Rovers chairman pleads for support

[sligoman]

A RALLYING cry to all Sligo Rovers supporters, active and passive, to lend a hand to forge a “new beginning” for the club has been issued by club chairman, Doctor Dermot Kelly.

Dr Kelly said that the club was at a “hugely important juncture” and there was a need to “engage with the community and instigate a meaningful debate as to where the club is going”.

“We must move on from previous mistakes and difficulties. The excuse that something happened in the past that prevents future involvement unnecessarily delays progress.”

He also said that the workload at the club was simply beyond the capacity of a voluntary management committee of 10 or so people.

The chairman was speaking in advance of a major forum to discuss plans for the 2010 season, to be held at 5.30pm on Sunday, January 31, in the Clarion Hotel.

Read more (http://www.sligoweekender.ie/news/story/?trs=mhsnidkfql&cat=sport)

[Peachey]

Dr Kelly said that the club was at a “hugely important juncture” and there was a need to “engage with the community and instigate a meaningful debate as to where the club is going”.

He also said that the workload at the club was simply beyond the capacity of a voluntary management committee of 10 or so people.



In other words they are looking to scalp the fans for more money. I'm not surprised they find the workload too much, they haven't had a comittee meeting for over two months, that bigwig chairman will not even go to games when the rugger is on :eek:

[Rovers1]

In other words they are looking to scalp the fans for more money. I'm not surprised they find the workload too much, they haven't had a comittee meeting for over two months, that bigwig chairman will not even go to games when the rugger is on :eek:

Will you get involved?

[dong]

Nice positive contribution from Peachey for a change.:D

[red arrow]

i seriously think, no i'm sure that "peachey" is a rotten bananna ! there is an open invitiation to everybody who has sligo rovers football club at heart to attend the up and comming forum. as somebody who is very much involved with the club i can assure you that for the club to move forward we need more help. we need to increase our 400 club membership, we need to increase the number of season tickets we sell, we need sponsorship on match days, we need to increase membership in the "john chadda fund" but above all we need to increase the number of people comming through the gate. as i said before no more snide comments (those who make them are not true supporters) for the club to progress we need to act as a team. there is certainly potential there but only hard work will bring results. results off the field (i.e making the club more stable financially)will lead to positive results on the field.

[Peachey]

i seriously think, no i'm sure that "peachey" is a rotten bananna ! .

There is really no need for infantile insults, just because someone challanges the cosy consenous that everyone at the club is a hero and everything is wonderfull. I'll call things as I see them, this is a forum for debate I thought, I may not agree with a lot of people on here but I respect their opinions without resorting to petty name calling:(

[Fivesilver]

i seriously think, no i'm sure that "peachey" is a rotten bananna

I don't think so, but he looks like a member of that demographic (letter-writers to newspapers, callers to Joe Duffy) who only get exercised enough to comment on something if they're not annoyed/offended/indignant/outraged-Joe about it. I know lots of people who have an equal amount of positive and negative viewpoints, but you mostly get to hear about only one side of it.

No news is good news, as the saying goes. Maybe to see Peachey's sunnier side, you'll have to go and count the posts he hasn't made. :p

[redobit]

In other words they are looking to scalp the fans for more money. I'm not surprised they find the workload too much, they haven't had a comittee meeting for over two months, that bigwig chairman will not even go to games when the rugger is on :eek:

To be honest, if he'd prefer to be of watching a game of tiddlywinks rather that the Rovers I don't mind, as long as the club is being run right and he is doing a good job - thats all that matters. Which seems to be the case!

[CF1989]

its his job as chairman to keep the club anf its finances intact and to be at every game, at home at least. ive seen him about 5 times in the showgrounds in the last year. he cant run the club from dublin

[rovers100%]

i think cf has a fair point, exactly how much effort can ya put in if 130 miles away. a chairman should be the one putting in that little bit more effort than everyone else imo.

[neutrino]

i think cf has a fair point, exactly how much effort can ya put in if 130 miles away. a chairman should be the one putting in that little bit more effort than everyone else imo.

We dont know how the set-up is currently working so it's prob too early to comment on the chairman being effective from afar. It might be the case that he is using some contacts and tapping into financial support in the dublin area, beit getting people into club 400, lottery, etc etc. The committee dont always meet week in week out but even then it would be easy enough for him to be in sligo once a week. I'm sure someone will ask the question at the open forum. He should be going to every game alright as the figure head of the club. I cant say i always see everyone i know at a game despite them being there so maybe he is going to them all. Peachey seems to know more about the chairman so maybe i'm wrong.

