For or Aganist Winter Football

[legendz]

Association football? My god.
The game of football is any of several similar team sports, of similar origins which involve, to varying degrees, kicking a ball with the foot in an attempt to score a goal. The most popular of these sports worldwide is association football, more commonly known as just "football" or "soccer". Unqualified, the word football applies to whichever form of football is the most popular in each particular part of the world, including American football, Australian rules football, Canadian football, Gaelic football, rugby league, rugby union and other related games. These variations are known as "codes."

I'd refer to both Gaelic Football and Association Football as Football but as above mentioned in wiki, disambiguation is needed! ;)

[northwestexile]

For me summer football has to stay because as A Face has said there has been no strong argument to return to winter football other than nostalgia. People talk about better results in Europe and better pitches but for me one big reason stands out to retain summer football and thats the road into Ballybofey. In the winter I hate driving that road and it's so much more appealing to drive to a game in the evening sunlight, watch a game and drive home rather than drive 3hours in the rain and dark and freeze my b@lls off in what can only be described as a hay shed (and thats an insult to farm buildings) for 90mins.
Also just take a look at the pitch in Bray last week for an example of what the pitches would look like.

[HulaHoop]

Results of thee poll seem pretty conclusive. Hopefully common sense prevails now from the FAI.

[Paddyfield]

Results of thee poll seem pretty conclusive. Hopefully common sense prevails now from the FAI.

So, it's a swift return to the winter season again.

[shantykelly]

voted summer, but that's only because I want my deckchair to have a good view for when the iceberg hits. Winter or summer isn't the issue, it's better facilities. As an engineer, of all the grounds I've been to so far (which isn't even half admittedly), I've yet to see one that to me is in a good condition, construction wise. The quality of the football is slowly but surely improving, on the whole the majority of clubs seem to be getting their **** in order, what the league needs now is a bit of decent leadership and a some long term planning for investment.

[legendz]

voted summer, but that's only because I want my deckchair to have a good view for when the iceberg hits. Winter or summer isn't the issue, it's better facilities. As an engineer, of all the grounds I've been to so far (which isn't even half admittedly), I've yet to see one that to me is in a good condition, construction wise. The quality of the football is slowly but surely improving, on the whole the majority of clubs seem to be getting their **** in order, what the league needs now is a bit of decent leadership and a some long term planning for investment.

Have you been to the Tallaght stadium?

[shantykelly]

no. i followed the construction pictures that were sometimes posted, and it looks like a good finished article. thats one ground out of how many? brandywell is a **** hole, finn park is a field with a shed, gortakeegan, terryland, all extremely basic. was impressed with wexfors's setup, but more from the potential the place had than from the actual facilities - basic, but a good start. better off-field management and better facilities are the main targets the league should be working towards. and a good concrete/mortar supplier in bray.

[peadar1987]

no. i followed the construction pictures that were sometimes posted, and it looks like a good finished article. thats one ground out of how many? brandywell is a **** hole, finn park is a field with a shed, gortakeegan, terryland, all extremely basic. was impressed with wexfors's setup, but more from the potential the place had than from the actual facilities - basic, but a good start. better off-field management and better facilities are the main targets the league should be working towards. and a good concrete/mortar supplier in bray.

Here, that dodgy wall has created more employment than any government ministry. 3 brickies, some stewards, 4 paramedics and a surgeon are all directly employed in wall-related activities.

[pineapple stu]

You forgot to say "Worth an estimated E2m to the local economy". Not quite FF material. Keep trying though.

[Charlie Darwin]

If I thought a move to winter football would be preceded by an upgrade in stadium facilities across the country... but we know that'd never happen. Winter football might work for the clubs/players but it's not fan-friendly at all.

[legendz]

no. i followed the construction pictures that were sometimes posted, and it looks like a good finished article. thats one ground out of how many? brandywell is a **** hole, finn park is a field with a shed, gortakeegan, terryland, all extremely basic. was impressed with wexfors's setup, but more from the potential the place had than from the actual facilities - basic, but a good start. better off-field management and better facilities are the main targets the league should be working towards. and a good concrete/mortar supplier in bray.

