Sporting Fingal Gone Belly Up

[bingoballs]

No disrespect to Fingal fans but I wouldn't be sorry to see them going belly up. Whats their average home attendance? When they went 2-1 up against Shams in a Dublin derby in Tallaght you would imagine their fans would have gone mad, all eight of them did alright! Surely they are relying on European qualification to fund themselves for next season. They have a handful of fans and should they qualify for Europe, they would only be depriving Sligo Rovers or Pats fans a European adventure that their seasons truely deserve.

Are you seriously saying that Sligo and St Pats deserve a euro spot just because they have more fans? Trust me, there was more than eight fans going mad :) Are you still upset that Sporting Fingal won the cup last year? time to move on me thinks :)

Mod edit - "bitter" rubbish removed
Eh no, I am just of the opinion that two clubs who have performed admirably throughout the season, without the aid of a sugar daddy, relying on the revenue generated from a strong fan base, are more deserving of European football than your good selves. Its not personal or bitter, its just my opinion. For what its worth, I think its a shame ye don't have more fans because ye play good football

[Lamper.sffc]

For me its not about the money and who does and doesnt deserve a Euro spot, its about the players on the pitch and the fans in the stand (no matter how many). You get what you deserve in a league format and all the fingal fans who have supported the club all season deserve european football if the club achieve it. Not because of money but because thats where the team finished and as fans we would deserve it too just like any other fans.

By your logic then Bray should get european football too. Because if you are talking about performing admirably then these guys would possible deserve it more than Pats or Sligo. But we all know thats not how it works.

[Spudulika]

He wasn't pedantic, Spud, he was right. If you want to complain about the lack of a football pyramid in Ireland, do so, but don't use the wrong word for it and then bitch when people don't understand you.

I stand corrected on the use of the wrong word, I should have said "allegedly" open league, which would get me around all areas. The lack of a pyramid in Ireland makes the game unattractive for all sorts of reasons, though maybe it's just hard experience of trying to amke sense of the situation that makes me see it this way. I guess if people wanted it to change, there would be a grass roots upheaval, however it seems (as stated in the Indo so it must be true) the FAI boss has the support and tender love of the grassroots so all is well in the state of Denmark.

[BonnieShels]

I haven't commented in this thread in a long while since County-gate.
The thread has kind off gone off topic again as to who deserves to be where in the LOI. That is a irrelevant.
We all wanna see well-supported teams in a well-supported viable league. We don't want boom-to-bust teams. I am aware of the irony of saying that as a Shels fan. :)
There was an initial concern as to the fact that Gannon is being sucked into NAMA. That is a fact, now the other issues that have yet to be resolved are the finances for 2011 finalised or near to being finalised?
Having been involved in the draft budget process for DLR in the last 2 months I can tell ye Fingal CoCo are gonna be absolutely smashed in 2011 and I think we can say goodbye to serious involvement from them in that case. This is heresay but I cannot imagine that they're gonna get a windfall from the Local Government fund... though maybe the residents of Whitestown and Fortlawn might pay their rent arrears? :O That could do it!
Surely as this is Ireland and as nothing at all is a secret here... something must have leaked?

[Réiteoir]

Still a good achievement for the clubs who have yet to be relegated:)

I'd be wanting to point out that fact on a large banner - mainly to be displayed at all games any club which qualifies takes part in up and down the country.

[Big Chief]

We all wanna see well-supported teams in a well-supported viable league. We don't want boom-to-bust teams.

I couldn't agree more. There are teams in this league who have little or no support and simply aren't viable. Sporting Fingal are one of the most obvious examples. If and when the sugar daddy funding is removed they will quite quickly cease to exist. They will go the way of umpteen teams before them and doubtless plenty more will fail to learn the lessons and go the same way in the future.

[White Horse]

An interesting profile of the owner of St. Patrick's Athletic whose property company has loans in default to taxpayer owned Anglo Irish Bank.

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/he-reached-for-the-sky-2382056.html

[marinobohs]

An interesting profile of the owner of St. Patrick's Athletic whose property company has loans in default to taxpayer owned Anglo Irish Bank.

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/he-reached-for-the-sky-2382056.html

Over to you Dodge, but I Think Pats are self sufficent and not depending on funds from kelleher.

