Slovakia V Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 12th October 2010 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

[AlaskaFox]

Trap posted team sheet with Westwood in/Given out. The old Glasgow Kiss came into play. Shay back in goal.
Hart could get away with it, but not Keiren.

[Emmet7]

Keith Andrews is a big loss in the center of midfield, and really matured as an international in the World Cup qualifiers.

It's unfortunate for Green to be thrown in at the deep end, and Andrews and Whelan struggled in their first games too.

We don't have the players to play the ball around in midfield or even defence. There were a few times when we tried to play it across the back against Russia and were dispossessed and could have conceded goals. Technically we were a lot inferior to Russia. There's probably no alternative to the long ball game since we don't have technically gifted players in defence or midfield to work the ball out slowly.

[paul_oshea]

Indeed, but we do press when the midfielders approach our banks of four, and when we do were usually fairly effective at it (in particular Andrews). Green didn't help matters on Friday by being caught continually on the turn after charging ten yards off the half-way line. In fairness his timing was better in the first half, I seem to recall it being mostly the second when he was caught adrift too far forward.



Only in Paris did we really look like a decent passing side. Italian teams always give opposition time on the ball, but generally it's in their own half and so it proved against us as Dunne et al had plenty of time to play incisive long balls on to Doyle's head. It's not exactly pass and move stuff. But regardless is it really about being given time or how poor the opposition are....?



Oh. Well in that case it's a hopelessly negative view that ignores the fact Ireland took the game to two sides far superior in quality and gained credible results. These results wern't some lucky gift, we deserved them due to very good performances. Don't you at least partly accept if the opposition played poorly on the night we deserve credit for limiting them?



Or, I guess, how Russia have been over the last year? Guess we should've beat them off the park so since their form hasn't exactly been world class...

I'm not saying we were brilliant or France and Italy were top of their game or even that we shouldn't have beat them - but credit where credit is due. It's is unduly negative, and lazy, to say Ireland are poor when we get beat, but are lucky/the opposition are rubbish when we do well.

I am saying, that italy and france were shown up to be poor teams at the world cup. Had they performed like russia did against us on friday it wouldn't matter what results had gone before, that would still have been a good performance, but they didn't. Whatever went before for Russia, didn't matter the last day because they proved they can play football brilliantly at least on occasion, i dont think the italians or french did against us, or in the world cup. I do also think we made russia look better than they are. I would agree if Germany, brazil, argentina played poorly on the night some of it must be down to how we (would have) made them look poor.

And im not being lazy, i said and ill say it again, perhaps i wrote too close to the game that people didnt see my posts due to travelling whatever else on the day but people were being blindly optimistic and others were being scapegoated as mad men for questioning traps tactic and how he set us out. I worried that we might not have a plan b and if we ever had an off day due to how deep we play we could get a rollicking, and it happened. It has nothing to do with being lazy and saying we are poor, we have proved we are decent, again another word i used previouslly, but that these 2 games would show how far trap has really brought us? So far i think its 1 step back. If we beat slovakia 2 - 0 away from home, will I be wrong? I certainly wont be right, but I will still believe that changes are required.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't know who specifically I was referring to, just generically towards anyone who belittles our good showing against France and Italy because of their own poor showings in the WC. They were good performances regardless.

[TrapAPony]

Green hasn't shown in his three competitive internationals that he is good enough to play international football. Criticism of Green is qualified by his performances against Armenia and Andorra. He needed a "big" performance against Russia to prove his critcs wrong. That performance wasn't forthcoming. Running after Arshavin looking for his jersey at the end is despicable. He's a tourist.

Well said. However, Trap is probably going to persist with him though rather than admit that he is wrong to select him.

[paul_oshea]

ya so was the 3 -1 win against andorra.

I wasn't belittling but it was not as good as people think, again we get exaggerate at both ends of the scale, with tunnel vision.

[shakermaker1982]

Anybody see the Whelan interview on SSN today?

[paul_oshea]

No Go on, i might go down stairs they have SSN on, is it main headlines interview?

[SwanVsDalton]

Whatever went before for Russia, didn't matter the last day because they proved they can play football brilliantly at least on occasion, i dont think the italians or french did against us, or in the world cup.

