Irish-born players to play for other international teams?

[DannyInvincible]

I was wondering if there have been any players born in Ireland down through the years who have ended up playing for another international team at any level. I can't think of any.

I'm aware Shane Lowry of Aston Villa played with our under-21s before committing himself to Australia at senior level, but then, he is Australian-born, having been born in Perth to Irish parents. It would be interesting to know his motivations for making the switch. Maybe he played with us at under-age level out of convenience and sees an international future with Australia as giving him a better chance of playing in a World Cup at some point in the future.

Of players born in Ireland who would have been eligible to play for other international teams but opted for us, I'm aware of Éamon Zayed and Stephen Kelly. Zayed played for us at under-21 level but could also have opted to play for Libya. I'm not sure which north African team Kelly was also eligible to play for, but I'm pretty certain I once read on here that his mother was from the region, maybe Morocco or Tunisia. I'm sure there are plenty others in a similar boat. Even Stephen Ireland was supposedly eligible to play for both England and Italy (not sure how exactly). Then, there's Marc Mukendi Tshilumba who was born in Derry. His father was José Mukendi who played with Derry City for a spell and internationally with Zaire (now the Democratic Republic of Congo), meaning Marc would presumably be eligible for Ireland (he played with us at under-19 level), Northern Ireland and the DR Congo if good enough.

Anyway, that's getting a bit off my original query, but I'm not sure how much discussion there would be in that anyway as I suspect there to have been very few Irish-born players, if any at all, to have played with another international team, so feel free to digress. I suppose, to cut it down further, I'm only referring to those born within the boundaries of the Irish state and wouldn't count those northern-born Irish nationals who've decided to play for Northern Ireland. ;)

[Razors left peg]

Eoin Morgan :)

[fu1ham]

And Ed Joyce

[sean r]

there was a northern irish born player who played for the usa his name was brian quinn and he is from belfast playd frm 1991-94

[DannyInvincible]

there was a northern irish born player who played for the usa his name was brian quinn and he is from belfast playd frm 1991-94

According to Wikipedia, he made his debut against us in a 1991 friendly.

[SkStu]

Kyran Bracken ;)

[ifk101]

Darren Meenan. Born in Dublin and capped by the North at U21 level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_Meenan

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ssssh.
;)

[culloty82]

I know this isn't strictly what you were looking for, but if you go back pre-1950, many of the Republic's leading players (Johnny Carey, Con Martin) could also get caps for the North in the British Championship, until the loophole was closed when the UK teams rejoined FIFA.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'm sure there are plenty others in a similar boat. Even Stephen Ireland was supposedly eligible to play for both England and Italy (not sure how exactly).

Believe despite his name(!) his father was of English stock whilst he had an Italian grand-parent which might explain his attitude towards the Irish national team! Unsure if any of the relatives involved were the ones he cited in 'Jessicagate'.

[dr_peepee]

Darren Meenan. Born in Dublin and capped by the North at U21 level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_Meenan

de tk r plrs :(

[sorbothegreek]

I'm pretty sure i remember reading here about an Irish goalkeeper who ended up acquiring nationality through residency in some far off Islands and played some International matches for them..? Only a few years back as well..

[dr_peepee]

Jayzus yeah. I remember that. Think he was a Leinster Senior league keeper or something.

[pineapple stu]

There was a thread on this before I'm fairly sure. Was sorbo's player not some rugby player playing international rugby for Kazakhstan?

[Dodge]

http://foot.ie/threads/87695-Irish-people-playing-international-for-other-countries

[sean r]

ronnie o brian a mls player is able to play for the usa as his wife is a yank and he also he lived in the usa for the time he can get a us passport. there is also a player named parkhurst who can play for eire but is american born. and i can recall a few years back cork ****ty player john caulfield was in discussions with the usa soccer federation as he was born in new york. nothing came of it. then in rugger we have o gara a yank who playes for eire. i think that keeper who was mentioned in the previous thread played for cayman islands i saw something on futbol mundial about it

[DannyInvincible]

Ah yes, Ronnie O'Brien... I don't know why the FAI haven't been on their knees begging him to come back and play for us. You don't let a Man of the Century sit by the wayside, for God's sake!


I know this isn't strictly what you were looking for, but if you go back pre-1950, many of the Republic's leading players (Johnny Carey, Con Martin) could also get caps for the North in the British Championship, until the loophole was closed when the UK teams rejoined FIFA.