[passerrby]

I couldn't agree more. There are teams in this league who have little or no support and simply aren't viable. Sporting Fingal are one of the most obvious examples. If and when the sugar daddy funding is removed they will quite quickly cease to exist. They will go the way of umpteen teams before them and doubtless plenty more will fail to learn the lessons and go the same way in the future.

but there are well supported teams who are not viable while there are teams who are not well suported who are viable

[BonnieShels]

but there are well supported teams who are not viable while there are teams who are not well suported who are viable

Fingal fall into neither category.

[The Lep]

I haven't commented in this thread in a long while since County-gate.
The thread has kind off gone off topic again as to who deserves to be where in the LOI. That is a irrelevant.
We all wanna see well-supported teams in a well-supported viable league. We don't want boom-to-bust teams. I am aware of the irony of saying that as a Shels fan. :)
There was an initial concern as to the fact that Gannon is being sucked into NAMA. That is a fact, now the other issues that have yet to be resolved are the finances for 2011 finalised or near to being finalised?
Having been involved in the draft budget process for DLR in the last 2 months I can tell ye Fingal CoCo are gonna be absolutely smashed in 2011 and I think we can say goodbye to serious involvement from them in that case. This is heresay but I cannot imagine that they're gonna get a windfall from the Local Government fund... though maybe the residents of Whitestown and Fortlawn might pay their rent arrears? :O That could do it!
Surely as this is Ireland and as nothing at all is a secret here... something must have leaked?

Why are you posting on a football forum that the residents of Whitestown and Fortlawn have rent arrears?

[BonnieShels]

Dear lord Jesus. Are you for real? The realities of life really sometimes come out of the blue for you.
I'll go briefly off topic for your benefit. As the Fingal CoCo are landlords of a lot of properties there you can be almost guaranteed that there is a chance that some of them owe rent. That Is a fact of life. I could say the same for tenants in Ballyfermot, Ballymun or Neilstown... but as these are in different council areas it wouldn't directly translate as revenue for Fingal Coco. I don't work for Fingal coco so making an observation such as the one I did is one made based on probability and founded in a reality of Ireland 2010.

Now answer my question, has yer budget been finalised for 2011 or are ye still drafting?

[dfx-]

I'd be wanting to point out that fact on a large banner - mainly to be displayed at all games any club which qualifies takes part in up and down the country.

Nah it'd be offensive

[The Lep]

Dear lord Jesus. Are you for real? The realities of life really sometimes come out of the blue for you.
I'll go briefly off topic for your benefit. As the Fingal CoCo are landlords of a lot of properties there you can be almost guaranteed that there is a chance that some of them owe rent. That Is a fact of life. I could say the same for tenants in Ballyfermot, Ballymun or Neilstown... but as these are in different council areas it wouldn't directly translate as revenue for Fingal Coco. I don't work for Fingal coco so making an observation such as the one I did is one made based on probability and founded in a reality of Ireland 2010.

Now answer my question, has yer budget been finalised for 2011 or are ye still drafting?

You made out that residents in those estates have rent arrears when they might not have . Even if they do then it has nothing to do with the thread seeing that Sporting Fingal isnt funded by the money collected from rent.

[White Horse]

Even if they do then it has nothing to do with the thread seeing that Sporting Fingal isnt funded by the money collected from rent.

That is not how local government works. Money from different sources is not ring-fenced, it is part of general revenue and is used for a vast array of spending.

If Sporting Fingal is subsidised by Fingal Council, defaulting local authority rents could make the continuation of that subsidy more difficult.

[Lamper.sffc]

That is not how local government works. Money from different sources is not ring-fenced, it is part of general revenue and is used for a vast array of spending.

If Sporting Fingal is subsidised by Fingal Council, defaulting local authority rents could make the continuation of that subsidy more difficult.

Its a miss conception. They help but not in terms of financing the club directly.

[redobit]

Its a miss conception. They help but not in terms of financing the club directly.


Really - not a penny, didnt realise. So are your eggs even more in one basket than I had thought ?

[The Lep]

We have fruit not eggs and its nice fruit at that :)

[Lamper.sffc]

Really.

The council helped in the setting up of the club and where the ones who did a lot of research into how a club like ours could be run. They helped get the various sponsors in to help run the club and will in time be responsible hopefully for building a small sports complex and stadium that will see Fingal have a proper football ground.

As for the eggs thingy, I dont know tbh. Time will tell I guess.

[redobit]

The Man from Delmonte is f**ked tho. :)

[The Lep]

He could be at this stage but i was never a lover of delmonte anyway :)

[SkStu]

Its a miss conception..

she sounds kinky.

