A decent year for the co-efficiant?

[shep]

With Dundalk getting a draw and a win(against Grevenmacher),Bohs getting a home win,and rovers so far with a draw and a win....surely this has not been the worst of years for the co-efficiant.

I know we didnt perform against a good Levski side but our draw and win(albeit against poor opposition),may end up being the joint best contribution.

[A N Mouse]

But unless rovers can add some more points, it will have been the worst year since about 03/04.

This can be put down to a number of factors.

Extra team means (points) returns are smaller - this affects most other countries as well.
Ranked higher, but clubs not having their own points to add to co-efficient - means starting in later rounds, but then unseeded.

I'm sure there are others, but off the top of my head, these are the main ones.

[Dodge]

No its been our (joint) lowest in years. This year Ireland have scored 1 point (1.5 by Dundalk, 1 by Bohs, 1.5 by Rovers divided by 4 - Fingal earned nothing)

The previous five years have been 09/10 -1.375, 08/09 - 2.5, 07/08 - 1, 06/07 - 2.833, 05/06 - 1.833 (lost in next years rankings)

[Duggie]

where does it leave us for next year provided rovers get no points against juve? will we be seeded in champs league like this year?

[shep]

No its been our (joint) lowest in years. This year Ireland have scored 1 point (1.5 by Dundalk, 1 by Bohs, 1.5 by Rovers divided by 4 - Fingal earned nothing)

The previous five years have been 09/10 -1.375, 08/09 - 2.5, 07/08 - 1, 06/07 - 2.833, 05/06 - 1.833 (lost in next years rankings)

Cheers...years in the european wilderness and division 1 means i am out of touch with the calculations.

[Dodge]

For the record here's the results in the previous years

05/06 – Shels, 2.5 Cork 2, Longford 1
Shels v Glentoran – 2 wins
Shels v Steaua – draw, lose
Cork v Ekranes Lose, Win
Longford v Carmawho? – Win, Lose
Cork v Djurgardem – 2 draws
Cork v Slavia Prague – 2 defeats

06/07 – Drogheda 2, Derry 4.5, Cork 1.5
Cork v Apollon – Win, draw
Cork v red star – 2 losses
Drogheda v HJK Helsinki – draw, win
Derry v Gothenburg – 2 wins
Drogheda v Start – lose, win
Derry v Gretna – win, draw
Derry v PSG – draw, lose (in first round so draw gets 1 point)

07/08 – Drogs 2, Pats 0.5, Derry 0.5
Derry v Pyunik – draw, lose
Drogheda v Libertas – draw, win
Pats v Odense – draw, lose
Drogheda v Helsingborg – draw, lose

08/09 – Pats 4.5, Drogheda, 2.5, Cork 0.5
Drogheda v levadia – 2 wins
Drogheda v Kiev – lose, draw
Pats v Olimps – 2 wins
Cork v haka – draw, lose
Pats v Elfsborg – draw, win
Pats v hertha – lose, draw (Full point as it was in first round)

09/10 – Pats 2.5, Derry 2, Sligo 0.5, Bohs 0.5
Bohs v Salzburg – draw, lose
Sligo v Villazna – lose, draw
Pats v Valetta – draw, win
Derry v skonto – draw, win
Pats v Kryla – win, lose
Derry v Sofia - draw, loss
Pats v Bucharest – 2 losses

[Dillonman]

To be fair, majority of the Europa League draws have pinned our sides with tough European opposition. Sofia are always in Europe, Maritimo are a top half Portugese side whose league is miles ahead of ours and Israel is a hard place to go to. Now our sole surviver has to face a hurting Juventus side who underperformed massively last year.

[Dodge]

You can keep track of country rtankings for next year here;

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2011.html

but in terms of seeding, the club rankings are more important. These are here;
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2011.html

Presuming Rovers lose both ties to Juventus (and they could get a result to be fair;
The euro contendors rankings would be

Pats - 4.241
Bohs - 3.741
ROvers - 2.741
Dundalk/FIngal 2.241
Sligo - 1.991

If anyone else wins the FAI Cup, they'll get 1.741

[abcd]

The major problem this season was that Dundalk and Sporting were new to the competition which meant they were unseeded along with Rovers too of course. Pats had a good euro record and faced Valetta in the 2nd round stage last season. Similarly Derry faced Skonto Riga in the 2nd round. Their record in europe plus that of Drogheda and Cork put those teams in a much better position in relation to seeding so this year was always going to be difficult for the Europa League teams. Fingal were very unlucky not to pick up some co-efficient points over the two games

Bohs were the team in pole position to advance yet failed the league badly.

