what starting 11 should be....

[Plastic Paddy]

Anyone who doesn't have Roy Keane in their team does not care if the Irish team win and should not be allowd to call themselves a fan.

:rolleyes:


And finally, a question for Plastic Paddy, why do you support the Irish soccer team? It would appear to me that you don't actually care if we achieve any kind of success?

Err, because I'm Irish? :rolleyes:

You base your assertion on the flimsiest of evidence, son. Show me where I've said that I'm not ambitious for my team. Just don't try holding your breath while you look for that quote.

:) PP

[eirebhoy]

I'm going to position Reid on the right of midfield but I'd more or less give him a free role. This is my team against Cyprus, Faroes, and Isreal:

_______________________Given_____________________

Carr________Cunningham________O'Brien________Finna n

A.Reid________Keane_________Kavanagh________Duffer

________________Keane_________Lee_______________

Team v's France and Swizz:

_______________________Given_____________________

Carr________Cunningham________O'Brien________O'She a

Finnan________Keane_________Kavanagh________Duffer

_____________Keane_________Morrison/Lee___________

Here are the reasons. The back 4 in the top team would be my first choice as I feel the jury is out on O'Shea who has yet to impress me in a green shirt. Finnan is just as comfortable with his left foot so would do well on the left.

I'd have Lee up front because Duff and Reid would average about 10-20 crosses between them in a match against the smaller teams and Lee is bound to get on the end of a few. Doc was our top scorer for the Euro qualifers because of his height. From what I've seen of Lee, he is just as good with his head and a lot better than Doc with the ball at his feet. Lee is probably not as good with his feet as Morrison (who isn't the best either TBH) but his goals and assists with the head could prove vital.

The midfield in the first team is what I would consider the best. Reid and Duff being the creators, Keane the holding player and Kavanagh the box to box. Kav and Keane could be something special and won't let too many players pass them.

When we are playing against France and the Swizz we won't be allowed attack as much and will have to attack on the break (we could learn a lot from Villerreal :) ). Therefore, Reid will most likely get caught out down the right and Carr isn't the best under pressure. Finnan will be a better option on the right of midfield when we face the bigger teams with O'Shea at LB.

[carnstien]

:rolleyes:



Err, because I'm Irish? :rolleyes:

You base your assertion on the flimsiest of evidence, son. Show me where I've said that I'm not ambitious for my team. Just don't try holding your breath while you look for that quote.

:) PP

Well I believe that you said that you would not have a player, who has indisputably been the most influentual certral midfielder in world football over the last 10 years, in the Irish team, because you don't like him. When there are no alternative players who even come close to this man in terms of footballing ability, not having him in the team (because you don't like him personally) is the ultimate display of lack of ambition.

[Plastic Paddy]

Well I believe that you said

Not good enough. Where's the quote in which I say, as per your original accusation, that I don't actually care if we achieve any measure of success?

:rolleyes: PP

[brendy_éire]

Well I believe that you said that you would not have a player, who has indisputably been the most influentual certral midfielder in world football over the last 10 years, in the Irish team, because you don't like him. When there are no alternative players who even come close to this man in terms of footballing ability, not having him in the team (because you don't like him personally) is the ultimate display of lack of ambition.

There's a lot more required to represent your nation than just footballing talent.
I place principles before my ambition for success on the field. Success is great when it comes, but does it really matter to the true supporter at the end of the day? What's important is being proud of those who are our representing you. And it doesn't matter if we're 1st and 150th in the world, if the players show commitment and pride when wearing the green jersey, I'll support them.

[liamon]

....I place principles before my ambition for success on the field. Success is great when it comes, but does it really matter to the true supporter at the end of the day? ......, if the players show commitment and pride when wearing the green jersey, I'll support them.

When has Keane not shown "commitment and pride " on a pitch, playing for club or country?
So support him as you say you will.

I admire your principles, but most teams have players that are going to offend your principles. Players who take drugs, cheat (on and off the pitch), get drunk, jailed, speed, etc. As long as they do what is asked of them on the pitch, then we mortals tend to forgive them.

[carnstien]

There's a lot more required to represent your nation than just footballing talent.
I place principles before my ambition for success on the field. Success is great when it comes, but does it really matter to the true supporter at the end of the day? What's important is being proud of those who are our representing you. And it doesn't matter if we're 1st and 150th in the world, if the players show commitment and pride when wearing the green jersey, I'll support them.
"commitment and pride when wearing the green jersey" - that pretty much sums up Roy Keane, so good to see you will be supporting him.

I disagree that success is not important, in my opinion it is everything. As was already pointed out, EVERY team will have players who are not morally perfect, but at the end of the day we are there to support the team and we should all want them to do as well as they can.

