How awful are RTE's panellists?

[endabob1]

Daylight is the rule I thought

[pineapple stu]

Changed in 2005 - "Any part of his head, body or feet is nearer to his opponents' goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent (the last opponent typically being the goalkeeper). The arms are not included in this definition" - from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offside_(association_football)) from the laws of the game per FIFA.

[bennocelt]

Don't know what they're complaining about though. They've won all their games, scoring a fair quota of goals. They've only won one game 1-0. If they win the final, they deserve the trophy. I have been very impressed with them.

Not me, think they have only played well for about 20 minutes in the whole tournament. Like their cheating too, esp Robben, and if Brazil had got their act together they should have knocked them out

[mypost]

They've scored an average of 2 goals a game, they have great players in Sneijder, Robben, Van Bommel, Van Bronkhorst, and decent ones throughout the side. They've beaten teams from Europe, Asia, Africa, and South America. If they do win it, they'll deserve it.

[bennocelt]

They've scored an average of 2 goals a game, they have great players in Sneijder, Robben, Van Bommel, Van Bronkhorst, and decent ones throughout the side. They've beaten teams from Europe, Asia, Africa, and South America. If they do win it, they'll deserve it.

Yeah and they havent played well for most of those games......................

[jbyrne]

Yeah and they havent played well for most of those games......................

says a lot about the teams they have played then.
havnt they won all their qualifiers also? If they are unbeaten for the qualifiers and the finals then they are worthy winners. who has played well this wc really?

[bennocelt]

says a lot about the teams they have played then.
havnt they won all their qualifiers also? If they are unbeaten for the qualifiers and the finals then they are worthy winners. who has played well this wc really?

And the standard of football
Germany

[Stuttgart88]

says a lot about the teams they have played then.
havnt they won all their qualifiers also? If they are unbeaten for the qualifiers and the finals then they are worthy winners. who has played well this wc really?They won their first 3 games in Euro 2008, then lost to Portugal. They then won all 8 qualifiers and have won 6 out of 6 in normal time in Sth Africa. 17 wins in their last 18 competitive games is remarkable. I just posted more on the Dutch on the "shameful moments" thread so i won't repeat it here.

Wrt the general standard of football I think it's been OK. We all know that the best club teams that we watch so often are probably better than almost every international team. Gone are the days where we'd watch a WC and we'd witness a whole new footballing culture - we know alnmost everything about global football just from our armchairs these days. The beauty of international football is that the gap between good and bad is much narrower than it used to be, and I just love the fact that money can't buy success like it does in club football.

Long live international football and the world Cup. I love it.

[osarusan]

I think the argument that the dutch would be worthy winners isn't necessarily contradicting the argument that they haven't been brilliant. Any team which knocks out Brazil and beats Germany / Spain in the final will deserve it, as will either Germany or spain, as they've had good results also.

That said, neither Holland or Spain have played the kind of football I'd like to see WC winners play. In Holland's case, they haven't tried to, and Spain just haven't done it consistently. Germany, for me, have been the most exciting team to watch, and I'd like them to win it because of that.

[bennocelt]

I think the argument that the dutch would be worthy winners isn't necessarily contradicting the argument that they haven't been brilliant. Any team which knocks out Brazil and beats Germany / Spain in the final will deserve it, as will either Germany or spain, as they've had good results also.

That said, neither Holland or Spain have played the kind of football I'd like to see WC winners play. In Holland's case, they haven't tried to, and Spain just haven't done it consistently. Germany, for me, have been the most exciting team to watch, and I'd like them to win it because of that.

yeah agree 100%, pity I have all my bets lying with Spain though!!!!

[mypost]

That said, neither Holland or Spain have played the kind of football I'd like to see WC winners play.

And what kind of football is that?

The current champions, play some of the most boring football on the planet, and needed penalties to win a god awful final last time.

You don't win prizes for playing attractive football, you win them by winning your games. That's what the Dutch have done, nobody can argue with their record, and with the record they have, they have to be a formidable side.

[Charlie Darwin]

They won their first 3 games in Euro 2008, then lost to Portugal. They then won all 8 qualifiers and have won 6 out of 6 in normal time in Sth Africa. 17 wins in their last 18 competitive games is remarkable. I just posted more on the Dutch on the "shameful moments" thread so i won't repeat it here.