[BonnieShels]

So again... my question, I'll phrase it carefully...

Is there any knowledge amongst the Fingal fans about the finances for 2011 or shall we continue to operate on hearsay?

[oldfan]

Really.

The council helped in the setting up of the club and where the ones who did a lot of research into how a club like ours could be run. They helped get the various sponsors in to help run the club and will in time be responsible hopefully for building a small sports complex and stadium that will see Fingal have a proper football ground.

As for the eggs thingy, I dont know tbh. Time will tell I guess.

There will be NO MONEY for building new Stadia.
Have ye heard the news this evening ....€8 or 9 BILLION to be saved in the Public Finances.

[The Lep]

Yes, there is knowledge amongst the fingal fans and yes you can continue to go with hearsay as usual :)

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

So again... my question, I'll phrase it carefully...

Is there any knowledge amongst the Fingal fans about the finances for 2011 or shall we continue to operate on hearsay?

And why should we change the habit of a lifetime?

[BonnieShels]

Yes, there is knowledge amongst the fingal fans and yes you can continue to go with hearsay as usual :)

Now stage two of removing the blood from the stone...

Would some of the aforementioned Fingal fans care to divulge any of the said relative information to the rest of us without resorting to the defensive?

If not for my sanity then would some of ye please think of the children?

[BonnieShels]

And why should we change the habit of a lifetime?

Just cos... nothing more nothing less.

[Lamper.sffc]

Now stage two of removing the blood from the stone...

Would some of the aforementioned Fingal fans care to divulge any of the said relative information to the rest of us without resorting to the defensive?

If not for my sanity then would some of ye please think of the children?

Bonnie, take a chill pill. We know a certain amount but if you are asking fans do they know what the finances of the club are for next year then you are asking the ridiculous. Of course we dont know for sure who does.
Oh and by the way there is no defensive here. We are just tired of the same old same old and you will have to forgive a fan for not wanting to go through the same crap week in week out and If anybody is being defensive its you. make a point if you have one and then we will answer, otherwise take it elsewhere.

I think you can understand why we dont feel the need to defend our club every minute of every day. Its been done to death by me and others. Until something of any particular worth comes out, I wont respond fully to it. Im just tired of it all. I just want to be a football fan and the enjoy the game.

[Charlie Darwin]

she sounds kinky.
She's always knocked up though.

With regard to Fingal, while Gannon's loans have come under NAMA, it is highly probable that he still has access to considerable personal wealth (albeit in his wife's name). As Fingal is as much a vanity project as Chelsea is for Abramovich, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if he was able to bankroll the club for some time yet.

[legendz]

I stand corrected on the use of the wrong word, I should have said "allegedly" open league, which would get me around all areas. The lack of a pyramid in Ireland makes the game unattractive for all sorts of reasons, though maybe it's just hard experience of trying to amke sense of the situation that makes me see it this way. I guess if people wanted it to change, there would be a grass roots upheaval, however it seems (as stated in the Indo so it must be true) the FAI boss has the support and tender love of the grassroots so all is well in the state of Denmark.

Well, I've decided you are right regards a pyramid structure. Would you think the below is possible?
Rough Draft Pyramid Structure:
Level 1: Premier Division
Level 2: Division One
Level 3: Division Two North & South (2 Divisions)
Level 4: Intermediate League One (4 Divisions)
Level 5: Intermediate League Two (8 Divisions)
Level 6: Intermediate League Three (16 Divisions)
Level 7: 32 District Leagues

I can see merit now on a pyramid system. It is something Gaelic clubs have in their favour, the goal of promotion from Junior to Intermediate to Senior and then St. Patrick's Day in Croke Park.
I've looked around at some clubs and while the higher levels would be beyond them, even levels 5 and 6 would be a boost and would create interest. I'd agree also it probably would lead to funding locally becoming available to improve facilities when moving up levels. Hopefully something like this in the long-term could be come a possibility. Until then, the A Championship is the best interim solution.

Getting back to Fingal, I think they have a good long-term future. They might have to go through a few years of hardship and maybe Division One football but they will build and be a strong club in their community when the stadium is built.

[Bunny Kelly]

A pyramid structure is nice idea but do we have enough players & teams that want the hassle of progressing up the leagues?

