Paul George

[TrapAPony]

In todays Star (on page 54) it states that 16 year old Paul George of Celtic has joined us from the North.

It says that the FAI have pulled off a major coup with the decision of Belfast born Celtic youngster Paul George to declare for Ireland. Northern Ireland chiefs had hoped to retain the services of the striker who recently signed a three year professional contract at Parkhead for this weeks UEFA U17 qualifiers but he withdrew from the squad to switch allegiance. :D

[Predator]

I seem to remember Belfast Green talking about this lad a few months back. Do you know much else about him? Where does he play?

[AlaskaFox]

http://www.celticfc.net/home/academy/under15.aspx
Right midfield.

Favourite player: McGeady.
Must be why he changed.

[TrapAPony]

Where does he play?

Striker according to the article in the Star.

[AlaskaFox]

Played as a second striker in this game:
http://videocelt.blogspot.com/2010/05/paul-george-and-islam-feruz-making.html

[Sullivinho]

John Ringo has also switched ;)

Welcome aboard Paul.

[co. down green]

Welcome to 'The Boys In Green' Paul :)

Good luck to the Killough lad on his international future.

[Predator]

Seems like he is fairly versatile. Good luck to him.
It'll be interesting if the kid is subjected to the same kind of abuse that Gibson, Kearns, Duffy et al have been.

[EalingGreen]

How ironic that this should emerge on the same day as a former NI & Celtic player, Anton Rogan, should express his opinion on "switching" Nationality:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/multimedia/dynamic/00392/anton_392423t.jpg
Anton Rogan says people born in Northern Ireland should play for Northern Ireland



Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/anton-rogan-bares-his-true-colours-for-northern-ireland-14985995.html#ixzz13Pj8GJfS

As a Catholic from west Belfast who was playing his club football for Celtic, Rogan became a target.

Twenty-two years later players from the same area as Rogan have elected to play for the Republic of Ireland, while two particular Celtic players are amongst those who are favoured most by Northern Ireland fans.

As despicable as it was that Rogan’s first appearances for his country at Windsor Park was marred by abuse from a section of the Northern Ireland support, he wouldn’t have followed any other route onto the international scene and he insists that where you’re born should dictate who you play for, not holding dual nationality.

“I was born in Belfast and I had to play for Northern Ireland. That was my philosophy and always had been,” he said.

“If I’d been born in Dublin I’d have played for the Republic, but I was born in Belfast and I wanted to play for Northern Ireland.

“I enjoyed playing for Northern Ireland

“Things have changed since 1988. You don’t see Paddy McCourt or Niall McGinn coming on and getting booed, which is good for football and it’s good young boys like that play for Northern Ireland because they are born there.

“If you’re born there you play for Northern Ireland.”

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/anton-rogan-bares-his-true-colours-for-northern-ireland-14985995.html#ixzz13PhupogW

[The Fly]

How ironic that this should emerge on the same day as a former NI & Celtic player, Anton Rogan, should express his opinion on "switching" Nationality:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/multimedia/dynamic/00392/anton_392423t.jpg
Anton Rogan says people born in Northern Ireland should play for Northern Ireland



Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/anton-rogan-bares-his-true-colours-for-northern-ireland-14985995.html#ixzz13Pj8GJfS

As a Catholic from west Belfast who was playing his club football for Celtic, Rogan became a target.

Twenty-two years later players from the same area as Rogan have elected to play for the Republic of Ireland, while two particular Celtic players are amongst those who are favoured most by Northern Ireland fans.

As despicable as it was that Rogan’s first appearances for his country at Windsor Park was marred by abuse from a section of the Northern Ireland support, he wouldn’t have followed any other route onto the international scene and he insists that where you’re born should dictate who you play for, not holding dual nationality.

“I was born in Belfast and I had to play for Northern Ireland. That was my philosophy and always had been,” he said.

“If I’d been born in Dublin I’d have played for the Republic, but I was born in Belfast and I wanted to play for Northern Ireland.

“I enjoyed playing for Northern Ireland

“Things have changed since 1988. You don’t see Paddy McCourt or Niall McGinn coming on and getting booed, which is good for football and it’s good young boys like that play for Northern Ireland because they are born there.

“If you’re born there you play for Northern Ireland.”

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/anton-rogan-bares-his-true-colours-for-northern-ireland-14985995.html#ixzz13PhupogW

That settles it then. :rolleyes:

[Junior]

Whats ironic?

A former player expresses his opinion on the matter of playing for Northern Ireland. Surely these things come out fairly routinely, albeit not Anton Rogan ones, a man who just doesnt do interviews it seems. Listened to a podcast recently including an interview with Anton (his first of the sort he claimed), mainly about his playing days with Celtic but included some of his thoughts on playing for Norn Iron. Mainly confirming what he said above.

