Paul George

[Predator]

I don't see the point in opening a new thread everytime a player from the north decides to play for Ireland, I know of another 3 or 4 lads (presuming they are deemed good enough to play for Ireland). No point in clogging up the Ireland section with individual threads because its going to become a regular occurance.I have no objection to threads being started on all eligible players, but I understand what you mean. Would you be in favour of one thread?

[Predator]

I have seen no evidence that George has a parent/g'parent who was born within the territory of the FAI.As I suspect you well know, George does not require a parent of grandparent to be born in jurisdiction of the FAI. Do you have a point here?


Nowhere have I argued that George must follow Rogan's example. Rather, I pointed to Rogan to rebut the argument which is gaining currency that it is in some way "natural" for NI-born youngsters from a Nationalist background to play for ROI.I don't feel that the 'argument' you intend to rebut is somehow 'gaining currency' - I think it's a fair assumption though. Surely you can appreciate that it is likely that a NI youth from a nationalist background, who has grown up supporting Ireland in a sporting sphere, will be naturally inclined to want to play for the same, without it being motivated on purely political grounds?


Nonetheless when someone like him claims that it feels "natural", that claim is unsustainable (imo). Rather, I would argue that he is making a conscious choice, on essentially politically motivated grounds, which I feel to be contrary to the spirit of sport, since politics should be excluded wherever possible.
Moreover, it is unhelpful in practice to the overall situation in NI, where we should be trying to bring people together, not segregating them (imo).One could quite easily say that having two teams on the island is unhelpful in practice, because we should be trying to bring people together and not segregating them - but I know that's a topic you don't particularly enjoy. In my opinion, there exists a socio-political reality in Ireland and it won't be affected that much by football players opting to stay with or leave the IFA.



I just believe that everyone should have the right to play on the same basis......but players do have the right to play on the same basis. They're all subject to FIFA's statutes, without exception.


I accept that FIFA accords George et al that choice, just as I accept eg that it rains a lot in Ireland. That doesn't mean I have to like it, or wouldn't change it, had I some way of doing so.And here's me thinking that after the whole drama that the IFA and its fans caused over the issue and the subsequent closure provided by the outcome of the CAS case, you'd have let it go.

[Crosby87]

Never trust a man with two first names.

[DannyInvincible]

FFS! I meant switching from one international football team to another - but you knew that, didn't you...

Hard to know what you mean sometimes.


Indeed, and since the "Maik Taylor loophole" was closed, every single one of them has had at least one parent or grandparent who was born within the territory of the IFA.

Good for them.

Besides, I wasn't referring to the "Maik Taylor loophole". I have no problem with Maik Taylor playing for NI. Maybe it seems a bit odd to some, but he qualified perfectly legitimately under the rules as they were at the time. Having at least one parent/grandparent born within the territory of the IFA is a different thing altogether from Rogan's ideal, however. Rogan is promoting the idea of playing where one is born themselves; not where one's parent/grandparent is born. Judging by his words, it would surely follow that he wishes to see a NI team of northern-born players only.


I have seen no evidence that George has a parent/g'parent who was born within the territory of the FAI.

Why would you be looking for evidence that George has a parent/grandparent who was born within the Irish state anyway? Surely, by now, you know that that is totally irrelevent. For how many years have you been trotting this misguided spiel out now? George doesn't require a southern-born parent/grandparent to validate his eligibility for us; he is every bit as entitled to play for us as you are with your Leitrim and Tipperary ancestry. ;)


I see. You don't like or agree with someones opinion and it is inconvenient for your own argument, so it's not "worth" anything, then?
Does that mean I am not allowed an opinion on this topic, either? Or is "freedom of choice" (NI-born Celtic footballers) somehow different from "freedom of opinion" (NI-born ex-Celtic footballers)?