[Redzer]

My knowledge of the MC is that the officers met a couple of times during the season(4-5) in Longford. We will probably here more details at the fans forum. But it certainly is a good question.

[sligored]

Vincent Nally, Fergal Keaveney , Keith O Dwyer , Kevin Lydon , Dermot Brannigan are looking after things very well on the ground in Sligo.
The chairman is a figurehead and I personally dont feel we are disadvantaged by him being in Dublin.
I know for a fact that rovers have got serious sponsorship via Dermot Kelly in dublin and we are in good shape on and off the pitch at the moment.
I dont think the man city fans are giving out that the owner is not living in eastlands or chelseas owner not living in london.

[Redie]

Vincent Nally, Fergal Keaveney , Keith O Dwyer , Kevin Lydon , Dermot Brannigan are looking after things very well on the ground in Sligo.
The chairman is a figurehead and I personally dont feel we are disadvantaged by him being in Dublin.
I know for a fact that rovers have got serious sponsorship via Dermot Kelly in dublin and we are in good shape on and off the pitch at the moment.
I dont think the man city fans are giving out that the owner is not living in eastlands or chelseas owner not living in london.

Spot on. The club has never been run in a more professional manner than it has been over the past year or so.

Some people would start a row in an empty room.:(

[redbuli]

don't understand what the issue is either, dont think it makes a bit of difference whether he goes to the games or not,

the clubs never been run better

dont know if anyone noticed but nearly every other club in the LOI is either in crisis, or has one coming round the corner, how raising the point at the open fourm would be of any benefit to the club is beyond me

[oldrover]

absolutely agree that club seems to be run very well at present. Pity to start new season with negative comments.... current chair seems very professional and totally committed to the club. If it works dont knock it...might be distinct advantages having chair a bit removed and if attendance at matches is to be taken into account half our games are outside Sligo and a large proportion in Dublin and its environs.

Cmon lets get behind the club and let everyone do their bit for the bitored

[redbuli]

i'd be interested to hear what the plans are for the development of the showgrounds, the sports facilities in sligo arent really up to standard for a town of our size,

theres has to be potential to make the showgrounds more appealing for five a side leagues etc, dont know what the take up on bookings at the showgrounds is like but i think something like the astro parks in tallaght are the way to go.. a bit of investment could lead to a steady income stream,

[avvenalaf]

i'd be interested to hear what the plans are for the development of the showgrounds, the sports facilities in sligo arent really up to standard for a town of our size,

theres has to be potential to make the showgrounds more appealing for five a side leagues etc, dont know what the take up on bookings at the showgrounds is like but i think something like the astro parks in tallaght are the way to go.. a bit of investment could lead to a steady income stream,

Right lads, who wants to have first go. Form a line, please.

[Brian Boru]

The lads on the ground from Sligo are legends. Dermot is an excellent chairman. I think we are in the best position we were ever in. The team is ? third best in Ireland. The facilities are good. Remember languishing in the first division, the old "stand", the oxtail soup from the shed behind the shed. We are in a good position. Dermot must be a good chairman and from what I hear the committee members are very happy with him. It's irrelevant where he lives. There are lots of Rovers fanatics living in Dublin.

[CarrickFan]

The lads on the ground from Sligo are legends. Dermot is an excellent chairman. I think we are in the best position we were ever in. The team is ? third best in Ireland. The facilities are good. Remember languishing in the first division, the old "stand", the oxtail soup from the shed behind the shed. We are in a good position. Dermot must be a good chairman and from what I hear the committee members are very happy with him. It's irrelevant where he lives. There are lots of Rovers fanatics living in Dublin.

I remember it being vegetable!!:)

[Boo_Boy]

Remember languishing in the first division, the old "stand", the oxtail soup from the shed behind the shed.

It was a simpler time. Good ol' Ted the traffic warden working the shed.

If I see him in town I still shout ''Get me a soup and a twix Ted!''.

[Brian Boru]

I remember it being vegetable!!:)

whatever it was I remember it would burn the tongue of ya.