Interestingly, based on what he said with regards to his complete non interest in football these days - bearly managing to watch a match on the tv. I doubt whether he has any knowledge or awareness of Gibson, Duffy, CAS, etc..etc...

[Predator]

Isn't it a good thing that Rogan's opinion has no bearing on FIFA's statutes regarding national team eligibility? Nevertheless, I'm glad that he enjoyed playing for Northern Ireland, even if I find it odd, considering that he was subject to such abuse.

[Sullivinho]

Things have changed since 1988.

They're changing all the time. :good:

[EalingGreen]

That settles it then. :rolleyes:Who is claiming that it "settles" anything?

The purpose of my post was to counter the notion prevailing on this forum (and elsewhere) that it is natural/inevitable/recommended etc that NI-born youngsters from a Nationalist and/or Celtic background should play for ROI over the country of their birth, that's all.

[The Fly]

Who is claiming that it "settles" anything?


err......nobody.



The purpose of my post was to counter the notion prevailing on this forum (and elsewhere) that it is natural/inevitable/recommended etc that NI-born youngsters from a Nationalist and/or Celtic background should play for ROI over the country of their birth, that's all.

The notion is more that most NI-born youngsters from said background would have more of a natural inclination/affiliation towards the Republic of Ireland over Northern Ireland.

Playing for the ROI in international football would merely follow on as a consequence.

[EalingGreen]

Whats ironic?

A former player expresses his opinion on the matter of playing for Northern Ireland. Surely these things come out fairly routinely,The timing, for one thing. Plus the fact that Anton is not just any old "former player", but one who is frequently cited by the NI team's detractors as being an example of why young Nationalists may/should not represent the country of their birth.

I might have added that this is the same month when NI fans were calling for Paddy McCourt to be recalled to the squad and Niall McGinn, who received unanimous acclaim when he made his return after injury, made the following comment:
“Anytime I have come on at Windsor Park I have enjoyed it and the fans have been great as well. I just love playing at Windsor Park and I just have to make the most of any opportunity that I might get.”
Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/niall-mcginn-desperate-to-play-part-in-northern-irelands-doubleheader-14969688.html#ixzz13PwoXF2K


Anton Rogan... ... a man who just doesnt do interviews it seems. Listened to a podcast recently including an interview with Anton (his first of the sort he claimed), mainly about his playing days with Celtic but included some of his thoughts on playing for Norn Iron. Mainly confirming what he said above.

Interestingly, based on what he said with regards to his complete non interest in football these days - bearly managing to watch a match on the tv. I doubt whether he has any knowledge or awareness of Gibson, Duffy, CAS, etc..etc...Just because you may be having difficulty in "playing the ball" doesn't mean you are entitled to "play the man".

The simple fact is, if NI was good enough for someone like him in the times that were in it then, there is no reason why they should not be good enough for other like him now, seeing as things have improved out of all recognition in the intervening period.

[EalingGreen]

Isn't it a good thing that Rogan's opinion has no bearing on FIFA's statutes regarding national team eligibility?Good for the FAI*, certainly, but far from "good" for football and community relations in NI generally (imo).

* - "Unfair, seedy and predatory" (as per Brian Kerr)


Nevertheless, I'm glad that he enjoyed playing for Northern Ireland, even if I find it odd, considering that he was subject to such abuse.Whilst Anton was certainly (disgracefully) abused by a section* of the NI support on occasion, it was not universally so.
For example, when he was substituted with five minutes left in a victory over Uruguay, having just played outstandingly well, he was given a standing ovation by the crowd.
The difference being that certain high-profile games attracted fans who were at least as much Rangers followerers as NI fans, and they booed him because he was Celtic (just as they also booed Alan McKnight for being a Celtic player, despite his being from a Protestant/Unionist background, but did not boo Catholic NI players from other clubs).
Such fans did not usually attend the less attractive fixtures like the Uruguay friendly, where the views of the "true" NI fans prevailed.
More to the point, they either don't attend at all these days, or else they have (finally) copped on, as eg Niall McGinn could testify.
Sadly, however, it seems young George won't now get the opportunity to experience the same cult status amongst NI fans as wee Niall.

Oh well, his loss.

Onwards and Upwards.


* - Anton himself implies that it was 10%.

[EalingGreen]

err......nobody.So what on earth was the point of your "That settles it" post (#10), then?


The notion is more that most NI-born youngsters from said background would have more of a natural inclination/affiliation towards the Republic of Ireland over Northern Ireland.