There is positives to take ahead of next year though. Rovers and Pats will more than likely both be in Europe and may be seeded. I think 2 teams will start in the first round of the Europa League which may help build up the co-efficient points. The main positive for next season is that whoever represents us in Europe will have at least some experience in Europe in the past.

[outspoken]

Other Leagues like the Welsh and Northern Irish had some good result's they should pick up some ground on the LOI in the rankings now id imagine

[swinfordfc]

It been a poor year for co-efficient and come next year - i would imagine that we will drop down to 35/36th placed?

[Dodge]

No we'll be 31st or so. its unlikely those below us will get enough point to overtake

[A N Mouse]

09/10 – Pats 2.5, Derry 0.5, Sligo 0.5, Bohs 0.5
Bohs v Salzburg – draw, lose
Sligo v Villazna – lose, draw
Pats v Valetta – draw, win
Derry v skonto – draw, lose
Pats v Kryla – win, lose
Pats v Bucharest – 2 losses

Um, not sure about the rest of your results, but last year Derry: drew and won against Skonto Riga, then lost and drew with CSKA Sofia.

I realise you may have missed it, having had other things on your mind at the time :D

[Dodge]

He hee. I was looking them up earlier. Just mis-read Derry v Skonto. Was actually surrprised I couldn't remember Derry getting any stick over it. Now I know why.

Above psot edited

[A N Mouse]

He hee. I was looking them up earlier. Just mis-read Derry v Skonto. Was actually surrprised I couldn't remember Derry getting any stick over it. Now I know why.

Above psot edited

Ahem! Might need to look at that psot again - Loss and draw?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/8188725.stm

2 coefficient points for the year

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/ccoef2010.html

[Cymro]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2011.html

I've had a look at it, here's my assessment. This year's results should see Wales and Northern Ireland each move up at least one place next year, as Liechtenstein will drop 2 points from the 2006/7 season.

Depending on how Bangor City and TNS get on in their future ties this year, Wales could also leapfrog Estonia into a net 44th, having already moved ahead of Armenia. Cliftonville need some results to move NI up past Malta and Armenia, but at least they have avoided falling into the bottom 4 (which would have meant starting in the first qualifying round of the Champions' League for whoever wins the Irish League next year).

In fact, both NI and Wales should be comfortably clear of that ignominy for another couple of seasons. Montenegro have moved out of the bottom four and have been replaced by the Faroe Islands. There is a clear gap of about one point from NI in 49th to the Faroes, Luxembourg, Andorra and San Marino (respectively 50th, 51st, 52nd and 53rd).

The Republic of Ireland will soon lose their best score (2.833 from the 2006/7 season) but are unlikely to suffer too much for it, depending on what happens in the next rounds in Europe. Ireland will be level with Lithuania (in 32nd) when they drop that score, and whilst there are some countries below who could overtake them with some good results this year (Hungary for instance) I can't see Ireland falling any further than about 35th next year. This assumes that Shamrock Rovers lose both legs against Juventus (not necessarily a sure bet).

Believe it or not, despite TNS hammering Bohemians Ireland still have a higher co-efficient score (at present) than Wales for this season (1.000 vs. 0.750). So actually they would be pulling further away rather than being caught as Kieran Burke suggested. However that could change.

[Dodge]

The Republic of Ireland will soon lose their best score (2.833 from the 2006/7 season) but are unlikely to suffer too much for it... I can't see Ireland falling any further than about 35th next year

Next seasons rankings (i.e) 2011/12 will include that 2.833

[Dodge]

Ahem! Might need to look at that psot again - Loss and draw?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/8188725.stm

2 coefficient points for the year

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/ccoef2010.html

You could've giving me a minute ;)

[Cymro]

Next seasons rankings (i.e) 2011/12 will include that 2.833

Ah, OK. So most of my previous post can be discounted then.......

[seand]

In fact, both NI and Wales should be comfortably clear of that ignominy for another couple of seasons. Montenegro have moved out of the bottom four and have been replaced by the Faroe Islands. There is a clear gap of about one point from NI in 49th to the Faroes, Luxembourg, Andorra and San Marino (respectively 50th, 51st, 52nd and 53rd).



Funny enough the ignominy of the first qual rd in the CL would mean a couple of handy points to propel them back up the rankings!

[Steve Bruce]

For NI, this year has been very good. Hopefully cliftonville can get a draw against CSKA, although I wouldn't bank on it.