The league has a few main tartgets. Regards facilities, you're right, it is something they have to look at. The Tallaght stadium is a good model, though hopefully all clubs looking to build will have their own unique style. Stands should be built with at least about 2500-3000 covered seats and similar-ish facilities that would be found lower tier Croke Park, Aviva or in Thomond. Not likely to happen soon though.

[BonnieShels]

But let's pretend! :)

[Poor Student]

If we continue to have winters like this then a conventional football season will require a winter break. For this very reason that you can encounter such unplanned adverse conditions that can decimate a footballing schedule I think we're better with summer football.

[BonnieShels]

Having struggled to get home from Edinburgh the last few days and just the sheer misery if it all. I think we can say that summer football is here to stay.

[Charlie Darwin]

Even without severe weather like we've had the past couple of years, for a league with infrastructure as poor as the LOI it should be a no-brainer.

[BonnieShels]

Even without severe weather like we've had the past couple of years, for a league with infrastructure as poor as the LOI it should be a no-brainer.

In a real country that uses logic and reason in decision-making processes that would be the case. But this is Ireland and the FAI are in charge of soccer in this State.
I full expect an 18 team league with a split and winter football to be with us in 2012.

[marinobohs]

In a real country that uses logic and reason in decision-making processes that would be the case. But this is Ireland and the FAI are in charge of soccer in this State.
I full expect an 18 team league with a split and winter football to be with us in 2012.

with 1,2,3,4,5,(maybe more) points available in every game :o

[peadar1987]

with 1,2,3,4,5,(maybe more) points available in every game :o

The better your pre-match DVD the more points you get?

[Macy]

Orange balls and big coats. I hadn't realised LoI fans had turned into a bunch of mard arses after only a few seasons of summer football.

[A face]

So where is this going? Its all gone quiet ..... is it just being pushed through, complete disregard for any sort of logic or reason. Will anyone be culpable for it? Is there anyway of identifying that. I know the FAI will point the finger at the clubs can we identify them first anyway ...

Athlone Town
Bohemians
Bray Wanderers
Cork City FC - Voted for Summer Soccer
Derry City
Drogheda United
Dundalk
Finn Harps
Galway United
Limerick
Longford Town
Mervue United
Monaghan United
Salthill Devon
Shamrock Rovers
Shelbourne
Sligo Rovers
Sporting Fingal
St. Patrick's Athletic
U.C.D.
Waterford United
Wexford Youths

[BonnieShels]

The better your pre-match DVD the more points you get?

*Removal of Drunken gibberish*

[passerrby]

from readin back on this and other threads it looks like
Monaghan Summer
Longford Winter
Athlone Winter
Sligo Winter
Shams Summer
Cork Summer
Galway Winter
Derry Summer
Harps Winter
not to sure of the rest.
but if anyone would just look out there window i think that should end the arguement

[peadar1987]

*Removal of Drunken gibberish*

I was about to ask about that!

"I hate you peadar. I only hate the Lep!" :D And you were going to get my POTM nomination and everything!

[A face]

from reading back on this and other threads it looks like ...... but if anyone would just look out there window i think that should end the argument

I'm gonna highlight the ones looking to change so we know who is who. Anyone know the rest?

Athlone Town - Winter
Bohemians
Bray Wanderers
Cork City FC - Summer
Derry City - Summer
Drogheda United
Dundalk
Finn Harps - Winter
Galway United - Winter
Limerick
Longford Town - Winter
Mervue United
Monaghan United - Summer
Salthill Devon
Shamrock Rovers - Summer
Shelbourne
Sligo Rovers - Winter
Sporting Fingal
St. Patrick's Athletic
U.C.D.
Waterford United
Wexford Youths

[bullit]

I'm gonna highlight the ones looking to change so we know who is who. Anyone know the rest?
Judging from the four page debate on our own forum,DundalkFC fans want summer football.

[**FrOsTy**]

Summer for Waterford

[BonnieShels]

Summer for Waterford

You'd have thought Frosty would punt for winter.

[BonnieShels]

I was about to ask about that!

"I hate you peadar. I only hate the Lep!" :D And you were going to get my POTM nomination and everything!
Best not to ask what I was up to. The flashbacks from Friday are haunting me.