Playing for the ROI in international football would merely follow on as a consequence.By all means dispute what I post, but do not contradict views or opinions which I do not hold or express.

That is to say, I do not deny that most NI-born youngsters from said background have an inclination/affiliation towards ROI over NI etc.

Rather, in the light of the Paul George news, I was merely citing the words of Anton Rogan (plus the present-day examples of Niall McGinn, Chris Baird, Sammy Clingan etc) as to why it should not necessarily be so.

[Junior]

The timing, for one thing. Plus the fact that Anton is not just any old "former player", but one who is frequently cited by the NI team's detractors as being an example of why young Nationalists may/should not represent the country of their birth.

I might have added that this is the same month when NI fans were calling for Paddy McCourt to be recalled to the squad and Niall McGinn, who received unanimous acclaim when he made his return after injury, made the following comment:
“Anytime I have come on at Windsor Park I have enjoyed it and the fans have been great as well. I just love playing at Windsor Park and I just have to make the most of any opportunity that I might get.”
Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/niall-mcginn-desperate-to-play-part-in-northern-irelands-doubleheader-14969688.html#ixzz13PwoXF2K

Just because you may be having difficulty in "playing the ball" doesn't mean you are entitled to "play the man".

The simple fact is, if NI was good enough for someone like him in the times that were in it then, there is no reason why they should not be good enough for other like him now, seeing as things have improved out of all recognition in the intervening period.

You've lost me Im afraid (no need for a smart response to that either).

No difficulty in 'playing' anything, I wasn't inferring anything of Anton Rogan - Came across as a thoroughly decent bloke in the interview that I listened to, just thought I'd add, for those that were interested, that he has absolutely no interest in football these days and hasnt done since he finished playing. Hardly watches a game on the TV and is not involved in the sport at all, apart from helping out with his kids school team (or something equivalent). Thought that was quite interesting myself in the days when the ridiculous notion is often peddled that footballers have only two options in life once they finish playing, coaching or punditry!!

So Anton had thicker skin than most and didnt let the abuse affect him - fair play to him, its hardly a testimonial to stick on the IFA website though.

[Predator]

The simple fact is, if NI was good enough for someone like him in the times that were in it then, there is no reason why they should not be good enough for other like him now, seeing as things have improved out of all recognition in the intervening period.Notice what Rogan said:
"...but I was born in Belfast and I wanted to play for Northern Ireland."
He "wanted" to play for Northern Ireland. Good for him. Paul George, evidently, does not.
Obviously times have changed, but it simply comes down to personal preference and I think most people on this forum will appreciate that.

Also, I think the whole 'play for where you were born' stuff is, frankly, short-sighted.

[The Fly]

So what on earth was the point of your "That settles it" post (#10), then?


Take note of the smiley included in said post.



That is to say, I do not deny that most NI-born youngsters from said background have an inclination/affiliation towards ROI over NI etc.

Rather, in the light of the Paul George news, I was merely citing the words of Anton Rogan (plus the present-day examples of Niall McGinn, Chris Baird, Sammy Clingan etc) as to why it should not necessarily be so.

We already know that EG, but, thanks for the reminder.

[The Fly]

Also, I think the whole 'play for where you were born' stuff is, frankly, short-sided.

You mean 'short-sighted'. :p

[Predator]

* - "Unfair, seedy and predatory" (as per Brian Kerr)Not sure how much stock I'd put in Kerr's description. You can certainly argue that it's 'unfair', but 'seedy' and 'predatory' are an indulgence in hyperbole in my view.


Oh well, his loss.

Onwards and Upwards.
That's the spirit!

[Predator]

You mean 'short-sighted'. :pI do. :D

[The Fly]

Not sure how much stock I'd put in Kerr's description. You can certainly argue that it's unfair, but seedy and predatory are an indulgence in hyperbole and hypocrisy, in my view.


Fixed! ;)


I do. :D

No problem, I know you're a stickler for good grammar.

[EalingGreen]

No difficulty in 'playing' anything, I wasn't inferring anything of Anton Rogan - Came across as a thoroughly decent bloke in the interview that I listened to, just thought I'd add, for those that were interested, that he has absolutely no interest in football these days and hasnt done since he finished playing. Hardly watches a game on the TV and is not involved in the sport at all, apart from helping out with his kids school team (or something equivalent). Thought that was quite interesting myself in the days when the ridiculous notion is often peddled that footballers have only two options in life once they finish playing, coaching or punditry!!Really? For it seemed to me that far from his non-involvement in the game since he retired being an interesting footnote etc, by conflating it directly with his main point ("NI-born should play for NI"), you were trying to discredit that point, along the lines: "Sure what would he know, he doesn't even go to games these days etc".