Wrt the general standard of football I think it's been OK. We all know that the best club teams that we watch so often are probably better than almost every international team. Gone are the days where we'd watch a WC and we'd witness a whole new footballing culture - we know alnmost everything about global football just from our armchairs these days. The beauty of international football is that the gap between good and bad is much narrower than it used to be, and I just love the fact that money can't buy success like it does in club football.

Long live international football and the world Cup. I love it.
They lost to Russia at the Euros, didn't they?

[pineapple stu]

I think the argument that the dutch would be worthy winners isn't necessarily contradicting the argument that they haven't been brilliant.
Agreed. It's like saying whoever wins the LoI this year will probably deserve it (table never lies over 36 games and all that), but they still won't have been any good.

[OwlsFan]

The Dutch tried winning it with beautiful football before and it didn't work. This time it's pragmatic football. Having lost it twice before and since all the RTE Panel will support Spain, I think I would like the Netherlands to win. The Spanish have their European Title. Other than Arjen Robben falling over ever time he is touched, I quite like them. Their fans always travel in numbers like us.

Hup Holland.

[Dodge]

Didn’t get involved in this thread as I don’t believe in over analysing the analysts. However some thoughts on the various panels.

RTE
Usual tripe. They confuse being negative for the sack of it with being “honest”. Rarely ever give anybody any credit. Giles knowledge is appalling but at least he understands the game. Dunphy’s a cartoon and I still hate O’Herlihy. Do we still need the “dumb everyman” style of presenting? Surely we’re a bit more savvy than that? I think Whelan is the worst type of cliché prone pundit. Football’s changed Ronnie, it isn’t the 80s anymore. Souness isn’t great but he at least he adds a dissenting voice every now and again. On the co-commentary front I have particular disdain for Houghton (same reason as Whelan, also very negative). I don’t mind Steven. Think he at least tries to analyse stuff. Can be entertaining in a “two drunks trying to punch each other” kind of way

BBC
Have the best analyst around in Lee Dixon IMO. Sometimes gets carried away with the jolly boys atmosphere along with Lineker, Hanson and Shearer but one of the few who gives insight to the game. The big three are horrendous. Remember when Hanson gave a ****? Shearer is at the same level as Townsend and Redknapp now. Colin Murray is an absolute tool. Another who confuses controversy for having an opinion. On the co-commentary front I’m not a fan of Lawrenson (and his refusal to budge from an opinion, however wrong it may be proven) but he’s OK. Mark Bright made the single worst comment I’ve heard watching football. On Messi “I don’t get the hype. The two or three times I’ve seen him play he hasn’t been great. Doesn’t look interested enough for me”. How can a commentator have a job having only seen Messi 2 or 3 times. And how can he be allowed spout rubbish about ANY player he’s only seen 2 or 3 times?

ITV
Worse again. Saved from total embarrassment by Southgate’s occasional good point. He argued with Townsend that maybe the Premiership isn’t all it’s cracked up to be and that English players aren’t as good as some make out (when all tried to lay blame solely on Capello’s door). Can resoprt to bland generalistions though. The rest are beyond awful; Keegan and Townsend as bad as any in my time watching TV. On the co-commentary front Beglin is quite good. Can get stuck in his opinion in a Hamliton way but generally looks at the game on its own.

Not many of the “guests” brought anything to any of the stations. Maybe Klinsmann and Seedorrf on BBC but the likes of Adeboyer, Davids etc were all rubbish.

Football is so much better when not on TV…

[shakermaker1982]

I wouldn't really disagree with anything you've said there Dodge (I cannot comment on RTE because I don't get to see it, bar watching replays on youtube) bar you describing Lawro as ok. I'd describe him as a miserable ******* ******. Other than that your spot on!

The only positives from this WC have been Klinsmann and Beglin. Beglin on ITV knows his football and it's a shame he is paired up with Tyldesley. BBC should have brought O'Neill to South Africa.

[OwlsFan]

Scene: World Cup game between Togo and Spain.

