lot better though.

[BonnieShels]

First things first... revolution then an eu bailout

[BonnieShels]

So after Dermo and Batt categorically denying that there were talks the Dept of Finance has announced that there are indeed talks.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1115/economy.html

FFS!

[OneRedArmy]

So after Dermo and Batt categorically denying that there were talks the Dept of Finance has announced that there are indeed talks.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1115/economy.html

FFS!The only quotes I read were categorical in stating explicitly that we weren't requesting assistance at this stage. Not hard to read between the lines that the EU called the meeting.

Stupid, but not surprising, if some FFers denied the meetings were taking place. A lot of ostrich behaviour going on.

[pineapple stu]

It's like the country's being run by a crowd of League of Ireland fans.

[BonnieShels]

It's like the country's being run by a crowd of League of Ireland fans.

Nope. It's like the country is being run by a crowd of League of Ireland clubs.

[Spudulika]

No, worse still, it's being run by the FAI! Now how scary is that....

[OneRedArmy]

No, worse still, it's being run by the FAI! Now how scary is that....

The FAI are just the sporting wing of FF. Plus ca change....

[bennocelt]

The FAI are just the sporting wing of FF. Plus ca change....

Wrong its the Gah, the FAI are just the poor relations, the wannabe FFs

[Macy]

Stupid, but not surprising, if some FFers denied the meetings were taking place. A lot of ostrich behaviour going on.
You have to listen to the BBC to find out whats happening in Ireland.

If it wasn't clear before, it is now a matter of when we get a bail out. Lenihan and Cowen are just desperately trying to delay until after first Donegal and then a general election so it doesn't happen on their watch. Party Interest now beats Eurozone interest too! Beggars belief that so many were fooled by Lenihan.

[Mr A]

This article seems to explain the situation pretty clearly. Effectively we have been getting bailed out via funding for our banks on a very large scale for some time now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2010/11/will_the_ecb_pull_the_plug_on.html

[Macy]

This article seems to explain the situation pretty clearly. Effectively we have been getting bailed out via funding for our banks on a very large scale for some time now.
It all comes back to the bank bailout. FF and the Greens, and various right wing commentators like to make it about the deficit, but it's all about the banks. FFS even the increase in the correction from 7.5bn to 15bn is mainly interest for the bank bailout (6 bn is interest payments). Cheapest bank bailout in the world, ever.

[peadar1987]

Wrong its the Gah, the FAI are just the poor relations, the wannabe FFs


Fine Gael?

[culloty82]

The Guardian site's now saying that the EU ministers will hold a press conference at 7, but since Lenihan only arrived at 5.25, it could well be delayed.

[shakermaker1982]

Could Ireland threaten to pull out of the Euro? Is there a mechanism to do so? Let's face it the country is ****** whatever it does but having control over interest rates and being able to manipulate its own currency to help with cost of exports/imports must be a consideration at this desperate stage? I know it would spook the rest of Europe but Ireland is on its last legs and I can see the EU making an example out of Ireland if it does continue to bail them out.

[jinxy lilywhite]

not really but we should do.
we cannot survive with a strong euro and need to leave so we can have fiscal independance and give ourselves a chance as you suggested.
Germanys fear though is that they need a strong euro and if we try to leave, the greeks, portugese, spanish and Italians will want to leave too.
they'll keep us in so the others won't be able to leave.

[Mr A]

If we leave wouldn't we face the same issue as Iceland when it's interest rates jumped up to like 18% or something?

Also.. our debts would still be in euro.

[jinxy lilywhite]

it probably would but staying in a strong euro is just as bad as 18% interest rates because we have to export our products to survive.
it is a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario and there is no quick fix solutions unfortuneately.

[Mr A]

But our exports are doing pretty well aren't they?

[jinxy lilywhite]

they are doing quite well but with a weakened currency we'd be doing better.
To be honest Mr. A, I would have limited knowledge of economics but in the past if we encountered a difficulty like this we'd devalue the £. This would make our exports more cheaper and more competitive while imports would become more expensive.
Germany is doing ok and wants the strong € because it has a mortal fear of inflation because of the 1920's and the effects that caused. In our situation we'd like a little bit of inflation to kick start the economy and confidence back to the consumer.

My statement here though is fully open to welcome corrections

[mypost]

We can't, and won't leave the Euro. Once you're in these agreements, you stay in. It's not an a la carte job.

Having our own currency means it becomes vulnerable to 'runs' by investors and speculators. We have some shelter from that within the Euro, and more countries are signing up to it each year. Without the Euro, we'd be where Iceland was in 2008. Hung, drawn, and quartered.

[OneRedArmy]

Could Ireland threaten to pull out of the Euro? Is there a mechanism to do so? Let's face it the country is ****** whatever it does but having control over interest rates and being able to manipulate its own currency to help with cost of exports/imports must be a consideration at this desperate stage? I know it would spook the rest of Europe but Ireland is on its last legs and I can see the EU making an example out of Ireland if it does continue to bail them out.
Our debts would still be denominated in Euro. So no matter how much we devalued the real cost of debt would remain the same. Having control of interest rates is feck all use when nobody will lend to you.

[John83]

Yeah, whatever about in general, now seems like a terrible time to consider that idea. Whatever currency we set up would promptly collapse.

[dahamsta]

We should've left the euro and left the banks to die when this whole thing kicked off. Two birds, one stone. We won't do any of that, of course, but at this stage I'd like to leave Europe and cut corporation tax to 10% or less for 10 years. I generally hate cutting taxes, but screw it, screw them.

