View Full Version : Under 19's away for 10 days in Bulgaria
Cant believe the Ireland U19's are away for 10 days meaning we will be losing Paddy McElaney for 10 days away with the National Under 19's. Do you think this right towards the business end of our season. Do our clubs have any say whether they should go or Stay. I dont mind them going for an international match for a couple of days, but 10 days come on its too much not just for the player but the club who also has to pay their wages as well.
Spudulika
22/09/2010, 10:46 AM
Are they not playing in a qualifying tournament for the European Championships? They run them off in 2 group stages now. I could be wrong though.
Sam_Heggy
22/09/2010, 12:07 PM
Crazy alright, I remember talking about this earlier in the season when Ciaran Gallagher was looking like being a shoe in for the squad, he picked up a long term injury shortly after which ruled him out.
Big loss for the muckers if McEleney is going to be out for that long. What games does he miss?
Flexy
22/09/2010, 12:44 PM
Crazy alright, I remember talking about this earlier in the season when Ciaran Gallagher was looking like being a shoe in for the squad, he picked up a long term injury shortly after which ruled him out.
Big loss for the muckers if McEleney is going to be out for that long. What games does he miss?
He misses the Shels match at home Sammy
CSFShels
22/09/2010, 1:52 PM
Excellent news, with the likelihood of the keeper being suspended too.
Martinho II
22/09/2010, 7:32 PM
what week is that game scheduled? Our loan signing from Shams Craig Walsh is in that squad too but considering the way hes playin at the moment he wont be missed too much thats for sure!!
DeNiro
23/09/2010, 3:13 PM
Doolin appointed manager for U18s and U19s..........insanity
pineapple stu
23/09/2010, 4:33 PM
Suits me. :)
Charlie Darwin
24/09/2010, 2:13 AM
Surely grouping the games together like this is good for clubs because it limits the amount of time players are away overall?
pineapple stu
24/09/2010, 9:27 AM
I think that's ultimately the case, yeah. It's happened us a few times as well - Andy Boyle for the U-19s most recently I think. It's just the price of success, in my opinion.
Sam_Heggy
13/10/2010, 8:54 PM
Cant believe the Ireland U19's are away for 10 days meaning we will be losing Paddy McElaney for 10 days away with the National Under 19's. Do you think this right towards the business end of our season. Do our clubs have any say whether they should go or Stay. I dont mind them going for an international match for a couple of days, but 10 days come on its too much not just for the player but the club who also has to pay their wages as well.
Derry City 3-0 Shelbourne
72' - Goal - Derry City have sealed this game with another goal by Patrick McEleney. 3-0!!
And http://www.extratime.ie/fixtures/detail/12202/2/
How was this when the Under 19's only got back tonight? :confused:
passerrby
13/10/2010, 11:12 PM
maybe he was not selected ..great player massive potential
Alf Honn
13/10/2010, 11:18 PM
maybe he was not selected ..great player massive potential
Was pulled out by Derry City injured few days before squad left for Bulgaria. Some recovery...
Sam_Heggy
14/10/2010, 6:40 AM
Was pulled out by Derry City injured few days before squad left for Bulgaria. Some recovery...
Surely if he was withdrawn from international duty, yet didn't miss any DC games, there will have to be some form of punishment?
Does anyone know the ruling on this? Isn't it the same as senior international withdrawals?
Bray were missing a vital player, Harps missing a player, Longford a player. What was to stop us pulling them out of the squad as "injured"?
harps1954
14/10/2010, 9:08 AM
From the FAI Rule Book:
RULE 52. POWER TO DEAL WITH PLAYERS REFUSAL TO PLAY IN REPRESENTATIVE
MATCHES
Any player selected to play in any International or other match arranged by The Association and who without good
and sufficient cause refuses to comply with the arrangements of The Council for the playing of the match, or fails to
play in such match, may be adjudged by The Council to be guilty of misconduct, and such player, or any Club which
may be deemed to have encouraged such player to such misconduct, may be dealt with as The Council shall deem
appropriate.
osarusan
14/10/2010, 10:11 AM
Cooldog will surely take lumps out of McEleny. This is just the kind of situation he relishes.
harps1954
14/10/2010, 10:24 AM
From the FAI Participation Agreement 2010 Document (which every club would have signed). If this rule is applied, McEleney would technically have been suspended from playing for Derry City. If so, Shels will be awarded a 3-0 victory for last Saturday's game. BUT, Shelbourne would have to have made a complaint to the FAI.