[A face]

Judging from the four page debate on our own forum,DundalkFC fans want summer football.


Summer for Waterford

But is this the way the club voted? There obviously will be cases where the vast majority of fans will want summer soccer but their club, without any consultation and against fans wishes will have voted for winter football instead. I'm just trying to identify which way clubs voted.

[Macy]

But is this the way the club voted? There obviously will be cases where the vast majority of fans will want summer soccer but their club, without any consultation and against fans wishes will have voted for winter football instead. I'm just trying to identify which way clubs voted.
I'd agree the clubs don't appear to have consulted fans (although members clubs should be fairly representative) and so fans veiws have no influence on how the club votes, but also you can't make the leap that internet forums are representative of all fans either. Using Dundalk as an example, just because the fans on the internet forum are against winter football doesn't necessarily translate to a majority of Dundalk fans are againts a return to winter football (same as the poll here doesn't represent the whole LoI fanbase, whichever way the vote goes).

[sligoman]

But is this the way the club voted?Is this whole thing not guesswork though? Or have I missed where clubs have said what way they voted?

AFAIK, Rovers have never said what they voted for so don't see why people are saying we voted winter(although the former chairman did want it a few years ago)

[A face]

I'd agree the clubs don't appear to have consulted fans (although members clubs should be fairly representative) and so fans veiws have no influence on how the club votes, but also you can't make the leap that internet forums are representative of all fans either. Using Dundalk as an example, just because the fans on the internet forum are against winter football doesn't necessarily translate to a majority of Dundalk fans are againts a return to winter football (same as the poll here doesn't represent the whole LoI fanbase, whichever way the vote goes).


Is this whole thing not guesswork though? Or have I missed where clubs have said what way they voted?

AFAIK, Rovers have never said what they voted for so don't see why people are saying we voted winter(although the former chairman did want it a few years ago)

Lads, i know that this thread is not fully representative of LOI, it will never be and never has been. Equally if you were to interview a cross section of fans going into a game, they wouldn't represent the whole fan base. I am not claiming it will ever do that.

Of the LOI fans that are online here (if you could say its a representative cross section or not) its a gauge of what they think.

Also, i know its guess work on here, as is player transfers, match attendances, breaking news, clubs financial status, etc. but we do know that all 22 clubs have voted and for something which is going to have such a profound affect on the league and LOI fans being the biggest group of stakeholders by far i don't think its unfair for us to try and establish who is voting which ever way.

Fans, on here, should be able to get it fairly bang on what way clubs have voted, and its not harm in fans knowing what way their club did vote. I know some chairmen probably thought that they would never have another single bit of limelight from this but because of the lunacy of it i think we all deserve to know who is making this decision on our behalf.

This is an open forum and this thread is open for opinion, for both Winter and Summer. If Winter football is the best way to go then lets hear why? one in four people seem to think it is the way to go. Why? The only argument so far is for nostalgia and games at Christmas etc. There is nothing concrete like some sort of analysis or forecast. With the absence of any of this, its definitely not unfair to question the reasoning behind it.

There is a good article (http://foot.ie/entries/123-A-cold-dark-and-backwards-step) on it here.

[legendz]

Some in the GAA seem a bit worried by the number of live games the LoI is going to be getting:
http://www.examiner.ie/sport/costello-turns-guns-on-rte-138626.html

It goes to show the league will be enjoying more exposure.

One point on Winter football or not, when clubs start qualifying for Europa League group stages, they'll be playing until the middle of December. The weather has been bad of late but it wouldn't stop me going to a game. I'm not really too fussed whether it's summer or a winter season. I think the summer season has been going grand. If I had to make a choice though, I'd be for a mid-July start to the season. Having the same season as Junior and Intermediate clubs is the best way for new clubs to join the league and leave as well it they feel it's in their best interests. I think the A Championship in a winter season might have attracted more clubs.

[osarusan]

but we do know that all 22 clubs have voted and for something which is going to have such a profound affect on the league.

