Sports Call tonight

[Condex]

I wouldn't worry too much about what Eanna says was described in one post by him as a bigot, obviously knows nothing.

[WeAreRovers]

Explain to me how the comment was rascist?

You're wasting your time. :rolleyes:

KOH

[Dodge]

the fact that you arbitrarily decided the guy was not irish constitutes racism in my book
Jesus Christ!



You're wasting your time. :rolleyes:

I think you're right...

[Greenbod]

Explain to me how the comment was rascist?

You may or may not be racist. I don't know you well enough to say, but you are most certainly ignorant of what constitutes being Irish or not.

[NeilMcD]

I still think that the very fact his comments were said to be racist should be taken back and an apololgy given to. Its a huge offence to be calling someone or there comments to be racist. And now we have a new definitino of Irisness, someone who gives there all in an Irish shirt, well i dont think i am irish then. I dont think i have given 100 per cent in an Irish shirt

[Dodge]

You may or may not be racist. I don't know you well enough to say, but you are most certainly ignorant of what constitutes being Irish or not.
If only you knew what I did for a living... :)

Anyway...

1) Jason McAteer was a highly promising footballer in 93/94. He talked about wanting to play at an International level
2) Alerted to the possibility that he might gain international recognition he hired somebody to find out if he had any Irish lineage.
3) One grandparent was born in Northern Ireland and therefore qualified for an Irish passport (although never actually possessed one)
4) McAteer, never having visited this country, applied for an Irish passport in early 1994 (aged 22) on the instructions of Jack Charlton who told him that he was in his plans for the World Cup.
5) While playing for Ireland he has shown more effort than most.

My argument that he's not Irish is that if he wasn't a footballer he wouldn't have searched through his family records. McAteer had no links to Ireland and (I'm making a guess here) would not have applied for an Irish passport, if he had not been told he was in the plans for the World cup OR if the England manager had've capped him at any level.

A player like Phil Babb in my view is legitimately Irish. He held an Irish passport from the age of 16 and has always been proud to call himself Irish. (At 16 in a Millwall programme he told the interviewer he wanted to be Ireland's most capped player) Can you not see the difference here? I'm not criticising McAteer on his footballing ability or his effort. As Neil McD points out by that rationale no-one on this board is Irish.

I've no problem with anyone disagreeing with my opinions but I have a huge problem with someone calling me a rascist or claiming that a statement I made was rascist.

[NeilMcD]

fair play to you, a very well thought out post and you have put your arguments across very well. And I still think there should be an apology to you for implying that you are a racist by saying that comments you have made are racist.

[Plastic Paddy]

I've no problem with anyone disagreeing with my opinions but I have a huge problem with someone calling me a rascist or claiming that a statement I made was rascist.

That all sounds fair enough to me Dodge. I wasn't happy with your original statement, but all that proves is that it's all too easy to take someone else's online comments out of context - and I did. Given the reductionist "soundbite" nature of many message board posts, I hope you'll agree it's an easy mistake to make. Apologies.

:) PP

[Éanna]

I still think that the very fact his comments were said to be racist should be taken back and an apololgy given to. Its a huge offence to be calling someone or there comments to be racist. And now we have a new definitino of Irisness, someone who gives there all in an Irish shirt, well i dont think i am irish then. I dont think i have given 100 per cent in an Irish shirt
keep your facetious arguments to yourself, I wasn't talking to you :rolleyes: If I wanted your opinion on how to live my life I'm sure i'd have asked you before now.

[Éanna]

I've no problem with anyone disagreeing with my opinions but I have a huge problem with someone calling me a rascist or claiming that a statement I made was rascist.
well its pretty much down to a difference of opinion then isn't it. As i've been at pains to point out dodge, I was not calling you a racist, because i'm perfectly sure you're not. I was surprised by the comment you made and as far as I'm concerned it was bordering on racist. If other people want to split hairs and go into dictionary definitions fine. For the record then, I'll just say it was a prejudiced comment, not a racist one. I was NOT (believe it or not) trying to be offensive, and now that you've expanded on the statement I can understand where you're coing from. I just thought it was a very brash sweeping statement.

[SÓC]

TBH I think McAteer would have gotten one or two England caps in his Bolton/early Liverpool days if he hadnt declared for Ireland. Of course that dont mean he'd have had an international Career.

Its not really fair to judge. We dont know his family history, maybe all along he was aware of his Irish blood but it never really effected his life until that point where he had to choose to give up his chance of playing for England

[Dodge]

How was it sweeping Eanna? I wrote about one player specifically. I then mention a number of others. I never once talked about generalities, and I never once mentioned, commented on, or alluded to anybody's race.