19.19 Any Participant Club receiving permission to postpone such a fixture must not arrange a football related
activity for the day covered by the postponement. No player shall be allowed to play in a match two days
prior to the date of a League representative match without the permission of the League Director. A
fixture postponed under this Rule shall be arranged in accordance with the provisions of Rules 19.10 and
19.11 relating to postponed matches.
Any Participant Club refusing to release a player(s) selected for an International or Representative panel
under the jurisdiction of the FAI shall not be entitled to play such players(s) until a period of five (5)
calendar days has elapsed from the date of such fixture(s). Any selected player failing to join the panel shall
not be permitted to play for his Club for the same period. Call-ups of registered players by Associations
other than the FAI for International duty are governed by the regulations of FIFA.
Dodge
14/10/2010, 10:26 AM
So he didn't miss any games? I could understand if he missed the first one and recovered as t'd be a waster to bring him on his own out to Bulgaria but if he played all games for Derry, thats a different story
He played against Wexford the week before as well (on October 1st) so it does not look like he missed any games.
osarusan
14/10/2010, 10:37 AM
Are we sure he pulled out of the squad through injury? Is there evidence of that, apart from Alf Honn's post above?
According to the rule quoted above, a player failing to join an international panel may not play for his club for 5 calendar days - have Derry breached this?
harps1954
14/10/2010, 10:41 AM
Are we sure he pulled out of the squad through injury? Is there evidence of that, apart from Alf Honn's post above?
According to the rule quoted above, a player failing to join an international panel may not play for his club for 5 calendar days - have Derry breached this?
Here: http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=101297&catid=4&Itemid=12 from the FAI website.
osarusan
14/10/2010, 10:48 AM
Pulled out on Sunday the 3rd, and he played against Shels 6 days later. Is that extra day crucial?
EDIT: Actually the rule states that a player who pulls out of the squad can't play a fixture within 5 days of the international fixture, not within 5 days of the day they pull out of the squad.
So if the underage game was against Luxembourg on Thurday the 7th, he shouldn't have been able to play on Saturday the 9th. Is that right?
harps1954
14/10/2010, 11:01 AM
And he played against Shels 6 days later. Is that extra day crucial?
I wouldn't think so, as the under-19 international games were on the Thursday, Saturday and Tuesday. It would have been five days from the date of any of these games (probably starting with the Thursday game). So technically, he should not have played against Shels last week as it was within the five days of the first under-19 game.
Not sure anything will happen Derry, unless Shels (or anyone for that matter) made a complaint to the FAI. If they stick to this rule, Derry would be in trouble. However, has this ever happened before? I'm not sure. And, if so, what action (if any) did the FAI take?
It all depends on what Shelbourne decide to do (or Monaghan, Waterford, Limerick or Cork for that matter). Outside of that, it doesn't really matter to anyone else.
The FAI (http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=101297%3Adoolin-makes-changes-to-u19-squad&catid=4%3Aunder-19&Itemid=12) gave injury as the reason.
U19s played on the 7th, 9th and 12th. McEleney played for Derry on the 1st and 9th.
Buile Shuibhne
14/10/2010, 12:36 PM
Ollie Byrne would have been in there like a shot - creating mayhem.
In contrast - the current Shels Board of Management tend to keep a low profile on this sort of thing.
Not so sure they would lodge a complaint?
passerrby
14/10/2010, 12:37 PM
cant see Derry being that naive as to pull a stroke like this they must realise there is a possible sanction IF this happened
also dont think its up to any club to lodge any objection but for the league to act if there is any problem
VinnyDCFC
14/10/2010, 1:09 PM
From the FAI Rule Book:
Harps1954
Do you have a link for that quote you've used?
