Joseph Ndo - Work permits

[Dodge]

Article in todays Irish Daily MAil (not online apparently) that Sligo's application for a work permit for Ndo has been complicated by the fact that according to records his last employer was St Patrick's Athletic

Any Bohs fans think there's any truth in this? I mean if he was ineligible, they'd have to be docked 3 points for every game he played. Wonder would Shamrock Rovers be affected for his period on loan?

I'd like to think that the FAI checked for this (as they must provide a letter to the Clubs applying for the work permit) but who can be sure of anything?

EDIT; Thanks to a Bohs fan who typed this up for their board


JOSEPH Ndo could face imprisonment for unwittingly playing in the League of Ireland without a valid work permit — and the midfielder's former club, Bohemians, could be fined for a breach of the Employment Permits Act.

Ndo, 33, played for Bohs last season when his work permit, which runs until February 2011, stated that St Patrick's Athletic, his previous club, were his legal employers. According to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment 'all employment permits issued are employer and location specific and are only valid for the employer and in the occupation named on the permit'. By playing for Bohs last season when permitted only to pay for St Pat's, the Cameroon midfielder could be open to prosecution under Section 19 of the 2006 Act which carries penalties of a 12-month sentence and a 5,000 fine. Ndo's permit problem surfaced when Sligo Rovers went to register him as their player for the 2010 season.

Under a new League rule, all non-EEA nationals must produce a valid work permit to play in the competition this season. Ironically, had the League decided no work permit was required, Ndo could probably have played for Sligo without anyone's antennae getting twitchy in the Department. As it is, by bringing in what they call best practice, the League risks losing one of its best midfielders. PFAI chief Stephen McGuinness last night called for League clubs and the FAI to rally around Ndo's cause.

'The League needs players like Joseph Ndo. He's a fantastic professional and there has to be a way to resolve this,' he added.

Hope mods don't mind the full article but can't reference it any other way...

[Longfordian]

When did the League rule officially requiring a work permit come in? Article says it's a new rule?. Amateurish stuff from Bohs that they didn't check that out tbh. It would be a pity if Sligo and Ndo suffered as a result

[Dodge]

Regardless of the league rule (and I wasn't aware of any changes this season)

bohs couldn't legally employ him without a work permit, so his Standard Playing contract would be null & void, meaning his registration couldn't be completed

I'll stress again that this is from the Daily Mail but it seems to have been confirmed by that McGuinness quote

TBH I wouldn't have too much sympathy if it turns out Bohs didn't do everything by the book

[peadar1987]

Bohs shouldn't be docked points, seeing as he was only employed as a barman.

[SkStu]

I mean if he was ineligible, they'd have to be docked 3 points for every game he played. Wonder would Shamrock Rovers be affected for his period on loan?


Under a new League rule, all non-EEA nationals must produce a valid work permit to play in the competition this season.

the FAI cannot retrospectively dock us points for a rule they only introduced this season.

If we get fined for breaching the act, then we get fined for breaching the act. In my opinion, this will only impact us if the Department decides to pursue legal action against Ndo and Bohs.

[Dodge]

See above SkStu (and the Chris Turner case). If he wasn't allowed by employed by Bohs, his contract was null & void and his registration was therefore null & void

The need for a work permit is not new

[SkStu]

the rule is new Dodge.

I firmly believe we will not be docked ANY points for this. Nor will Rovers, if it applies to loan moves.

[Dodge]

The rule is superceded by the law. He can't sign a contract because he can't be employed.

[SkStu]

The rule is superceded by the law. He can't sign a contract because he can't be employed.

but he did sign a contract. Only this season has a valid work permit been required by the FAI. Theyre not going to dock points from (possibly Shels depending when his WP was granted) Rovers and us because Joseph Ndo was in breach of the law and it took them until his 3rd (possibly 4th) club to catch it.

What about his spells with Shelbourne and Rovers - do you think the FAI are going to go back and revise all the relevant results over the previous x number of seasons? Dream on.

[Dodge]

Why am I dreaming? Pats have nothing to gain. You think I want a league handed to Rovers ffs?!

