Welsh clubs in trouble?

[eoinh]

Plus sam hammam is sticking is nose in. see here (http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0600soccer/0200news/tm_objectid=14192600&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=the-lot-of-eu-are-out-name_page.html)

[pete]

Hammam will doubtless watch developments with interest. He wants the league's 17 clubs to change their rules and enable Cardiff and co to push for European spots by playing second teams in the Welsh Premier.

Ha. Some chance i'd say. Can't really have it both ways.

[SÓC]

As a Cardiff fan I'd be against this. Just Sam looking for some way to try and reduce the huge debt he as built up, and free money for a wonderful stadium that he's trying to build which will never happen anyway.

Uefa most likely wont allow it anyway.

[Plastic Paddy]

A slight digression, I know, but I expect Dermot Desmond at Celtic to watch developments with Hammam's proposal closely. If SH succeeds, then expect DD to make a renewed attempt to obtain English Premiership status for Celtic on the basis that we can keep a second-string XI in the SPL. :(

:ball: PP

[Éanna]

Anyone know why Cardiff, Wrexham and Swansea were allowed played in England in the first place? Always wondered.

[SÓC]

Anyone know why Cardiff, Wrexham and Swansea were allowed played in England in the first place? Always wondered.

In the past England and Wales have been treated as pretty much one country, even now the official Labour Poilicy refers to Wales as a region not a country. It was not uncommon for there to be joint teams for them both.

Sure in Cricket its the England and Wales Cricket Board,shortened to the ECB, the team is called England and they have a few Welsh players on it.

The big teams in Wales joined the English leagues, (Cardiff even won the FA Cup in 1927) long before FIFA and UEFA were set up afaik. Just stayed that way then, even though UEFA/FIFA wouldnt allow a team to do it today.

[eoinh]

Although Liechtenstein clubs play in the swiss leagues.

Vaduz have reached the swiss second division.

[liamon]

In the past England and Wales have been treated as pretty much one country, even now the official Labour Poilicy refers to Wales as a region not a country. It .
Is Wales a country? I work with a Welsh girl and a few scots and they always take hte p*ss out of her country, saying that it's a prinipality, not a country. Scotland, on the other hand is viewed as a country, for some reason.
(Not sure what the difference is or how accurate this info is, but hey, what the hell, it gets teh Welsh girl annoyed :p )

[Dodge]

Welsh Assembly Home page (http://www.wales.gov.uk/index.htm)

Scottish Parliament home page (http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/)

I presume the fact that's one is called an assembly and one is called a parliament is the basis for the slagging. Welsh nationalism isn't as fevered as Scottish in my experiences of the publics there. Not saying those actively pursuing independence aren't as vigirous. just saying that amongst the general public, its more widepsread in Scotland

[eoinh]

Although when to comes to things like keeping their culture, language and heritage alive the welsh seem way ahead of the scots.

The welsh language is very strong - you cant say the same for scots gaeilge

[Plastic Paddy]

Welsh Assembly Home page (http://www.wales.gov.uk/index.htm)

Scottish Parliament home page (http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/)

I presume the fact that's one is called an assembly and one is called a parliament is the basis for the slagging. Welsh nationalism isn't as fevered as Scottish in my experiences of the publics there. Not saying those actively pursuing independence aren't as vigirous. just saying that amongst the general public, its more widepsread in Scotland

Well, here goes. Wales was annexed to England in 1536 and in return was forced to adopt English law, system of government and, progressively culminating with the spread of the Industrial Revolution from the mid-18th century, language (although with the passing of the Welsh Language Act in 1993, the indigenous tongue has made a strong comeback).

The crown of Scotland was united (note the crucial difference) with England in 1707 and the Scottish parliament dissolved. However, Scotland retained its own legal system, an important differential in securing the re-establishment of its parliament in 2000.

As for why the pull of Scottish nationalism seems stronger than its Welsh counterpart? Relations between north and south Wales aren't strong, natural lines of communication look east to England rather than north-south within Wales, Scotland is more self-enclosed (although with string links to the north of Ireland)... I could go on. There's a PhD and more in there.

:) PP

[SÓC]

To be fair the reasons for Wales having an Assembly and not a parliament are all political as opposed to them being/not being a Country.

The Labour Party needs the Welsh MPs (there are no Tory MPs from Wales and only one from Scotland). When they gave the Scots their parliament they had to reduce the amount of Scottish MPs in Westminister. Because Wales only got an Assembly there wasnt as much of a reduction. Labour would have taken too much of a hit from it seeing as they are very strong in Wales. All about to change with the Richards Report though.

I'd agree though Welsh Nationalism aint as strong as Scottish (well at least to the extent that we understand Nationalism).

*edit*

The poor Welsh dont even get repersentation on the Union Flag, whilst Ireland does

[Dodge]

Fair play SOC. Didn't want ot get into it in detail but there you go...

Amate of mine who's VERY interested in nationalist causes lived in Cardiff for a bit. He gopt talking to some bloke in a bar there who was considering setting up a Welsh terrorist group. My mate says he was the strangest bloke he's ever met.