I'm hoping though that this year will give us Northern Ireland clubs a bit of hope and confidence for next year and we start to take this competition a bit more seriously.

We also could do with a bit of luck with our draws. Linfield in the last few years have had Rosenborg, Randers, Dinamo Zagreb, Elfsborg & Gorica. Which make it very difficult for us to get past a round, although bar Randers we gave a very good account of ourselves.

I think to the Setanta cup might get a bit more competive as the Republic teams are not as good as they once where and the Irish League clubs are gradually getting better, with quite a few exciting youngsters coming through.

It may become a golden age for Irish league football and should make things interesting for the cross border competitions

[MariborKev]

It may become a golden age for Irish league football and should make things interesting for the cross border competitions

Didn't realise Stephen Beacom started posting on foot.ie.....

As you say yourself, until IL clubs decide to take European competition seriously, they should be destroyed on an annual basis.

Cliftonville have a chance of a draw against CSKA, can't see them anything better than that.

The Setanta Cup will not get competitive as there is too much of a gap in class between the top two in IL and the rest. ThroW in the fact that certain IL managers decide that the competition is beneath them and the competition will continue to be dominated by ROI sides.

[dcfcsteve]

With Dundalk getting a draw and a win(against Grevenmacher),Bohs getting a home win,and rovers so far with a draw and a win....surely this has not been the worst of years for the co-efficiant.

I know we didnt perform against a good Levski side but our draw and win(albeit against poor opposition),may end up being the joint best contribution.

I don't know about "a decent year for the co-efficiant", but it's a bad year for spelling....:p

[Steve Bruce]

Didn't realise Stephen Beacom started posting on foot.ie.....

As you say yourself, until IL clubs decide to take European competition seriously, they should be destroyed on an annual basis.

Cliftonville have a chance of a draw against CSKA, can't see them anything better than that.

The Setanta Cup will not get competitive as there is too much of a gap in class between the top two in IL and the rest. ThroW in the fact that certain IL managers decide that the competition is beneath them and the competition will continue to be dominated by ROI sides.

The top two last season where Linfield & Cliftonville, Crusaders & Glentoran where not that far behind and Coleraine if they had of gained form 5 weeks before they did, would have made the end of the season a lot more interesting. So what are you talking about?

[MariborKev]

SB,

When was the last time that one of the Big Two didn't win the League?

You'll admit that yourselves and your East Belfast rivals had horrifically bad seasons- the Glens fans managed to get rid of their manager and the ILS brigade wanted Davy gone for a long periods.

I was at the 3-0 tanking in Solitude and Cliftonville weren't even that good, you lot were woeful. Patterson has a hard working side but he then decides to playing a second/third string for Setanta game. The fact that both the big two Belfast sides misfired misfired meant others had a chance. Would Coleraine have been a force without Patterson?

Want to give me odds worth taking on one of the Big Two not winning the League next year? If it is some competitive, how come Cliftonville are still 8/1 to win in 2010/11?

[shep]

I don't know about "a decent year for the co-efficiant", but it's a bad year for spelling....:p

Jesus id hate to reach the stage in my life when i was doing a spell check on every post in a football forum...when your trying to avoid the boss catching you on the internet at work you dont really care.

[Cymro]

Funny enough the ignominy of the first qual rd in the CL would mean a couple of handy points to propel them back up the rankings!

Exactly, which is why it'll probably happen at some point. San Marino, Luxembourg, the Faroes and Andorra will play each other for several seasons, picking up points against each other. Eventually they'll move ahead of some other country who keeps getting bad draws against teams from Croatia, Sweden, Norway and the like.

Have to say I think the way they work out the coefficients is daft, it doesn't take into account the situation in the tie. For example, on Tuesday TNS beat Bohemians 4-0 and HB Torshavn beat Red Bull Salzburg 1-0. Both results good for the teams that won but one far more meaningful than the other - Red Bull were already 5-0 up from the first leg. And of course one was a 4-0 win and the other a 1-0 win. Yet from a co-efficient point of view they're both worth the same. I don't think it's right.

Maybe UEFA should award bonus points to the team that wins the tie. So you still get a point for winning a game and half a point for drawing one, but you also get (for example) an additional point for making progress through the round. At the moment you'd have to say it's a bit flawed.

[dcfcsteve]

SB,

When was the last time that one of the Big Two didn't win the League?



Portadown in 2002 I reckon.

Prior to that would have been Cliftonville in 1997/8.

It has historically been an extremely rare event for the Irish League title to leave Belfast, and within that increasingly rare for it to not go to the Blues or Glens.