Panel: Bill O'Herlihy (Laughing Bill), John Giles (Father Time), Ronnie Whelan (When I played at Liverpool) and Eamon Dunphy (I agree with John):

Bill: (sitting in a chair 6 times to big for him) Now, I read in the Beano that Togo, also known as the Sparrow Eagles, are favourites to beat Spain by 3 clear goals. Do you agree with that Eamon?
Dunphy: That's rubbish Bill and by the way they're the Sparrow Hawks (hiding his copy of the Beano under the table).
Bill: laughs. You’re not going to give me the bird, are you Eamon?
Panel: Breaks in to laughter.
Dunphy: Although Spain are weak at the back, I know a lot about Spanish football by the way, Togo will be like a bull fighting against 11 matadors.
Bill: laughs. As the Senior Analyst, do you agree with that John?
Giles: (tugs on his jacket and attempts to be seen above the desk but still leans back) I agree with Eamon, Bill. Spain will have too much class for Togo, Bill. They are a bit weak at the back though, Bill.
Bill: Do you agree with that, Ronnie?
Whelan: (sitting upright and looking as if his piles are at him): I agree with Eamon and John. Spain will have too much class for Togo. They are a bit weak at the back though.
Bill (reading notes) : Togo beat Bophuthatswana 1-0 in a warm up game. Should we read much in to that, John?
Giles: (shifts uneasily in the chair, tugs at his jacket and looks at Dunphy): You can only beat who are put in front of you, Bill, but I wouldn’t read much in to that, Bill.
Bill: Ronnie, do you agree with the senior analyst?
Whelan: I agree with John. You can only beat who are put in front of you but I wouldn’t read much in to that.
Dunphy: Bophuthatswana are the Hartlepool of Africa, Bill. They’re rubbish.
Bill: laughs
Dunphy: Having seen a lot of Spanish football on tv when I go for a swift half or two to Davy Byrnes, I can tell you that the Spanish are a class act, although weak at the back. They’ll wipe the floor with these guys. Their manager is a clown. Their striker, Mohamed Kadir, is a cheat.
Bill: You’ve seen them play?
Dunphy: (looking uncomfortable) – Trust me Bill, they’re rubbish.
Bill: (laughs): Ronnie?
Whelan: They’ll wipe the floor with these guys. Their manager is a clown. Their striker, Mohamed Kadir, is a cheat.
Bill: John?
Giles: (tugs on jacket) - I agree with Eamon. You can only beat what is put in front of you. I know I am repeating myself but you can only beat what is put in front of you.
Dunphy: Togo have a tough midfielder. Likes to get his retaliation in first. Reminds me of John.
Panel: breaks in to hysterical laughter although they have heard this 73 times before.
Giles: preens (and tugs on his jacket).
Whelan: Togo have a tough midfielder. Likes to get his retaliation in first. Reminds me of John.
Panel: No one laughs.
Bill: We have a clip here showing Togo find it hard to keep possession (30 second clip shown of Togo giving the ball away twice in a 90 minute game).
Dunphy: If these guys give the ball away like this, Spain will murder them although they are weak at the back.
Giles: (tugs at jacket). Bill, I agree with Eamon. Tonga need to retain possession, Bill ((Dunphy: Togo, John, Togo)). Togo or whatever they are called need to get the ball down and play, Bill. I know I am repeating myself but they need to get the ball down and play, Bill
Whelan (facial expression hasn’t changed in 15 minutes). I agree with John and Eamon. If these guys give the ball away like this, Spain will murder them although they are weak at the back. They need to get the ball down and play.
Bill: Do you need to keep possession and score goals to win a game?

[Real ale Madrid]

Apres match is better.

[Stuttgart88]

They lost to Russia at the Euros, didn't they?Think you're right actually. For some reason I thought it was Portugal, with Russian ref, the one who looks like Fr. Dick Byrne.

[Junior]

Mark Bright made the single worst comment I’ve heard watching football. On Messi “I don’t get the hype. The two or three times I’ve seen him play he hasn’t been great. Doesn’t look interested enough for me”. How can a commentator have a job having only seen Messi 2 or 3 times. And how can he be allowed spout rubbish about ANY player he’s only seen 2 or 3 times?