Thanks
harps1954
14/10/2010, 1:17 PM
Vinny, I don't have a link to the FAI Rulebook rule that I quoted - although I think it might be somewhere on the FAI website.
However, the link to the rules in the Participation Agreement is here: http://www.airtricityleague.com/index.php/about/press-office/2049-2010-participation-agreement
monsexile
14/10/2010, 1:34 PM
If this was a senior international match, Derry would be in trouble.
Sanction:
If a club refuses to release a player or neglects to do so despite the provisions
of this annexe, the FIFA Players’ Status Committee shall furthermore request
the association to which the club belongs to declare any match(es) in which
the player took part to have been lost by the club concerned. Any points thus
gained by the club in question shall be forfeited. Any match contested according
to the cup system shall be regarded as having been won by the opposing team,
irrespective of the score.
Source:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/01/27/64/30/regulationsstatusandtransfer2010_e.pdf
However, I have it on good authority that this does not apply to youth internationals.
FAI rule book: http://www.fai.ie/images/stories/pdf/FAI_Rule_Book_2009.pdf
RULE 54. POWER TO DEAL WITH PLAYERS REFUSAL TO PLAY IN REPRESENTATIVE
MATCHES
Any player selected to play in any International or other match arranged by The Association and who without good
and sufficient cause refuses to comply with the arrangements for the playing of the match, or fails to play in such
match, may be adjudged to be guilty of misconduct, and such player, or any Club which may be deemed to have
encouraged such player to such misconduct, may be dealt with as the Disciplinary Bodies shall deem appropriate.
harps1954
14/10/2010, 1:45 PM
If this was a senior international match, Derry would be in trouble.
Sanction:
If a club refuses to release a player or neglects to do so despite the provisions
of this annexe, the FIFA Players’ Status Committee shall furthermore request
the association to which the club belongs to declare any match(es) in which
the player took part to have been lost by the club concerned. Any points thus
gained by the club in question shall be forfeited. Any match contested according
to the cup system shall be regarded as having been won by the opposing team,
irrespective of the score.
Source:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/01/27/64/30/regulationsstatusandtransfer2010_e.pdf
However, I have it on good authority that this does not apply to youth internationals.
There's nothing in the participation agreement which states that the match has to be a senior International. See again the ruling below:
Any Participant Club refusing to release a player(s) selected for an International or Representative panel
under the jurisdiction of the FAI shall not be entitled to play such players(s) until a period of five (5)
calendar days has elapsed from the date of such fixture(s). Any selected player failing to join the panel shall
not be permitted to play for his Club for the same period. Call-ups of registered players by Associations
other than the FAI for International duty are governed by the regulations of FIFA.
There's nothing in the participation agreement which states that the match has to be a senior International. See again the ruling below:
Guys stop clutching at straws with this, it is only an Under 19 game, if it was an U21 or Senior international then maybe he should have stayed with the squad. At the end of the day who pays the guys wages Derry or the FAI, if the FAI have problems with this then go to UEFA as players should not be away from their clubs for 10days anyway to play in any youth tournament. At 18 yrs of age Derry is more important to him and the Ireland Under 19's. Remember matches had to be moved from Friday night because of the match in Dublin does that help our clubs no, so get over it and put it to bed
Whether its important or not to the player is immaterial. Derry CLEARLY brokes the rules here. You'd think the last couple of years would've thought them to be a bit less pigheaded
If he was that important, a quick call asking for his release from the international set up could've been made. I've no doubt the FAI would've been accomodating
Sam_Heggy
14/10/2010, 2:10 PM
Guys stop clutching at straws with this, it is only an Under 19 game, if it was an U21 or Senior international then maybe he should have stayed with the squad. At the end of the day who pays the guys wages Derry or the FAI, if the FAI have problems with this then go to UEFA as players should not be away from their clubs for 10days anyway to play in any youth tournament. At 18 yrs of age Derry is more important to him and the Ireland Under 19's. Remember matches had to be moved from Friday night because of the match in Dublin does that help our clubs no, so get over it and put it to bed
Why would an Under 19 game carry less significance than the Under 21's?