[peadar1987]

Exactly, which is why it'll probably happen at some point. San Marino, Luxembourg, the Faroes and Andorra will play each other for several seasons, picking up points against each other. Eventually they'll move ahead of some other country who keeps getting bad draws against teams from Croatia, Sweden, Norway and the like.

Have to say I think the way they work out the coefficients is daft, it doesn't take into account the situation in the tie. For example, on Tuesday TNS beat Bohemians 4-0 and HB Torshavn beat Red Bull Salzburg 1-0. Both results good for the teams that won but one far more meaningful than the other - Red Bull were already 5-0 up from the first leg. And of course one was a 4-0 win and the other a 1-0 win. Yet from a co-efficient point of view they're both worth the same. I don't think it's right.

Maybe UEFA should award bonus points to the team that wins the tie. So you still get a point for winning a game and half a point for drawing one, but you also get (for example) an additional point for making progress through the round. At the moment you'd have to say it's a bit flawed.

Would I be right in saying that it also doesn't make a difference the ranking of the team you beat? So if Shams were to beat Juve next week, they would get the same number of coefficient points as Bohs did beating TNS. The system should be made a bit more complex to take account of not just the result, but the coefficient of the opposition, and the score in the matches as well, in my opinion.

[Cymro]

The points do increase the further you get in the competition if I recall, so the principle appears to be that in later rounds you'll have to play better teams for your points, as is generally speaking the case. However, in the same round, the points are the same regardless of whether it's a win against Rosenborg or Rudar Pljevlja. I totally hear what you're saying, and I agree.

[galwayjames]

i think the points you score in the group stage for a win are double what you get in the qualifying (i.e. if a win is worth 0.250 in qualifying it's worth 0.500 in the actual competition) plus you points just for getting to the group stage and progressing on.

[Dodge]

On qualifiers a win is worth 1, draw is worth 0.5

It's double this for group games.

Clubs, but not nations, get bonus points for each round competed in. (ie Rovers get an extra 0.5 for their ranking for getting past that round)

Opponents rank doesn't count

[A N Mouse]

Would I be right in saying that it also doesn't make a difference the ranking of the team you beat? So if Shams were to beat Juve next week, they would get the same number of coefficient points as Bohs did beating TNS. The system should be made a bit more complex to take account of not just the result, but the coefficient of the opposition, and the score in the matches as well, in my opinion.

It's hard enough to get your head around the intricacies as is.

A system that says juve are ranked so far above rovers that unless they score 10 against them they don't gain any co-efficient points may sound fairer, but wouldn't be very practical.

[peadar1987]

It's hard enough to get your head around the intricacies as is.

A system that says juve are ranked so far above rovers that unless they score 10 against them they don't gain any co-efficient points may sound fairer, but wouldn't be very practical.

To be fair, it's UEFA, a multi-billion dollar operation. They have no real excuse for rejecting a system on the grounds of a little complexity.

It doesn't even have to be that complicated. You could just use a bonus point system, so the same basic system you have now, only you get an extra 0.1 points per goal scored, an extra 0.4 for a win against a team in the top quarter of the rankings, 0.2 for a draw, then an extra 0.3 for a win against a team in the second quarter, etc. I'm just pulling the values out of the air here, they could be tweaked a bit to ensure the fairest system, but it could be done, and it could be done without too much complication.

[pineapple stu]

Dundalk/FIngal 2.241

If anyone else wins the FAI Cup, they'll get 1.741
Did Fingal get half a point because they got a bye past the first round?

[ger121]

Did Fingal get half a point because they got a bye past the first round?

If I'm not mistaken, Fingal get half a point towards their team ranking as they went out in the 2nd qualifying round. If Rovers go out in this round they'll earn a point as it's a round later.

[pineapple stu]

So it's basically something to give them credit for at least having been in Europe before?

[A N Mouse]

Think it's half point for each round you compete in.

[ger121]

So it's basically something to give them credit for at least having been in Europe before?

Exactly. Even if you go out in the 1st qualifying round you get 0.25 towards your co-efficiant. If somehow Rovers did get to the group stages, they'd get 2 points even if they didn't win a game in their group.

[outspoken]

Exactly, which is why it'll probably happen at some point. San Marino, Luxembourg, the Faroes and Andorra will play each other for several seasons, picking up points against each other. Eventually they'll move ahead of some other country who keeps getting bad draws against teams from Croatia, Sweden, Norway and the like.

