Under 19's away for 10 days in Bulgaria [Archive] - Page 2

Flexy

14/10/2010, 5:56 PM

I'm definitely interested to see if Derry fans feel they've a leg to stand on here. There is a report saying Patrick McEleney has withdrawn from the squad due to injury so theres no room for dispute there, there is a rule in the participation agreement stating that a player is ineligible for any games occurring 5 days after the games withdrawn from, McEleney played the day after, scoring 2 goals. There is a LOI precedent set, where a club who field ineligible player have the result given against them as a 3-0 defeat.

Can anyone make any legitimate case in Derry's favour here?
Sour grapes

Does the FAI team doctor not have to assess if the player if hes being pulled out by injury by the club, or is this another rule the FAI make up themselves. If the player doesnt want to play then its his choice.

Aaron

14/10/2010, 5:58 PM

Sour grapes

Does the FAI team doctor not have to assess if the player if hes being pulled out by injury by the club, or is this another rule the FAI make up themselves. If the player doesnt want to play then its his choice.

I wouldnt be so confident in all this because I have heard a rumour we have been docked 3 points. May just be a Derry rumour though

dfx-

14/10/2010, 6:05 PM

What effect would it have on the table?

SwanVsDalton

14/10/2010, 6:23 PM

There is a LOI precedent set, where a club who field ineligible player have the result given against them as a 3-0 defeat.

Is there a precedent in the LOI for this particular rule being breached? Just wondering.

Can anyone make any legitimate case in Derry's favour here?

He withdrew from the squad, via Lourdes, and miraculously recovered.

What effect would it have on the table?

Colossal. If the result was overturned in Shels' favour it would drop Derry from a point clear at the top to trailing Mons by two, and push Shels up third just a point behind Derry. The resultant furore would likely KO our chances in the run-in too.

cant see Derry being that naive as to pull a stroke like this

Enjoy your pleasant vacation on the moon last season? We're in the first division for a reason you know...

dfx-

14/10/2010, 6:33 PM

And do we get our annual asterisk?

SwanVsDalton

14/10/2010, 6:37 PM

And do we get our annual asterisk?

If the result was just overturned, and awarded to Shels 3-0, would that require an asterisk? If we were deducted I suppose we would certainly be in line for the annual Brucey un-bonus.

Charlie Darwin

14/10/2010, 7:04 PM

The difference is Premier League games don't run concurrently with internationals. Derry pulled their player out of a squad on the premise that he was injured and then played him between two of the international fixtures.

And Kevin Doyle would need a miracle to appear for Wolves this weekend.
I guess miracles do happen: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1014/wolves_doylek_ireland.html

SwanVsDalton

14/10/2010, 7:06 PM

I guess miracles do happen: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1014/wolves_doylek_ireland.html

McEleney withdrew from the squad, via Lourdes, and miraculously recovered.

Case closed, Lionel Hutz style.

pineapple stu

14/10/2010, 7:13 PM

Can anyone make any legitimate case in Derry's favour here?
Their fax machine was broken so they didn't get a copy of the participation agreement?

I think a more pertinent questin is whether there's any way DCFC can come out of this looking good. It does look like a clear, pre-meditated case of deliberate cheating.

Also, Wexford beat Salthill earlier in the season, but the result was changed to 3-0 Salthill cos Wexford fielded a banger. So yes, there's a precedent for the forfeit, and no, this won't break the asterisk duck - there either is one at the moment or there isn't, but that won't change cos of this.

SwanVsDalton

14/10/2010, 7:22 PM

I think a more pertinent questin is whether there's any way DCFC can come out of this looking good. It does look like a clear, pre-meditated case of deliberate cheating.

Agreed, it doesn't look good - but until there's some comment on it from somewhere other than this board, I'll hold fire on the melodrama. Could be more to it than anyone knows.

Also, Wexford beat Salthill earlier in the season, but the result was changed to 3-0 Salthill cos Wexford fielded a banger. So yes, there's a precedent for the forfeit, and no, this won't break the asterisk duck - there either is one at the moment or there isn't, but that won't change cos of this.