I know Italy and France were not brilliant against us, but are you really saying they arn't capable of good performances at least 'on occasion' like Russia?


I do also think we made russia look better than they are. I would agree if Germany, brazil, argentina played poorly on the night some of it must be down to how we (would have) made them look poor.

Didn't we make Italy and France look more ordinary than they are? Italy and France, poor form or no, are hardly a bunch of cloggers. They had more than enough quality to turn us other, again we deserve at least some credit that this didn't happen.


And im not being lazy, i said and ill say it again, perhaps i wrote too close to the game that people didnt see my posts due to travelling whatever else on the day but people were being blindly optimistic and others were being scapegoated as mad men for questioning traps tactic

I'm seen this from a couple of poster's and it's really irritating - there's a fairly high level of debate around here (generally ;)) and I rarely read anyone being 'blindly optimistic' or others 'being scapegoated as mad men' for having the temerity to question Trap. In fact the opposite - rampant negativity and naysayery about the Ireland team and Trap's tactics - occurs far more.


I worried that we might not have a plan b and if we ever had an off day due to how deep we play we could get a rollicking, and it happened. It has nothing to do with being lazy and saying we are poor, we have proved we are decent, again another word i used previouslly, but that these 2 games would show how far trap has really brought us? So far i think its 1 step back. If we beat slovakia 2 - 0 away from home, will I be wrong? I certainly wont be right, but I will still believe that changes are required.

Loads of poster's would agree with a lot of this, myself included. Certainly even if we win tomorrow night there will plenty for manager and players to do. Long term I'm actually hoping the Russia game is something of a wake up call regarding personnel and tactics. Perfect timing as it's not come too late for us to do something about it.

[shakermaker1982]

Russia are the best international side he has faced.

The interviewer asks him whether they'll be looking to play a bit more football over in Slovakia and Whelan states it's up to the manager. The guy tries to get him to say he'd prefer playing football (instead of hoofball) but to be fair to Whelan he tries to be as diplomatic as possible. If he doesn't do what the manager says then he could be replaced.....

[Stuttgart88]

I think Trap is far more comfortable with the concept of us playing without the ball than most of us here would want, but I'm still not convinced he wants us to play a hoofball game. OK, so Shay was instructed to go long in the last 10 minutes, but why not? It was actually causing them trouble.

One of the very first things Trap had us doing was to get the CBs to carry the ball further forward than we did under Stan. I'm tending to side with Dunne's version of events which is that the players lacked the courage to trust their ability and do things the right way.

Slovakia away is certainly one of the most interesting games we've had in ages. Do we change, and if so, how? Do we just try and play better? Does Trap have the nous to do what's required? Are we just a third rate football country (at best - because I'd actually fear playing Macedonia away more than Slovakia right now)?

[paul_oshea]

I think Trap is far more comfortable with the concept of us playing without the ball than most of us here would want, but I'm still not convinced he wants us to play a hoofball game. OK, so Shay was instructed to go long in the last 10 minutes, but why not? It was actually causing them trouble.

One of the very first things Trap had us doing was to get the CBs to carry the ball further forward than we did under Stan. I'm tending to side with Dunne's version of events which is that the players lacked the courage to trust their ability and do things the right way.

Slovakia away is certainly one of the most interesting games we've had in ages. Do we change, and if so, how? Do we just try and play better? Does Trap have the nous to do what's required? Are we just a third rate football country (at best - because I'd actually fear playing Macedonia away more than Slovakia right now)?

stutts seriously it was for about 17 mins, from around 87 mins till the end, every single ball was hoofball, that is more than enough time to vary it.

[Condex]

"Despicable", get over yourself.

Green's attitude throughout is to give 100% and he gives 100%.
His contribution is not a lot compared to what we need, but it's still 100%.


If it was only about 100% we'd all be playing, Green eas crap I'd do better myself..

[shakermaker1982]

It is interesting how Dunne and Whelan do not come to the same conclusions on what is triggering this kick and rush type football.