It's not inconvenient for my argument. He merely offered an (ignorant, ill-informed and naïve) opinion, or wish of his own; not really a detailed argument for anything in particular. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's not like I was trying to censor him. :confused: I'm equally entitled to dismiss his opinion if I so wish. It's not that it's not worth anything because I happen to disagree with him; I just don't think what he says warrants any real sense of serious consideration because he clearly hasn't a clue what he is talking about and doesn't really offer much in the way of a convincing argument. I don't have to take everything everyone says seriously just because I believe in freedom of speech and opinion. The sole reason you stuck the link up was to provoke a reaction to what you clearly see as Rogan going against some grain within the nationalist community/Irish fans that you have imagined in your head; that being that there is a supposed expectation there that northern-born nationalists should declare for Ireland. Just because a nationalist from west Belfast believes northern-born Irish nationals should play for NI because he was willing to do so himself, doesn't mean people and other nationalists are going to or should reconsider all of a sudden and assume they'd been wrong all along. Likewise, just because he's a nationalist who used to play for Celtic and you have a myopic world view doesn't mean I owe his opinion any greater credit than the next person's.

Either way, the thing is that opinions such as Rogan's here aren't really all that important in the grand scheme of things seeing as he can't do anything to influence the rule-makers at FIFA. You posted it because you obviously viewed it as being in some way significant. Rogan is in no position to be telling anyone how to make their personal decisions in life. Nor are you or I.


Nowhere have I argued that George must follow Rogan's example. Rather, I pointed to Rogan to rebut the argument which is gaining currency that it is in some way "natural" for NI-born youngsters from a Nationalist background to play for ROI.
In every other part of the world, the natural choice is to represent the country of ones birth, unless choosing to represent some other country. Fair enough, George is permitted by FIFA to make such a choice, even though the basis for that choice has no parallel anywhere else in world football, so it must be accepted.

Is it not perfectly natural for northern-born Irish nationals to represent Ireland though? I would have thought it was entirely so. Of course, two can play your game; in every other part of the world, the natural choice is also to represent the country of one's nationality.

[DannyInvincible]

Nonetheless when someone like him claims that it feels "natural", that claim is unsustainable (imo). Rather, I would argue that he is making a conscious choice, on essentially politically motivated grounds, which I feel to be contrary to the spirit of sport, since politics should be excluded wherever possible.
Moreover, it is unhelpful in practice to the overall situation in NI, where we should be trying to bring people together, not segregating them (imo).

A conscious choice certainly, but it's a bit rich to sinisterly downgrade it as politically-motivated, as if it's a decision guided by sectarian undertones or something. He's merely expressing his national identity by exercising his right to represent his country if good enough for selection, just as a unionist (or a nationalist, if he wished to exercise his right to British nationality) would in deciding to play for NI despite having the option to play for Ireland. Is that a politically-motivated decision too? You can't force people to do something they clearly don't want to do and I'd argue that a positive method of aiding good relations in the north would be for the unionist community to acknowledge and wholeheartedly accept the Irish national identity espoused by those in the nationalist community who wish to embrace it. You seem keen to make that a taboo issue, however, as if there is something malign, bigoted or sectarian in a nationalist embracing Irish identity.

Or what Predator says; why not just join us and we can all be one big happy family if a true sense of togetherness is what you really want? ;)


No-one should be denied the right to play international football if good enough, but in George's case, the IFA is according him that opportunity.
I just believe that everyone should have the right to play on the same basis, namely, if not born within the territory of the international Association one wishes to represent, one should be able to point to a parent or grandparent who was (or at least have resided within that territory for a qualifying period).
NI is the only part of the world where that principle does not apply, the FAI is the only Association which may exploit this exception and the IFA is the only Association which suffers by it.

This again? It's been discussed to death. Get a new record.


It is you who is introducing such arguments (bold) to this thread not I, so it is your Straw Man, not mine.

I was specifically referring to guys like Owen Polley setting up contrived and twisted Facebook groups with odd titles such as "Protect Northern Ireland players' identity rights". The only ones to ever threaten northern-born Irish nationals identity rights were the IFA.

As for the straw man, it's a claim I've encountered time and time again on OWC and it is the implication in your posts. I just thought I'd reiterate what a load of nonsense it was seeing as you were insinuating that there was some sentiment finding ground in the nationalist community that young nationalists ought to play for Ireland. There clearly is no such sentiment or interest in dictating to young nationalists what national team they should line out for. Neither Paddy McCourt nor Niall McGinn have ever been vilified by the nationalist community as traitors or anything of the sort.


Preventing someone from playing for one team is not the same as forcing them to play for another. The IFA attempted to do the former, in protection of its own interests, as every other Association will do when it feels its interests are being unfairly infringed.
And in any case, the latter is impossible - or haven't you heard eg of Stephen Ireland?

