View Full Version : Evening Herald article on Bohs-Rovers
Éanna
20/04/2004, 12:32 PM
IRISH SOCCER HOOLIGANS PLAN RIOTS ON THE NET
Irish soccer hooligans are using the net to organise pre-match violence and forge links with European neo-nazi groups
Am Evening Herald investigation folowing recent shocking scenes involving shamrock rovers fans, has found the problem of of football holiganism is spiralling out of control.
Last weekend Rovers fans clashed with Bohemians supporters in broad daylight ina pre-arranged mellee outside Dalymount Park in Dublin
A group of around 80 supporters from Bohs and Shamrock Rovers were involved in Fridays riot at Doyles corner before their teams eircom league fixture
Bottels, coins and rockswere thrown during the incident which lasted 10 minutes
Gardai eventually seperated both parties but a number of innocent families and children were caught up in the ugly scenes
During the match members of the notorious Shamrock Rovers Ultras a hooligan wing linked to the club , produced a pig's head and pig's feet and threw them onto the pitch, in scenes that shocked football observers
the evening herald has learned that the ugly pre-match riot was a planned event with holligan elements from both clubs using the internet to arrange a time and venue for the arranged fight
so called Bohemians "casuals" were based ina phibsboro pub while Rovers "ultras" drank ina pub close to the city centre.
sources have confirmed to the EH thatat around 7pm leaders from both groups made contact using mobile fones to confirm that violence would take place. as shamrock rovers fans made tehir way to Dalymount bohemians "potters" watched them and phoned ahead to warn the casuals of their approach.
gardai appeared unprepared for the street violence with most of the 50 uniformed officers on duty, aswell as a team of riot police, based inside teh stadium. As punches and missiles were exchanged between rival fans 4 helpless gardai looked on phoned for back-up.
police reinforcements eventually seperated the young thugs but a number of frightened children were caught up in the violence.
pre-planned violence is now common place in the eircom leage. there is a hardcore hooligan element attached toa number of mainly dublin teams , whose sole aim is to cause viuolence.
last september shamrock rovers were evicted from richmond parkfollowing violent scens before and after amatch with bohemians.
mindless thugs associated with the shamrock rovers ultras have been bragging about fridays violence outside dalymount on a website dedicated to the group
the homepage of the site declares "just f**k them all. Everyone is the enemy, we are on our own lads"
One ultra declares, "we weren't hiding, we stood and didnt run, youse were let down big toime when onlya quarter of the lads you had went for it big time. Fair play to the rovers lads. i enjoyed it".
Another thug taunts bohemians fans saying "bottom line is bohs got slapped on their own patch, we backed off even before teh cops got it sorted. hope there's no CCTV on that corner" while another jeeringly claims"you were all rolled over on your own patch you s****bags"
tovers ultras have forged links with right wing neo-nazis from other europena countries including Greece, Sweden and Germany.
Links to other hooligan websites dedicated to violence show football supporters rioting all over europe.
the ultras call these groups"green and white brothers" nd they include europs most fanatical and dangerous hooligans
in a sinister development hooligans have downloaded pictures of gardai and stewards who were on duty at dalymount asking if anyoneknows who they are. identification numbers of some gardaiand stewards are published on the website, alongside the photo of a garda filming supporters is the caption "you've been framed Pig"
one source close to the ultras told the evening herald "these lds model themselves on English hooligans in the 1980s"
a spokesman for the FAI said that the association was "awaiting a number of reports on teh game" before deciding what action, if any, it will take.
these scenes were localised incidents and are not common in the league. We do not condon any public disorder activity and it has no place in the game, he said
the association stressed that it was not responsible for what fans do poutside football stadiums, saying it was amatter for the gardai. if the clubs are found to have not controlled their fans they could be forced to adopt earlier kick off times or have to play their fixtures behind closed dorrs.
gardai have confirmed that they are aware of Fridays incident "we are also concerned about pictures of members of the force appearing on these websites which is illegal"
Éanna
20/04/2004, 12:35 PM
[article was typed up on the Rovers Ultras board by green-blood]
pre-planned violence is now common place in the eircom leage. there is a hardcore hooligan element attached toa number of mainly dublin teams , whose sole aim is to cause violence.