Are you 100% sure that playing for Derry City is more important to Pat McEleney than playing for his country? That's a pretty big statement to make on a players behalf.
Whether its important or not to the player is immaterial. Derry CLEARLY brokes the rules here. You'd think the last couple of years would've thought them to be a bit less pigheaded
If he was that important, a quick call asking for his release from the international set up could've been made. I've no doubt the FAI would've been accomodating
Dodge what rules have Derry broken with regards this. The player obviously felt it was more important to play for his club in such an important game than play for his country on this occassion. I ask you this, what would you have done if it was you. Myself personally Id put my club first as they are paying my wages every week
If he was deemed to be ineligible this rule applies:
RULE 86. INELIGIBILITY
1. If a player takes part in an official match despite being ineligible, his team shall be sanctioned by
forfeiting the match and paying a fine. A sanction may also be imposed on a player and/or the person in
charge of the team if they knew or ought to have known of the ineligibility.
2. If a player takes part in a friendly match despite being ineligible, his team shall be sanctioned by forfeiting
the match and paying a fine.
3. Unregistered Players and Suspended Players are deemed to be ineligible.
i.e. Shels get the points.
pineapple stu
14/10/2010, 3:15 PM
Dodge what rules have Derry broken with regards this.
It's been very clearly posted in the thread what rule they broke.
No harm to you, but you're taking "My club can do no wrong" to new heights here.
The player obviously felt it was more important to play for his club in such an important game than play for his country on this occassion. I ask you this, what would you have done if it was you. Myself personally Id put my club first as they are paying my wages every week
None of that matters.
Derry broke the FAI rules by playing him. Its a black and white case.
I don't care if they're punished or not, but to claim they didn't break the rules is bizarre
VinnyDCFC
14/10/2010, 3:42 PM
There's nothing in the participation agreement which states that the match has to be a senior International. See again the ruling below:
I'm trying to get my head around all of this but where did Derry City refuse to release a player?
Any Participant Club refusing to release a player(s) selected for an International or Representative panel under the jurisdiction of the FAI shall not be entitled to play such players(s) until a period of five (5) calendar days has elapsed from the date of such fixture(s). Any selected player failing to join the panel shall not be permitted to play for his Club for the same period
osarusan
14/10/2010, 3:47 PM
Dodge what rules have Derry broken with regards this. The player obviously felt it was more important to play for his club in such an important game than play for his country on this occassion. I ask you this, what would you have done if it was you. Myself personally Id put my club first as they are paying my wages every week
The thing is that it doesn't matter a damn what you think. It doesn't matter that Derry pay his wages, and it doesn't matter if he wanted to play for Derry instead of the underage team. What matters is if Derry broke the rules or not.
If they did (and it seems thay did), they should be punished. It really shouldn't be up to Shels to object though, but I think they'd be doing exactly the right thing if they did.
I'm trying to get my head around all of this but where did Derry City refuse to release a player?
Is there is a distinction made between refusing to release a player and telling the FAI a player can't go as he's injured? There may be, but my first reaction is that they're the same thing.
Dodge what rules have Derry broken with regards this. The player obviously felt it was more important to play for his club in such an important game than play for his country on this occassion. I ask you this, what would you have done if it was you. Myself personally Id put my club first as they are paying my wages every week
He should have been using the international games as a showcase for his talents really. Underage International games are packed with scouts form all over Europe, if he has ambitions of playing at a professional level then playing for Ireland should have been put first by himself.
Anyway, as Pineapple Stu as said, Rules have been broken by Derry over this, i don't want to see any action taken but accept that rules have been broken. Jesus just count yourself lucky that he didn't come back injured like Gary Shaw did.
harps1954
14/10/2010, 3:50 PM
I'm trying to get my head around all of this but where did Derry City refuse to release a player?