The IFA attempted to limit the choice of northern-born Irish nationals to play for their national team. Let's nip this one in the bud and cut the bull****.


(Btw, you refer to "Irish fans". I would remind you that I am every bit as Irish as you, seeing as how I was born in Ireland - a fortuitous matter of "nature", rather than choice.

I think we share different definitions of what it is to be Irish. I have an Irish passport; presumably you have a British one and possess no interest in attaining an Irish one or being recognised as an Irish national. That's fair enough, but to bleet on about your apparent Irishness seems at odds with the facts. If anything, I suppose you could try and claim to be Northern Irish or something if that makes you happy.


Moreover, having grandparents from Tipperary and Leitrim, I should be in principle more entitled to represent the ROI than George, or maybe even you...)

Making up imaginary principles there again, I see... Why not just stick to the rules that are written down in FIFA's rule-book for all to see? No need for vague and wishy-washy principles to be introduced into the mix again at this stage. Oh, and as for the attempt at a subtle dig there; sorry to burst your little bubble of excitement here, but you're mistaken as to my background anyway. Not that my parentage or where on this island I was born would make the slightest ounce of a difference anyway as regards my eligibility to play for Ireland. In principle and in rule, of course. ;)


P.S. I like your closing line; when someone from "your" side (eg Rogan) argues something inconvenient, it must be worthless and when someone from "your" side (eg Aidinho) argues something highly embarrassing, they mustn't really be from "your" side at all. You know, such debating tactics really don't do your credibility any good...

My "side"? What are you talking about? My "side" has nothing to do with anything. I would have little time for Rogan's input no matter what his background was. Just because he's from the nationalist community doesn't mean I should take any more notice of what he has to say on matters. There isn't one single and homogenous nationalist orthodoxy, you do know?

As for Aidinho, he was apparently a Scottish Celtic fan with a fetish for Aiden McGeady and what appeared to be a mild interest in the Irish football team due to Irish ancestry. That is, of course, if he was indeed who he was claiming to be. There are plenty of opinions on here that I disagree with but I don't resort to claiming that certain posters who post things I disagree with must be on a wind-up or are not genuine Ireland fans just because they make me cringe for them. Aidinho was a bit of a special case, possibly in even that most patronising meaning of the word. His offerings were so bizarre and incitant, I just found it hard to even begin to concieve that he wasn't playing dumb and might genuinely be who he was claiming to be.

[gastric]

Ealing, dissecting comments and writing essays in response does not take away from the fact - Northern Born Irish people can play for us! Accept it and move on.

[Junior]

Go easy Junior, you'll exhaust yourself. Just how long can you keep this pace going?

Its out of character alright, I can hear you now geysir...."run forest....run.....":D

[punkrocket]

John Ringo has also switched http://foot.ie/threads/images/smilies/wink.gif


We are Unbeatleable.. we are unbeatleable..

[co. down green]

I have no objection to threads being started on all eligible players, but I understand what you mean. Would you be in favour of one thread?

I must have been having one of those days yesterday, sound like a right grumpy sod!! :)

A single thread would be good, could also be used to highlight potential players from the north who could do a job for us. A few pointers in the right direction to the FAI scouts can do no harm, although they are pretty much up to speed on all that goes on.

[Crosby87]

A single thread would be horrid every time the person's name came up after a bit of time you would be scrolling through a ton of crap. What if you wanted to talk about Caleb Folan today but he was in a thread mixed in with Sean Scannell, Terry Dixon, and Ger Crossley and the like? It would be so annoying.

[SaucyJack]

great post Danny.

[geysir]

A single thread would be horrid every time the person's name came up after a bit of time you would be scrolling through a ton of crap. What if you wanted to talk about Caleb Folan today but he was in a thread mixed in with Sean Scannell, Terry Dixon, and Ger Crossley and the like? It would be so annoying.

I don't think it would be as cluttered as you make out Crosby. Usually when players make a senior club appearance abroad, they have their own thread and certainly capped players have their own thread. But considering all uncapped (in senior competitive games) Nordies are eligible for the FAI, it might appear to make sense to lump any news about yewts into a 'Nordies are us' thread.
Personally I think such a thread would be better, but it will still be subject to being spammed by pages of lengthy riveting posts explaining such things that Rogan was a saint & legend for NI and only abused by 0.75% of spectators at WP - not the alleged 40%.