If Dunne is right i.e. it's the defenders who panic and take the easy option by lumping it long then surely the Trap should and would be going mental at them if it's not what he wants? It happens too often to be solely down to the players in my view. Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with launching it now and again, but teams study videos and every man and his dog knew we'd hit it long to Doyle. Too predictable.

The funny thing about Doyle not being fit for tomorrow is that Slovakia haven't got a clue about what kind of approach we'll take tomorrow!!! I like it.

[paul_oshea]

It is interesting how Dunne and Whelan do not come to the same conclusions on what is triggering this kick and rush type football.

If Dunne is right i.e. it's the defenders who panic and take the easy option by lumping it long then surely the Trap should and would be going mental at them if it's not what he wants? It happens too often to be solely down to the players in my view. Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with launching it now and again, but teams study videos and every man and his dog knew we'd hit it long to Doyle. Too predictable.

The funny thing about Doyle not being fit for tomorrow is that Slovakia haven't got a clue about what kind of approach we'll take tomorrow!!! I like it.

Ya the even funnier thing is neither does Trap!!!

[Stuttgart88]

stutts seriously it was for about 17 mins, from around 87 mins till the end, every single ball was hoofball, that is more than enough time to vary it.My point was abit more nuanced than that! It was clear that the instruction late in the game was to hoof it, but it wasn't clear if hoofing it earlier in the game was an instruction or just they way it panned out. I thought that much of our play was directed wide in the early parts.

Did anyone else notice the moment in the first half when KK released McGeady along the wing, he passed Trap on the touchline and actually looked at him for permission to go further forward?

[Closed Account 2]

Anyone know a pub in central / north / west London that will be showing it? Ideally one that won't be showing the England game (which is on at the same time).

[paul_oshea]

No Id say kilbane just got a bit confused and was asking trap where was he, was he in the middle of the park or the left full slot or where was he at all at all.

Well, i was trying, as bad as my eyesight would let me see, trap wasn't gesticulating or shouting that much from the sideline in this period. Which to me suggests he was happy with the hoofball approach.....otherwise surely he would have been advising differently on the sideline?!

I know your point was but i cant be seen to be browsing continually on foot.ie even if i do so i have to nip in and out and raise certain things first, and i think 17/18 mins is quite a significant time compared to the last 10 etc....

[paul_oshea]

Anyone know a pub in central / north / west London that will be showing it? Ideally one that won't be showing the England game (which is on at the same time).

cfdh, im planning on mornington crescent nice irish pub in mornington crescent but he has a few tellies so he might show the england game too.

[Closed Account 2]

is that the sheephaven ?

[Stuttgart88]

Paul, I might actually go there too, as I'll be near Euston beforehand. Let me know if you're definitely going there. I've still to decide.

[Duggie]

on Long id be quite happy to see him start, i think he quite good tecnically, and is a good finisher. decent in the air aswell. im recalling his 2 finishes in the denmark friendly away like 2 years ago. his 2nd goal esp was a great finish.

[paul_oshea]

is that the sheephaven ?

yep.

Stutts i worked out from door to door from canary wharf it will take me 35 mins so im definitely going there. I hope its not too busy as there are some lovely bar stools around the back side of the bar and a tele in the corner with the sound always up high. Will be aiming for 7.30 to be out of Citi by 7 at the latest.

[Stuttgart88]

OK, I'll let you know.

Last time I watched Slovakia v Ireland was in the Corrib. Half-decent result but it felt like a defeat. ENG game will be on in the main bar.

[paul_oshea]

Yes and the last time you watched a game with me we lost....

[Dodge]

Trap doing a Press conference now. Journo mate text to say he's indicating Fahey will play on the right with Long up front.

[paul_oshea]

is that cos lawrence is injured?

so he is going with green and whelan. Does anyone think that stinks of stubbornness and ignorance, that he knows he needs to make changes but wont replace green or whelan who he brought through as though its an indictment on his regime? Or is he afraid if he puts gibson or fahey in the centre from the start we could be overrun and go behind too quickly? I would love to know what he is thinking, I can only assume he doesn't want to throw someone like wilson into the deep end so soon and thats all i think i can figure from him for def.