And as this is a public forum I think telling meil McD to stay out of it is a bit childish too...

[NeilMcD]

Thank you Dodge and Eanna i think you will find that you interefered in a bit of banter between me an Conor the other day too. I think on a forum to say someones comments are racist you have to have your facts correct otherwise you should take them back and apoligise. It is a forum and i am entitled to my opinion and it is not been facetious getting the definition of the word racism. As when using that word you should make sure you have the facts to back it up as it is pretty insulting to say to someong your comments are racist.

[Greenbod]

Dodge, Just wondering how you reconcile the following statements you've made:


"Anything that drives McAteer out of the squad has to be good. "

and

"I'm not criticising McAteer on his footballing ability or his effort."

"While playing for Ireland he has shown more effort than most. "


Could you also explain to me under what circumstances Irish passport holders do not hold Irish nationality?

[Éanna]

Thank you Dodge and Eanna i think you will find that you interefered in a bit of banter between me an Conor the other day too. I think on a forum to say someones comments are racist you have to have your facts correct otherwise you should take them back and apoligise. It is a forum and i am entitled to my opinion and it is not been facetious getting the definition of the word racism. As when using that word you should make sure you have the facts to back it up as it is pretty insulting to say to someong your comments are racist.
as I said. If I wanted advice from you I'd have asked

[Éanna]

How was it sweeping Eanna? I wrote about one player specifically. I then mention a number of others. I never once talked about generalities, and I never once mentioned, commented on, or alluded to anybody's race.

And as this is a public forum I think telling meil McD to stay out of it is a bit childish too...
sweeping in that you dismissed his irishness at the stroke of a few keys. geenbods post above puts it very well IMO. Can we give up the semantics please- I withdrew my sugeestion that it was racist but I still think it was prejudiced and wrong

[NeilMcD]

For Semantic I read facts, this is the classic move by someone who has been found out to be wrong and then they go well stop be petty, semantic etc etc. You called the comments that Dodge made , as racist. They were not and I am entitled to state that on the forum as it is by its definition a place for people to air there views.

[Dodge]

Dodge, Just wondering how you reconcile the following statements you've made:


"Anything that drives McAteer out of the squad has to be good. "

and

"I'm not criticising McAteer on his footballing ability or his effort."

"While playing for Ireland he has shown more effort than most. "


Could you also explain to me under what circumstances Irish passport holders do not hold Irish nationality?
I think I made several long(ish) posts on why I don't think he deserved a place in the Irish squad.

His footballing ability has nothing to do with his Irishness. By your logic, if Ronaldo tried for Ireland he'd be Irish...

I've a pain in my head explaining myself here. I got Eanna to take back his rascist jibes. I don't care if people don't like my opinion, I just don't want to miscontrue them

[Greenbod]

I think I made several long(ish) posts on why I don't he deserved an Irish passport. I'm not going to re-hash them again.



Whether you think he deserves an Irish passport or not is irrelevent. You said he isn't Irish. Fact is he has one and is Irish.

[Greenbod]

By your logic, if Ronaldo tried for Ireland he'd be Irish...



As far as I know Ronaldo has no Irish relatives and would not be eligible for an Irish passport. Even if he did have the luck to discover that he was Irish, it's too late for him anyway as he's already played senior International football for Brazil.

[WeAreRovers]

That again completely misrepresents the position.

If Ronaldo was an Irish citizen, like McAteer, then of course he could. You may not like McAteer being an Irish citizen but that's the law. To exclude him is as valid as excluding someone from Donegal. The law defines nationality and citizenship, and McAteer is 'in'...

And to think we're about to vote on a referendum that would still allow opportunists like McAteer and Clinton Morrison to get Irish passports but wouldn't guarantee those born on the island citzenship. :confused:

For instance German international Mehmet Scholl has Turkish parents and had no problem obtaining German citizenship yet other Germans of Turkish descent can't get citizenship because they don't have Scholl's talents.

This is the road we are going down with this discriminatory referendum.

If you're looking for racists then Dodge (and even Big Ron) don't fit the bill. McDowell and his cronies do.

KOH

[WeAreRovers]

Would it be preferable if children of Irish people born abroad would have their heritage denied, while some tourist in Dublin on a weekend away who gave birth could have a bouncing Irish baby?