[Sullivinho]

If one examines rationalism, one is faced with a choice: either reject pretextual capitalist theory or conclude that the State is capable of significance. However, Roy Keane uses the term ‘textual deconstruction’ to denote the fatal flaw, and therefore the failure, of structuralist language. The subject is contextualised into a rationalism that includes truth as a whole.

It could be said that Paul George promotes the use of rationalism to challenge postcapitalist textual theory. Thus, an abundance of materialisms concerning not narrative, but neonarrative may be revealed. Textual deconstruction implies that reality serves to reinforce outdated, elitist perceptions of society.


The main theme of the neosemiotic paradigm of discourse is not discourse, as Shane Duffy would have it, but postdiscourse. “Society is fundamentally elitist,” says John Delaney. However, the premise of subcultural Marxism states that the goal of the writer is significant form, but only if narrativity is equal to art.

In a sense, the subject is interpolated into a rationalism that includes truth as a whole. However, this is a self-falsifying paradox. A number of theories concerning rationalism exist. Thus, the main theme of Darron Gibson's analysis of Sartreist absurdity is the role of the reader as poet. An abundance of deappropriations concerning a mythopoetical reality may be discovered.


A predominant concept is the concept of precapitalist consciousness. Nigel Worthington's analysis of the neocapitalist paradigm of expression holds that the State is capable of intention.

It is not so much society that is part of the failure of truth, but rather the stasis, and hence the absurdity, of society. In a sense, if textual poststructuralist theory holds, we have to choose between material narrative and Sontagist camp. Textual subdialectic theory suggests that cultural consciousness has objective value.


The CAS model of subdialectic textual theory is meaninglessness, and signals the collapse of postdeconstructivist society.

According to the FAI, a predominant concept is the distinction between opening and closing. But the subject is contextualised into a postdialectic construction that includes narrativity as a whole. Giovanni Trapattoni suggests the use of textual theory to modify the predominant cultural consciousness.


A predominant concept is the distinction between figure and ground. Several narratives concerning subpatriarchial theory exist. The primary theme is not, in fact, desituationism, but neodesituationism.

Several desemanticisms concerning neocultural desituationism refute this. Therefore, Marc Wilson's essay on subpatriarchial theory states that language is part of the genre of reality, given that the premise of dialectic deconstruction is invalid.


Any number of narratives concerning the common ground between society and consciousness could be employed if dialectic deconstruction holds. But any number of deappropriations concerning subsemanticist capitalist theory are nullified.

In a sense, an abundance of theories concerning the meaninglessness of constructivist society are fundamentally responsible for Daniel Kearns' decision, given that consciousness is distinct from culture.


Paul Green promotes the use of Foucaultist power relations to challenge the status quo. But Johnny Evans holds that we have to choose between semioticist socialism and the neodialectic paradigm of discourse.

Yes, but only if dialectic semanticism is valid; otherwise, we can assume that art is capable of deconstruction.

[gastric]

I await Ealing Green's dissection of this inspired post. It should be interesting to read!

[SwanVsDalton]

I await Ealing Green's dissection of this inspired post. It should be interesting to read!

[kidding] 2,000 words of non-stop point-by-point explosive action. Can't wait! [kidding]

[Crosby87]

I don't think it would be as cluttered as you make out Crosby. Usually when players make a senior club appearance abroad, they have their own thread and certainly capped players have their own thread. But considering all uncapped (in senior competitive games) Nordies are eligible for the FAI, it might appear to make sense to lump any news about yewts into a 'Nordies are us' thread.

Certainly understand your point just curious about what exactly is so inconvenient about clicking on the persons name who you want to discuss at the moment as opposed to one big thread.

[tetsujin1979]

It could be said that Paul George promotes the use of rationalism to challenge postcapitalist textual theory. Thus, an abundance of materialisms concerning not narrative, but neonarrative may be revealed. Textual deconstruction implies that reality serves to reinforce outdated, elitist perceptions of society.