The article is an absolute disgrace. the above quote damages every club in the league and can't be left go. there has been talk about suing the Herald and IMO that should be the least that is done. It is absolutely reprehensible that this kind of slander be published. The Herald should be banned from all eircom League grounds and all other FAI related activity until a front page apology is published
max power
20/04/2004, 1:03 PM
Enna a lot of that is true, certain bohs and rovers fans only turn up for those games, i was on my way over to tolka on friday night and i saw the rovers fans walking up towards dalymount, these guys only want trouble...i live in inchicore and i saw the violence outside richmond last year with my own eyes, there was a car set alight outside my apartment....
they are trouble and bohs fans have caused trouble in longford as well, and not to forget rovers fans throwing a bottle at bray last season OR a bottle thrown from a cork fan at the recent shels game.....just a few examples of mindless violence, and it is violence and it the premier division of our soccer league it is a disgrace, how are we to get fathers bringing their kids to games when this is what confronts them ????
cop on and realise that is it a problem and what was written has a lot of truth in it, or are yee all law loveing saints down in the "wanna be capital "..
nuff said..... :mad:
Fcuk
Slow news day in the EH. Story might just be about Bohs and Rovers but if you read that would you be inclinded to bring your children to any eL match?
Half of it is fiction, the other half un-informed. Didnt expect much more from the classy Hearld though. Notice how the part about the Rovers fan getting the crap kicked out of him is ommitted. Also one quote which they attributed to a ultra is actually from a Bohs fan.
It's about time Rovers and Bohs met (club officals and decent fans) and sorted their problem out. Some honest and decent fans know who started the shíte which the EH then goes on to make a Godfry Jones/Rock Bottom style report on(Sweet Sweet Can)
Everybody knew there was going to be trouble at this match, why was it allowed develop? I though the FAI took over handling of these games to make it safer but all the major incidents have happened since they took over.
That article is total over hyped nonsence. Are you seriously saying that article isn't way over the top Max? If they think that's anything bad, they wouldn't want to go to pratically any match in England. However they will still be running their competitions for United Liverpool and Arsenal Spurs where something like that would barely warrant a mention.
If the police had been doing their job properly there would be no trouble at these games (how many years running has there been incidents at Doyles corner now, and last year in Inchicore, the Rovers fans were supposed to be kept in and weren't). IMO this is all a big cover up of the fact the Guards can't police matches effectively and efficiently, and to cover up the fact that a Rovers fan was assualted in front of them (hence the pictures on the Ultras board).
To call the ultra's a hooligan group is ridiculous IMO.
Who wrote that article btw?
I can't see how any eL fan can support that piece of rubbish, and the damage it does to our league. Every minor incident is blown out of all proportion by a domestic media keen to see the end of our league, yet even our own are all too willing to believe it.
max power
20/04/2004, 1:26 PM
macy as i said, some of what they say is true....it is pre planned, it is out of control with these two teams ( every game there is some sort of a problem ).....and if its not stoped now it will get worse and it "family attitude the clubs are trying to promote will be gone...
but i do agree that they need to see an english or worse italian game to see real ultras.......
but there is a problem that needs to highlighted and there is no point burying our heads in the sand, its a problem for the league as a whole...
the 12 th man
20/04/2004, 1:28 PM
, how are we to get fathers bringing their kids to games when this is what confronts them ????
.. :mad:
i am in this positition right now, and while it wont stop me bringing him (them)
as i have 2 boys, to matches i am certainly selective about the matches i would bring them to.
like, there was no way i was bringing them to the rovers match which is a fcucking disgrace in this day and age. :mad:
cop on and realise that is it a problem and what was written has a lot of truth in it, or are yee all law loveing saints down in the "wanna be capital "..
are you a total idiot or can you just not read? If you had any intelligence you would know that i and others have condemned this behaviour regularly on this site, but that article with comments like
pre-planned violence is now common place in the eircom leage. there is a hardcore hooligan element attached toa number of mainly dublin teams , whose sole aim is to cause violence. is an absolute fabrication and will drive fans away from this league. I never said there wasn't a problem, but that article is bull**** from start to finish
i am in this positition right now, and while it wont stop me bringing him (them)
as i have 2 boys, to matches i am certainly selective about the matches i would bring them to.
like, there was no way i was bringing them to the rovers match which is a fcucking disgrace in this day and age. :mad:
In all fairness 12th, if you're talking about not bringing the kids to a Rovers Town match that is totally ridiculous. Only mither was Rovers fans jibbing into the stand (and if the club are to be believed Town fans try that every game).