I'd been aware of this alright. This was the origin of the oft-mentioned "gentlemen's agreement" between the FAI and the IFA. FIFA dictated that the IFA were not allowed to call up players born south of the border and the FAI voluntarily agreed not to call up Irish nationals born north of the border, although it appears that practice still would have been fine at the time under FIFA rules, given the fact these players were eligible for Irish citizenship. As for any conditions binding upon the IFA, I'm not sure there were any.

In later years and around the time of the Good Friday Agreement, as more and more northern-born Irish nationals began to volunteer to play for us - there have been a multitude of lesser-known northern-born players playing in our various teams long before and beyond Gibson, Duffy and Wilson - the FAI were obviously reluctant to turn them down and, it appears, amended the situation with the IFA around 1999 in agreeing not to contact northern-born players first about playing for Ireland. The onus was therefore on the individual player to volunteer himself to the FAI. The IFA fully agreed to this back then and acknowledged the FAI's right to choose northern-born Irish nationals, but inexplicably went back on the agreement with their recent reckless adventure to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

[sean r]

would george best of been able to play for eire? if he was not capped for N.I?

[DannyInvincible]

would george best of been able to play for eire? if he was not capped for N.I?

As I understand it, and as far as FIFA's rules were concerned, he technically would have been had he ever claimed Irish citizenship. However, as the FAI had already agreed not to call up northern-born players around 1950, it's unlikely it would ever have happened. At the time, I believe, it was more "fashionable" or "prestigious" to play for the north anyway as they were perceived to be the superior of the two teams on this island up until the late 1980s, when we first qualified for Euro '88 and then the 1990 World Cup.

[sean r]

what if he obtained an irish passport? then would the republic refuse? or said something like he would consider the republic

[DannyInvincible]

what if he obtained an irish passport? then would the republic refuse? or said something like he would consider the republic

If he had obtained a passport, he would have been deemed an Irish national, as far as my understanding of Irish nationality prior to the amendments brought about by the Good Friday Agreement goes and whatever laws might have applied at the time. Whether he would have been bothered to, or even wanted to, is another matter; probably not. Anyway, the FAI might well have refused him in the extremely unlikely chance that he did volunteer, considering the prior agreement with the IFA from 1950 not to call up northern-born players.

However, as I said, it would have been very unlikely he would have been even remotely interested in playing for us considering Northern Ireland played in the somewhat prestigious British Home Championship at the time on a yearly basis and were seen as the better side anyway. The idea of northern-born Irish nationals representing us did not really enter the wider equation or players' consideration until the 1990s when the perception of the two sides' relative strength shifted in favour of us and, possibly, mindsets began to develop in favour of better acknowledging "individual identity rights" in the north as negotiations for the Good Friday Agreement commenced. It's important to be aware that the GFA didn't change anything statutorily as far as FIFA rules were concerned, contrary to common misunderstanding, because numerous northern-born Irish nationals played for us in the years prior to its passing. Personally, I just think mindsets changed, but I'm open to correction.

[backstothewall]

I know its a hypothetical, but it wouldn't have mattered what country George Best had fancied playing for. If he managed to get his hands on a Brazilian passport he would have been in the team.

I mean it was only a gentleman's agreement, and he was the best player in Europe, if not the world

[fu1ham]

Does Paul MacShane count?

[stojkovic]

I'm pretty sure i remember reading here about an Irish goalkeeper who ended up acquiring nationality through residency in some far off Islands and played some International matches for them..? Only a few years back as well..

Wasnt it the Turks and Caicos Islands ?

[pineapple stu]

There was something about that as well; a lad I was in college with was asked to play an international rugby game for them on a Saturday and an international football game on the Sunday. He had to pull out though as he had repeats.

[bwagner]

Lads how many of the Norhtern Ireland squad would have been catholic in the 1982 world cup squad?
Im just curious ( dont wana start any drama )

[dcfc_1928]

Here's the squad - I'd guess that at least 6 would be considered as being from a "catholic" background:

Pat Jennings, Jimmy Nicholl, Mal Donaghy, David McCreery, Chris Nicholl, John O'Neill, Noel Brotherston, Martin O'Neill, Gerry Armstrong, Sammy McIlroy, Billy Hamilton, John McClelland, Samuel Nelson, Thomas Cassidy, Thomas Finney, Norman Whiteside, Jim Platt, John Jameson, Patrick (Felix) Healy, James Cleary, Robert Campbell, George Dunlop.

[bwagner]

I guess your right. I ask because I heard an interview from Martin O'Neill saying it was a great time and there was great banter between them with songs etc and taking the mickey of it all :O)

[Fixer82]

i think that keeper who was mentioned in the previous thread played for cayman islands i saw something on futbol mundial about it

His surname is Gregg. Played a challenge match with my Gaa team as his Da and brother are involved. Couldn't kick the thing further than 30 yards. Brutal!