And I note that you provide no explanation for the snide "Doesn't do interviews these days" comment, either.

Still, nice try at trying to scoop the ball back over your own goalline...


So Anton had thicker skin than most and didnt let the abuse affect him - fair play to himThick-skinned, eh? More "damning with faint praise", then?

No doubt he needed to be tolerant of circumstances that no player should have to endure, but I'd like to think that his forbearance was also at least as much down to an intelligence and perspective which allowed him to appreciate that, in his own words: "90 per cent of the [NI] fans were fine.”.

Plus I'd say he was pretty determined not to let the 10% prevent him making a career for himself, any more than he let that minority of Celtic fans who picked on him for his perceived lack of ability get him down, either. (If it wasn't so late, I'd type out the Jackie Dziekanowski story).


... its hardly a testimonial to stick on the IFA website though.Which could explain why it's not on their website, then.

Still, I'm glad that it is on the Lost Bhoys website (which, btw, I believe to be the source from which the Belfast Telegraph filched its "interview")

[DannyInvincible]

How ironic that this should emerge on the same day as a former NI & Celtic player, Anton Rogan, should express his opinion on "switching" Nationality:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/multimedia/dynamic/00392/anton_392423t.jpg
Anton Rogan says people born in Northern Ireland should play for Northern Ireland



Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/anton-rogan-bares-his-true-colours-for-northern-ireland-14985995.html#ixzz13Pj8GJfS

As a Catholic from west Belfast who was playing his club football for Celtic, Rogan became a target.

Twenty-two years later players from the same area as Rogan have elected to play for the Republic of Ireland, while two particular Celtic players are amongst those who are favoured most by Northern Ireland fans.

As despicable as it was that Rogan’s first appearances for his country at Windsor Park was marred by abuse from a section of the Northern Ireland support, he wouldn’t have followed any other route onto the international scene and he insists that where you’re born should dictate who you play for, not holding dual nationality.

“I was born in Belfast and I had to play for Northern Ireland. That was my philosophy and always had been,” he said.

“If I’d been born in Dublin I’d have played for the Republic, but I was born in Belfast and I wanted to play for Northern Ireland.

“I enjoyed playing for Northern Ireland

“Things have changed since 1988. You don’t see Paddy McCourt or Niall McGinn coming on and getting booed, which is good for football and it’s good young boys like that play for Northern Ireland because they are born there.

“If you’re born there you play for Northern Ireland.”

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/anton-rogan-bares-his-true-colours-for-northern-ireland-14985995.html#ixzz13PhupogW

Being born Irish nationals, none of the northern-born players who opt to play for Ireland have ever switched nationality, as you put it.

Second of all, there are and always have been plenty of players born outside of the north in NI squads down through the years. I'm sure Rogan was more than happy to play along with a few of them as international team-mates. Why is Rogan's opinion even worth consideration anyway? He is his own man; he's not Paul George.


So what on earth was the point of your "That settles it" post (#10), then?

You posted a quote from Rogan as if it in was in some way instructive, significant or should have any bearing on Paul George's decisions in life just because you'd be delighted to deny the lad an opportunity to line out for Ireland.


That is to say, I do not deny that most NI-born youngsters from said background have an inclination/affiliation towards ROI over NI etc.

Rather, in the light of the Paul George news, I was merely citing the words of Anton Rogan (plus the present-day examples of Niall McGinn, Chris Baird, Sammy Clingan etc) as to why it should not necessarily be so.

No-one has ever tried to infer that a player from a nationalist background ought to play for us out of necessity for fear he'd be cast down as a sell-out to his community, or however you might wish to put it. That's a straw-man that the likes of yourself have erected. No one would cast him down as such anyway. In spite of all this bizarre and warped nonsense of the FAI apparently breaching northern-born Irish nationals' identity rights or something, Irish fans and the FAI are not the ones trying to force players into playing for any team in particular here. Surely you haven't forgotten the farcical Kearns saga already? Who was it went to CAS for a moan there again?

As Predator rightly says, it's a matter of personal choice for a dual citizen to represent whichever of the two nations for whom he is entitled to play (just so long as he's good enough to be chosen). Not once have I ever come across anyone here, elsewhere or in person seriously refer to the likes of Paddy McCourt or Niall McGinn as turn-coats or such for representing NI, save for that Aidinho character who I suspect was a NI/Rangers fan on a wind-up anyway.

[gastric]

Ealing Green, take your head out of where the sun don't shine. George has worked within the FIFA rules and good on him. No one really cares what Anton Rogan says, rules are rules. To keep this argument going on what you percieve are supposedly moral grounds is ridiculous!