By Derry saying the player was injuried and pulling him out of the squad. Once they done that, they were saying the player wasn't fit to play in the under-19 game(s) which meant that if he wasn't fit to play for the under-19's, he shouldn't have been fit to play for Derry either (one of the under-19 games was on the same day as Derry played Shels). The last line of the rule says "Any selected player failing to join the panel shall not be permitted to play for his Club for the same period" - the player clearly played for his club during the period of the under-19 internationals.
So John Terry doesnt play for england on tuesday due to injury but bet your life he will be playing for chelsea on Saturday, are you telling me that the FA will stop him playing, dont think so. Will FAI stop kevin doyle from playing for Wolves this weekend dont think so, lads its an Under 19 international big tickle, McEleney wanted to play for his club in one of the most important matches of the year instead of playing for the Under 19's. He would rather try and help the club gain promotion to the premier division than play for Ireland
harps1954
14/10/2010, 4:03 PM
So John Terry doesnt play for england on tuesday due to injury but bet your life he will be playing for chelsea on Saturday, are you telling me that the FA will stop him playing, dont think so. Will FAI stop kevin doyle from playing for Wolves this weekend dont think so, lads its an Under 19 international big tickle, McEleney wanted to play for his club in one of the most important matches of the year instead of playing for the Under 19's. He would rather try and help the club gain promotion to the premier division than play for Ireland
But we're not talking about Chelsea, Wolves or the English FA here. We are talking about the FAI Participation Agreement that Derry City and the other 21 clubs signed up to. Derry broke one of these rules. Simple as. If Derry didn't want the player playing, why didn't they seek to release him from the squad instead of pulling him out because of injury. It has happened with squads in the past. Derry tried to pull a fast one and might well have been caught.
Charlie Darwin
14/10/2010, 4:04 PM
So John Terry doesnt play for england on tuesday due to injury but bet your life he will be playing for chelsea on Saturday, are you telling me that the FA will stop him playing, dont think so. Will FAI stop kevin doyle from playing for Wolves this weekend dont think so, lads its an Under 19 international big tickle, McEleney wanted to play for his club in one of the most important matches of the year instead of playing for the Under 19's. He would rather try and help the club gain promotion to the premier division than play for Ireland
The difference is Premier League games don't run concurrently with internationals. Derry pulled their player out of a squad on the premise that he was injured and then played him between two of the international fixtures.
And Kevin Doyle would need a miracle to appear for Wolves this weekend.
passerrby
14/10/2010, 4:14 PM
have the league or derry issued any statement so far. expect copous amounts of fudge to be issued as they want derry back up asap.
Charlie Darwin
14/10/2010, 4:27 PM
I suspect both sides will just keep quiet and it'll blow over.
CSFShels
14/10/2010, 4:37 PM
There is no way we should keep quiet on this. The rules are clearly stated there, and they state he was ineligible. I have my doubts as to whether anything will happen, but there seems to be no grey area here. The rules have been clearly stated and clearly broken. What case could possibly be made in Derry's favour?
osarusan
14/10/2010, 4:43 PM
There is no way we should keep quiet on this. The rules are clearly stated there, and they state he was ineligible. I have my doubts as to whether anything will happen, but there seems to be no grey area here. The rules have been clearly stated and clearly broken. What case could possibly be made in Derry's favour?
You should object and ask the FAI to check it out. Before doing so, I'd find as much evidence as you can on the net and then print it all off in case the internet pages are mysteriously edited / deleted.
CSFShels
14/10/2010, 5:04 PM
I'm definitely interested to see if Derry fans feel they've a leg to stand on here. There is a report saying Patrick McEleney has withdrawn from the squad due to injury so theres no room for dispute there, there is a rule in the participation agreement stating that a player is ineligible for any games occurring 5 days after the games withdrawn from, McEleney played the day after, scoring 2 goals. There is a LOI precedent set, where a club who field ineligible player have the result given against them as a 3-0 defeat.
Can anyone make any legitimate case in Derry's favour here?
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