There is a huge cost involved, financially for the clubs & time-wise for the players but with very little reward. Players get paid more in the 10th level of English football than the lower parts of the Irish first Div

[legendz]

I have to admit I don't know enough myself about the Munster, Ulster and Leinster Senior Leagues and the District Leagues to answer that. From what I can gather, there is 96 intermediate clubs in the FAI Intermerdiate Cup this season.
Spudulika was speaking from experience of where a pyramid structure was introduced in other countries and it has helped the game develop and be more attractive for sponsors. Also where clubs believed they could not meet the grounds criteria, when the rules came in the will and money seemed to become available to make it happen. I think it is doable in time and would be the ideal. The ideal is not always the realistic reality though.

[osarusan]

'Play your cards right and you could be up against the might of Mervue United one day. A sponsor's dream.'

[Spudulika]

That's an excellent start legendz, while I agree with Bunny (in terms of what players get in England), we have to start somewhere and it will lead to a growth of the game as sponsors and investors will take an interest. It will be 2-3 years in taking off, then you'll get sides appearing in the 3rd and 4th levels who will bring good crowds and money with them.

[legendz]

Is there 96 intermediate clubs altogether in the country? A 3 tier Intermediate league could be the way to start. Have 32 district leagues feeding into 8 divisions of 14 clubs, that's 4 regions feeding into every one division. Have the 8 divisions then feeding into 4 Divisions of 14 clubs each on the next level up and these 4 feeding into 2 divisions of 14 clubs each at the top tier of Intermediate football. In terms of numbers of clubs it'd work out 196 clubs. With 96 clubs already at that level, on average, 3 clubs would have to join from each district league.

[Spudulika]

With any new enterprise some clubs will baulk at it, especially owning or having long leases on their own grounds, however this gives greater security to the local authorities, plus clubs can then get themselves moving financially. It would be the greatest of innovations for the LOI and imagine an FAI Cup that had prelim rounds! With clubs joining in after each step, there would be plenty of football, plenty of competition and this is what will lift the game. As well as spread it! As it stands the GAA (and rugby to a lesser degree) have the local markets sown up, mainly because each club has a parish and uses this identity. While I love GAA, it would have to up it's game (and bring back the NL in Autumn) to compete.

[Mr A]

The FAI cup does have preliminary rounds. And indeed clubs can qualify via the intermediate and junior cups.

I like the idea of a proper, integrated pyramid, but I think some people here are getting massively carried away with the difference it would make to the top end of football in this country.

[legendz]

Yeah, 16 intermediate clubs and 4 Junior Clubs already qualify for the FAI Cup. They play in the first two rounds before LoI sides join in Round 3.
It is a good idea (the integrated pyramid). Whether workable, I was sceptical at first. The A Championship is a good interim league at the moment but long-term it should be the goal. It's good to get people's views on it anyway because some areas will support it where other areas won't. I wouldn't go as far to say it'd make a massive difference at the top but there's bound to be more respect for clubs at the higher levels.

[legendz]

With any new enterprise some clubs will baulk at it, especially owning or having long leases on their own grounds, however this gives greater security to the local authorities, plus clubs can then get themselves moving financially. It would be the greatest of innovations for the LOI and imagine an FAI Cup that had prelim rounds! With clubs joining in after each step, there would be plenty of football, plenty of competition and this is what will lift the game. As well as spread it! As it stands the GAA (and rugby to a lesser degree) have the local markets sown up, mainly because each club has a parish and uses this identity. While I love GAA, it would have to up it's game (and bring back the NL in Autumn) to compete.
I can only look to my home county. If the Kerry District League fed into an Intermediate league of 8 divisions at that level, I think the top sides would get by ok in a League with probably the two Limerick Junior Leagues and Cork West being fed into the same division. Every step clubs go up, the geographical spreads of clubs has to get wider.

[John83]

I like the idea of a proper, integrated pyramid, but I think some people here are getting massively carried away with the difference it would make to the top end of football in this country.
I like it too, but there could be a bigger difference than you think. Exactly where would the new Derry and Cork teams have been slotted into a pyramid? The cost of going bust would be a good bit higher.

[legendz]

I like it too, but there could be a bigger difference than you think. Exactly where would the new Derry and Cork teams have been slotted into a pyramid? The cost of going bust would be a good bit higher.

Both Derry and Cork were slotted into Division One this season. The FAI seemed to decide there was no call to demote them as far as the A Championship. I'm sure they'll always find some way like this. A gap has to be created somewhere by a team being demoted in the first place.

[Schumi]

Both Derry and Cork were slotted into Division One this season. The FAI seemed to decide there was no call to demote them as far as the A Championship. I'm sure they'll always find some way like this. A gap has to be created somewhere by a team being demoted in the first place.