In a sense, the subject is interpolated into a rationalism that includes truth as a whole. However, this is a self-falsifying paradox. A number of theories concerning rationalism exist. Thus, the main theme of Darron Gibson's analysis of Sartreist absurdity is the role of the reader as poet. An abundance of deappropriations concerning a mythopoetical reality may be discovered.

It is not so much society that is part of the failure of truth, but rather the stasis, and hence the absurdity, of society. In a sense, if textual poststructuralist theory holds, we have to choose between material narrative and Sontagist camp. Textual subdialectic theory suggests that cultural consciousness has objective value.

According to the FAI, a predominant concept is the distinction between opening and closing. But the subject is contextualised into a postdialectic construction that includes narrativity as a whole. Giovanni Trapattoni suggests the use of textual theory to modify the predominant cultural consciousness.

Several desemanticisms concerning neocultural desituationism refute this. Therefore, Marc Wilson's essay on subpatriarchial theory states that language is part of the genre of reality, given that the premise of dialectic deconstruction is invalid.

In a sense, an abundance of theories concerning the meaninglessness of constructivist society are fundamentally responsible for Daniel Kearns' decision, given that consciousness is distinct from culture.

Yes, but only if dialectic semanticism is valid; otherwise, we can assume that art is capable of deconstruction.
http://www.zgeek.com/forum/gallery/files/9/3/1/0/english-do-you-speak-it-demotivational-poster.jpg
No offence mate, nice one!

[Adrock]

I notice the NI assitant youth manager is the legend that is Pascal Vaudequin. One of those rare LOI imports you kind of wonder how the heck they ended up here. Good memories of him at Derry and Finn Harps my local clubs.
Thanks for the memories Pascal!

[Plastic Paddy]

One of the most enjoyable threads I've read on here in years. Sullivinho, Danny Invincible, Junior and Ealing Green please take a bow (although all doing so together is a bit much to ask).

Right, back to lurking...

:ball: PP

[ifk101]

Included in Celtic's travelling party for tonight's Europa League game.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2011/1020/europaleague_celtic.html

[tetsujin1979]

George signs new deal at Celtic: http://www.celticfc.net/newsstory?item=1910

[tetsujin1979]

George's dad's cousin was the winner of the Oscar for best short film at the weekend: http://www.celticfc.net/newsstory?item=2259

[seanfhear]

George's dad's cousin was the winner of the Oscar for best short film at the weekend: http://www.celticfc.net/newsstory?item=2259And of what use is that on the football field !. Only joking.

[co. down green]

Broke his leg in two places on Saturday after tackle for Celtic u19's. Speedy recovery to the lad.

[seanfhear]

Broke his leg in two places on Saturday after tackle for Celtic u19's. Speedy recovery to the lad. Never nice to hear about injuries.


Best wishes to the lad.

[Predator]

Ouch. Serious injuries often happen to the top talents, especially for Ireland. Duffy and Meyler recently for example.

Everton's Ross Barkley and England's next big hope similarly broke his leg last season aged 16/17, but made a few appearances for the first team this season and is the star player for their U18s in an American cup at the minute, so George can look at that and take some motivation. Not to mention Henrik, of course.

Fingers crossed that he'll be back sooner rather than later.

[liamoo11]

best of luck to him

[tetsujin1979]

made his comeback this afternoon as a sub for Celtic U20s against Falkirk (game still in progress at the moment)

<EDIT>

Gets an assist on his comeback, took a free kick that was headed in for the lead

[tetsujin1979]

interview with Paul on Celtic's website ahead of this evening's NextGen game against Sporting Lisbon: http://www.celticfc.net/newsstory?item=3384

[tetsujin1979]

scored this afternoon for Celtic in a friendly against Blackburn Rovers

[BonnieShels]

Excellent news.

I look forward to the day when this thread is accorded its previous and rightful place at the top of the Ireland forum.

[liamoo11]

helped celtic win the league and cup under 19/20 double this week.celtic s assistant manager named him as one of 3 players likely to see some action for the first team in the remaining games.would be great reward after horrible injury

[tricky_colour]

Always seem to be the case when a tread about a new Irish prospect is posted here that before the first page is compete we hear either

a) He is thinking about switching allegiance away from Ireland.

b) He has broken one or both of his legs!!!

Which brings me onto my second (or possibly first) point.

Milk!!!

Ireland has one of the highest (3rd) milk consumptions in the world!!