[sligored]

I would love if the club set the bar a bit higher.
Maybe it is time that cookie came out and said that we are genuine title contenders.
The people of sligo and surrounds are ready to back this club to the hilt.
We will never have a better chance than 2010.
3 or 4 more good players and we can compete with bohs and shams.
Or am i blinkered in my view????

[Guts&Glory]

whatever it was I remember it would burn the tongue of ya.

In those great styrofoam cups that meant you burnt both tongue and hand. Then of course you had to dodge the drips from the Shed roof dropping into your soup.

Oh the memories.

[Mad Moose]

It sounded much like a pre-cursor to another crisis from your chairman but in reading on it does appear the club has turned a corner once again and is back on its feet and looking to build. Its a problem of the LoI that the numbers behind a club are so few that the dissenter and critic here and there will always be heard. I think some of the responses to Peachy have been harsh. My limited experience tells me that mistakes are repeated in this league and having seen it first hand there's an over confidence that comes with progress and moving the club in the right direction that very often ends up in failure all over again whether its down to setting ambition or a budget too high. There will always be dissenters and those sitting back waiting on a club to fail. What's needed is honesty and thats something that doesn't lie and the majority of people will always be lured by that. Its guaranteed. People get stung by past promises and letdowns and are hard to win back. I could say this of any LoI club because the margins between success and failure are miniscule. As a Harps fan I know a thing or two on the subject. These are just my opinions however.

[red arrow]

GENUINE COMMENTS "HARPSBEARER" AND THEY TOUCH THE SOUL AT THIS TIME OF THE MORNING. however the big problem is that the general public are not aware of how good the standard in L.O.I is. the fai/league are not marketing the game properly to the masses. for instance if you by any paper /tabloid you must trawl through 4 or 5 pages from the back before you get any comment on the L.O.I. & then it is miniscule. of course we then face the "david v. goliath" situation where we are always competing against the G.A.A. during the summer. it's not so much the championship games but the fact that a lot of young lads are training on a summers eve when a L.O.I game is on. we need to lean from the rugby fraternity, they have completely turned in around in the last 7 years. every kid in the south of ireland wants to play "rugger" & indeed in leinster. the problem is we do not have quality people at the very top in the fai/league who can market "our" domestic game properly. back in the 50's & early 60's L.O.I FOOTBALL WAS V.WELL SUPPORTED (but so was rugby & g.a.a. always is) but we never really moved on. funnily enough it should be much easier during times of recession to attract bigger crowds to the L.O.I. as people have less money to spend on flights but maybe it is only wish full thinking on my behalf

[sligofan4ever]

GENUINE COMMENTS "HARPSBEARER" AND THEY TOUCH THE SOUL AT THIS TIME OF THE MORNING. however the big problem is that the general public are not aware of how good the standard in L.O.I is. the fai/league are not marketing the game properly to the masses. for instance if you by any paper /tabloid you must trawl through 4 or 5 pages from the back before you get any comment on the L.O.I. & then it is miniscule. of course we then face the "david v. goliath" situation where we are always competing against the G.A.A. during the summer. it's not so much the championship games but the fact that a lot of young lads are training on a summers eve when a L.O.I game is on. we need to lean from the rugby fraternity, they have completely turned in around in the last 7 years. every kid in the south of ireland wants to play "rugger" & indeed in leinster. the problem is we do not have quality people at the very top in the fai/league who can market "our" domestic game properly. back in the 50's & early 60's L.O.I FOOTBALL WAS V.WELL SUPPORTED (but so was rugby & g.a.a. always is) but we never really moved on. funnily enough it should be much easier during times of recession to attract bigger crowds to the L.O.I. as people have less money to spend on flights but maybe it is only wish full thinking on my behalf