But regardless of how many clubs are involved; every company who employs a citizen from outside the EEA needs to obtain a work permit for him/her. To obtain this in football, the FAI must provide a letter to the Dept of Enterprise, Trade & Employment

without the work permit, the employee is working illegally

As above if Bohs had one for him then it's not an issue. If, however, they were playing a footballer who couldn't be employed by them, then they should be punished with points deductions for each game he played. (You'll note the italics)

Trust me, as a Pats fan, pleading ignorence gets you nowhere

EDit; Here's the official guidelines for work permits http://www.entemp.ie/labour/workpermits/sportsprofessionals.htm

[dublinred]

Why am I dreaming? Pats have nothing to gain. You think I want a league handed to Rovers ffs?!

But regardless of how many clubs are involved; every company who employs a citizen from outside the EEA needs to obtain a work permit for him/her. To obtain this in football, the FAI must provide a letter to the Dept of Enterprise, Trade & Employment

without the work permit, the employee is working illegally

As above if Bohs had one for him then it's not an issue. If, however, they were playing a footballer who couldn't be employed by them, then they should be punished with points deductions for each game he played.

Trust me, as a Pats fan, pleading ignorence gets you nowhere

EDit; Here's the official guidelines for work permits http://www.entemp.ie/labour/workpermits/sportsprofessionals.htm

Heard this last week via sligored on april 1st thought it was a wind-up , europe still on the horizon for us if bohs get the points deduction , can of worms but realistically cant see anything happening bohs as FAI probably sanctioned the transfer.

[DRDoc]

Dodge seems to be on a crusade

[danthesaint]

ya never know dodge, heres hoping they get the points deduction and we win the league on a technicality. ;);)

[Dodge]

Dodge seems to be on a crusade

Not really. As I said Pats would have nothing to gain from it. Posted initially looking for confirmation from Bohs fans. Seems some of them (elsewhere and here) have no clue about employment legislation. No harm in informing people

Have said all along that the Daily mail might be wrong, and he might have been legit.

[Réiteoir]

Dodge seems to be on a crusade

Maybe they can pass Bohs on their rubber medals they've got ;)

[Ezeikial]

This is clearly a cast-iron case for Sean Connors red card in the opening match of last season to be rescinded.

BTW why is Seanie no longer blamed for everything from global warming to the price of the pint? Foot.ie posters are gone soft!!

[kdjaC]

His 1st permitwas for 3 years, when he was with shels they used the permit he got with pats.

Shels never applied for a permit for him until our one ran out. Seems strange you need to get a new permit if your still paying PRSI/TAX ie work change rather than when it runs out.

fairly sure he has permits and actually doesnt need them as he can be an irish national having worked/lived in ireland for 6 of the last 8 years.

[Dodge]

His 1st permitwas for 3 years, when he was with shels they used the permit he got with pats.

Shels never applied for a permit for him until our one ran out. Seems strange you need to get a new permit if your still paying PRSI/TAX ie change rather than when it runs out.
I can absolutely guarentee you his first one wasn't for three years (as first time applicants are never giving more than one year)

The permit is to the Employer, not the Employee.

[Longfordian]

Not that Dodge needs backing up but once you change employers you absolutely need a new work permit and his subsequent employers after he left Pats the first time would have needed to apply for new permits. It's up to the FAI to decide if league rules were breached but it looks to me that the clubs concerned and Ndo are open to sanction from the Department. Ndo will probably head off abroad and nobody will pursue him too hard but the clubs could have fines to pay.

[kdjaC]

I can absolutely guarentee you his first one wasn't for three years (as first time applicants are never giving more than one year)

The permit is to the Employer, not the Employee.

100% has 3 years on it references his contract as the reason , his next one was submitted by Shels 3 years later (of wouldnt it be sweet if it was only for one year).

lad who works for me is from pakistan and here 9 years in a row and has to get one every year, is it a different rule for different countires?


typical public services :D

[Dodge]

Defo one year. Work permit is a standard document. It can't reference anything

[kdjaC]

Defo one year. Work permit is a standard document. It can't reference anything

So just to be sure on this Pats are the only team who registered and employed Ndo properly during his 7 year stay here.

Shels Bohs and Rovers didnt check that he was properly able to work here. Is 3 points per game still the going rate?

Swings and roundabouts :D

[Longfordian]

An easy way out for the FAI if they have to do something is that post 2007 it's been a different league and they would have no authority to go back beyond that. So basically it's just Bohs need to fret I think. Possibly Rovers can't remember when he was there

[Dodge]

Well there's no guarentees that his 2nd spell at Pats was legit either ;)

[El-Pietro]

so does that make Cork City the 2004 Champions?