Cant say I disagree with with most of the ITV / BBC Comments and I cant stand Mark Bright as a pundit, though I think you are being a little harsh with regards to Brights comments on Messi. Alan Davies has a weekly podcast called "Armchair World Cup" or something similiar and they ripped the pi$$ out of that as well. In fairness, he said he had only seen Messi 2 or 3 times live and in those games Messi had been quiet/ineffective - words to that effect anyway. Pretty silly comment to make after the season he's had but not quite as stupid as has been made out.

[pineapple stu]

I've never seen Messi live but I wouldn't say that I don't get the hype.

[endabob1]

The BBC should bring him in to replace Lawro. Far more accurate predictions, and more interesting to boot.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup-2010/teams/spain/7881110/World-Cup-final-Paul-the-psychic-octopus-predicts-Spain-will-beat-Holland.html

Which leads me nicely to

What's slimy, spineless and has eight arms?








The BBC's pundit panel

[geysir]

I have watched the WC via RTE, I tried BBC and ITV and lasted about 1 minute. Rarely listened to the pundits, except overhear while I was out cooking, cleaning, feeding the dog etc.
Overall I thought the coverage was, relatively speaking, top notch.

The outstanding contribution of the whole coverage came from Dayo Richardson, in all the games he was assigned to as co commentator. He interacts well with the match commentator Greg?. Dayo does his research, watches the game intensely, not always spot on about incidents, but that matters little in the overall context of his contribution. For me watching a game through a screen I want to know about all the the things I can't see, afaiaa Dayo is about the only one who paints the whole picture.
Replace Bill immediatly with Darragh. We don't need anybody to play the dumb thicko, we are not dumb thicks

[EastTerracer]

Nice to see RTE have let the Apres Match team run the studio for the 3rd Place Playoff again. Of course, when they allowed Dermot Morgan to do this in 1986 he annoyed Dunphy so much that he refused to appear on the panel for a couple of years afterwards. I'm sure Eamon has matured a little bit since then though..... maybe.

[bennocelt]

In London at the moment, but very curious to know if Dunphy is going on about his bets - he tipped Brazil and Spain at start, and England/Australia (which is fair enuff, as I did likewise), but then after the first round he started going on about Holland, and layed Spain. So what will he be "tipping" tomorrow - just like his opinions he tends to change every ten minutes...............

[IsMiseSean]

RTE should keep the Apres Match boys for tomorrow.... Had a great laugh tonight!!

[Sullivinho]

RTE should keep the Apres Match boys for tomorrow.... Had a great laugh tonight!!

The lads showing up at the end and taking the pi$$ out of themselves was priceless.

'On it's merits' :D

[Ciaran W]

Did ya see your man laughing when he was doin hamann in the ''back up'' scene. Classic ! :D

[geysir]

Dunphy giving excellent big game analysis on talk radio this morning :rolleyes:

ED: My only fear is that Webb will make a mistake which will define the game.

- Is Webb not any good?

ED: He's useless,

- Useless?

ED: yeah, all the EPL refs are useless.

[geysir]

20 minutes later Giles was interviewed,
the first words out of his mouth were, 'the referee will be the most important man tonight' :)

but he explained that Webb should be stricter than the other refs and should get a grip on Van Bommel and should have an impact on negating his physical influence.

[bennocelt]

Webb has had a decent world cup to be fair, and so have a good few refs. I think the referring has been good in this world cup, bar the usual howlers that you get in all tournaments, but most refs let the games flow, but then Italy were gone in the first round

(but Webb did make a howler in the Euros - re very dodgy peno against Poland, but maybe he has learnt from his mistake)

[Charlie Darwin]

Webb has had a decent world cup to be fair, and so have a good few refs. I think the referring has been good in this world cup, bar the usual howlers that you get in all tournaments, but most refs let the games flow, but then Italy were gone in the first round

(but Webb did make a howler in the Euros - re very dodgy peno against Poland, but maybe he has learnt from his mistake)
That was a clear penalty and he had the courage to do it in injury time too. Of course FIFA sent him home anyway so they didn't have to explain why he was the only referee to actually enforce that rule in the entire tournament.

Webb has had a dodgy enough season but he's been excellent in all his games in the World Cup.

[bennocelt]

That was a clear penalty and he had the courage to do it in injury time too. Of course FIFA sent him home anyway so they didn't have to explain why he was the only referee to actually enforce that rule in the entire tournament.