[Metrostars]

I hope Gibson gets a crack in this game from the start. He can belt the ball well and the Slovakian keeper is not the greatest so hopefully he'll get a chance to take a few shots at him. 2 of the Russian goals on Friday (and 75% of Frank Lampard's) were off deflections, but you don't get those if you don't take a shot in the first place.

[Docboy]

Maybe play Lawrence in the middle if he gets over the injury? At least his distribution is good...

[Noelys Guitar]

is that cos lawrence is injured?

so he is going with green and whelan. Does anyone think that stinks of stubbornness and ignorance, that he knows he needs to make changes but wont replace green or whelan who he brought through as though its an indictment on his regime? Or is he afraid if he puts gibson or fahey in the centre from the start we could be overrun and go behind too quickly? I would love to know what he is thinking, I can only assume he doesn't want to throw someone like wilson into the deep end so soon and thats all i think i can figure from him for def.

Probably looking back at the Armenian game and thinking Whelan and Green did OK. Mkhitaryan destroyed Slovakia on Friday but we kept him reasonably quiet so W & G did their jobs in that game. The best think about Long and Fahey starting (if rumours true)is that both players have played well and scored in recent games.

[Jinxy]

Probably looking back at the Armenian game and thinking Whelan and Green did OK. Mkhitaryan destroyed Slovakia on Friday but we kept him reasonably quiet so W & G did their jobs in that game. The best think about Long and Fahey starting (if rumours true)is that both players have played well and scored in recent games.

That door swings both ways though.
I'm sure the Slovakian midfield did a lot better against the Russians than we did.

[TrapAPony]

Green playing again? Ludicrous. He offers nothing.

[shakermaker1982]

If he plays Green again and we get a pasting then the Trap will have to avoid foot.ie for a while!

[mark12345]

There is no big secret to how we played in Paris or in Bari. The other teams backs off - wants to hold their advantage and back off from closing us down in our half.
The problem we have when teams put us on under pressure, we get into a total flux.
When teams come to Dublin, close down our back 4, close down any attempt to bring the ball through midfield, we are chronically incapable of doing anything other than lump it long in response. This has been happening for years.
One midfielder who can play is not enough. We saw that with Andy Reid, when he was targeted, we were scuttled. There is an dearth of that required technical ability on the ball and the movement into positions to receive the ball.

We don't have the techical ability to do much of anything with the ball and that's down to English football and the Irish players that play there - Germany exposed all the limitations of the technically bankrupt English game just a few months ago, didn't they?

So that leaves us with one way to play - Route One. And as much as I hate it we have to go with it (until we teach our kids from Dingle to Donegal to play proper football, and begin sending them to places like Portugal, Holland, France etc instead of England where they are drifting further and further down the food chain).

As for Friday's defeat I lay a huge portion of the blame on Trapattoni. He needed to employ a big man up front with Keane and Doyle (be it Murphy, Sheridan, Alan Lee of Palace or even John "Utility Man" O'Shea) and then our lumping of the ball forward at every occassion might have seemed just slightly logical.

Prehistoric I know, but if we're unwilling or unable to play football then we can't really call ourselves a football team can we?

[SwanVsDalton]

As for Friday's defeat I lay a huge portion of the blame on Trapattoni. He needed to employ a big man up front with Keane and Doyle (be it Murphy, Sheridan, Alan Lee of Palace or even John "Utility Man" O'Shea) and then our lumping of the ball forward at every occassion might have seemed just slightly logical.

Doyle is a better long ball target man than those you've mentioned. His leap, close control and strength means going long isn't usually an issue (and hasn't been for about a year and half). His poor performance, coupled with Russia's midfield preventing our middle four from adequately supporting him and Robbie, was the main problem on Friday.


Prehistoric I know, but if we're unwilling or unable to play football then we can't really call ourselves a football team can we?

Course we can. Charlton's team was a decent side who played non-stop hoofball and gave us our finest memories as Irish fans. But I bet you wouldn't interrupt Jack fishing to say his wasn't a football team...

[Charlie Darwin]

I hope Gibson gets a crack in this game from the start. He can belt the ball well and the Slovakian keeper is not the greatest so hopefully he'll get a chance to take a few shots at him. 2 of the Russian goals on Friday (and 75% of Frank Lampard's) were off deflections, but you don't get those if you don't take a shot in the first place.
Slovakian goalkeeper was magnificent against Armenia.