A Face ,why do you continue to ignore the arguments that are made which suggest that it won't have a profound effect on the league. Seeing as attendances didn't change with the introduction of summer football, how can you say there will be a profound effect on them with a return to winter football? And seeing as how it's impossible to tell how much of an effect summer football had on European success when we consider the full-time status of most of those teams, what profound effects are you talking about?

You continue to describe a desire for winter football as lunacy without making any attempt to debate the points put to you, and you criticise people for not offering something 'concrete like an analysis or forecast' while totally failing to provide these yourself.

[gufct]

I am neither for or against summer football but I know from talking to a lot of Galway United Supporters in the last few months especially those I havent seen at a loi game in a while Summer Soccer causes problems to the majority who have children .The reason being that they are either involved in GAA Games or Training with their youngsters all summer long plus other activities tied in with their kids on Friday/Saturday nights during the summer whereas they have more freetime on winters evenings.

[legendz]

I am neither for or against summer football but I know from talking to a lot of Galway United Supporters in the last few months especially those I havent seen at a loi game in a while Summer Soccer causes problems to the majority who have children .The reason being that they are either involved in GAA Games or Training with their youngsters all summer long plus other activities tied in with their kids on Friday/Saturday nights during the summer whereas they have more freetime on winters evenings.

Like you, I'm neither for or against either. It's a good point regards supporters you've spoken to, summer activities can take up people's time. As I say, if I had to make a choice, I'd go with a mid-July start to the season.

[Macy]

Equally if you were to interview a cross section of fans going into a game, they wouldn't represent the whole fan base.
You, or rather they (as in the FAI), could get a statistically relevant sample across the league to help make decisions. They could also carry out research with a wider general population sample. They could've done it for the move to summer football, or for a 10 team league. They're either not arsed enough to bother, or scared what they'll get back won't suit them. The scared point is particularly relevant when looking at current decisions - a few heads are so tied with summer football and the ten team league that they'd be embarrassed if the results went the "wrong" way. So they won't and will continue to do things on a whim.

[thischarmingman]

EDIT: Already posted above.

[Charlie Darwin]

Some in the GAA seem a bit worried by the number of live games the LoI is going to be getting:
http://www.examiner.ie/sport/costello-turns-guns-on-rte-138626.html
This is bizarre.


"By 2013, RTÉ will screen more live games of League of Ireland soccer than Gaelic games championship action (hurling and football combined)," noted Costello.
Um, yeah, because you sold the rights to half the games (including all Dublin fixtures) to TV3. These mandarins really have no shame.

[brendy_éire]

Some in the GAA seem a bit worried by the number of live games the LoI is going to be getting:
http://www.examiner.ie/sport/costello-turns-guns-on-rte-138626.html

It goes to show the league will be enjoying more exposure.

A bit of a strange article. They're saying that TV coverage of GAA matches is causing a drop in attendances, but then complain that RTÉ are showing less GAA and more LoI, even though it was the GAA that wanted less games on TV. What....?

I do get why some of the rural clubs may think it'd be easier for their fans to attend matches during the winter, but how many of them would be out in days like this (assuming the match even goes ahead)? The IL had no matches last weekend, and is unlikely to have any this weekend, bar maybe at Solitude or Seaview. We'd have weeks of the only matches in the League being paid in Dundalk.
We should just accept that we don't have the climate for winter football (and so should the IL and Scotland for that matter).

[mrtndvn]

A Face ,why do you continue to ignore the arguments that are made which suggest that it won't have a profound effect on the league. Seeing as attendances didn't change with the introduction of summer football, how can you say there will be a profound effect on them with a return to winter football? And seeing as how it's impossible to tell how much of an effect summer football had on European success when we consider the full-time status of most of those teams, what profound effects are you talking about?

You continue to describe a desire for winter football as lunacy without making any attempt to debate the points put to you, and you criticise people for not offering something 'concrete like an analysis or forecast' while totally failing to provide these yourself.

How about our winters are a LOT worse now.

What are the attendances for FAI cup finals since Summer football compared to the previous 6 during winter football?

[MariborKev]

Is this whole thing not guesswork though? Or have I missed where clubs have said what way they voted?

It is to an extent, depends on the poster(do they know/have the club said/are the completely bull****ting).