[Longfordian]

I'm not liking the chances of every club having adhered to the exact work permit requirements come to think of it considering the amount of randomers that have come and gone in various clubs. Though if the question was never asked under the rules or on a registration form Im not sure there can be much done about it now outside of a court challenge from someone.

[SkStu]

Why am I dreaming? Pats have nothing to gain. You think I want a league handed to Rovers ffs?!

figure of speech ffs. Another way of saying it is get real.


But regardless of how many clubs are involved; every company who employs a citizen from outside the EEA needs to obtain a work permit for him/her. To obtain this in football, the FAI must provide a letter to the Dept of Enterprise, Trade & Employment

without the work permit, the employee is working illegally

As above if Bohs had one for him then it's not an issue. If, however, they were playing a footballer who couldn't be employed by them, then they should be punished with points deductions for each game he played. (You'll note the italics)

right go and get your knickers in a twist over this and then come back to me when Bohs get a points deduction and you can say "i told you so". It aint going to happen. Ditto for Shels and Rovers. The guilty clubs likely wont be fined either in my opinion but its more of a possibility than the points deduction your talking about.

[pineapple stu]

so does that make Cork City the 2004 Champions?
Posts like this are why I love this league. :)

Sligo not having much luck in the transfer front this season, it seems.

[danthesaint]

Bohs girl in work posted this to me

Fella on the bohs board came up with the section 24 of the law where it states:
24.—

(1) If the employment of a foreign national pursuant to an employment permit (other than a permit granted on foot of an application by a foreign national) is terminated by the employer or the holder of the permit or otherwise, for whatever reason, ceases, there shall be surrendered to the Minister, within 4 weeks from the date of termination or cessation—
(a) by the holder — the original of the permit, and
*by the employer — the copy of the permit.*

so that mean pats can be in the sh1ts too??

[The Observer]

We had a couple of people from South Africa in our office up until about 6months ago, both needed new permits when they were offered their respective contracts as they were leaving their original employer in the state, one had 6 months left on their original permit, the other had 2 months, when we enquired it was made very clear to us that both needed new permits due to the change in employer, now i must point out there was no problems whatsoever in obtaining the new permits, it was merely red tape that had to be dealt with, i have no idea if this will have an impact on previous results (sounds like more trouble than its worth to be honest) so i would imagine that this will be just another wake up call for the FAI when dealing with future registrations for non EU players, going back & cleaning up messes of seasons gone by sounds like something the FAI would avoid like the plague.

[Dodge]

right go and get your knickers in a twist over this and then come back to me when Bohs get a points deduction and you can say "i told you so". It aint going to happen. Ditto for Shels and Rovers. The guilty clubs likely wont be fined either in my opinion but its more of a possibility than the points deduction your talking about.
Plenty of employers get fined every week for ilegally employing foreign nationals. And if you read my posts its clearly implied I don't think any points deductions will happen. But IF he was employed illegally, then points deductions should happen.

Dan, Pats would only be liable for sanction by ET&E if his contract was terminated. If it expired, the work permit expires with it. his registration would not be affected. I'd be fairly certain we'd be OK with work permits as if you remember correctly we had to wait some time before we were allowed play Ryan Guy or Lance Friesz but obviously if the 2nd Ndo spell was done illegally we'd be open to the same penalties as anyone else found to be illegally employing and/or playing him.

[Dodge]

he'll never play for sligo rovers so obviously enough?

Why not? As long as they follow the rules there won't be a problem. I presume they've already been through this with Boco?

[de bowez]

Jailtime would be the complication according to the rag that printed the story.

[sligorover]

thought there might be complications for us now this has come about, if true of course, which it seems to be after mcguinness was quoted. rumours around here are he might play tonight v bray, guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Papers do make up quotes from time to time so theres some hope its bull. Why has it not been reported elsewhere if true?

[Dodge]

Jailtime would be the complication according to the rag that printed the story.
There's no chance he'll face jailtime. None whatsoever. For non high profile cases, they're deported.

[de bowez]

Deportation would make it even harder for Sligo to play him. They really aren't having much luck signing an attacking midfielder.

[pineapple stu]

I'm pretty sure there was a case in England where a player played for a club while in jail; he was tagged and released for match days.

Not sure if anyone's managed to play for a club while deported though...