[Fixer82]

As I understand it, and as far as FIFA's rules were concerned, he technically would have been had he ever claimed Irish citizenship. However, as the FAI had already agreed not to call up northern-born players around 1950, it's unlikely it would ever have happened. At the time, I believe, it was more "fashionable" or "prestigious" to play for the north anyway as they were perceived to be the superior of the two teams on this island up until the late 1980s, when we first qualified for Euro '88 and then the 1990 World Cup.


Was the right to Irish citizenship for people in the North not only brought about after Good Friday?

[DannyInvincible]

Was the right to Irish citizenship for people in the North not only brought about after Good Friday?

No, it has always existed as a fundamental element of Irish nationality law. It differed slightly in substance prior to the GFA, but it still existed. Before the GFA, those born in the north could merely acquire Irish citizenship and were considered Irish citizens from the date their application went through, I believe. If Irish nationality law remained this way nowadays, under FIFA's current rules, technically, I don't think northern-born Irish citizens such as Darron Gibson would be eligible to play for us as they would have to further satisfy the criteria in article 17 of FIFA's regulations governing the application of it's statutes which deals with those players who have acquired a new nationality from their birth nationality.


17: Acquisition of a new nationality
Any Player who refers to art. 15 par. 1 to assume a new nationality and who has not played international football in accordance with art. 15 par. 2 shall be eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfils one of the following conditions:
(a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(d) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

Their Irish nationality would still be "a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence", but when such nationalities acquired from a date after birth are assumed, I believe article 17 is invoked.

I'm not sure what the actual FIFA rules regarding this matter stated at the time of George Best, but presumably they were less stringent as Alan Kernaghan (had northern-born grandparents) was eligible to play for us through simply acquiring Irish citizenship as late as the mid-1990s. There were also other northern-born players who played for us in the years immediately prior to the GFA, for example.

Currently, the right to Irish citizenship for those born in the north is an automatic birthright (just so long as at least one parent of the individual is an Irish citizen, although this condition applies island-wide by virtue of a constitutional amendment agreed since the GFA). This means that once an individual who is entitled by virtue of being born in the north - or someone on their behalf, such as a parent - performs any act that only an Irish citizen is entitled to perform, such as applying for an Irish passport, they will be acknowledged as an Irish citizen from birth. It is not assumed that an individual is not an Irish citizen if they have yet to indicate that they wish to be acknowledged as such through the performance of any act that only an Irish citizen can perform. I believe that to be the substantial difference brought about by the GFA. Thus, under FIFA's current rules, article 15 alone applies to northern-born Irish citizens:


15: Principle
1. Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of that country.

As an added benefit, the British government and electorate in NI formally/democratically acknowledged and accepted the extra-territorial application of Irish nationality law over the north. Prior to the GFA, this application of Irish nationality law would have been an issue of contention and viewed in "aggressive" or "irredentist" terms.

[seanfhear]

Lads how many of the Norhtern Ireland squad would have been catholic in the 1982 world cup squad?
Im just curious ( dont wana start any drama )
There has been wars started in this country for less than this my good man

[ArdeeBhoy]

Here's the squad - I'd guess that at least 6 would be considered as being from a "catholic" background:

Pat Jennings, Jimmy Nicholl, Mal Donaghy, David McCreery, Chris Nicholl, John O'Neill, Noel Brotherston, Martin O'Neill, Gerry Armstrong, Sammy McIlroy, Billy Hamilton, John McClelland, Samuel Nelson, Thomas Cassidy, Thomas Finney, Norman Whiteside, Jim Platt, John Jameson, Patrick (Felix) Healy, James Cleary, Robert Campbell, George Dunlop.

Pat Rice had disappeared off the scene by then which surprises me slightly.

Anyway, if I might be bold enough to guess, those who were of a 'nationalist' background, would have been Jennings, Donaghy, O'Neill(s) x2, Armstrong, Healy and Cassidy? Cleary I'm guessing was the product of a mixed marriage?

While Sammy Nelson was a strange one as he seems to be revered even still by the Irish population in the vicinity of a certain part of North London!
Having his testimonial v.Celtic in 1980 probably helped seal this impression....

[bwagner]

Thanks guys I wonder just who will qualify for a major tournament next :O) us or them

[ArdeeBhoy]

Maybe it'll take being 'we'....

[third policeman]

Not really sure I feel comfortable about denominational profiling of the 82 NI squad, but I am pretty sure that Tommy Cassidy comes from a Unionist back ground. Born in East Belfast and famously depicted on mural along with Best and Dougan as "local" football icons.