Webb has had a dodgy enough season but he's been excellent in all his games in the World Cup.

Yeah, that is if you enjoy your football at the same time as clutching your fifa referee manual. If thats the case then every game in the premiership would have loads of penos!!!!!!

[Charlie Darwin]

I do enjoy watching football while clutching my FIFA referee manual.

[OwlsFan]

TOTAL FOOTBALL = Failure


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:THYX0yWnY8ocyM:http://opiodopovo.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/marco-van-basten-holland_9072341.jpg


TOTAL FOOTBALL = Failure

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:g07d0O60ExOiOM:http://www.oleole.com/media/main/images/blogs/images/group1/subgrp12/ishethebestdutchfoot_147059.jpg

BRUTAL FOOTBALLER = Failure

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:-gtv4A-Wpew-kM:http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/bob.dunning/dunphy.jpg

I had to listen once again to hypocrisy from the RTE Panel last night. Last week they joked about how John G used to like leaving the foot in and getting in his retaliation first. Great hilarity and of course Bill joined in the laughter. Last night we had the programme almost devoted entirely to the Dutch leaving the foot in and how it was a disgrace to the game. The referee of course got it in the neck but he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. He did his best to try and keep the foul play at a minimum by handing out cards without sending anyone off which would have ruined the game as a spectacle. Giles, from the comfort of his studio wanted not one but two Dutch sent off. If that had happened I probably would have turned over to TV3 and watch OFF THE RAILS or some such. The only tackle which probably merited the sending off was the kung fu attack on Alonso but watching it live it looked like an attempt to go for the ball but slow motion shows otherwise. Should he have been sent off, probably. Would it have ruined the final after 20 minutes. Yes. Such is the dilemma a referee has to face. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Giles also made the ludicrous comment at half time that the Dutch people wouldn't want their team to win. This shows how divorced he is from how fans think and presumably he couldn't hear the fans chanting "Holland, Holland" in the background. We all remember Keane's crunching tackle against ironically the Dutch in 2003. How many of us were appalled by that? I certainly wasn't and if we had continued like that to stop their better players playing, it wouldn't have cast me a thought. There is a line ok to be drawn such as over the top tackles like Keane's on Haaland (can't remember what DUnphy said about that) and attempts to break legs etc, but when you're playing against technically much better teams, what are you supposed to do? Stand back and let them play?

I enjoyed the game last night. Could the Spanish beat the physical Dutch team? When Robben missed the one on one with the keeper I thought back to Houghton at Wembley and Duff in Paris and thought that's it for them. You just can't afford to miss such a chance against better opposition. I can count on the fingers of one hand the good finals from a football point of view I have seen. For the teams involved it's all about the prize. They are not there to entertain. They owe no duty to the couch potatoes at home.

I suspect the Dutch mentality was that they had tried winning with total football twice and had lost. Now they would try winning with a different brand of football. It didn't work. It wasn't pretty and there will no doubt be recriminations in the Dutch camp. If they had won, such recriminations would have been forgotton and the win would have gone down in the history book. Such is sport.

Congratulations to Spain. Puyol was a lucky man to be on the pitch at the end (if Robben had gone down when he tried to foul him) but they stuck to their game plan and deservedly won the game. Pity they didn't meet Brazil in the Final. The Dutch feel cheated (the RTE Panel didn't know what they were moaning about at the end - the corner not given and the possible foul on the Dutch sub leading up to the goal) but they were fortunate not to have played most of the game with 10 men) so I don't think they can have any complaints.

Next stop Brazil.

[geysir]

We all remember Keane's crunching tackle against ironically the Dutch in 2003.

But some us have better memories:D

[Charlie Darwin]

Giles also made the ludicrous comment at half time that the Dutch people wouldn't want their team to win.
To be fair, I've spoken to a few Dutch people and the general consensus is that they'd have taken a win but would have moaned about it for the next 100 years. They're football fans over there and don't like it when it's not played the right way.

[OwlsFan]

But some us have better memories:D

:o

There is no doubt most would have taken the win, especially following on two previous defeats.