The only reason I wouldn't bring a kid to a Rovers Bohs match is that I've seen how clueless the Guards are, nothing to do with the fans of either club. Doyles corner has been a flash point for years, yet still the Guards let Bohs congregate waiting Rovers rather than clearing the area. There also don't give a proper escort to the Rovers fans - whats the point in having hundreds of guards in the ground, when the real problem is Doyles corner? The policing is a joke in this country, and no amount of sensational crap from the Herald should distract attention from that...
the 12 th man
20/04/2004, 1:52 PM
macy,
i was at the match and totally agree on the night there was no crowd problems,only the usual verbal crap.
what put me off were a lot of people posting about their security worries at
richmond when rovers play there so i thought it better not to bring a child to the match.granted some of the trouble is caused by gurriers who live local (inchicore) and dont follow rovers.
But that's exactly the point.... The vast majority of matches in the eL pass off without any incident. In a way, that's why any incidents are blown out of all proportion. I can't think of anytime that it's threatened to kick off with Rovers at a Town game between the two sets of fans. IMO you being scared to bring the nippers is exactly the reason that the media over hypes the incidents - they don't want to be arsed covering our league, so try and poison it at every opportunity...
Herald is a rag & would expect little else.
So many lies in the article can't take any of it serious.
btw anyone got a link...?
Bald Student
20/04/2004, 2:10 PM
From the Herald 02/01/04
"Bohs, Bray, Dundalk, Galway and Kildare have some of the best official sites around while the Shamrock Rovers' Ultras have probably the best unofficial one"
What?? The Herald inconsistant?
pre-planned violence is now common place in the eircom leage.
That is a lie, pure and simple. I'm never going to buy that paper.
WeAreRovers
20/04/2004, 2:20 PM
From the Herald 02/01/04
"Bohs, Bray, Dundalk, Galway and Kildare have some of the best official sites around while the Shamrock Rovers' Ultras have probably the best unofficial one"
What?? The Herald inconsistant?
Cheers Bald Student, I'd forgotten about that.
As ever Macy is spot on about the hysteria and nonsense that is spouted in the media and on sites like this and elsewhere. All you have to do is read Max Power's post to see that Radio Phone-in gob****ery is alive and well, even among el fans. :(
KOH
Lads I brought my girlfriend to the Rovers Bohs game last year (I can'#t bring her to pats games...) and she's afraid of everything.
After the game we stood about 10 yards from both the Rovers "mob" throwing crap at the buses and from the buses themselves. If she wasn't afraid then, no man should.
Honest to god. Seriously some people...
max power
20/04/2004, 2:46 PM
well all i had to do was look out my window and see a burniing car ??? can everyone here say there is no problem at all at any game all season.......no, that is what i'm saying, we need revenue and familes bring that and the behaviour on certain "fans" isn't doing us any good, we just go from one bohs/rovers game to the next without anything changing.
the 12 th man
20/04/2004, 2:50 PM
Lads I brought my girlfriend to the Rovers Bohs game last year (I can'#t bring her to pats games...) and she's afraid of everything.
After the game we stood about 10 yards from both the Rovers "mob" throwing crap at the buses and from the buses themselves. If she wasn't afraid then, no man should.
Honest to god. Seriously some people...
in fairness dodge,i was replying to max powers comment about encouraging people to bring kids to e/l matches.lets face it no kids at matches /no future
WeAreRovers
20/04/2004, 2:52 PM
well all i had to do was look out my window and see a burniing car ??? can everyone here say there is no problem at all at any game all season.......no, that is what i'm saying, we need revenue and familes bring that and the behaviour on certain "fans" isn't doing us any good, we just go from one bohs/rovers game to the next without anything changing.
No, we need people to stop talking/writing/posting crap about trouble. That kind of scaremongering puts people off. And you my friend are getting very close to Evening Herald territory.