If the result wasn't overturned, and we were simply deducted points, would that not finally satiate the asterisk junkies?

Charlie Darwin

14/10/2010, 8:32 PM

I believe an asterisk is only warranted when the points column doesn't match up with the win, loss and draw ones. A result being reversed/walkover wouldn't affect that so it wouldn't show an asterisk.

I don't see why points would be deducted without the result being overturned though. Shels were the sinned against party (allegedly).

Sam_Heggy

14/10/2010, 8:35 PM

From muckerchat:

I think we have a hearing with the fai Monday. Not good news from what I have been told. Fingers crossed though!

VinnyDCFC

14/10/2010, 8:57 PM

From muckerchat:

This isn't true

No case to answer is what I'm hearing

CSFShels

14/10/2010, 9:37 PM

Sour grapes

Does the FAI team doctor not have to assess if the player if hes being pulled out by injury by the club, or is this another rule the FAI make up themselves. If the player doesnt want to play then its his choice.
Sour grapes? What are you talking about? Everyone took the defeat as it was, now it appears the defeat was not as fair and honest as it was assumed to have been. We're perfectly entitled to feel this way. Whether you get away with or not, it does seem as if you've cheated.

The Lilywhites

14/10/2010, 11:28 PM

VinnyDCFC

14/10/2010, 11:39 PM

Sour grapes? What are you talking about? Everyone took the defeat as it was, now it appears the defeat was not as fair and honest as it was assumed to have been. We're perfectly entitled to feel this way. Whether you get away with or not, it does seem as if you've cheated.

Easy there, that's a very dodgy allegation to make

CSFShels

14/10/2010, 11:43 PM

Easy there, that's a very dodgy allegation to make
Feel free to file a lawsuit if you do so desire.

VinnyDCFC

14/10/2010, 11:53 PM

Feel free to file a lawsuit if you do so desire.

Please show the evidence that DCFC cheated, other than knee jerk reactions to what others have posted here and over on Shelsweb

PS: I am in no position to sue anybody

VinnyDCFC

15/10/2010, 12:21 AM

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/doolin-hit-by-injury-crisis-2355185.html

Tuesday September 28 2010

RECENTLY appointed Ireland U-18 and U-19 manager Paul Doolin has had to make five changes to his Airtricity League representative U-23 squad ahead of their International Challenge Trophy clash with Estonia tonight (9.0) in Tallinn, writes Neil Ahern.

Paul Skinner (Drogheda United), Paul Corry (UCD), Ross Gaynor (Dundalk), David McMillan (UCD) and Shane Duggan (Cork City Foras Co-op) have all been added to the 18-man squad in place of Stephen O'Donnell, Ronan Finn, Karl Sheppard, Jake Kelly and Darren Quigley, who all withdrew through injury.

RTE match report:

Friday, 1 October 2010

Dundalk 3-0 Galway United

Galway United: 1 Darragh Geraghty; 15 Tom King (19 Ger Cheevers, 86 mins), 20 Paul Sinnott, 14 Rhys Mennell, 17 Stephen Walsh; 7 Johnathon Keane; 16 Gary Curran, 8 Stephen O'Donnell, 11 Derek O'Brien; 9 Jason Molloy (12 Evan Preston Kelly, 65 mins), 10 Karl Sheppard.

Charlie Darwin

15/10/2010, 12:43 AM

Didn't Galway United withdraw Stephen O'Donnell and Karl Sheppard from the U23 squad for the trip to Estonia and they both played against Dundalk three days later? Galway allowed Seamus Conneely to travel to Estonia but he was suspended for the Dundalk game anyway.
The five day stipulation seems excessive to me - it seems perfectly reasonable that a player could recover in 3 days - but they are still two quite different cases.

Galway withdrew their players from a match on 28/9 and played them on 1/10, 3 days after their (last) scheduled international.

Derry withdrew their player from matches on 7/10, 9/10 and 12/10 and played him on 9/10, 3 days before his last scheduled international.