Good point about how L.O.I isn't being marketed properly, but the question remains, how do we market it properly ? recently someone mentioned that RTE had an ad for the upcoming sports of 2010 and didn't have 1 mention of MNS or any L.O.I football whatsoever, for a national tv station they're doing well in promoting the nations league teams :rolleyes: I also love how so many people in Sligo claim they love football but how often are they in the Showgrounds ? and for a town that supposedly prefers football, you still get 11,000 in Markevicz Park to see Sligo play Galway ? a fine example of contradicting yourself. I've said it to people before, but not on here, but we won't compete for the bigger crowds with summer gah unless we are genuinely challenging for the title. The FAI Cup had 8,000+ there, roughly just over 7,000 were there to support the Bit' O Red, take away about 5000 and sadly thats your regular attendance, but even though we lost in a heart breaking fashion, I have a feeling this could attract fans back with hope and ambition for the season ahead. This is the most enjoyable off season we've probably had since promotion considering we seem to be sound financially, we're being run very as mentioned and have brought in some very good players, aswell as keeping hold of alot of key players e.g Peers,Brush. Lets be positive about the season ahead, and hold all the negative comments back until we see how the season goes, like Cook said last season "Wait for the first 9 games, then judge us", so I think we should all take this on board before having anything negative too say about the club for the forthcoming season.

[CarrickFan]

GENUINE COMMENTS "HARPSBEARER" AND THEY TOUCH THE SOUL AT THIS TIME OF THE MORNING. however the big problem is that the general public are not aware of how good the standard in L.O.I is. the fai/league are not marketing the game properly to the masses. for instance if you by any paper /tabloid you must trawl through 4 or 5 pages from the back before you get any comment on the L.O.I. & then it is miniscule. of course we then face the "david v. goliath" situation where we are always competing against the G.A.A. during the summer. it's not so much the championship games but the fact that a lot of young lads are training on a summers eve when a L.O.I game is on. we need to lean from the rugby fraternity, they have completely turned in around in the last 7 years. every kid in the south of ireland wants to play "rugger" & indeed in leinster. the problem is we do not have quality people at the very top in the fai/league who can market "our" domestic game properly. back in the 50's & early 60's L.O.I FOOTBALL WAS V.WELL SUPPORTED (but so was rugby & g.a.a. always is) but we never really moved on. funnily enough it should be much easier during times of recession to attract bigger crowds to the L.O.I. as people have less money to spend on flights but maybe it is only wish full thinking on my behalf



Couldnt agree more more with the first part of your post...people are unaware and when i try to encourage people to go to matches its always "sure thats ****e football" even tho they have never been at a match!!..we have to try and change that preconception....would have to disagree a bit about the Rugby..every kid wants to play it now for one reason..SUCCESS...bandwagon,gloryhunting call it what you like we have a successful national team and club teams..and kids(and plenty of adults) will always jump on the back of a winning team/sport..there was f*ck all interest in rugby where im from 5 or 6 years ago now everyone is a fan/expert...soccer will always be more popular but unfortunatly for the LOI the loyalty of the soccer fans in Ireland is mostly with English teams..thats what we have to change...the Rugby "fans" can identify with an Irish team that is successful on the International and European club scene and thats what appeals to them at the minute....

[srfc1928]

I would love if the club set the bar a bit higher.
Maybe it is time that cookie came out and said that we are genuine title contenders.
The people of sligo and surrounds are ready to back this club to the hilt.
We will never have a better chance than 2010.
3 or 4 more good players and we can compete with bohs and shams.
Or am i blinkered in my view????
Brave statement to make, but I genuinely think we arent far away from this. Cynics among us would point to the thousands that turned up on cup final day and say where will they be next season. At every club or organisation you will have a certain percentage that will jump on the bandwagon. But I think if we can hve a bit of consistency over a couple of seasons and not implode like we have done in the past, market ourselves correctly we will add to our gates, the potential is there. The problem in the past was if we got near a bit of success we sold the team down the river and would be back to square one on and off the pitch. People felt let down and there was nothing left to believe in.
Maybe with the board we have now their is a chance to be consistant and build from there.
I think we will do well to get third next season however.
A solid start to the season is important.

GENUINE COMMENTS "HARPSBEARER" AND THEY TOUCH THE SOUL AT THIS TIME OF THE MORNING. however the big problem is that the general public are not aware of how good the standard in L.O.I is. the fai/league are not marketing the game properly to the masses. for instance if you by any paper /tabloid you must trawl through 4 or 5 pages from the back before you get any comment on the L.O.I. & then it is miniscule. of course we then face the "david v. goliath" situation where we are always competing against the G.A.A. during the summer. it's not so much the championship games but the fact that a lot of young lads are training on a summers eve when a L.O.I game is on. we need to lean from the rugby fraternity, they have completely turned in around in the last 7 years. every kid in the south of ireland wants to play "rugger" & indeed in leinster. the problem is we do not have quality people at the very top in the fai/league who can market "our" domestic game properly. back in the 50's & early 60's L.O.I FOOTBALL WAS V.WELL SUPPORTED (but so was rugby & g.a.a. always is) but we never really moved on. funnily enough it should be much easier during times of recession to attract bigger crowds to the L.O.I. as people have less money to spend on flights but maybe it is only wish full thinking on my behalf
Couldnt agree more. You just have to look at Munster, their off field achievements are almost as impressive as their achievments on it. Shams seem to have taken several leaves from their book in terms of marketing, PR etc. no reason why we couldnt do the same. As I said already we have massive potential.