If that means that some of the players are *******, well so be it, most people are *******s anyway. If Damien Duff was the biggest arse-hole on the face of the planted, I would still want him in my team, because when it comes to football he is the best of the best , it shouldn't matter to a fan if he goes home and beats the **** out of his wife every night, what matters to a fan should be what he does on the pitch.

[Plastic Paddy]

I disagree that success is not important, in my opinion it is everything. As was already pointed out, EVERY team will have players who are not morally perfect, but at the end of the day we are there to support the team and we should all want them to do as well as they can.

it shouldn't matter to a fan if he goes home and beats the **** out of his wife every night, what matters to a fan should be what he does on the pitch.

You come across as callow and tremendously naive. And I'm being nice to you. I take it that you're not a parent nor do you work with children or young people in any capacity. Well, wake up, because in many cases these youngsters look to their footballers as role-models if not demigods. Personal conduct of people in the public eye IS important, and that includes our footballers. Do I tell my youngsters that it's OK to denigrate women sexually or physically because they see their heroes do it? No. And that stance, by the way, has nothing to do with lack of ambition or not wanting the team to do well. It's all about taking and accepting personal responsibility, which is far FAR more important than the results of any football match. Ever.

Choose your examples with more care. Or I'll have you for it every time.


Well I believe that you said

I'm still waiting for that quote...

:rolleyes: PP

[brendy_éire]

I admire your principles, but most teams have players that are going to offend your principles. Players who take drugs, cheat (on and off the pitch), get drunk, jailed, speed, etc. As long as they do what is asked of them on the pitch, then we mortals tend to forgive them.

Nobody is 100% morally perfect, obviously. But I want those who are out representing me and my country to take the role seriously. Roy Keane has lied to get out of playing, and in my eyes, needs to apologise before being given the honour of playing for Ireland again.

[carnstien]

Well, wake up, because in many cases these youngsters look to their footballers as role-models if not demigods.

Do I tell my youngsters that it's OK to denigrate women sexually or physically because they see their heroes do it?

I would consider Roy Keane to be an excellent role model for any youngster. He came from a tough background and through hard work and determination has become one of the greatest footballers in the world, without ever settling for second best or compremising on his principals.

I never said it was OK to "denigrate women sexually or physically because they see their heroes do it", in fact I picked that example as I would consider it to be the lowest of the low. The point I was trying to make is that I don't care what the hell the players on the Irish team do off the pitch, as long as they well perform on it.

[liamon]

Nobody is 100% morally perfect, obviously. But I want those who are out representing me and my country to take the role seriously. Roy Keane has lied to get out of playing, and in my eyes, needs to apologise before being given the honour of playing for Ireland again.

Roy does take the Irish team seriously, or do you not remember his contribution over the years?
Saipan - he fought wiht the manager and one had to go. That happens. Move on. No apology needed.
He retired due to injury/age/club commitments as per Shearer,Gary Kelly, Dean Kiely etc. He hasn't been able to play as often as he wanted to since then and regularly misses club games. Two games in a week is too much for him. So he sat out the second (meaningless) Iran game. Despite this, he misses the Irish team too much and now he wants back. Would you demand an apology of any of the above before you'd let them on to a national team? Or is Keane different?

"End of the day", the manager wants him, he wants to play and he has something to contribute. Can't we just accept this and move on?

[liamon]

.. youngsters look to their footballers as role-models if not demigods. Personal conduct of people in the public eye IS important, and that includes our footballers. Do I tell my youngsters that it's OK to denigrate women sexually or physically because they see their heroes do it? No. .... PP
Denegrate women? I don't remember Roy going on a Viking style "rape, pillage and plunder" spree at any stage.
He's made mistakes. (So have I, hard though that is to believe.)
I don't think he's done anything that would really lead kids astray, apart from his calculated "tackles". Not playing for Ireland? Hardly a crime.
Get over it.

[Plastic Paddy]

Denegrate women? I don't remember Roy going on a Viking style "rape, pillage and plunder" spree at any stage.
He's made mistakes. (So have I, hard though that is to believe.)
I don't think he's done anything that would really lead kids astray, apart from his calculated "tackles". Not playing for Ireland? Hardly a crime.
Get over it.

Wasn't talking to you. And I wasn't referring to Keane's record either. You'll need to read the whole exchange between meself and Carnstien to appreciate the context in which that comment was set. But I wouldn't bother. It gets tiresome pretty quickly.

Like you said, Keane will be back in a green shirt soon, and that's that. I guess I'm over it. ;)

:) PP

[scouser]

The underlying point to all this is: Without Roy Keane we only managed to beat Saudia Arabia in the World Cup, draw a couple others and lose 2 important matches at the beginning of the Euro qualifiers to Russia and Switzerland, not to mention draw away to Alabania and get a last minute winner against them at home.