VinnyDCFC

15/10/2010, 12:56 AM

played him on 6/10

Which game was this?

Charlie Darwin

15/10/2010, 12:59 AM

Sorry, I was convinced it was the 6th for some reason.

The Lilywhites

15/10/2010, 4:21 AM

The five day stipulation seems excessive to me - it seems perfectly reasonable that a player could recover in 3 days - but they are still two quite different cases.

Galway withdrew their players from a match on 28/9 and played them on 1/10, 3 days after their (last) scheduled international.

Derry withdrew their player from matches on 7/10, 9/10 and 12/10 and played him on 9/10, 3 days before his last scheduled international.

They're not different.

Karl Sheppard played for Galway against Shamrock Rovers on 24/9, four days before the game in Estonia, and against Dundalk on 1/10, three days after Estonia. Doesn't sound like much of an injury to me.

Stephen O'Donnell was suspended for that game against Rovers. I have no doubt that he otherwise would have started in Tallaght too. He played the full 90 minutes the previous week against Rovers in the Cup and the full 90 minutes against Dundalk. Again, doesn't sound like he's too injured.

Also the U23 squad left for Estonia on 25/9 so how can Sheppard be fit for games on 10/9, 13/9, 17/9, 24/9, 1/10 and 9/10 (I've only checked the last six games) and not be fit and available for a trip to Estonia on 25/9 for a game on 28/9?

If Derry are guilty then so are Galway.

Derry withdrew McEleney from the trip which the squad left for on 2/10 and he played in Wexford on 1/10, as well as the week before against Mervue on 24/9. So yes it sounds like another bull**** story that he was injured. But if Derry said he was injured then you can't make him travel in the hope that he'll be fit to play a final group game (which in the end was a nothing game) ten days later.

The Galway case is exactly the same and there has been no word of sanctions against them. I'm also sure this has happened previously, it was just never highlighted. This story has gathered legs after a post here by a Finn Harps fan and now clutching-at-straws Shelbourne and Monaghan fans have jumped on the bandwagon to try to gain an advantage by default.

Nothing story.

Charlie Darwin

15/10/2010, 4:35 AM

They are clearly and demonstrably different.

Mr A

15/10/2010, 8:49 AM

SO the question now is- why would any club ever release a player for Ireland duty unless they felt like it?

pineapple stu

15/10/2010, 8:58 AM

Nothing story.
It's clearly not a nothing story. If there's a rule which is being flagrantly flaunted, why have the rule? If you have some clubs playing by the rules and releasing players for international duty half a continent away four days before a league game, and other clubs saying "feck that", then you've clearly got something which needs to be addressed.

Candystripe

15/10/2010, 9:33 AM

Derry City released him for the games so I hear but it was Patrick McEleney himself who then pulled out when he picked up an injury.

No case to answer and no case will be taken.

It happens in every international squad apparently.

If the F.A.I. didn't send a doctor to examine him then there can be no case to answer, thats what I'm hearing from a very good source!

Mr A

15/10/2010, 9:41 AM

http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/sport/City-not-to-face-FAI.6583038.jp

No case according to that.

Candystripe

15/10/2010, 9:48 AM

Here is the statement given to the press this morning.

Mr A posted the link above.

15 October 2010
By KEVIN McLAUGHLIN
THE Football Association of Ireland (FAI) have confirmed they will not be taking any action towards Derry City.
It had been claimed that the Candystripes could be deducted three points after they fielded midfielder Patrick McEleney during last week's victory over Shelbourne.

The gifted midfielder pulled out of Paul Doolin's Republic of Ireland's Under 19 squad, which played Bulgaria, with an ankle problem, however the 18-year-old played a major role in City's win against Shels last Saturday.

It's believed the Dubliners made an enquiry to the FAI about McEleney's elegibility.

However a statement from the FAI insisted Stephen Kenny's side don't have a case to answer and no further action will be taken.

"The player (Patrick McEleney) was called into the Republic of Ireland Under-19 squad but contacted management to inform them that he was injured.