Have to say I think the way they work out the coefficients is daft, it doesn't take into account the situation in the tie. For example, on Tuesday TNS beat Bohemians 4-0 and HB Torshavn beat Red Bull Salzburg 1-0. Both results good for the teams that won but one far more meaningful than the other - Red Bull were already 5-0 up from the first leg. And of course one was a 4-0 win and the other a 1-0 win. Yet from a co-efficient point of view they're both worth the same. I don't think it's right.

Maybe UEFA should award bonus points to the team that wins the tie. So you still get a point for winning a game and half a point for drawing one, but you also get (for example) an additional point for making progress through the round. At the moment you'd have to say it's a bit flawed.

Agree with you there and for example lets say Rovers beat Juve that should be worth more points due to the size of the opposition.....the bigger the opponent the better the points should be imo

[Dodge]

Size of the opposition? If ROvers beat Juve, they're a better team so why shold they get more?

[SkStu]

Size of the opposition? If ROvers beat Juve, they're a better team so why shold they get more?

i think it makes sense. Why shouldnt it be a graded score based on the quality of the opposition? Small teams (like Rovers) from the lesser leagues should be rewarded for good results against bigger teams from better leagues.

All you would have to do would be to categorise each league based on its current UEFA standing and allot X number of points for a win against a team from Category A (e.g. England, Spain, France, Italy, Germany) and a lesser number of points for a win against a team from Category B (Russia, Ukraine, Portugal, Turkey, Netherlands) and so on...

[citybone]

hjk Helsinki are losing 2-0 which is good for us as they are the league ranked ahead of us. if rovers get any result over the 2 legs the league could get us back to 30th (unlikely)

[citybone]

make that 3-0

[A N Mouse]

i think it makes sense. Why shouldnt it be a graded score based on the quality of the opposition? Small teams (like Rovers) from the lesser leagues should be rewarded for good results against bigger teams from better leagues.

All you would have to do would be to categorise each league based on its current UEFA standing and allot X number of points for a win against a team from Category A (e.g. England, Spain, France, Italy, Germany) and a lesser number of points for a win against a team from Category B (Russia, Ukraine, Portugal, Turkey, Netherlands) and so on...

So what happens when a team from spain plays a team from england?

[Charlie Darwin]

i think it makes sense. Why shouldnt it be a graded score based on the quality of the opposition? Small teams (like Rovers) from the lesser leagues should be rewarded for good results against bigger teams from better leagues.

All you would have to do would be to categorise each league based on its current UEFA standing and allot X number of points for a win against a team from Category A (e.g. England, Spain, France, Italy, Germany) and a lesser number of points for a win against a team from Category B (Russia, Ukraine, Portugal, Turkey, Netherlands) and so on...
Is it really that relevant when everything is seeded anyway? All it would do is exaggerate freak results: like if Juve beat Rovers 10-0 in the first leg, then put out a scratch side and got beaten at home.

[SkStu]

So what happens when a team from spain plays a team from england?

the earth will implode.

I dont know! Its just an example of something that might work if it ever came to be that UEFA were thinking that way... i dont give a sh1t either way but i dont have any problem with the concept.

[A N Mouse]

the earth will implode.

I dont know! Its just an example of something that might work if it ever came to be that UEFA were thinking that way... i dont give a sh1t either way but i dont have any problem with the concept.

The current system is not perfect, and is skewed in favour of the big teams. But it can be seen to treat everyone the same, and is relatively simple - there's a lot to be said for simplicity.

Why should TNS be punished because they 'only' beat bohs, I mean there could have been a category a team in the draw. Or as Charlie Darwin suggest why should a result in a dead rubber be any better than the old 'moral victory'

I can just about follow it as is. I mean we wouldn't have, much of, a co-efficient thread every year if it required differential equations to figure out what was going on.

Keep It Simple Stupid

[SkStu]

fine by me! I cant stress enough how little changing it or not changing it bothers me. Its just something i havent considered before and i think it is an interesting proposition or idea.

BTW, I wouldnt see it as a "punishment" on TNS. They are still rewarded with x number of points for beating Bohs (from their perspective the best possible draw for them) and progression to a tie with Anderlecht and another opportunity to gain more points. And a result in a dead rubber is still a result. Its not the smaller teams fault that the other team was willing to risk losing by fielding a weakened team or taking their foot off the pedal.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah, but it would be the fault of the system if it allowed such events to distort the rankings. I'm not particularly pushed myself on which system they use, but I can see the logic of set points when the entire structure of the competition is designed to avoid mismatches.