With Roy Keane we were unbeaten in the World Cup Qualifiers. Anyone who saw our matches at home to Portugal or Holland will realise his immense and irreplacable contribution to our team. We are more successful with him than without him such is the calibre of a player he is.

[Declan_Michael]

The underlying point to all this is: Without Roy Keane we only managed to beat Saudia Arabia in the World Cup, draw a couple others and lose 2 important matches at the beginning of the Euro qualifiers to Russia and Switzerland, not to mention draw away to Alabania and get a last minute winner against them at home.

With Roy Keane we were unbeaten in the World Cup Qualifiers. Anyone who saw our matches at home to Portugal or Holland will realise his immense and irreplacable contribution to our team. We are more successful with him than without him such is the calibre of a player he is.

Great player, great performances but he does not work miracles. See Ireland's non particpation in Euro 96, WC 98, Euro 2000 for proof of that.

[scouser]

True, but even the best of players can't carry teams all the time - sometimes others have to step up to the plate, they didn't, thats why there's no Portugal for us this summer.

[scouser]

"commitment and pride when wearing the green jersey" - that pretty much sums up Roy Keane, so good to see you will be supporting him.

I disagree that success is not important, in my opinion it is everything. As was already pointed out, EVERY team will have players who are not morally perfect, but at the end of the day we are there to support the team and we should all want them to do as well as they can.

If that means that some of the players are *******, well so be it, most people are *******s anyway. If Damien Duff was the biggest arse-hole on the face of the planted, I would still want him in my team, because when it comes to football he is the best of the best , it shouldn't matter to a fan if he goes home and beats the **** out of his wife every night, what matters to a fan should be what he does on the pitch.

I disagree completely. Winning should be the your primary goal when ever you take part in any competition but if you fail to do so, then achieving your best is then important. Being morally imperfect shouldn't imply that you allow a player on your team who commits domestic violence. Thats just wrong.

I agree with you that we should want Ireland to do as well as they can, and Roy Keane is instrumental to that, but the rest is just complete tripe.

[4tothefloor]

The arguements in this thread are beginning to get a bit ridiculous now :rolleyes:

[carnstien]

I disagree completely. Winning should be the your primary goal when ever you take part in any competition but if you fail to do so, then achieving your best is then important. Being morally imperfect shouldn't imply that you allow a player on your team who commits domestic violence. Thats just wrong.

I agree with you that we should want Ireland to do as well as they can, and Roy Keane is instrumental to that, but the rest is just complete tripe.
Obvously I was taking that as an extreme example there Bambi. From a personal point of view the thought of somone like that playing on the Irish team is disgusting and such an individual belongs in jail, however, from a footballing point of view it should make no difference whatsoever.

What I was basically trying to get accross to Plastic Paddy (and obviously failed miserably) was that your personal feelings over a player should not influence your opinion on whether they should be in the team or not. What is important is their footballing ability and contribution to the overall success of the team. Obviously I am not condoning breaking the law or anything like that.

[scouser]

Obvously I was taking that as an extreme example there Bambi. From a personal point of view the thought of somone like that playing on the Irish team is disgusting and such an individual belongs in jail, however, from a footballing point of view it should make no difference whatsoever.

What I was basically trying to get accross to Plastic Paddy (and obviously failed miserably) was that your personal feelings over a player should not influence your opinion on whether they should be in the team or not. What is important is their footballing ability and contribution to the overall success of the team. Obviously I am not condoning breaking the law or anything like that.

From a footballing point of view it sometimes is important to take note of what players do when they're not on the pitch. Take before the Holland away game in the WC qualifiers when they were eating sandwiches instead of proper food. Take Saipan when they were drinking and partying with the media for the good part of nearly 2 days, just 2 weeks before the competition began. Of course we should not intrude on their personal lives, that is a must, but things like diet and keeping out of trouble are very important to events on the field. I understand your point to Plastic Paddy and am glad to see that you recognise your ill choice of an example.

[Plastic Paddy]

What I was basically trying to get accross to Plastic Paddy (and obviously failed miserably) was that your personal feelings over a player should not influence your opinion on whether they should be in the team or not. What is important is their footballing ability and contribution to the overall success of the team. Obviously I am not condoning breaking the law or anything like that.

Ferfuxsake C, if only you'd have come out and said this at the start, we could have avoided all this slanging... :rolleyes: ;) For what it's worth, I totally agree with your sentiment as you express it above. Hard to believe, I know, but I do...

:) PP

[Castlerea Celt]

Given

Cuningham O'Brien
Carr O'Shea

Miller Keane Duff

Reid

Keane Morrison

[Breen]

Is it not possible that having Roy Keane returning will damage team morale, which has to be fairly high at this point after a win and a draw against two of the highest-rated international sides in the world?