The reason/excuse for them getting into the First Division was that they applied for and achieved First Division licences while none of the A Championship clubs did. A more integrated and mature pyramid might have more clubs looking for and getting higher licences as a matter of course which would make any fudges more difficult.

[legendz]

Clubs have been relegated by other associations before. Rules can be inserted that in terms of demotions for breaches, it's down to the FAI to determine what punishment should be applied and how severe the demotion should be. Integrity is maintained as long as clubs who rightfully win promotion are not hindered.

[Schumi]

Cork were a new club though so there couldn't really be a rule about them coming at a particular level.

[legendz]

There still could if it was some rule about the area and maybe the introduction of a new club like that but 3 levels down etc.

[Mr A]

That's a very good point about punishing those clubs that ditch their debts. Mind you they should be starting in the A championship as it is.

[Spudulika]

I agree with Mr A's last post, John 83 is spot on regarding clubs who mess up. Can you imagine if there was a 7 level system in Irish football, Shels, by now, would be up at the 5th, Derry and Cork would both be topping their 7th level leagues, while other clubs would be more motivated to take on a fallen giant, so to speak.

And this is what I meant by clubs baulking at it, and how difficult it would be to get it to happen. Would a turkey vote for christmas? And we know there are lots of turkeys in our leagues! It can only be done if it comes from the top down and bottom up, and this is what I meant by a closed league which suits both the powers that be and the clubs. We had the joke this year of Cork, who were conveniently used as whipping boys to distract from funny business elsewhere. Derry and themselves were both handed tickets into the 2nd tier because they applied for licences? Which goes to show how the league cannot continue like this. While lots of mud is thrown at Sporting Fingal, they were lumped into the league ahead of time and have been getting along nicely. Remember they originally went for the A Championship, in the real world they would have started in the 7th level. As it stands our system doesn't work.

As for developing clubs, a tight criteria on ground safety and standards would for clubs to shape up or ship out, and ambitious, dedicated and hard working clubs would soon overtake those who feel it's their right to house supporters in squalor and have barely passable facilities for players. Though I cannot see any change in structure coming for at least another decade, by then the good work being done at so many clubs and in many areas around the country will count for nothing.

[legendz]

While I wouldn't agree with all of The Genesis report, it stated the following:
UEFA Perspective
UEFA are increasingly taking more regulatory control in the affairs of domestic
football in Europe:
• Club licensing raising the bar in all aspects of operations. UEFA licensing is likely to see standards to
be raised and tightened even further.
• UEFA taking a strong stance on the running of domestic leagues
o Striving for National Associations to control domestic leagues
o A pyramid structure with the league at the pinnacle
o Setting development of club football as a key priority
o Adopting a more interventionist strategy.

• The League is a central cog in the FAI Technical Plan. It is critical
that a strong domestic league acts as the pinnacle of the football pyramid
and pathway to create an integrated development structure. The league is
of key strategic importance to football in Ireland.

Community Links
The clubs must focus on building strong links and associations with their local
communities, both from a playing and non-playing perspective. On the playing side,
the league club should act as the pinnacle of football in the area in a pyramid
structure. The clubs should have the capability to recruit, coach and retain local
talent from under age through to the Senior team. Ideally, the club should work in
partnership with all clubs in its area to support the development of players and
create a genuine partnership between the local amateur clubs and the league club.
As outlined above, each amateur club/league should be attached to a league club.

For this to work efficiently the issue of compensation to
amateur/schoolboy clubs/leagues should be addressed and a clear
protocol agreed.
Off the field, the clubs should invest in building closer relationships with the local
schools, clubs, and the community in general. There are numerous examples of
innovative community-based schemes in sports throughout the world. For example,
most UK clubs operate a ‘Football in the Community’ scheme. Bolton Wanderers’
scheme included over 20,000 adults and children last year in a diverse range of
activities. By developing community-based schemes, clubs can attract new fans to
the club and strengthen the loyalties of longer established supporters.
It is possible that public funding may be available for Football in the Community
officers to be appointed at league clubs. This should be pursued aggressively.

[pineapple stu]

Cork were a new club though so there couldn't really be a rule about them coming at a particular level.
Presumably they'd argue they were the best qualified of the A Championship teams, just as Fingal were when Kilkenny left.

The Genesis Report has been discredited so many ways that it really shouldn't be allowed in any serious discussion.