[Junior]

Really? For it seemed to me that far from his non-involvement in the game since he retired being an interesting footnote etc, by conflating it directly with his main point ("NI-born should play for NI"), you were trying to discredit that point, along the lines: "Sure what would he know, he doesn't even go to games these days etc".

And I note that you provide no explanation for the snide "Doesn't do interviews these days" comment, either.

Seriously - What is your problem with what I posted?

I have absolutely no issues with Anton Rogan or his opinions on playing for Northern Ireland, as has been posted by others, its his personal opinion and one that is not that controversial as far as I can see.

I wasnt trying to discredit his personal opinion, I was merely pointing out that he has no interest in football these days and as such I hazard a guess he is largely unaware of the furore of late with Gibson, CAS, Duffy, Kearns etc..etc.. not that it matters, he was giving a personal opinion based on when he played (I guess).

I didnt say he "Doesn't do interviews these days", I said "a man who just doesnt do interviews it seems" and there was nothing snide about it. I was quoting based on Rogans own words (in the interview you are already aware of by LostBhoys) and therefore thought it was a little bizarre that from doing nothing in the media he was all of a sudden doing the media circuit. However, you have suggested it was one and the same interview but I have no idea on that note.


Still, nice try at trying to scoop the ball back over your own goalline...

Oh dear, am I really 1-0 down, I didnt realise I was even playing, thats just not fair.



Thick-skinned, eh? More "damning with faint praise", then?

Nope - Just my personal opinion. Some Norn Iron players have managed to ignore, rise above the abuse, others are unaffected by it and others choose to just not go down that road - each to their own I guess. I loved Rogan as a Celtic player myself, was very young when he played so it was more of a pannini sticker book 'love' and that his name was a bit weird.....


No doubt he needed to be tolerant of circumstances that no player should have to endure, but I'd like to think that his forbearance was also at least as much down to an intelligence and perspective which allowed him to appreciate that, in his own words: "90 per cent of the [NI] fans were fine.”.

Plus I'd say he was pretty determined not to let the 10% prevent him making a career for himself, any more than he let that minority of Celtic fans who picked on him for his perceived lack of ability get him down, either. (If it wasn't so late, I'd type out the Jackie Dziekanowski story).

Ah cool, glad you cleared that up. So the 10% that abused him for playing for Northern Ireland was effectively the same thing as the 10% that picked on him for being a limited footballer for Celtic. Your stats on Celtic fans by the way - he never mentioned that in the interview.


Still, I'm glad that it is on the Lost Bhoys website (which, btw, I believe to be the source from which the Belfast Telegraph filched its "interview")

Out of interest why is "interview" in quotation marks? What was it if not an interview? I thought it was great to hear from a legend from the past. Some of these fans podcasts are brilliant these days, improving all the time and with content that is not the politically correct, standard responses and opinions expressed in official media channels.

[Closed Account]

John and Ringo.

What do I win?

[boovidge]

too late.

http://foot.ie/threads/143185-Paul-George?p=1416367&viewfull=1#post1416367

[Closed Account]

too late.

http://foot.ie/threads/143185-Paul-George?p=1416367&viewfull=1#post1416367
Dammit, I knew I should of got out of bed earlier.......

[paul_oshea]

Dammit, I knew I should of got out of bed earlier.......

should have.

[geysir]

should've

[Closed Account]

should have.
Dammit, I knew I should've paid attention in school.

[geysir]

Out of interest why is "interview" in quotation marks? What was it if not an interview? I thought it was great to hear from a legend from the past. Some of these fans podcasts are brilliant these days, improving all the time and with content that is not the politically correct, standard responses and opinions expressed in official media channels.

Our thin skinned member was most probably being sarcastic towards the BT, referring to "its interview" with Rogan being fliched from another source.

[Junior]

True geysir - re-reading it there, it was probably a dig at the BT - the paranoia and late nights are getting the better of me!

[paul_oshea]

should've

either or. :)

either-or

or is that Either/Or ;)

[SkStu]

a northern ireland player debate which includes a grammar lesson. Could this thread be any better?

http://theneave.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/chandler-bing-4212.jpg

[geysir]

How difficult can it be, to get a better teacher of grammar than Paul?

[paul_oshea]

well diffricult ;)

[EalingGreen]

Being born Irish nationals, none of the northern-born players who opt to play for Ireland have ever switched nationality, as you put it.FFS! I meant switching from one international football team to another - but you knew that, didn't you...


Second of all, there are and always have been plenty of players born outside of the north in NI squads down through the years. Indeed, and since the "Maik Taylor loophole" was closed, every single one of them has had at least one parent or grandparent who was born within the territory of the IFA.
I have seen no evidence that George has a parent/g'parent who was born within the territory of the FAI.