[Spudulika]

I have experience of this from working in a number of countries abroad and from colleagues in Ireland who were looking for permits. They're only ever year to year unless you get permanent resident status which may or may not entitle you to work. Even still if it is employer specific then you need to get a new one for each employer. If he got permanent resident status (unlikely) then he is legally entitled to work here, there and everywhere within the limits of time and such. If his permit was specific to a certain employer, then he is not allowed work for another without changing the permit. This falls under the law of the land, and not regulated with a blind eye. However the Rovers matter is different - under the rules, the club loaning the player pay a fee to his club, who continue to pay him, and as a result he is still employed by the original club. Rovers don't employ or pay the player directly. Rovers are free from difficulty.

However if he is contracted to a new employer while still retaining his old permit, then this is breaking the law of the land and criminal proceedings should follow. It is up to the football governing body to decide what can happen. I don't know of a certain precedent, but there are a range of possibilities. The games involving that player are ruled 3-0 losses for his team, the team get fined, the player is jailed and the club are taken to court by Dept. Enterprise and un-employment.

It seems like an attempt to wing it (typical Irish way) could have gone seriously wrong.

[de bowez]

Would this not have been noticed when a special visa was obtained for the game in Salzburg? Or by the tax office?

[Ash]

I'm pretty sure there was a case in England where a player played for a club while in jail; he was tagged and released for match days.


Was that not Edmundo in Brazil ... he was allowed train and play games but had to go back to "Night Prison" after

[Dodge]

Would this not have been noticed when a special visa was obtained for the game in Salzburg? Or by the tax office?

No such thing as a special visa.

Non nationals living and working in Ireland with a work permit have a number of obligations. Once they receive the work permit, they must register with these people http://www.inis.gov.ie/ who will then give them "permission to remain" in Ireland. This takes the form of a stamp in their passport, and an Immigration card. it is valid until the end of their work permit.

If they wish to leave the country an re-enter (for whatever reason holiday, work abroad, trip "home") they must have a re-entry visa given to them by the same people. All re-entry visas are issued until the date of their permission to remain expires. Most non nationals living in Dublin get their Immigrattion stamp and visa sorted on the same day. If he had a 2 year work permit (which is possible after initial one year is issued), then the immigration authorities would not have any dealings with him.

Before his first job he'd apply for PPS number (He'd need to show work permit, immigration stuff etc). As long as tax is beeing paid on each employmee, that Department would not be alerted to where the employee is from, or what his status is. its all just fed into a system.

Joseph would've needed a Schengen visa issued to him to play in Austria but as long as he had his Irish immigration details as above, that wouldn't have been a problem

[osarusan]

Deportivo Sligo.

[A face]

Deportivo Sligo.

Ha ha :D

[marinobohs]

Defo one year. Work permit is a standard document. It can't reference anything

Dodge is correct with regard to work permits almost always operating on a one year basis and on the point that each change of employer requires a new work permit - permits are issued to the employer to employ a non national not to the non national - this is not most peoples view but true none the less. When he transferred to Bohs a new work permit should have been sought by the new employer (not sure on his loan spell at shams as Pats may well have continued to be his primary employer, this would also negate any need for pats to reapply when his loan period expired)
If he did not have a valid work permit then both he (emplyee) and the employer(s) involved are in breach of the legislation and liable for prosecution should the department decide to pursue the matter. Given the fact that there was no intent to breach the legislation (PAYE, PRSI etc paid) and given the high profile of the case (hardly working under cover or illegally) the department may not pursue retrospectively.
I presume the League accepted and ratified his registration at each club and therefore see it as unlikely that they will go back on the issue - they were wrong not to check at the time.
Unfortunate that Sligo end up getting the worst deal as they were in no way responsible for the debacle. I would suggest in future that all applications to League for ratification of contracts of overseas players attach a copy of the work permit.

[Dodge]

Given the fact that there was no intent to breach the legislation (PAYE, PRSI etc paid) and given the high profile of the case (hardly working under cover or illegally) the department may not pursue retrospectively.
I presume the League accepted and ratified his registration at each club and therefore see it as unlikely that they will go back on the issue - they were wrong not to check at the time.


Echos of 2002 there...

[Réiteoir]

So just to be sure on this Pats are the only team who registered and employed Ndo properly during his 7 year stay here.

Shels Bohs and Rovers didnt check that he was properly able to work here. Is 3 points per game still the going rate?