Derry voted Summer, definately.

[BonnieShels]

Just read your blog post Kev and everything you said is bang on.
It is very clear, from what I can gauge, that most of us (those who have commented anyway) are against this mentalism.
As has been previously pointed out, this is not necessarily representative of LOI fans as a whole or representative of all of the nuances of what opinions are on here however it is what we have to go on.
So how about we use it and use our opposition (that is, those of us who are opposed, here) to this extraordinary idea and do something about it?
It may fall on deaf ears and it may go no where but our opinions on this forum will go just as far with the people who decide this.
It is our game. And we are the people who are there come rain or shine. Our opinions matter.

[MariborKev]

BS,

As I said in the blog(Here (http://foot.ie/content/1473-A-cold-dark-and-backwards-step), fo those that want to read it), we have seen no explanation of the rational of this move.

As for getting people to do anything on it, good luck with that.

[BonnieShels]

Oh don't get me wrong you are correct that it will go no where most likely. But I actually fear that this is so retrograde that it could annhilate some clubs at this stage.

[Mr A]

The FAI won't let it happen anyway so I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about it to be honest.

[osarusan]

I've read Maribor Kev's blog, and while most of what he says is correct, he only tells half the story.

In the blog he looks at a move to winter football in relation to the following points:

* Playing Quality
* Finances
* European Competition
* Spectators
* Facilities
* Crowds

and concludes that winter football will not be good for improving any of them. And I have no argument with that. but what he doesn't mention is the link between those points and summer football, with the exception of playing quality. I agree with him that better pitches allow better football, and the fewer games called off the better.

As for the rest, the link between them and summer football is tenuous at best. With regard to finances, what evidence is there that summer football leads to better finances?

European competition - again, we have had better results in recent years, but in my opinion, the full-time status of the teams in europe is the bigger factor in that success.

Spectators - crowds haven't increased, so I think we can conclude that the theory that the average punter was more likely to drop in on a summer's evening than a winter's evening is by no means proven. It seems to me that the average punter isn't likely to drop in at all, no matter what the weather is like.

Facilities - unless you believe that lots of sunlight helps facilities to sprout from the soil - what's the link? That given our facilities, it's nicer to watch football in summer? As MariborKev says in his blog, "None of this matter to us, we're fanatics." But my point is that apart from the fanatics who don't care about facilities, weather, or quality of football, the league has failed to attract others in summer as much as in winter.

Crowds - as I've mentioned, crowds haven't gone up. Numbers have basically stayed the same, and I'd argue that any increases are driven by the success of the team in question rather than the weather.

In his blog, Kev makes two very salient points on of which I've already quoted - that being that us maniacs will watch the games regardless. But I don't agree that summer football has been successful in generating increased numbers at games, so I don't see how returning to winter football will have such a terrible effect on crowds.

Secondly, Kev makes this point, "People will not come back if there is winter football. People will come if you are winning games." Why are these two things seen as mutually exclusive? They're not.

If LOI can offer decent entertainment in decent facilities, people will come to watch, regardless of the season. If LOI can't offer that, people won't come to watch, regardless of the season.

I've already given my opinion on the issue - I'd prefer to stay with summer football, because it will have fewer games called off and because that's what we have at the moment, and I see no reason to change. But the notion that a return to winter football is a huge step backwards for the league is something I disagree with. It will be a sidewards step, making little difference to the league's ability to attract new fans or sponsorship.

[Macy]

How about our winters are a LOT worse now.
Worse compared to the previous decade or so, not compared to the entire history of the league, which has been pointed out before, the league survived through.


What are the attendances for FAI cup finals since Summer football compared to the previous 6 during winter football?
Too many other variables to use that as any evidence one way or the other, imo.

[mrtndvn]

This is actually silly. It's such a not argument.

People "survive" cancer these days, doesn't mean we should all rush out and get it. Granted that's extreme, but anyone who thinks winter football is the answer seriously wants to rethink the questions they are asking.

[pineapple stu]

What a remarkably silly post. And unfortunately typical of the "arguments" on both sides of the debate.

If anyone wants to post any actual evidence either way, feel free. Any more posts like the one above and the thread gets closed.