Why is Rogan's opinion even worth consideration anyway?I see. You don't like or agree with someones opinion and it is inconvenient for your own argument, so it's not "worth" anything, then?
Does that mean I am not allowed an opinion on this topic, either? Or is "freedom of choice" (NI-born Celtic footballers) somehow different from "freedom of opinion" (NI-born ex-Celtic footballers)?


You posted a quote from Rogan as if it in was in some way instructive, significant or should have any bearing on Paul George's decisions in life...Nowhere have I argued that George must follow Rogan's example. Rather, I pointed to Rogan to rebut the argument which is gaining currency that it is in some way "natural" for NI-born youngsters from a Nationalist background to play for ROI.
In every other part of the world, the natural choice is to represent the country of ones birth, unless choosing to represent some other country. Fair enough, George is permitted by FIFA to make such a choice, even though the basis for that choice has no parallel anywhere else in world football, so it must be accepted.
Nonetheless when someone like him claims that it feels "natural", that claim is unsustainable (imo). Rather, I would argue that he is making a conscious choice, on essentially politically motivated grounds, which I feel to be contrary to the spirit of sport, since politics should be excluded wherever possible.
Moreover, it is unhelpful in practice to the overall situation in NI, where we should be trying to bring people together, not segregating them (imo).


... just because you'd be delighted to deny the lad an opportunity to line out for Ireland.No-one should be denied the right to play international football if good enough, but in George's case, the IFA is according him that opportunity.
I just believe that everyone should have the right to play on the same basis, namely, if not born within the territory of the international Association one wishes to represent, one should be able to point to a parent or grandparent who was (or at least have resided within that territory for a qualifying period).
NI is the only part of the world where that principle does not apply, the FAI is the only Association which may exploit this exception and the IFA is the only Association which suffers by it.


No-one has ever tried to infer that a player from a nationalist background ought to play for us out of necessity for fear he'd be cast down as a sell-out to his community, or however you might wish to put it. That's a straw-man that the likes of yourself have erected. No one would cast him down as such anyway. In spite of all this bizarre and warped nonsense of the FAI apparently breaching northern-born Irish nationals' identity rights or something,It is you who is introducing such arguments (bold) to this thread not I, so it is your Straw Man, not mine.


Irish fans and the FAI are not the ones trying to force players into playing for any team in particular here. Surely you haven't forgotten the farcical Kearns saga already? Who was it went to CAS for a moan there again?Preventing someone from playing for one team is not the same as forcing them to play for another. The IFA attempted to do the former, in protection of its own interests, as every other Association will do when it feels its interests are being unfairly infringed.
And in any case, the latter is impossible - or haven't you heard eg of Stephen Ireland?

(Btw, you refer to "Irish fans". I would remind you that I am every bit as Irish as you, seeing as how I was born in Ireland - a fortuitous matter of "nature", rather than choice. Moreover, having grandparents from Tipperary and Leitrim, I should be in principle more entitled to represent the ROI than George, or maybe even you...)


As Predator rightly says, it's a matter of personal choice for a dual citizen to represent whichever of the two nations for whom he is entitled to play (just so long as he's good enough to be chosen). Not once have I ever come across anyone here, elsewhere or in person seriously refer to the likes of Paddy McCourt or Niall McGinn as turn-coats or such for representing NI, save for that Aidinho character who I suspect was a NI/Rangers fan on a wind-up anyway.I accept that FIFA accords George et al that choice, just as I accept eg that it rains a lot in Ireland. That doesn't mean I have to like it, or wouldn't change it, had I some way of doing so.

P.S. I like your closing line; when someone from "your" side (eg Rogan) argues something inconvenient, it must be worthless and when someone from "your" side (eg Aidinho) argues something highly embarrassing, they mustn't really be from "your" side at all. You know, such debating tactics really don't do your credibility any good...

[EalingGreen]

Ealing Green, take your head out of where the sun don't shine.Ireland?


George has worked within the FIFA rules and good on him.I am not denying that.


No one really cares what Anton Rogan saysOh, I dunno about that. Plenty of people on this forum alone have cared enough to comment on them. Including you.


... rules are rules.Something I trust you'll bear in mind the next time you are in dispute with eg a traffic warden...


To keep this argument going on what you percieve are supposedly moral grounds is ridiculous!So we can safely close half the threads on this forum, then. At least.

[EalingGreen]

Seriously - What is your problem with what I posted?My "problem" is that you seemed to be attempting to discredit the man, not his argument, it's just that you weren't so subtle as I suspect you intended to be.