[eamo1]

Does anyone else think Ray Houghton is a brutal co-commentator?He changes his opinion every 10 minutes during a game and points out the obvious too,adds nothing to it i dont think.Yes i know he's a legend but i just cant listen to him.
I spoke to a Dutch friend today who is embarassed the way they kicked everything in sight last night.

[OwlsFan]

Does anyone else think Ray Houghton is a brutal co-commentator?He changes his opinion every 10 minutes during a game and points out the obvious too,adds nothing to it i dont think.Yes i know he's a legend but i just cant listen to him .

Ray is a bit of a moaner as a co-commentator and seldom has anything positive to say. I generally listen to the BBC with Lawrenson as the co-commentator to get away from Hamilton who thinks a game is all over once someone scores. I like Lawrenson's amusing quips although I know he is not everyone's cup of tea.


I spoke to a Dutch friend today who is embarassed the way they kicked everything in sight last night.

This is an e-mail from a Dutch friend:

You’re right, I assume you mean with tactics the rough play? I completely agree where De Jong is concerned. It is not an excuse, but I personally also thought that the English referee was a disgrace in that he completely fell for the acting of Iniesta (we use the German word “Schwalbe” for this) and was much too soon paving the pitch with yellow cards, especially for the Dutch. But then this was the tournament of the referee errors, which are all to clear with our modern techniques; I really hope something will happen now.

I did not think either of the sides was really stronger, so then you should use the sparse chances you have. And somebody has to win in the end, it is only very disappointing that again the Dutch were not the lucky ones.

OK, we’re still world’s second best team, and above the eastern neighbours, but that is not really a comfort

I see the Dutch press are giving the referee a right roasting. It is always interesting how a game can be viewed totally different through biased eyes.

[Charlie Darwin]

As a neutral I though Webb handled the game well. I didn't think the Dutch were as brutish as everyone's making out nor did I think the Spanish playacted any more than usual. I just thought it was a good contest that bubbled over a couple of times.

[Dodge]

As a neutral I though Webb handled the game well... I just thought it was a good contest that bubbled over a couple of times.

if he had made the right decisions early on it wouldn't have bubbled over. players sensed his weakness

[endabob1]

As a neutral I though Webb handled the game well. I didn't think the Dutch were as brutish as everyone's making out nor did I think the Spanish playacted any more than usual. I just thought it was a good contest that bubbled over a couple of times.

I would agree 100% with that.


if he had made the right decisions early on it wouldn't have bubbled over. players sensed his weakness

Which decisions did he get so wrong early on? He handed out 14 yellow cards, apart from the De Jong high boot which could have been a straight red I think the Dutch are looking for excuses.

[Dodge]

Of course the Dutch are looking for excuses

De Jong and van bommel should've both been sent off within 30 minutes. Webb (as ever) was "afraid to ruin the game" by sending someone off. Even though he contributed to it by not doing his job properly.

[Charlie Darwin]

if he had made the right decisions early on it wouldn't have bubbled over. players sensed his weakness
He booked 4 players in the first half hour...

[Dodge]

He booked 4 players in the first half hour...

yes, but should sent 2 of them off

[Charlie Darwin]

De Jong, maybe, but there was nothing malicious in it. Van Bommel, no. He equally could have sent of Xavi and Iniesta.

[Dodge]

Perhaps. Kind of backs up my argument that he lost control of the ame though. If he sent one of the Dutch players off, I don't think we'd have seen half as much niggly fouls

[Charlie Darwin]

Sure if he sent everyone off there'd be no fouls. I just think referees should err on the side of caution and, to be honest, Spain were just as guilty of breaking up the game by diving and going down easily. I could understand it if the Dutch fouls were destructive to Spain's free-flowing attacking game but for the most part the Spaniards were comfortable with it. I think it would be madness to be handing out cards for fouls when Spain are just passing the ball laterally around the middle of the park.

[Dodge]

Last post on this are we're miles off topic BUT

What has Spain's style of play got to do with anything (or Holland's for that matter)? if a foul merits a red card, the ref should produce one. if it merits a yellow card, he should produce one. its the world cup final and he is supposed to be at the height of his profession. he should be strong enough to handle the game and make tough decision if they're needed

IMO he wasn't



Anyway back to billo and the boys...