[Macy]

We went from punt to euro, so no technical reason we couldn't go the other way.

Whether it would be good idea is a different matter - I wouldn't be at all convinced. Maybe the bubble could've been avoided to some degree with control of interest rates (no guarantee, given the way McCreevy/ Cowen didn't use the tools they did have to try and control it, so why would they have used interest rates?). Similarly, it's two years ago that we may have benefitted on the way down, but if Lenihan/ Cowen had still lumbered us with Anglo would it have made that much difference? Own currency or not, we'd still have needed capable "leaders", which we clearly don't have.

[bennocelt]

We can't, and won't leave the Euro. Once you're in these agreements, you stay in. It's not an a la carte job.

Having our own currency means it becomes vulnerable to 'runs' by investors and speculators. We have some shelter from that within the Euro, and more countries are signing up to it each year. Without the Euro, we'd be where Iceland was in 2008. Hung, drawn, and quartered.

And their economy is growing at the moment with lower inflation and unemployment that us, and no bank bailouts suffocating them too. Yeah we are the example to follow - not!

[OneRedArmy]

We should've left the euro and left the banks to die when this whole thing kicked off. Two birds, one stone. We won't do any of that, of course, but at this stage I'd like to leave Europe and cut corporation tax to 10% or less for 10 years. I generally hate cutting taxes, but screw it, screw them.
How would the country raise money in that case?


And their economy is growing at the moment with lower inflation and unemployment that us, and no bank bailouts suffocating them too. Yeah we are the example to follow - not!.....and a lot of fish.

[Spudulika]

Anybody see Newsnight tonight? I was stunned by the growing anti-Irish sentiment that has been building all day. Even when broadcasting outside the Queens gaff they were getting digs in on UTV, BBC etc. When the BBC journo shouted out after Lenihan "When will you end this chaos?" it looked like a cringeworthy paper thin imitation of Michael Moore. At least Michael Moore was being held back, Lenihan gave interviews to BBC, ITV, RTE etc just 3 metres away, yet the Newsnight crew wanted to make it a nasty slap at the man. The Chancellor claimed the UK need a strong Ireland for exports, that it's important to keep us alive, BBC are looking to stir the siht.

[bennocelt]

Also should see the press here as well. A lot of jokes going on about Ireland and its rightful place in the world at the moment. The likes of Richard Littlejohn are creaming their pants at the moment
Its our own fault though

[shakermaker1982]

Anybody see Newsnight tonight? I was stunned by the growing anti-Irish sentiment that has been building all day. Even when broadcasting outside the Queens gaff they were getting digs in on UTV, BBC etc. When the BBC journo shouted out after Lenihan "When will you end this chaos?" it looked like a cringeworthy paper thin imitation of Michael Moore. At least Michael Moore was being held back, Lenihan gave interviews to BBC, ITV, RTE etc just 3 metres away, yet the Newsnight crew wanted to make it a nasty slap at the man. The Chancellor claimed the UK need a strong Ireland for exports, that it's important to keep us alive, BBC are looking to stir the siht.

If you think the British media are being harsh then check out the German papers!

What do you expect though? Imagine if your next door neighbour had been throwing his cash around, buying fancy cars, building an extension + swimming pool, gloating about how good he had it and now all of a sudden you've got to dig into your pockets to help this chump out because he hasn't got a pot to **** in?

Where did all the money go when Ireland was booming?

Heads should roll. The people should be on the streets kicking off.

[mypost]

If you think the British media are being harsh then check out the German papers!

What do you expect though? Imagine if your next door neighbour had been throwing his cash around, buying fancy cars, building an extension + swimming pool, gloating about how good he had it and now all of a sudden you've got to dig into your pockets to help this chump out because he hasn't got a pot to **** in?

Where did all the money go when Ireland was booming?

Heads should roll.

Everyone is paying, the UK will be contributing 7 billion alone. Ireland's taxpayers have also paid, are, and will continue to pay for the recklessness of the wealthiest when the country had a few bob.

Nobody likes our situation, not even ourselves.

[hedderman]

Speaking of Newsnight last night, did anyone see Dick Roche make an absolute fool of himself? I think one comment was, regarding the Donegal bye-election, that people should vote for Fianna Fail to ensure "stability and growth." Mind boggling. Would be nice to see a bit of humility from our government at the moment.

[dantheman]

.....and a lot of fish.

My granny always said fish gave you brains!

[dahamsta]

How would the country raise money in that case?

Tax effectively. Most of the larger companies operating in Ireland, which is usually stated as the reason we have a low tax rate in the first place, pay a far lower effective rate than even 10%. Google pays an effective 2.4%. Higher earners in Ireland also pay far less than they should be because of tax avoidance schemes. Close those loopholes gradually over the next 10 years, use the earnings to promote indigenous business, then they can feck off.

EDIT: Of course this is an incredibly simplistic explanation, and idea for that matter. The original point stands though: we shouldn't have bailed out the banks, and we've gained all we can gain from Europe. (I don't consider a bailout from Europe a gain. We didn't need to be here.)

[awec]

As someone who hopes to seek employment in Ireland upon graduation, should I be worried? :(

[dahamsta]

That's a very open-ended question awec. When do you graduate, what are you studying?

[awec]

That's a very open-ended question awec. When do you graduate, what are you studying?

Computer Science, so the IT industry. Graduate this spring/summer. :)

[dahamsta]

Well, I guess that depends on your specialty, and how clever you are. Google are always looking for clever people, but you have to be /really/ clever.

It's tough out there for everyone though, I wouldn't hold my breath and I'd seriously be considering options at this point. No-one walks into a job right now.