[sean r]

how about paddy mccourt could he have played for us?

[DannyInvincible]

how about paddy mccourt could he have played for us?

Yeah, there was nothing to stop Paddy McCourt declaring for us other than his own levels of willingness and ambition.

[Dodge]

how about paddy mccourt could he have played for us?

Nah, not good enough...

[ArdeeBhoy]

TP, stand corrected, mainly as I mis-counted in my enthusiasm there! I mean I went all GR, FFS.

As for PMcC, of course he's good enough. I mean if McGeady is, so is he.

But immaterial now, though as documented in his own thread, even NW won't pick him.
Part of the problem is own though, being an 'impact' player to bring on when you're cruising to victory.
Not too many international competitive fixtures, that nature would be relevant to.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Incidentally a shame that there was no AI team in those Finals as I'm sure we could have provided a few decent players of our own to that squad.....

[Gather round]

Thanks guys I wonder just who will qualify for a major tournament next :O) us or them

Your boys must have a decent chance this time after a good start in Armenia. I'd advise against merely concentrating on finishing ahead of NI. As we've seen recently, neither that nor the reverse guarantees World domination.


Not really sure I feel comfortable about denominational profiling of the 82 NI squad, but I am pretty sure that Tommy Cassidy comes from a Unionist back ground. Born in East Belfast and famously depicted on mural along with Best and Dougan as "local" football icons

Indeed, although there are worse things at sea. It's comparable to profiling if and where in England or Scotland RoI internationals come from. Largely a wind-up, or at best a daydream.

If I ever knew where Tommy Cassidy was from, I've forgotten.


Nah, not good enough...

Probably correct, although a few years earlier he might have made a slightly weaker squad (say, when you add a couple of guys from the LoI or English D3 in it).

[Gather round]

As for PMcC, of course he's good enough. I mean if McGeady is, so is he

McGeady: extensive experience in the Champs' League and internationals, big money transfer to Russia.

McCourt: failed in English D4, now into third season as Scottish reserve player. One competitive international sub experience against San Marino.

Not really comparable, are they?


Incidentally a shame that there was no AI team in those Finals as I'm sure we could have provided a few decent players of our own to that squad.....

There was a RoI team in the qualifying tournament with the opportunity to pick players from across Ireland and beyond. They didn't make the finals because they weren't decent enough.

[third policeman]

I dont think it's accurate to characterise McCourt as a "Fourth Division failure" or an impact player for when you are cruising to victory. Many of his goals and impact contributions have been in games where Celtic have been struggling. It's sad in a way that "the British game" has difficulty accomodating talents like McCourts, and is inevitably inclined to dismiss them as "luxury players".It is even more incredible that NI with their present embarrassment of medicrity can ignore a player who could genuinely make a difference to a game. Come on GR you dont honestly mean to tell me that players like Little, McAuley and the Coleraine goal machine (Patterson) are a class above McCourt? Niall McGInn's impact at Celtic has hardly been more significant and yet he is a squad regular.

[Gather round]

I dont think it's accurate to characterise McCourt as a "Fourth Division failure"

Given that he's never established at a higher level in England (or Scotland), and moved from Rochdale back to the LoI, it looks accurate to me.


or an impact player for when you are cruising to victory. Many of his goals and impact contributions have been in games where Celtic have been struggling

He hasn't scored "many goals" in Celtic's first team. He's only started a handful of games in more than two seasons.


It's sad in a way that "the British game" has difficulty accomodating talents like McCourts and is inevitably inclined to dismiss them as "luxury players"

I too would prefer to see the game played with more emphasis on skill, less on energy. That said, if McCourt was good enough he'd have adapted. I'm reminded of Danny Blanchflower's quip in the 70s: "Hoddle? No, it's the bad players who are luxuries".


It is even more incredible that NI with their present embarrassment of medicrity can ignore a player who could genuinely make a difference to a game

He's played three full internationals and hasn't stood out. While the players who might make way for him (Brunt, McCann) are established at rather higher levels of mediocrity. Put starkly, the SPL is a poor league and he isn't good enough for its top level. Nor do I see Inverness or Kilmarnock etc. rushing to sign him.


Come on GR you dont honestly mean to tell me that players like Little, McAuley and the Coleraine goal machine (Patterson) are a class above McCourt? Niall McGInn's impact at Celtic has hardly been more significant and yet he is a squad regular

Naughty TP, with your leading rhetorical questions. Little, like Pat is a SPL reserve and very much on the fringe internationally. McGinn has impressed in his two qualifying appearances. Patterson won't feature regularly unless/ until he scores a hatful in D3 or moves up. McAuley's an odd choice given his extensive experience in English D2. Centre backs aren't generally expected to slalom past five or six men, but I wouldn't hold that against him.