Read Dodge's post about about his missus standing beside the Rovers "mob" for Gods sake! Mind you, the poor girl goes out with Dodge so she obviously doesn't easily scare. ;)
KOH
Schumi
20/04/2004, 3:29 PM
Far be it for me to defend Rovers but that article is a disgrace. It says
pre-planned violence is now common place in the eircom league but only mentions two incidents at Bohs-Rovers matches. I'm unaware of anything that could be described as even close to pre-planned violence at any other fixture and even then there's worse in town most weekends.
mindless thugs associated with the shamrock rovers ultras have been bragging about fridays violence outside dalymount on a website dedicated to the group.
the homepage of the site declares 'just f**k them all. Everyone is the enemy, we are on our own lads'
What the **** has that got to do with violence?
I particularly liked this:
One ultra declares, 'we weren't hiding, we stood and didnt run, youse were let down big time when onlya quarter of the lads you had went for it big time. Fair play to the rovers lads. i enjoyed it'. Sound like a Rovers fan? Not to me!
But
During the match members of the notorious Shamrock Rovers Ultras, a hooligan wing linked to the club, produced a pig's head and pig's feet and threw them onto the pitch in scenes that shocked football observers has to take the biscuit. Firstly the Ultras aren't a hooligan group to my knowledge. And who the **** was shocked by a pig's head being thrown onto the pitch. :rolleyes:
I agree, if i had never had gone to a match and didnt know the situation i
think i would be put off going to a match.
There is NO room for violence what so ever. There was a bottle thrown onto the pitch at the last city game. Idiots who do that should be told to stop - if not goi the stewards or the guards. I wouldnt think twice about doing it.
compared to other countries in europe we have some of the best behaved fans anywhere
Apparently the Herald has pulled the story from its later editions. No sign of it at all...
Schumi
20/04/2004, 4:05 PM
in a sinister development hooligans have downloaded pictures of gardai and stewards who were on duty at dalymount asking if anyone knows who they are. Didn't notice this bit before but of course the Herald don't mention that the pictures are of the guard who beat up one of the Rovers fans.
On that, no mention of all the papers (including the Herald) and the TV breaking this "law" when the Guards decided to help the May Day protestors off Dame Street...
the 12 th man
20/04/2004, 4:14 PM
that bit about down loading photos of gardai etc sounds like a wind up to me.
some one was bored today and decided to stir it up.
MariborKev
20/04/2004, 7:27 PM
Lads for us non Dubs who can't get the Herald is there an address to write to so we can express our anger at this article
brendy_éire
20/04/2004, 8:49 PM
That's a shocking article altogether.
We don't get the Evening Herald up here, is it normally consider as an anti-eL paper?
Did the Herald present any real evidence to back up these claims? If not, surely SFRC Ultras would have a case against them?
A face
20/04/2004, 10:25 PM
Lads, while the article is way over the top ..... you all forget ...... this is what the media do. They do it with every story .... sometimes it is in your favour but we can all say that media add arms and legs, they glorify and vilify, and some stories are just plain made up, pulled out of the sky pieces of crap. There are no suprises there.
Rovers and Bohs have elements .... they'd have youy believe they eat their first born and dance with the devil in the pale moon light but that is not true either .... each club has about 50 or so idiots with huge Peter Pan/Walter Mitty type egos who think they are in a film or something, fierce notions about themselves altogether.
They have been like this for ages ..... everyone has complained about it for ages ...... Both clubs gave excuses for ages ...... Both clubs have done what appears to Joe public, diddley squat to resolve the problem, for ages .... The league know all about this for ages ....
It is going on for what seems like an age !!
It has caught up with them and this is directly related to the inaction of the clubs and the league
The bigger issue here is .....
While Bohs and Rovers have the problem .... and have been prepared financially and otherwise for it. All the other clubs in the league have to take it on the chin. Like it or not every club with be effected by this bad press and will have to suffer the consequences of it. Rovers and Bohs wont fork out or resolve the problem.
It is up to the other clubs and the league to lobby the clubs to resolve it once and for all.
And fans every where need to ignore the Bohs/Rovers fans that say ... "this is over reaction", "It'll all blow over like many times before", "Slow news day is all", "Typical fans of other clubs, think the league could ever be progressive and improve", "Dont they know they need us both to drag us down into the mire for the thousand time again", and other statements like that.
It is because of inaction that this will drag on and on and on and on and on .....
It will drag on as long as no one has to take responsibility for it.
It will drag on for as long as all clubs tolerate it and watch the work that has been done by other clubs go down the drain.
The thing that gets me is the people that allow it/ support it/part take in it/ turn a blind eye to it are the very ones that tell us all to be quite and how dare we question it or make an issue of it.
