Welsh clubs in trouble?

**eoinh** · 29/04/2004, 11:48 AM

Plus sam hammam is sticking is nose in. see here

**pete** · 29/04/2004, 12:14 PM

Hammam will doubtless watch developments with interest. He wants the league's 17 clubs to change their rules and enable Cardiff and co to push for European spots by playing second teams in the Welsh Premier.

Ha. Some chance i'd say. Can't really have it both ways.

**SÓC** · 29/04/2004, 12:26 PM

As a Cardiff fan I'd be against this. Just Sam looking for some way to try and reduce the huge debt he as built up, and free money for a wonderful stadium that he's trying to build which will never happen anyway.

Uefa most likely wont allow it anyway.

**Plastic Paddy** · 29/04/2004, 12:45 PM

A slight digression, I know, but I expect Dermot Desmond at Celtic to watch developments with Hammam's proposal closely. If SH succeeds, then expect DD to make a renewed attempt to obtain English Premiership status for Celtic on the basis that we can keep a second-string XI in the SPL.

PP

**Éanna** · 29/04/2004, 1:32 PM

Anyone know why Cardiff, Wrexham and Swansea were allowed played in England in the first place? Always wondered.

**SÓC** · 29/04/2004, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by Éanna

Anyone know why Cardiff, Wrexham and Swansea were allowed played in England in the first place? Always wondered.

In the past England and Wales have been treated as pretty much one country, even now the official Labour Poilicy refers to Wales as a region not a country. It was not uncommon for there to be joint teams for them both.

Sure in Cricket its the England and Wales Cricket Board,shortened to the ECB, the team is called England and they have a few Welsh players on it.

The big teams in Wales joined the English leagues, (Cardiff even won the FA Cup in 1927) long before FIFA and UEFA were set up afaik. Just stayed that way then, even though UEFA/FIFA wouldnt allow a team to do it today.

**eoinh** · 29/04/2004, 2:05 PM

Although Liechtenstein clubs play in the swiss leagues.

Vaduz have reached the swiss second division.

**liamon** · 29/04/2004, 4:02 PM

Originally Posted by SÓC

In the past England and Wales have been treated as pretty much one country, even now the official Labour Poilicy refers to Wales as a region not a country. It .

Is Wales a country? I work with a Welsh girl and a few scots and they always take hte p*ss out of her country, saying that it's a prinipality, not a country. Scotland, on the other hand is viewed as a country, for some reason.
(Not sure what the difference is or how accurate this info is, but hey, what the hell, it gets teh Welsh girl annoyed

)

**Dodge** · 29/04/2004, 4:15 PM

Welsh Assembly Home page

Scottish Parliament home page

I presume the fact that's one is called an assembly and one is called a parliament is the basis for the slagging. Welsh nationalism isn't as fevered as Scottish in my experiences of the publics there. Not saying those actively pursuing independence aren't as vigirous. just saying that amongst the general public, its more widepsread in Scotland

**eoinh** · 29/04/2004, 4:31 PM

Although when to comes to things like keeping their culture, language and heritage alive the welsh seem way ahead of the scots.

The welsh language is very strong - you cant say the same for scots gaeilge

**Plastic Paddy** · 29/04/2004, 4:33 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Welsh Assembly Home page

Scottish Parliament home page

I presume the fact that's one is called an assembly and one is called a parliament is the basis for the slagging. Welsh nationalism isn't as fevered as Scottish in my experiences of the publics there. Not saying those actively pursuing independence aren't as vigirous. just saying that amongst the general public, its more widepsread in Scotland

Well, here goes. Wales was annexed to England in 1536 and in return was forced to adopt English law, system of government and, progressively culminating with the spread of the Industrial Revolution from the mid-18th century, language (although with the passing of the Welsh Language Act in 1993, the indigenous tongue has made a strong comeback).

The crown of Scotland was united (note the crucial difference) with England in 1707 and the Scottish parliament dissolved. However, Scotland retained its own legal system, an important differential in securing the re-establishment of its parliament in 2000.

As for why the pull of Scottish nationalism seems stronger than its Welsh counterpart? Relations between north and south Wales aren't strong, natural lines of communication look east to England rather than north-south within Wales, Scotland is more self-enclosed (although with string links to the north of Ireland)... I could go on. There's a PhD and more in there.