[eoinh]

Was there ever a welsh terrorist group? :confused:


I remember the SNLA from Scotland.

[SÓC]

There was the Free Welsh Army but Im not sure could you class them as terrorists.

A few holiday homes belonging to English people were burned down in the 60's.

[WeAreRovers]

I'd agree though Welsh Nationalism aint as strong as Scottish (well at least to the extent that we understand Nationalism).


It's getting stronger though, as you'll have seen yourself in Cardiff. The cross of St David is back in vogue after hundreds of years in oblivion.

Lots of people I know in Cardiff define themselves as "Welsh not British" yet their parent's generation wouldn't have. The Labour Party's iron grip on Wales has historically been to blame for this but they made a rod for their own backs when they created the assembly.

It's actually quite invigorating in Cardiff to see Welsh nationalism on the rise, almost like the former Eastern Bloc countries after the fall of Communism. (Not exactly, but you now what I mean. ;) )

KOH

[Dodge]

Was there ever a welsh terrorist group? :confused:


This guy was just a crackpot, believe me...

[brendy_éire]

Lots of people I know in Cardiff define themselves as "Welsh not British" yet their parent's generation wouldn't have. The Labour Party's iron grip on Wales has historically been to blame for this but they made a rod for their own backs when they created the assembly.

The Welsh are still very far 'behind' in terms of nationalism. Just over 50% of them voted for a Welsh Assembly. (Take what you want from that figure. I think devolution is a sell-out, half measure meself) Many of them are happy to stay in the UK.
There's a fair difference between the north and south it seems. The north is more nationalistic, more people speak Welsh, are more interested in the culture, etc. Was in Wales last summer, nice to see the Welsh flags out, but and the time they had a Union Jack up along with it. :mad:
As for the Welsh Assemly, it is little more than a talking shop. It was given no legislative power, it can only amend legislation sent from Westminster. It hasn't given Wales much in terms of real control over it's own affairs.

[Plastic Paddy]

The Welsh are still very far 'behind' in terms of nationalism. Just over 50% of them voted for a Welsh Assembly. (Take what you want from that figure. I think devolution is a sell-out, half measure meself) Many of them are happy to stay in the UK.

Not quite, Brendy. 51% voted for an assembly from a 50% turnout, or put another way, 25.5% of the electorate voted in favour. I think SÓC was pretty close in his assessment. It also had to do with making sure that John Prescott's regionalist agenda, and with it the devolution of power to traditional Labour heartlands, wasn't railroaded before the Conservatives could rebuild their power base. Maybe that's a wee bit too much detail.

:) PP

[SÓC]

As WAR has said its on the rise but there are just so many Anlo-Welsh living there its quite hard for Nationalist to have a say. The St. Davids Day Parade in Cardiff only had about 90 in it. Paddys Day parade over there was about 10 times that.

Although I saw a good few Welsh, Not British Car stickers.

They picked Beaven, founder of the British National Health Service, over Gwldar, (spelling?) the Welsh Braveheart, as the greatest Welsh man ever in a TV poll a few months ago.

Actually PP do you have any idea if the Richards Commission report is out yet, need it for a project but I cant find it anywhere online.

[Plastic Paddy]

It was published at the end of March. Here you go SÓC:

http://www.richardcommission.gov.uk/content/template.asp?ID=/content/finalreport/index-e.asp

No huge suprises, to be honest. Richard is looking for increased powers, including the power to make primary legislation á la Scotland and also at precepting.

My day job is in local government as a policy specialist, so this kind of thing is right up my street. If I can be of any use to you in your project, just PM me and I'll be happy to help.

:) PP

[parnell ranger]

Was there ever a welsh terrorist group? :confused:


I remember the SNLA from Scotland.


The Cardiff City hooligan element come close :)

[Paddy Ramone]

Fair play SOC. Didn't want ot get into it in detail but there you go...

Amate of mine who's VERY interested in nationalist causes lived in Cardiff for a bit. He gopt talking to some bloke in a bar there who was considering setting up a Welsh terrorist group. My mate says he was the strangest bloke he's ever met.

There were Welsh terrorist groups called the Sons of Glyndwr and the Workers Army of the Welsh Republic who set fire to English holiday homes. The Provisional IRA bought arms of Welsh terrorists back in the 60's.

The Welsh nationalists have a stronger affinity with the Bretons and Cornish than the Irish and sympathise with independence movements in those countries. The Irish are closer to the Manx and the Scottish.

[Paddy Ramone]

Although when to comes to things like keeping their culture, language and heritage alive the welsh seem way ahead of the scots.

The welsh language is very strong - you cant say the same for scots gaeilge

There are more Scots Gaelic native speakers than Irish native speakers. Lallans or Scots which some say is a dialect of English and others say is a language is very strong in Scotland.

[pete]

The Welsh would never leave the UK as would be bankrupt overnight. On the otherhand if the Scots could keep their north sea oil money they'd probably be able to balance the books.

[Paddy Ramone]

While Welsh nationlism is weak, they have to be admired for preserving their language which is in a much more stronger position than Irish. I think Irish people should ask themselves the question what's the point of independence if we lose our language and identity and become just like the 51st state of the US.