Where do they get off ....... or more to the point ...... where do they actually think they are, and do they think that the league can support this/allow this to happen all the time and just lay down and say nothing.
Bosco
20/04/2004, 10:35 PM
IRISH SOCCER HOOLIGANS PLAN RIOTS ON THE NET
the homepage of the site declares "just f**k them all. Everyone is the enemy, we are on our own lads"
Did anyone read this on their homepage.It has absolutely nothing to do with the bohs-rovers game.Its about the season as a whole and how everything is going against them.The hearld totally twisted their words
A face
20/04/2004, 10:41 PM
Did anyone read this on their homepage.It has absolutely nothing to do with the bohs-rovers game.Its about the season as a whole and how everything is going against them.The hearld totally twisted their words
Thats what they do ....... Rovers have left themselves wide open for it and the expect it so less about them. Are they going to pick up the pieces for the damage this does to our league.
Are they continue their "lift up the carpet quick lads, we need to bury our heads in all the crap that is there already" policy
max power
20/04/2004, 11:20 PM
well side a face, the carpet must be 16 feet off the ground by now, but then again would you expect anything less from the irish....the just deny anything is wrong attitiude
ger121
20/04/2004, 11:32 PM
For any of you who want to email the herald with your comments, the email address is, herald.sport@unison.independent.ie
Dr.Nightdub
20/04/2004, 11:52 PM
i was on my way over to tolka on friday night and i saw the rovers fans walking up towards dalymount
And where would you expect them to be walking towards when they're playing Bohs?
max power
21/04/2004, 8:38 AM
my point is they were walking like a pack of wolves ready for a fight, more there than at any rovers home game in richmond
How can Bohs and Rovers do anything about if the Guards aren't willing to arrest people for getting involved in these incidents? Bohs have banned people for getting convictions, but how many arrests were made on Friday, let alone how many convictions will be got?
It's not the clubs job to police the streets, that's the guards, and for there to be continually trouble at Doyles Corner says it all. They should clear the area before Rovers come through and have enough manpower there to seperate the two sides.
Of course all the Rovers fans would be arriving together - they were probably drinking in the same pub in Town. I'm sure at 7.40 there was a big pack of Town fans leaving fagans heading to Tolka... Walking down the street in a group isn't a crime is it? Would you be happy getting lifted walking down mainstreet with 15 mates, as you're obviously looking for trouble being in such a big group?
Bottom line for me is - proper policing of these matches, there would be no trouble.
Sounds like Macy got himself a parking ticket once and has it in for the Gardai since :rolleyes:
A face
21/04/2004, 8:28 PM
Sounds like Macy got himself a parking ticket once and has it in for the Gardai since :rolleyes:
Or maybe he actually thinks that it is OK to go and cause a public nuisance, and have someone else deal with the problem. It is anti-social behaviour .... that generally means that the general public DONT want it happening. It is irresponsible and it is a big social issue ..... to condone/justify/turn a blind eye on it is just as bad as it enables the problem to continue.
It is very easy to make light of it lads ..... but the fact is, the league has enough problems without this one on top of it. It is doing untold damage to the league and wont be resolved easily. People will stay away for the next ten years and the stigma will be harder to remove .... and just because of a few fools who think this is all cool and great to be involved in.
They are destoring our league and guys like Macy think is is OK !! :eek: :mad: ..... Cop yourself on, i'd expect more from ya.
max power
22/04/2004, 9:00 AM
so i'm not the only one with that view then.......
They are destoring our league and guys like Macy think is is OK !! :eek: :mad: ..... Cop yourself on, i'd expect more from ya.
I never said I thought it was alright, but how can the clubs do anything about it if the police won't? You, me and practically any supporter of the eL could've told the Guards that the main flashpoint was Doyles Corner. Yet still there was sod all guards there (all the riot squad were actually in the ground) for when it kicked off, let alone guards there to clear bohs out of the area before Rovers got there.
Once it did kick off how many were actually arrested? I've heard 4, but that hasn't been confirmed. 4 out of the 80 that was supposedly involved. Hopefully these 4 will be banned, but why only 4 arrested?
My point remains, if it had been properly policed there would've been no trouble.