Swings and roundabouts :D

Club A
32 registration forms sent
2 with faxed copy
2 with no players date of birth
1 with no address for player
2 forms with no end of contract details
19 forms with no professional cintract details

Club B
50 players registered
Majority have no fax copies
Some forms signed by person other than secretary
1 form with no players date of birth
Couple of forms came in envelopes
No financial details on forms for three players
One form registered in August 1999 - no indication form was sent by registered post

Club C
38 registration forms sent
Only 10 have faxed copies

Club D
66 players registered 1 has faxed copy
11 players forms have no witness address on them
1 player form has no address, no place of birth, no date of birth
7 forms for professionals have no contract details
Forms for 6 players registered in July 2000 were posted by Swiftpost, not registered post

Club E
52 players registered 10 forms have no fax copies
2 forms sent in May 2001 have no registered post stickers and no envelope to indicate they came by registered post
1 form not signed by secretary although witness section filled in
1 form has no player date of birth
1 form has no previous club entered
Number of forms sent in envelopes

Club F
39 registration forms sent
36 fax copies
1 form with no address of witness
1 player registered as an amateur with contract details filled in

Club G
41 players registered
23 forms have fax copies
19 forms show no last club
1 form has no player date of birth
3 forms have no date of player signature

Club H
55 registration forms sent
11 forms have no fax copies
10 forms have no name completed for the player consent section and no date for the season being registered
1 form has no address of witness to player signature

Club I
41 registration forms sent
4 from August 2000 are not stamped by registered post
4 other forms sent June 2000 have a photocopy of the same registered post envelope attached
7 forms have faxed copies
2 forms do not have contract details on them
8 forms list no previous club
1 form not signed by by club secretary although witness ssection complete
No original form can be found for one player

Club J
54 registration forms sent
16 with faxed copies

Club K
60 registration forms sent
21 were posted individually to the League in August 2001 by unregistered post
10 forms have faxed copies
No date of birth for any player

Club L
46 registration forms sent
27 have faxed copies
1 professional form does not have contract details

Club M
42 registration forms sent
6 with faxed copies
2 forms with no professional details
5 forms with no date of players signature

Club N
31 players registered
None accompanied by fax copy of form
Most forms not individually registered post-marked
1 player [reg August 1999], 1 Player [reg June 1998], ome player [reg October 1999] - form not stamped by registered post
and no envelope
8 forms from season before this season not registered with the League within four days of the player signing as the rule then required

Club O
43 players registered
9 forms had faxed copies

Club P
55 registration forms sent
14 have faxed copies
8 professional forms do not have contract details on them
3 forms have no end of contract details on them

Club Q
48 players registered
1 form with fax copy

Club R
54 players registered
All with registered post mark on form
2 forms with fax copy
5 professional forms do not have contract details on them

Club S
50 players registered
4 forms with fax copy

Club T
37 registration forms sent
4 forms with fax copies
2 forms with insufficient place of birth details

Club U
59 registration forms sent
23 with fax copy
25 professional forms do not have contract details on them
5 forms not registered with the League within the four days of the player signing as the rule then required

[marinobohs]

Echos of 2002 there...

Eh no, Bohs fulfilled all the requirements put forward by the FAI at the time. My point is that they cannot now add additional requirements not sought then. on that basis what rules have Bohs breached ?(all of this is predicated on the accuracy of the original claims RE work permit).
I presume your reference to 2002 is the marley affair where St Pats did not fulfill the requirements.
Comment RE "intent" related to the possibility of Dept ET&E pursuing the matter.

[Dodge]

I presume your reference to 2002 is the marley affair where St Pats did not fulfill the requirements.
Comment RE "intent" related to the possibility of Dept ET&E pursuing the matter.
My comment was that intednig to do the right thing is not the same as doing the right thing. Rules are rules and all that. As i said if Bohs illegally employed him, his contract is null & void. Lots of ifs there, obviously and too messy for the FAI to deal with

Cheers Reitoir. Remember Roy Dooney's report well.

[marinobohs]

My comment was that intednig to do the right thing is not the same as doing the right thing. Rules are rules and all that. As i said if Bohs illegally employed him, his contract is null & void. Lots of ifs there, obviously and too messy for the FAI to deal with

Cheers Reitoir. Remember Roy Dooney's report well.

Agree with you that Bohs may have issues with Dept ET&E if no work permit but doubt the FAI will be chasing up. as mentioned here in other context the relationship between employer/employee contracts and registration with the FAI/League is complex and not always the same.
Glad to see Pats fan accepting "rules are rules" concept - not what the club claimed in 2002 !

[sligoman]

I presume they've already been through this with Boco?He's from France, has French and Benin passport.