I have absolutely no issues with Anton Rogan or his opinions on playing for Northern Ireland, as has been posted by others, its his personal opinion and one that is not that controversial as far as I can see.I don't consider it "controversial", either, but that is not the same as saying it is not newsworthy, at least on a "Man Bites Dog" basis.
That is, when eg Nigel Worthington asserts that "If you are born in NI, you should play for NI", his detractors queue up to point out that "He would say that, wouldn't he" (sometimes with barely concealed implications that he is bigoted etc for saying so).
However, when someone like Anton Rogan says it, it is rather different. After all, it is hard to label someone as being "West Brit" when they are, in fact, West Belfast...


I wasnt trying to discredit his personal opinion, I was merely pointing out that he has no interest in football these days and as such I hazard a guess he is largely unaware of the furore of late with Gibson, CAS, Duffy, Kearns etc..etc.. not that it matters, he was giving a personal opinion based on when he played (I guess).Rogan is sufficiently well-informed to know, for example, that other contemporary Celtic players such as McGinn and McCourt invariably get a warm reception from the NI fans. I know that since he mentioned it in the Lost Bhoys podcast - perhaps you missed that bit?

And btw, it is not strictly true to say he has "no interest" in the game, since he pointed out that he still plays occasionally, helps out with his kids team, keeps in touch with some of his old teammates and will watch occasionally football when it is on the TV (even if he doesn't sit down specifically to watch it).


So the 10% that abused him for playing for Northern Ireland was effectively the same thing as the 10% that picked on him for being a limited footballer for Celtic. Your stats on Celtic fans by the way - he never mentioned that in the interview.I never claimed that fans booing one of their own players for being crap etc is the same as booing him for having a certain background etc. I merely alluded to it to show that he was professional in the face of one type of criticism, just as he was professional in the face of another type.
Nor did I claim that "10%" of the Celtic fans slagged him, just a "minority". And I learned that from my two Scottish mates at the time, one of them a Glaswegian Celt, who both followed the domestic game avidly.



Out of interest why is "interview" in quotation marks? What was it if not an interview? I thought it was great to hear from a legend from the past.The BT "interview" did not include one direct question from McKinley to Rogan. Nor did it include anything that was not in the LB podcast. Rather, everything that was in the BT was also in the podcast, verbatim. And if you re-read the BT's piece, you will see that McKinley does allude to the podcast, though so obliquely that he must have been hoping that no-one would notice.
Therefore it is clear that McKinley never actually interviewed Rogan, but instead nicked a portion of the podcast and implicitly reproduced it in the paper as his own.


I didnt say he "Doesn't do interviews these days", I said "a man who just doesnt do interviews it seems" and there was nothing snide about it. I was quoting based on Rogans own words (in the interview you are already aware of by LostBhoys) and therefore thought it was a little bizarre that from doing nothing in the media he was all of a sudden doing the media circuit. However, you have suggested it was one and the same interview but I have no idea on that note.There you go again. Even if he had spent 5 minutes on the phone to a provincial paper like the BT, after giving an interview to a barely-known, highly specialist radio podcast like Lost Bhoys, that would hardly constitute "the media circuit", would it? I mean to say, he's hardly eg Stephen Fry, is he?


Some of these fans podcasts are brilliant these days, improving all the time and with content that is not the politically correct, standard responses and opinions expressed in official media channels.You got that one right, anyhow.

In fact, I thought it hilarious when the interviewer finally brought him round to the subject of NI, that Anton did not give the "politically correct" reply that the interviewer clearly expected! This was especially so considering that having slagged off NI in a previous podcast, the (Belfast-born) interviewer had gone to a great deal of trouble to track down Anton for this interview.

"And if. You know. Your history. It's enough to make your heart - WHAT THE FCUK WAS THAT YOU SAID?"

[SwanVsDalton]

Nowhere have I argued that George must follow Rogan's example. Rather, I pointed to Rogan to rebut the argument which is gaining currency that it is in some way "natural" for NI-born youngsters from a Nationalist background to play for ROI.

Is that argument gaining currency? I'm not sure. Regardless I don't think that's the actual argument here. It's not about what's 'natural', but about players 'naturally' having the ability to choose in a situation which is unique, but perfectly legitimate, in world football. An ability which the IFA unsuccessfully, and embarrassedly, attempted to close.

If Rogan or McCourt or McGinn or George or Gibson or whoever make their choice, then fair play to them. I'm very happy they've all had the option.

[co. down green]

I don't see the point in opening a new thread everytime a player from the north decides to play for Ireland, I know of another 3 or 4 lads (presuming they are deemed good enough to play for Ireland). No point in clogging up the Ireland section with individual threads because its going to become a regular occurance.