The countries which drink the most milk (surprisingly) have the highest rates of broken bones and osteoporosis!!

So perhaps it would be a good idea for Irish player to stop drinking milk?

On the other side of the coin the countries which drink the most milk win the highest number of Nobel prizes.


Perhaps there is a link here in that you have plenty of time to study whilst incapacitated by broken bones? (wonder if I can get a Nobel prize for making that link?).

[Paddy Garcia]

What would be useful is the correlation between milk drinking and footballing success please?

[peadar1987]

What would be useful is the correlation between milk drinking and footballing success please?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_milk_consumption_per_capita
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Rankings

Well, as we can see, only 8 of the top 20 milk drinking countries are in the top 20 FIFA ranked countries. However, as there are 209 FIFA associations, the chances of 8 randomly picked countries being in the top 20 are approximately 0.000000703%. Or, if you prefer, the chances of those particular 8 countries being part of the top 20 are about the same as you dropping a one euro coin onto Ireland and having it land on your house.

(Statistics: You can use them to back up any point you want!)

[geysir]

Well, it could also depend on how many footballers are available in any country, to cover for the broken bone attrition rate.

[Crosby87]

All he needs is Ringo and John and he's a band.

[tricky_colour]

What would be useful is the correlation between milk drinking and footballing success please?


Well of course there are a lot of factors which contribute to football success so it's gonna be complicated.
Winning Nobel prizes suggests intelligence which should be useful in football to a limited extent.
Bone strength is not going to be too big a factor as breaks are not that common and there are lots of other types on injury possible, ligaments etc...

I am trying to think of player who have had problems with broken bones but I can't recall too many successful ones.
Beckham had his metatarsal broken, think Michael Owen did too? (not sure)

[Crosby87]

SkStu will tell you his bone is sharp and he has done nothing but drink milk for 40 years. Just saying since this isnt a stupid discussion.

[tricky_colour]

In his autobiography, Keane said that before a World Cup qualifier away versus the Netherlands, the Irish players were eating cheese sandwiches because pasta, the proper diet before games, was not available

Now cheese is a milk product so not good for bones.

[Crosby87]

Triggs said it was good for boners. We must keep that in.

[tricky_colour]

Another aspect of this is that countries often field teams from an immigrant population so that may skew the figures.

I seem to recall that basically Northern Europeans drink more milk but that Africans drink hardly any, a lot of people do not have the
gene which allows adults to digest milk properly, the northern Europeans tend to but the Africans tend not to, same goes for Asians I think.

I think generally the more fair haired or fair skinned you are the more likely you are to have that gene.

[tricky_colour]

It is odd thought that the common conception is that milk is good for bones but the actually statistics strongly prove the opposite.

The idea is milk contains calcium so it much be good for bones, but I think it also contains lactic acid which dissolves your bones,
as does fizzy drinks apparently. But whatever there is a statistical connection between dairy products and weak bones.

[peadar1987]

It is odd thought that the common conception is that milk is good for bones but the actually statistics strongly prove the opposite.

The idea is milk contains calcium so it much be good for bones, but I think it also contains lactic acid which dissolves your bones,
as does fizzy drinks apparently. But whatever there is a statistical connection between dairy products and weak bones.

The statistics also show that pirate prevent global warming though, so I wouldn't be too trusting of what they seem to suggest!

It is interesting though, I wonder what the actual link is.

[SkStu]

My bone is sharp and i have done nothing but drink milk for 40 years. Just saying.

[tetsujin1979]

signed for Hamilton Academicals on loan until the end of the season: http://www.acciesfc.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2471:loan-arrival&catid=44:news&Itemid=140

[tetsujin1979]

was released by Celtic, and has signed for Dunfermline until the end of the season: http://www.dafc.co.uk/story.php?t=Paul_George_signs_for_Dunfermline&ID=8305

[Charlie Darwin]

Signs were there when he couldn't get into the Hamilton team on loan last season. Hopefully he can kick on now.

[SwanVsDalton]

On trial with Derry City, playing in a match for Mark Farren against Greencastle FC today.

[nigel-harps1954]

Just seen that George has signed for Ballarat Red Devils in what is the equivalent of the 3rd division of Australian football after not making a single appearance for Cliftonville.

His career has really gone down the drain.