"As a result, he was withdrawn from the squad. By the time he had recovered from the injury he was no longer required to fulfil his international duties and so he was eligible to play for Derry City.

"Having established the facts with the assistance of the FAI International and Disciplinary Departments, we are satisfied that there is no action to be taken in relation to this matter."

Page 1 of 1

Last Updated: 15 October 2010 10:28 AM
Source: Londonderry Sentinel
Location: Waterside

pineapple stu

15/10/2010, 9:57 AM

So can we clarify when someone can fall foul of the rule quoted earlier?

Buile Shuibhne

15/10/2010, 10:05 AM

By the time he had recovered from the injury he was no longer required to fulfil his international duties and so he was eligible to play for Derry City.

It must be discretionary.

They (the FAI) can decide later whether a player is/was required or not.

pineapple stu

15/10/2010, 10:36 AM

Just as a general mod point - don't dismiss people's posts by groundlessly calling the posters pathetic. That's just trolling. If you have a valid point, you should be able to make it without resorting to personal abuse.

Candystripe

15/10/2010, 10:47 AM

I'm guessing that the squad left on Sunday and it was six days later before he played in the Shels game.

If he recovered on the Tues I doubt they would have flew him over anyway but AFAIK he had to have a late fitness test before the game which was played on the Sat.If the game had of been on the Friday it may have been a whole lot different as that fell with-in the five day rule when he pulled out.

Looks like nothing to see here.

osarusan

15/10/2010, 10:49 AM

The five-day rule is not from the day he pulls out, but from the date of the international game a player is selected for. That game was on the 7th, yet he played on the 9th.

Any Participant Club refusing to release a player(s) selected for an International or Representative panel
under the jurisdiction of the FAI shall not be entitled to play such players(s) until a period of five (5)
calendar days has elapsed from the date of such fixture(s). Any selected player failing to join the panel shall
not be permitted to play for his Club for the same period. Call-ups of registered players by Associations
other than the FAI for International duty are governed by the regulations of FIFA.

Some other poster mentioned that as he had not been checked by an FAI doctor, there was no case to answer. That, while still smelling slightly of bullsh!t, seems a more likely reason.

Derry

15/10/2010, 11:33 AM

Well you can close the thread now, as the FAI have said,

DERRY CITY HAVE NO CASE TO ANSWER,

Shedendinvisibl

15/10/2010, 12:33 PM

Well you can close the thread now, as the FAI have said,

DERRY CITY HAVE NO CASE TO ANSWER,

Which means that the FAI can't be arsed sorting this out properly and by stonewalling it then are hoping it will be forgotten about within a day or so. I hope that Monaghan Utd or Shels take this further; a first day law student would obtain a judgement in the Law Courts over this fudge.

nzamcdza

15/10/2010, 12:42 PM

Paddy Mc faked an injury pulled out of the ROI squad and was then MOTM when we hammered Shels.

Turns out that there is something dodgy about this and we have the harps and shels fans up in arms.

FAI state no case to answer.

What a great week! :)

Enjoy the first division again next year lads!!

Mr A

15/10/2010, 12:48 PM

Paddy Mc faked an injury pulled out of the ROI squad and was then MOTM when we hammered Shels.

Turns out that there is something dodgy about this and we have the harps and shels fans up in arms.

At least you're honest.

Derry Journal took this issue seriously: http://www.derryjournal.com/derry/Derry-face-points-deduction.6583196.jp I guess they published before the FAI statement.

passerrby

15/10/2010, 12:52 PM

SwanVsDalton

15/10/2010, 12:59 PM

Shedendinvisibl

15/10/2010, 1:16 PM

We certainly seemed to have away with it. I'd certainly like to know how though - does this mean it's a rule the FAI just don't enforce or can't enforce? Either way seems to be another example of FAI rule ambiguity which can only lead to disaster.

It's easily enforced, though. If you are called up for international duty and cry off for whatever reason then all they need do is instruct a club not to play the relevant player until x date. While it's a loss that Derry would have done without said player for a vital game, it's also unfair to Shels that a player that wasn't supposed to be available to play did in fact line out; the fact that he made an impact on the game shows up the law to be an ass unless it's applied correctly or fairly.