[geysir]

How ironic that this should emerge on the same day as a former NI & Celtic player, Anton Rogan, should express his opinion on "switching" Nationality:
The lad is merely switching Associations - not switching Nationality.

[Eirambler]

I don't see the point in opening a new thread everytime a player from the north decides to play for Ireland, I know of another 3 or 4 lads (presuming they are deemed good enough to play for Ireland). No point in clogging up the Ireland section with individual threads because its going to become a regular occurance.

Out of interest who are the others?

It would make sense to have one thread for all this as it looks like it could be a very regular occurance from now on. :cool2:

[Junior]

My "problem" is that you seemed to be attempting to discredit the man, not his argument, it's just that you weren't so subtle as I suspect you intended to be.

Nope, you've got that wrong Im afraid. Not quite the super sleuth you think you are. I've already said I was not trying to discredit anything. Take me at face value or dont, thats your perogative.


Rogan is sufficiently well-informed to know, for example, that other contemporary Celtic players such as McGinn and McCourt invariably get a warm reception from the NI fans. I know that since he mentioned it in the Lost Bhoys podcast - perhaps you missed that bit?

I don't recall Rogan mentioning the 'warm' reception that McGinn and McCourt get but thats not to say he didnt, more that my memory isnt that great.

Just had another quick listen to that section there, words along the lines of "Things have changed now...........", and with regards to McGinn and McCourt "....you dont see them coming on and getting booed do ya" or something to that effect.


And btw, it is not strictly true to say he has "no interest" in the game, since he pointed out that he still plays occasionally, helps out with his kids team, keeps in touch with some of his old teammates and will watch occasionally football when it is on the TV (even if he doesn't sit down specifically to watch it).

Not strictly true, no. Perhaps I should have said "very little interest" how would that suit you? splitting hairs I think. I did mention his kids team and watching the odd game on tv.


I never claimed that fans booing one of their own players for being crap etc is the same as booing him for having a certain background etc. I merely alluded to it to show that he was professional in the face of one type of criticism, just as he was professional in the face of another type.
Nor did I claim that "10%" of the Celtic fans slagged him, just a "minority". And I learned that from my two Scottish mates at the time, one of them a Glaswegian Celt, who both followed the domestic game avidly.

Good, glad we are clear that they are very different issues and Rogans professionalism has very little, if anything to do with this debate.

My mistake I intertwined '10%' and 'minority' how misleading of me. Splitting hairs? oh I see a theme developing......

Rogan's playing days were well before I started attending games, so not sure what level of negative support/abuse/derision he got. He seems to have cult status reading various celtic message boards but absence makes the heart grow fonder they say! Rogan never mentioned any negative feelings towards him from the Celtic support in the interview but it was never raised as a subject by the interviewer either.



The BT "interview" did not include one direct question from McKinley to Rogan. Nor did it include anything that was not in the LB podcast. Rather, everything that was in the BT was also in the podcast, verbatim. And if you re-read the BT's piece, you will see that McKinley does allude to the podcast, though so obliquely that he must have been hoping that no-one would notice.
Therefore it is clear that McKinley never actually interviewed Rogan, but instead nicked a portion of the podcast and implicitly reproduced it in the paper as his own.

Yep, geysir cleared that one up for me. Thought you were having a dig at the excellent Lostbhoys interview but in fact it was a dig at BT - fair dos.


There you go again. Even if he had spent 5 minutes on the phone to a provincial paper like the BT, after giving an interview to a barely-known, highly specialist radio podcast like Lost Bhoys, that would hardly constitute "the media circuit", would it? I mean to say, he's hardly eg Stephen Fry, is he?

Apologies, should have inserted appropriate smilie. I really didnt think it was necessary though.


You got that one right, anyhow.

In fact, I thought it hilarious when the interviewer finally brought him round to the subject of NI, that Anton did not give the "politically correct" reply that the interviewer clearly expected! This was especially so considering that having slagged off NI in a previous podcast, the (Belfast-born) interviewer had gone to a great deal of trouble to track down Anton for this interview.

Yes, the interviewer has his own views on NI from the 1 or 2 matches he attended as a youngster (though his memories of 'fear for his safety' was hardly hilarious?). He was obviously taken aback by Rogans position on the subject, all adding to the quality of the interview imo. i.e Anton did not go with the flow.



"And if. You know. Your history. It's enough to make your heart - WHAT THE FCUK WAS THAT YOU SAID?"

Sorry? Is that meant for me?


Thats probably enough long winded, pretty tedious posts which have basically gone way off topic. Either I am very poor at articulating a few simple observations (very possible) or you are a very sensitive soul.

Over and out......

[geysir]

Go easy Junior, you'll exhaust yourself. Just how long can you keep this pace going?