[mark12345]

Charlton's team was a decent side who played non-stop hoofball and gave us our finest memories as Irish fans. But I bet you wouldn't interrupt Jack fishing to say his wasn't a football team...

Couldn't agree more. I wouldn't stop Jack fishing to say his wasn't a football team. They were the best team we ever had in my opinion. They knew their limitations, the opposition's strengths and played accordingly. And what's more Jack made people fit into positions if he was short a player or two. Trap could take a leaf out of his book. Almost 16 years after Jack we're still happy in the knowledge that Route One is our best road to success, but I'm ok with that if we play accordingly.

[Kingdom]

Slovakia's result in russia was a travesty. The Slovak goal was dumbfounding brilliant. Shocking mistake by the keeper but a fine shot. How Russia didn't score I dunno,

[TrapAPony]

Weiss not considering defeat

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soccer/2010/1011/1224280867036.html

[tetsujin1979]

some comments from Ken Early's twitter account:
http://twitter.com/#!/kenearlys/status/27051470542 (http://twitter.com/#%21/kenearlys/status/27051470542)
trap says he told irish players to ignore the papers over the weekend to preserve their psychological condition.http://twitter.com/#!/kenearlys/status/27051536735 (http://twitter.com/#%21/kenearlys/status/27051536735)
robbie keane says sunday reports of bust-up with harry redknapp are "100% bull****"http://twitter.com/#!/kenearlys/status/27051644801 (http://twitter.com/#%21/kenearlys/status/27051644801)
ireland team unchanged except long/keogh for doyle, & fahey for lawrence who has a muscle problem - seems 90% likely long will starthttp://twitter.com/#!/kenearlys/status/27052305712 (http://twitter.com/#%21/kenearlys/status/27052305712)
trap waves away questions about performance v russia - "your jobs is analyse, critica, my jobs to predict, to decide before the game"Hadn't seen any reports of a bust up between Keane and Redknapp myself, anyone know what that's about?

[Dodge]

I'm being told now that Lawrence has a fitness test tomorrow. He starts if he passes it

[tetsujin1979]

confirmed on newstalk
Long to start, Lawrence to have fitness test tomorrow

[Fergie's Son]

I agree that Green can't start tomorrow. The reality, however, is that he will. As such we're in for a nervy match where we will be delighted for a draw.

[Noelys Guitar]

Only change is Long with Lawerence having a late fitness test but likely to start.

[paul_oshea]

I do now see where trap is going with this.

I admire his trust I must say, but trust can never be enough in this case.

[Noelys Guitar]

Maybe Green will score a diving header again as we go on and win 3-0.

[FarBeag]

We need to get through this tomorrow somehow. It does not matter how, we just have to. Whatever about achieving a win we cannot lose or we are doomed imo. Come the next qualifier in the new year hopefully we will have blooded in McCarthy, Duff and Andrews will have come back, he will have forgiven Andy Reid and Gibson will have more Man u games under his belt. We can then say bye bye to Paul Green. This guy is brutal . I don’t care how much effort he puts in it does not change this fact. James O Connor is a much better player than he is in fact many of the central midfielders in the LOI are better than him. The thoughts of him in the line up tomorrow puts shivers down my spine. I am not at all optimistic, hopefully Traps luck has not completely run out.

[Noelys Guitar]

The key tomorrow as ever is to take our chances. Send Dunne up early in the match for corners and free kicks. McGeady is getting closer to scoring a goal. Tomorrow would be an excellent time to start. Keane will get one or two clear chances and he has to take them in a game like this.

[IsMiseSean]

Send Dunne up early in the match for corners and free kicks.

I never understood sending Sledge up for corners and free kicks. I know he scored against Italy but he really isn't that good at attacking the ball in the air and he doesn't look very tall. Dunne and JOSH are better options.

[Sullivinho]

Send Dunne up early in the match for corners and free kicks.

Absolutely. Scored two against Bulgaria last campaign when the delivery was good. Their own defensive monster (Skrtel) will be absent.