[CarrickFan]

What do u mean by Munsters off field achievements?..im not being a smartarse i just have no interest in Rugby so not sure what your refering to.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Have to agree with the fact that the only way we're going to get people to go is to be challenging at the top of the table. Remember the crowds in 94 and also in 95 when we were on something like a 12 game unbeaten run and looking like we could win the league (only to in true Rovers fashion to completely fade away - the hope is the worst!)

It's not just us that have the same situation. Shels played Deportivo a few years ago in Lansdowne. 24k at it. Played really well. Some great football. Everyone left the ground happy with the performance. Think they played UCD next week in the league and had less then 1,000 at it.

If the Irish team started fading away at rugby the whole hype would go away as well. There was a Munster Leinster game in the mid 90s with only a couple of hundred at it. It happens in every sport alas

[bingoballs]

It was a simpler time. Good ol' Ted the traffic warden working the shed.

If I see him in town I still shout ''Get me a soup and a twix Ted!''.
Return to sender blastin on the p.a. and vinnie arkins gettin the best of stick. Those were the days alright.

[Fivesilver]

I remember it being vegetable!!:)

You mustn't have stirred it.

[Fivesilver]

for a town that supposedly prefers football, you still get 11,000 in Markevicz Park to see Sligo play Galway?

In fairness, if Rovers only had one or two meaningful games a year, and could be assured of huge media coverage by winning a couple, we'd probably have big crowds at those. How many people turn up to see Sligo in the league against the likes of Carlow?

[avvenalaf]

In fairness, if Rovers only had one or two meaningful games a year, and could be assured of huge media coverage by winning a couple, we'd probably have big crowds at those. How many people turn up to see Sligo in the league against the likes of Carlow?

Good point. Over a full season, more home fans watch Rovers than the County Team.

[Boo_Boy]

Drunk off those wine gums, ey peachey? ;)

[Fivesilver]

Drunk post, no sense

And that's different how exactly? :p

[Redie]

Good point. Over a full season, more home fans watch Rovers than the County Team.

That's it in a nutshell.

as far as I know the county team will have a maximum of 15 competative matches this year - compared with close to 40 for the Rovers - and of those 15 probably only two or three will attract a 'big crowd'. But the hype in the local media will have you believe that they are getting those crowds every second week.

[prodsc]

don't forget sunday, Arse v Manure in 3d or not, 5.30 Clarion.

[Kevin L]

Lads, the main purpose of the forum is that we are looking for help.
We need more people on the committee.
We need people to help on match nights plus people to help on an ongoing basis-even an hour a week would be great.
We want constructive criticism-maybe there are better ways of doing some of the jobs we do.
We will listen to all ideas.

But the bottom line is that income from the gate will not pay the bills-same for every club. We need to rely on the various fundraisers to make up the difference.
If we have more money, we can get better players, we can spend more on the marketing of Sligo Rovers, we can improve our facilities but it all takes money. If we leave it to the next fellow to do it, it wont get done.

At the same time, we had a good year last season apart from 2 games!! We cleared all the old tax and made improvements in the ground. Our squad seems stronger now than it was this time last year. We have some good lads on the committee plus we have a lot of great people helping out on match nights who often dont get any thanks.
But Sligo Rovers is your Club, the supporters and it is you who will determine where we go next as a club. Do we go the next level and challenge for the league and have European football regularly in the Showgrounds, do we stay where we are or God forbid, do we head back down to the First division. The choice is yours.

Let's try and get a good crowd out on Sunday and kickstart our season. Remember Sligo Rovers is a Great Club and it is Yours.

[Fivesilver]

Hear, hear.

[dong]

Any news on how the forum went?

[dong]

I'll take that as a no then!