PP

**SÓC** · 29/04/2004, 4:34 PM

To be fair the reasons for Wales having an Assembly and not a parliament are all political as opposed to them being/not being a Country.

The Labour Party needs the Welsh MPs (there are no Tory MPs from Wales and only one from Scotland). When they gave the Scots their parliament they had to reduce the amount of Scottish MPs in Westminister. Because Wales only got an Assembly there wasnt as much of a reduction. Labour would have taken too much of a hit from it seeing as they are very strong in Wales. All about to change with the Richards Report though.

I'd agree though Welsh Nationalism aint as strong as Scottish (well at least to the extent that we understand Nationalism).

*edit*

The poor Welsh dont even get repersentation on the Union Flag, whilst Ireland does

**Dodge** · 29/04/2004, 4:39 PM

Fair play SOC. Didn't want ot get into it in detail but there you go...

Amate of mine who's VERY interested in nationalist causes lived in Cardiff for a bit. He gopt talking to some bloke in a bar there who was considering setting up a Welsh terrorist group. My mate says he was the strangest bloke he's ever met.

**eoinh** · 29/04/2004, 4:48 PM

Was there ever a welsh terrorist group?

I remember the SNLA from Scotland.

**SÓC** · 29/04/2004, 4:52 PM

There was the Free Welsh Army but Im not sure could you class them as terrorists.

A few holiday homes belonging to English people were burned down in the 60's.

**WeAreRovers** · 29/04/2004, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by SÓC

I'd agree though Welsh Nationalism aint as strong as Scottish (well at least to the extent that we understand Nationalism).

It's getting stronger though, as you'll have seen yourself in Cardiff. The cross of St David is back in vogue after hundreds of years in oblivion.

Lots of people I know in Cardiff define themselves as "Welsh not British" yet their parent's generation wouldn't have. The Labour Party's iron grip on Wales has historically been to blame for this but they made a rod for their own backs when they created the assembly.

It's actually quite invigorating in Cardiff to see Welsh nationalism on the rise, almost like the former Eastern Bloc countries after the fall of Communism. (Not exactly, but you now what I mean.

)

KOH

**Dodge** · 29/04/2004, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by eoinh

Was there ever a welsh terrorist group?

This guy was just a crackpot, believe me...

**brendy_éire** · 29/04/2004, 5:46 PM

Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Lots of people I know in Cardiff define themselves as "Welsh not British" yet their parent's generation wouldn't have. The Labour Party's iron grip on Wales has historically been to blame for this but they made a rod for their own backs when they created the assembly.

The Welsh are still very far 'behind' in terms of nationalism. Just over 50% of them voted for a Welsh Assembly. (Take what you want from that figure. I think devolution is a sell-out, half measure meself) Many of them are happy to stay in the UK.
There's a fair difference between the north and south it seems. The north is more nationalistic, more people speak Welsh, are more interested in the culture, etc. Was in Wales last summer, nice to see the Welsh flags out, but and the time they had a Union Jack up along with it.

As for the Welsh Assemly, it is little more than a talking shop. It was given no legislative power, it can only amend legislation sent from Westminster. It hasn't given Wales much in terms of real control over it's own affairs.

**Plastic Paddy** · 29/04/2004, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by brendy_éire

The Welsh are still very far 'behind' in terms of nationalism. Just over 50% of them voted for a Welsh Assembly. (Take what you want from that figure. I think devolution is a sell-out, half measure meself) Many of them are happy to stay in the UK.

Not quite, Brendy. 51% voted for an assembly from a 50% turnout, or put another way, 25.5% of the electorate voted in favour. I think SÓC was pretty close in his assessment. It also had to do with making sure that John Prescott's regionalist agenda, and with it the devolution of power to traditional Labour heartlands, wasn't railroaded before the Conservatives could rebuild their power base. Maybe that's a wee bit too much detail.

PP

**SÓC** · 29/04/2004, 11:22 PM

As WAR has said its on the rise but there are just so many Anlo-Welsh living there its quite hard for Nationalist to have a say. The St. Davids Day Parade in Cardiff only had about 90 in it. Paddys Day parade over there was about 10 times that.

Although I saw a good few Welsh, Not British Car stickers.

They picked Beaven, founder of the British National Health Service, over Gwldar, (spelling?) the Welsh Braveheart, as the greatest Welsh man ever in a TV poll a few months ago.

Actually PP do you have any idea if the Richards Commission report is out yet, need it for a project but I cant find it anywhere online.