As I've said above, I'd be delighted if PMc played regularly for Celtic this term and established in our squad or first team. The onus is on him before Worthinton.

[third policeman]

He's played three full internationals and hasn't stood out. While the players who might make way for him (Brunt, McCann) are established at rather higher levels of mediocrity. Put starkly, the SPL is a poor league and he isn't good enough for its top level. Nor do I see Inverness or Kilmarnock etc. rushing to sign him.


Perhaps not, but he has turned down two moves to Premiership clubs (West Brom and Blackpool) in the last two years. I am not an NI-basher as you know, and genuinely want to see them achieving their potential. I just think that even allowing for his inconsistency McCourt is more likely to have an impact in changing a game than anyone else on your bench. So far this season his goal to minutes on the pitch ratio must be better than any other SPL player including Lafferty.

[ArdeeBhoy]

McCourt in recent times has shown at least as much skill as McGeady, so of course it's comparable. Just he can only do it for 20-30 mins.or so. Aidan, like most other pro' footballers is just a lot fitter.

As for '82, it was a hypothetical point, FFS.
(And the proper Ireland team were cheated in that tournament's qualifiers anyway.)
You've lost the debate on every other point previously, so why make a tired effort to win back even an ounce of credibility now??
Just think, an AI team could have gone even further than the North did....

[ArdeeBhoy]

It's comparable to profiling if and where in England or Scotland RoI internationals come from.
Clearly Amnesia has struck you once again with regards to the geographical birthplaces/origins of many of the North's junior squads. Still at least the IFA have now turned a blind eye to past hypocrisy!
;)

[Gather round]

Perhaps not, but he has turned down two moves to Premiership clubs (West Brom and Blackpool) in the last two years

I saw the Blackpool story, but assumed it was a joke really. McCourt wouldn't likely contribute much in a team that's likely to be defending for 80% of most games this term.


I am not an NI-basher as you know, and genuinely want to see them achieving their potential. I just think that even allowing for his inconsistency McCourt is more likely to have an impact in changing a game than anyone else on your bench

Ta. As far as I know I'm in a minority of NI fans on this one- most want him in the next squad, certainly for the Faeroes game. I imagine Italy's defence will be less generous :eek:


So far this season his goal to minutes on the pitch ratio must be better than any other SPL player including Lafferty

Good, give him a run of 10-15 starts there. Over to you Neil (and Pat of course)...


McCourt in recent times has shown at least as much skill as McGeady, so of course it's comparable. Just he can only do it for 20-30 mins.or so. Aidan, like most other pro' footballers is just a lot fitter

McGeady, although younger, has achieved much more in the game. Ditto Chris Brunt. That's why two of them are international/ CL/ Prem regulars, and one's a long-term reserve. There's much more to the game than the occasional cameo dribble.


As for '82, it was a hypothetical point, FFS

I know. But one intended purely to wind up, no?


And the proper Ireland team

They're no more or less "proper" than any other.


were cheated in that tournament's qualifiers anyway

Aye, wasn't there a bent ref against or from Belgium? Sorry if I forget the details, it was nearly 30 years ago.


You've lost the debate on every other point previously, so why make a tired effort to win back even an ounce of credibility now??

As before, I'm merely defending NI's modest record against ridicule. I didn't realise I'd lost any argument making extravagant claims?


Just think, an AI team could have gone even further than the North did....

Aye, and if yer granny had balls etc. You've had a pool of good players from outside the country for decades, but only qualify occasionally because quite simply England/ Russia/ Netherlands/ Portugal etc. will almost always have more. With due respect to Marc Wilson, Darron Gibson etc. they're unlikely to change that.


Clearly Amnesia has struck you once again with regards to the geographical birthplaces/origins of many of the North's junior squads. Still at least the IFA have now turned a blind eye to past hypocrisy!
;)

How so? I haven't forgotten it, I accept it goes on everywhere. If the IFA are hypocritical, I'm not.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I know. But one intended purely to wind up, no?
Only to a paranoid simpleton!
;)

They're no more or less "proper" than any other.
Well they are, they represent a nation-state recognised by the UN. Even Ingerland cant say that about itself.


I didn't realise I'd lost any argument making extravagant claims?
Suggest you read the many factual errors in yer posts passim.


Aye, and if yer granny had balls etc.
WTF are you on about?? A re-writing of Darwinism??



How so? I haven't forgotten it, I accept it goes on everywhere. If the IFA are hypocritical, I'm not.
Like everytime you post on the topic. And the last sentence makes no sense, even for you.