[red bellied]

About 150 Sligo Rovers supporters attended a fans forum organised by the club at the Clarion Hotel yesterday evening.
New striker Padraig Amond was introduced to the supporters, while manager Paul Cook told fans that Rommy Boco was currently on trial with Doncaster after returning from the African Cup of Nations, but that the defender could yet return to The Showgrounds.
Cook also confirmed that he will be fielding full strength teams for the Setanta Sports Cup ties against Cliftonville and Cork City later this month.
Rovers will play a friendly against the Sligo-Leitrim Oscar Traynor team this Wednesday, with further friendlies to come away to Bray, Athlone and Finn Harps in the coming weeks.
In junior soccer, Sligo-Leitrim sides Carbury, Cliffoney Celtic, Merville United and Coolera Rovers all advanced in the Connacht Cup, while Aughanagh Celtic and Yeats United picked up wins in the Super League

http://oceanfm.ie/news/2010/02/01/150-fans-attend-rovers-forum/

[Redie]

Any news on how the forum went?

Dong

It was a very comprehensive, professionally presented and at times humorous meeting. There was an awful lot discussed and a lot of positive contributions from the floor and any criticisms were of the constructive variety. Chairman Dermot Kelly came across very well and the club is very lucky to have him on board. The following is some of the main points that I remember from the meeting.

The Management Committee is looking to set up a number of sub-committees and is looking for people with specific talents to come on board.

The FAI offered the Showgrounds an U21 International for the middle of this month which would have been broadcast live across Europe on Sky but because there is no TV gantry the club had to refuse the offer. The cost of such a gantry is12k and if the club can provide one ASAP then the FAI will offer a similar fixture to the Showgrounds during the season.

The Chairman of The Sligo Chamber of Commerce was present and he offered whatever assistance his organisation can provide including exploring cross border funding for the club in partnership with a club from the north.

There is a big push on the €20 tickets for the Cliftonville match/First league match and a full house at these two matches will be vital to giving the season an essential kick-start.

Not much could be said about the Chris Turner affair but as far as Rovers are concerned he signed a contract with us and it might take a week or so to get it sorted out but the club fully intends to stand its ground.

A significant number of members of the MC intend to step down at the next AGM so anyone with an interest in joining are asked to put themselves forward.

Finally - The Showgrounds needs a NEW SET OF DENTURES.

[dong]

Cheers Redie.

[neutrino]

The FAI offered the Showgrounds an U21 International for the middle of this month which would have been broadcast live across Europe on Sky but because there is no TV gantry the club had to refuse the offer. The cost of such a gantry is12k and if the club can provide one ASAP then the FAI will offer a similar fixture to the Showgrounds during the season.

There is a big push on the €20 tickets for the Cliftonville match/First league match and a full house at these two matches will be vital to giving the season an essential kick-start.

A significant number of members of the MC intend to step down at the next AGM so anyone with an interest in joining are asked to put themselves forward.



Great update there Redie. Thanks alot. I think if a seperate fund was set-up for the gantry then people would contribute to it. I know I would, if it means we can go watch u-21 internationals in sligo. It would also be another good addition to the showgrounds itself and would bring the main stand into view on TV.

The €20 tickets are a very good idea and excellent value. Ideas like this from the club are great.

Hopefully people who have time are willing go forward to the MC. Alot of good people there already and a good time to build for the future. Everything generally seems positive around the club which is great. Looking forward to the new season. hopefully we'll get a good start, bring the numbers in and build from there

[redbuli]

did they discuss any plans to develop the showgrounds.. i know they had the blueprint in the vllaznia programme.. just thinking no point putting money into putting up a tv gantry if they are planning to do away with the blue stand

[LondonRover]

Funnily enough I was looking at those blueprints earlier on today. Maybe I read them wrong but it looked to me like they wanted to cover Railway End terrace but leave the old Shed End open?

[Guts&Glory]

Curious about the U21s game and how much it would actually be worth to Rovers. I would have thought the FAI would be taking most of the cash with just a ground hire/expense spayment to Rovers.

No point say getting Eur 15,000 for ground hire, incurring costs and paying Eur 12,000 for a gantry when the money would really be needed for the team/club running costs.

Given the FAI could pay for the gantry to be insalled if the Eur 12,000 is equal to or part of the ground hire fee it seems a bit strange to me.