Of course not, they would both be Irish but we're trying to deny some people that fundamental right. Here's one for you - Clinton Morrison or a 4-year-old of Romanian parentage born in Ireland. One born and lives here, the other with fook all Irish "heritage". Which one is more Irish?

The German/Turkish analogy is a good one. I met Turks in Germany whose families had been there for three generations and had no German citizenship rights. They had contributed to German society culturally, economically and socially for decades yet had no rights to a passport. But because Mehmet Scholl is good at football he's German?

And we want to "fall into line" with this twisted racist thinking?

KOH

[WeAreRovers]

Current thinking is that you are an Irish citizen if you are born here, which is highly unusual.

Highly unusual but correct. Good Friday Agreement, Articles 2 & 3 - we have a very specific situation in this country where 6 counties are ruled by a foreign country. People born in the 6 counties have to have the automatic right to being Irish because they are Irish. This logically extends to those born in the south.

This may be an anomaly, as you point out, but if we continue to let Germany and France call the shots on EU citizenship then we will have the German/Turkish situation in Ireland sooner rather than later.

If we are able to have protocols over issues like abortion why not over citizenship. As I said, we're in a unique situation. If we pass this referendum it will once more be a case of running away from our Northern countrymen and women.

KOH

[WeAreRovers]

So, like the smoking ban, it may be prompted by fear of litigation as much as anything.

Nail on the head, my friend. I think that's what frustrates me most - the fact that we legislate reactively and never proactively. And that goes for all parties.

KOH

[Plastic Paddy]

I think that's what frustrates me most - the fact that we legislate reactively and never proactively.

Reactive legislation has been a classic feature of developed democratic government from the time of the Athenians onwards. Proactive lawmaking is invariably attacked in conventional right-wing and libertarian schools of thought as "creeping government", "nanny state-ism", etc., although in some fields (post 11 September 2001 civil contingency and counter-terrorism measures in countries like the UK) the boundaries are blurring a little.

:) PP

[WeAreRovers]

Spot on PP. But in this country, and most "liberal democracies", retroactive legislation is used to suit the agendas of the Big Brother/Nanny State types, which makes it twice as galling.

I have strong Libertarian tendencies myself so I hate ALL governments and their poxy legislation. :)

KOH

[lopez]

Sadly, I missed a great cyber punch-up on Irish citizenship having had the misfortune to travel to Poland on business and sample the wide variety of lagers that will be entering the EU tomorrow. So, if I'm not too late, here's my two cents:

Sorry but having 1 grandparent does not make someone Irish. Even more so if a generation of 'awareness' of one's Irishness has been missed. Andy Townsend supported England in Euro 88; two years later he's playing against them. Hardly consistency here. Same with Aldridge, Cascarino, Robinson, Morrison. Morrison kisses the badge: He can kiss my a*se and it would still not change anything: His past statements suggest that to say he's Irish is making me feel like the little boy in Andersen's The Emperor's New Clothes. Michael Robinson was wrapping himself in the tricolour when he played for us - even telling me in Reykjavik that there's a big tricolour above his son's bed. Anyone here puts a flag above their son's bed? Robo was 4G with just one great-grandparent. So imagine how f*cked up his son became when his father, after being discarded by Charlton, claims it was all cojones: That he was a mercenary.

I have some sympathy with you Dodge, although at first you p*ssed me off with your hamfisted statements. However, all of the above players qualify for an Irish passport legally (including Cascarino). No dodgy deals that the Qataris were trying; no jumping the queue like the Tans with Zola Budd; no blatant discrimination like the Germans with Dundee and the Ghanaian (think Mehmet Scoll had a German father). It's their right according to Irish law. And that right is all that FIFA are looking for.

As for citizenship, Ius Sanguinis will always override Ius Soli. Just because Ireland has tried to balance one with the other for over eighty years is solely down to most of it's applicants for passports were for them to get out of the country rather than to remain. Personally speaking, if you pay taxes, you should be able to vote for the gangstas who are responsible for spending it without this impinging on your own foreign identity.

[Plastic Paddy]

Personally speaking, if you pay taxes, you should be able to vote for the gangstas who are responsible for spending it without this impinging on your own foreign identity.

Well said. If I had tuppence for every time some thick charver said "well if you love Ireland so much, why dontcha fahk off back there then?" I'd be a rich man. My counter-argument has always been that which you've outlined. But I digress.