Why is a football match any different from any city/town centre in the country any evening of the week. There shouldn't be fights outside pubs on a Saturday night, and we (well I certainly do) expect there to be a police presence on places like Temple Bar/ Dame Street/ O'Connell Street to prevent it. I expect the same at high profile football matches, and particularly at known flash points at those matches.
Yes, ultimately the trouble is caused by the numpties on both sides, but it would be so easy to prevent it getting to that point that I don't see how you can't see ineffectual policing paid a major part.
Carlin
22/04/2004, 10:42 AM
Once it did kick off how many were actually arrested?
No one was arrested for the "incident" at Doyles Corner
I'm totally confused about de replies to Macy's comment. Having read and re-read it I must admit that I agree with him and do not see where he condones anti-social behaviour or has an anti-police mentality :confused:. I've been a Cork City fan for 14 years now and have seen very very little violence in the various grounds that I've attended. I've watched matches amidst opposing fans many a time (even rovers fans :eek:), making no attempt to hide my allegiances. This would be unthinkable in most leagues.
However I have witnessed violence and have heard second-hand of more. These by-and-large take place outside de grounds and are beyond de clubs' control - ie they are a policing matter. There has been an upsurge in violence throughout society at large and public order issues are under the remit of the guards.
The UK has largely shed its image of football hooliganism due to effective crowd control outside the grounds alongside with effective stewarding inside - even tho' hooliganism may still happen it happens away from de grounds so matches are a safe place to bring de kids to. To be fair to the guards the upsurge in public disorder has caught everyone by surprise and they are on a steep learning curve but the sad reality of the matter is that certain opposing fans need to be segregated outside the ground and the police should be given all help by the clubs and FAI to do this.
Violence is an issue in the eL in the same way that it's an issue in every small town and every city in the country. It's a minority, but it grabs attention. "Newspapers" of the quality of the EH blow the issue out of all proportion but as others have said we can't afford to bury our heads in the sand either.
However, eL games are still extremely safe places to be and to bring your kids too. Indeed, in the City programme Brian Lennox was stating that many parents drop their kids off at the games and collect them afterwards ( which is on the other extreme - clubs are not babysitters either :p )
I think you're spot on there derm. It seems to me that the guards got it wrong, and while that doesn't excuse these mindless thugs, it does point at a way of stopping it in the future.
If ye want more Gardai outside the grounds then I suggest ye harrass the minister for justice to provide the money required to pay them. If their is no money there then there will be no Gardai there.
max power
22/04/2004, 3:35 PM
yeah and when you think of the amount of garda that were in tullamore last week for the foreign ministers meeting then your loucky there were any at the game at all
But there were plenty of guards - they were all inside the ground instead of at Doyles Corner!!!
bohs til i die
22/04/2004, 4:22 PM
But there were plenty of guards - they were all inside the ground instead of at Doyles Corner!!!
and the tax-payer wasnt footing the bill either. The clubs pay for the Gardai present at the stadium.
the 12 th man
22/04/2004, 4:28 PM
But there were plenty of guards - they were all inside the ground instead of at Doyles Corner!!!
but how could the gardai watch the match if they were on doyles corner? :D
most of them only turn to look at the crowd when theres a goal scored
A face
22/04/2004, 5:43 PM
I'm totally confused about de replies to Macy's comment. Having read and re-read it I must admit that I agree with him and do not see where he condones anti-social behaviour or has an anti-police mentality :confused:.
Hand held high ... I didn't read your (Macys) posts right .... you other post point that out aswell. We are all on the same page, thats what i was worried about. I see your point about not policing at Doyles corner.
Is there any way clubs can ask the guards to go to potential trouble spots if it means stop incidents happening.
Is there any system in place where Guards can get feeback and then adjust accordingly and that way impliment change to improve their overall operation.
If that system is not in place then there is something seriously wrong with the system.
Dr.Nightdub
22/04/2004, 9:01 PM
Is there any way clubs can ask the guards to go to potential trouble spots if it means stop incidents happening.
No need - the cops have walkie talkies. Anyway, it's not up to the clubs to police the streets.
A face
23/04/2004, 12:02 AM
No need - the cops have walkie talkies.
I know ... but just to act as a deterent (spelling?) and not have allow anything to ever start.
Anyway, it's not up to the clubs to police the streets.
But the clubs suffer from the lack of policing ..... directly ..... so while it is not up to them, they should make it their business to put pressure on. If it is in their interest, they should pull out all the stops.
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