[Plastic Paddy]

While Welsh nationlism is weak, they have to be admired for preserving their language which is in a much more stronger position than Irish. I think Irish people should ask themselves the question what's the point of independence if we lose our language and identity and become just like the 51st state of the US.

In fairness, legislation has upheld the status of the Welsh language in schools, etc., since 1993. AFAIK, it wasn't until the passing of the Official Languages Act last year that any such statute existed in the 26 counties. Nothing as yet exists for the other six.

:) PP

[eoinh]

While Welsh nationlism is weak, they have to be admired for preserving their language which is in a much more stronger position than Irish. I think Irish people should ask themselves the question what's the point of independence if we lose our language and identity and become just like the 51st state of the US.


Im average intelligence i would say yet i cant speak a word of Irish except for a few sayings. Why is this?

Well if youre ramming Peig down the throats of Children or the only documentary on TV that you see in Irish is "Hands" then you have your answer.

Irish should have been dealing with the "now" subjects. because it dealt with historical subjects its remained historical. It will never recover now i would very cofidently predict. Its a pity.

Its a bit embarrising when you go abroad that i cant speak my own language.

[Paddy Ramone]

Irish should have been dealing with the "now" subjects. because it dealt with historical subjects its remained historical. It will never recover now i would very cofidently predict. Its a pity.


Yes, it should be more relevant. I think it would also be good if children were thought the meanings of their surnames and place names which are mainly Gaelic in origin. Like the Irish origin of Riordan is little royal bard. I think it obvious that it meant that from the old Irish spelling which had bhard in it but not with the modern spelling.

[Plastic Paddy]

I think it would also be good if children were thought the meanings of their surnames.

On second thoughts, sometimes it's not a good thing. I'm the son of a black dog as Gaelige. :eek:

;) PP

[eoinh]

Michael McDowell - McDowell means "son of the Black Foreigner". Im going to vote no in the referendum but if it passes i reckon we should deport him.

[Paddy Ramone]

Michael McDowell - McDowell means "son of the Black Foreigner". Im going to vote no in the referendum but if it passes i reckon we should deport him.

I've read that black foreigners was what the Irish called the Danes to distinguish them the Norse. While the Danes aren't as blonde as the Norweigans, they're not really that dark and are fairer than the Irish. :confused:

Irish people with relatively dark complexions are called the Black Irish in America. I've heard that the first people on the Ireland were related to the Basques and even the Moors in Morocco.

[sadloserkid]

Anyone know why Cardiff, Wrexham and Swansea were allowed played in England in the first place?

No Welsh league until very recently. I always presumed that was why to be honest... :confused:

[Plastic Paddy]

No Welsh league until very recently. I always presumed that was why to be honest... :confused:

The excellent Wikipedia carries a full explanation of the reasons behind the LoW's formation:

The League of Wales is the national football league for Wales and is at the top of the Welsh football league system. It was formed in 1992 with nineteen teams, when it was sponsored by Konica Peter Llewellyn Limited of Swansea and was known as the Konica League of Wales. From 2002 the league is named after its new sponsor, the J.T. Hughes Mitsubishi Welsh Premier. The League normally provides three teams for European club competitions (though they invariably do not progress far) -- the League Champions are entered in the UEFA Champions League, the runners-up in the UEFA Cup, and the third place team in the Intertoto Cup. Normally a fourth team is also entered in the UEFA Cup as winners of the Welsh Cup.

The creation of the first national football league for Wales in 1992 was a rather traumatic event. Because of geography, it has always been much easier to travel east-west than north-south, so it was natural for clubs to tend to look east to England for competitors, and the principal non-Football League teams such a Bangor City and Barry Town played in the English non-League pyramid. In the early 1990s UEFA insisted that clubs should not play in a "foreign" league (and arguments about the United Kingdom being one country do not wash with UEFA because all four countries participate in international competition in their own right), thus came about the creation of the League of Wales. Many of the northern clubs refused to participate in the new league initially, and for a time played their "home" English league games in exile at grounds to the east of the English border. Eventually the new order was accepted, although the presence in the English League of the professional Welsh teams, Cardiff City, Wrexham, and Swansea City, remains an anomaly in the eyes of UEFA, ameliorated only by their being debarred from competing for the Welsh Cup which used to provide one of them with near-guaranteed European competition each year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Wales

:) PP

[sadloserkid]

So basically Plastic paddy, you're trying to say that I'm right? :)

[Plastic Paddy]

So basically Plastic paddy, you're trying to say that I'm right? :)

That's about the size of it, yes. :D

:) PP

[Dodge]

On the language thione get Grainne Seoige and Sharoin Ni Bhoeloain to wrestle naked in jelly in the Point. There is not entrance fee but you must pass an oral exam as Gaeilge.

Once we get the men speaking Irish, we'll work on the women...

[SÓC]

To be fair the Irish course is a good deal different now. Peg and her likes are gone replaced by a novel about a junkie blackmailing his father who's banging his receptionist behind the mother's back.