:) PP

[Bowsy]

Got a number of friends with 1 Irish grandparent and while they are proud of their Irish heritage none of them consider themselves Irish. That one grandparent would have to have one hell of a patriarhal/matriarchal influence over the rest of the family for it ever to be otherwise. That said I'm happy to have people like McAteer in the team as they strengthen a very small squad.

[lopez]

I don't know if you are expressing a fact or what you yourself believe. If the latter that is of course your opinion. If the former you may well be incorrect. Having 1 Irish grandparent gives someone an entitlement to apply for citizenship and if they do so they are as Irish as can be, legally speaking...Firstly, yes it is my opinion. Secondly you are correct about the former only if that person actually gets the passport. Hence the line of my post: 'It's their right according to Irish law [to Irish citizensip]' which is all in the subjunctive. (I know my rant was a bit long but try to keep up). E.g.: Andy Townsend in 1988, British, while cheering for the Tans in Ibiza. Andy Townsend in 1990, 'Irish' while playing for Ireland against the team he was cheering for two years previously. Andy Townsend in 2004: British or Irish? My money's firmly on the former, considering his efforts to get the Irish team to wear armbands over the death of the ex of his former country's head of state's son.

[lopez]

Got a number of friends with 1 Irish grandparent and while they are proud of their Irish heritage none of them consider themselves Irish. That one grandparent would have to have one hell of a patriarhal/matriarchal influence over the rest of the family for it ever to be otherwise. That said I'm happy to have people like McAteer in the team as they strengthen a very small squad.Give you an example here. My son. Loves Spain, loves going to Spain, loves Spanish football, loves deportivo, learning Spanish, adores his Spanish granny. Definitely proud of his Spanish roots and knows where these roots are because he's been there a few times. But I can't say he's Spanish even though, if Dodge is to be believed (which I personally don't doubt), he knows a hell of a lot more about Spain at 10, than Trigger knew about Ireland at whatever age he (eventually it should be noted) took out Irish citizenship.

[lopez]

What has a passport got to do with it, as a matter of interest? There is no requirement for an Irish citizen to hold a passport. And as far as I'm aware the citizenship legislation makes no reference to passports...'The King is in the altogether, the altogether, the altogether, the King is as naked as the day that he was born!' :rolleyes:

[Plastic Paddy]

There is no requirement for an Irish citizen to hold a passport.

There is when you're born outside the state, Conor. We have to opt-in to citizenship by applying for and obtaining a passport. There is no other way of doing it as far as I'm aware.

:) PP

[Greenbod]

Sorry but having 1 grandparent does not make someone Irish.

Leaving passports aside, but if you have one Irish grandparent wouldn't it follow that you also have at least one Irish parent.

[lopez]

Your :rolleyes: might be appropriate, if I had the slightest iota of what THAT was all about.

Just making the point that you were referring to passports and passports having nothing to do with citizenship of this country.OK, I mentioned passport as in football that is needed as confirmation of citizenship. I don't think that the Irish government claims everyone that is entitled to Irish citizenship as Irish. Eg: If the country had national service, would they capture everyone with an Irish grandparent who passed through Ireland and force them into two years of peeling spuds? You still have to make a decision. In fact third generation kids (like mine or Clinton, Andy and Tony) require a foreign birth's certificate for citizenship...or more importantly to get either an Irish passport or to be inserted into one of their parent's passports.

Re the song, see my earlier bit about Hans Christian Andersen.

Leaving passports aside, but if you have one Irish grandparent wouldn't it follow that you also have at least one Irish parent.As far as I'm concerned someone with one grandparent may well consider himself Irish but with our footballers this has been a late-in-life born-again type of Irishness. As for the parent with one Irish parent, I know three people at least who think of themselves as Irish as me and have one British parent. This is not as uncommon as it might seem with the argument about Holland and the Brenda anthem.

[lopez]

Isn't a Grandparent,FIFA/UEFA'S minimum criteria?Not often I agree with them,but seems a reasonable cut-off....even allowing for past 'indiscretions'...Well that would mean that Celtic's Scottish fans are not Irish and no longer is the club too. But as you say we shouldn't generalise.

FIFA's rules were until Qatar tried to buy their international team simple. If you could get a passport (citizenship for Connor) then you could play. This was based on the fact that countries don't usually hand out passports to anyone...not without either athletic prowess or a sackfull of cash anyway. Germany will hand out a passport purely on genetics. Someone whose anscestors left for the Volga or America in the 19th century will walk in and get German citizenship, sometimes on the basis of a Nazi Party membership card. 2G and 3G Turks born in Germany will find it a lot harder if not impossible to do likewise.