SwanVsDalton

15/10/2010, 1:29 PM

It's easily enforced, though. If you are called up for international duty and cry off for whatever reason then all they need do is instruct a club not to play the relevant player until x date. While it's a loss that Derry would have done without said player for a vital game, it's also unfair to Shels that a player that wasn't supposed to be available to play did in fact line out; the fact that he made an impact on the game shows up the law to be an ass unless it's applied correctly or fairly.

Sure the rule can be enforced in that respect fairly easily, but why hasn't it? Someone mentioned he may have needed to be checked out by in FAI doc, so, what I meant was, can they not be bothered to make sure a doctor checks out any possible injury withdrawal? Is it too much hassle? Did they not consider this when they drew up the rule?

Also surely something like this has happened before in the league - the FAI dismissal makes it seem like this is kinda of transgression happens occasionally (seems a bit quick to let Derry off the hook even for them...).

Dodge

15/10/2010, 1:33 PM

Flexy

15/10/2010, 1:34 PM

I dont think derry did to much wrong just tried to protect their interests and got away with it. the league on the other hand has been sadly lacking in leadership, moral backbone and honesty...... which is what one has come to expect.
Guys these Under 19 matches are pointless having players away for 10 days isnt right. You dont see Under 21's or Senior teams or even U23's away for 10 days at a time playing mid season mini tournaments. We the fans pay good money to watch the best players in our league not to be away for 10 days playing for Ireland.

Dodge

15/10/2010, 1:42 PM

Guys these Under 19 matches are pointless having players away for 10 days isnt right. You dont see Under 21's or Senior teams or even U23's away for 10 days at a time playing mid season mini tournaments. We the fans pay good money to watch the best players in our league not to be away for 10 days playing for Ireland.

They're not pointless. just becausee you don't want to lose a player for 2 games.

And the reason they're away for 10 days is to CUT DOWN the amount of time they're away from their clubs. 3 games in a 6/7 day period is far more preferabel than going missing for 5/6 times instead (as they'd have to be home and away then...)

Oh and if you want pay good money for the "best players in the league", you're in the wrong decision. Stop being such a dramaqueen

pineapple stu

15/10/2010, 1:43 PM

Flexy, it's been pointed out to you already that the number of scouts at these matches alone renders them not pointless.

Can you please read what other people have to say before coming in with blind defence of your club?

Sam_Heggy

15/10/2010, 2:08 PM

Don't worry lads, Derry are 100% innocent as usual and all this is all just a made up story by us bitter Harps fans.

Sorry for inconvenience..............

Roo69

15/10/2010, 2:13 PM

FAI state no case to answer.

Ireland did fairly well in these games from what I've hear, i reckon if they had of lost a few games the FAI would look at it completely differently.

Anyway, its over and done with now, no point in continuing this thread as the FAI have said Derry have done nothing wrong (even though they have)

SwanVsDalton

15/10/2010, 2:28 PM

I'd imagine its a fairly standard rule across all European leagues.

I'd also assume that the FAI didn't think they needed to put in a rule about their own docter. Thinking that clubs would want their players to be part of the FAI teams.

Naive maybe, but there are/were loads of "good faith" type rules/laws in the league throughout the last 20 years. Shels battered a fair few of them in court

In general clubs would want players to be involved, but I'd say most fans would feel a bit aggrieved at losing a key player for a prolonged period of time during a crucial run-in (not condoning btw).

Given it's fairly likely a club may not want a player to go it would surely require some addendum to enforce the rule, such as doctor or whatever? Good faith is one thing, but there doesn't seem to be a point in the rule if players/clubs can transgress with impunity.

Reminds me of the Ferrari team orders controversy a few months back, trying to exploit a loop hole by putting the onus on team member. Someone's mentioned the fact City released McEleney, but he withdrew himself - does that somehow avoid contravening the rule?

I dunno, whole thing's muddier than Tolka after a thunderstorm.