Linfield pull out of Setanta Cup

[Mr_Parker]

Did Cliftonville lodge the contract relating to the Celtic friendly with the administrator to establish creditor status?

Promises, promises..... and now deflection, deflection....but yes all parties are in pocession of all documents...though that has nothing to do with my comment.

[MariborKev]

Mr P,

None of us are on the board of
a)Wellvan
b)DCFC Ltd

Therefore we can't provide definitive answers to any of the questions you pose.

[Mr_Parker]

Mr P,

None of us are on the board of
a)Wellvan
b)DCFC Ltd

Therefore we can't provide definitive answers to any of the questions you pose.


Funny though that you can provide answers when it suits......:rolleyes:

[MariborKev]

I can provide an answer, is it right?

[Mr_Parker]

Has Derry City Football Club Ltd been specifically invited to compete and replace Wellvan Enterprises T/A DCFC? Love to see where the evidence of this is.


Did your Chairman not state at one of your supporter meetings That if you get a first division licence that he had been reassurred that they would be allowed to compete in the Setanta. Would he just make that up?

[cheech]

Mr Parker, I think you are barking up the wrong tree with MK.

He was one of a very small group of people that was extremely vocal about the previous Derry board and their spending. He was vilified for it in certain quarters.

He, like you now, was also just looking for answers.

[cheech]

Derry City should not be in the Setanta Cup. I think that the majority are in agreement with that.

Whatever about the 5k owed from the previous Derry board, Linfield were 100% within their rights to refuse to play this game.

The systematic lying, cheating and writing off of huge amounts of money that they owed has been one of the major scandals we've ever had in domestic football.

On the back of that, its extremely churlish of a section of the Derry support to say Linfield are now using this an excuse to pull out of the Setanta Cup.

Read the article from the Belfast Tele. They gave more reasons than that i.e. the fact that the prize money has been considerably reduced and it could cost teams money to participate being a major one.

The finger pointing from some of the Derry lads on here towards Linfield is breathtaking.

[MariborKev]

Did your Chairman not state at one of your supporter meetings That if you get a first division licence that he had been reassurred that they would be allowed to compete in the Setanta. Would he just make that up?

He was "reassured" was he?:rolleyes:

I'll check the audio but that ain't the phrase I remember used.

[marinobohs]

There is no 'restoration' here, a new club is being created.
And no amount is owed by Derry City to LFC.
.

Is anybody fully clear on what is happening at Derry ? LOI clubs in recent years have folded the holding company and carried on claiming the LOI entitlements earned by the previous entity - Shams, Drogs and Cork (poss) so on that basis the "NEW" Derry could well claim to be entitled to take up where the old entity left off (including participation in the SETANTA Cup). The issue of relegation/ licence withdrawn is a seperate issue and not necessarily involved in the SETANTA competition (solely a disiplinary issue involving the FAI). If alternatively the club ceased to exist then how can they get a 1st Div license ? Can FORAS or any other applicant get the same dispensation ?
Not sturring here, and I stated previously I do not think they should continue in the SETANTA but am honestly at a loss regarding the club status.

[MariborKev]

Is anybody fully clear on what is happening at Derry ? LOI clubs in recent years have folded the holding company and carried on claiming the LOI entitlements earned by the previous entity - Shams, Drogs and Cork (poss).

MB,

In all those cases the clubs went into examinership- but the companies were all "saved" by investors.

Wellvan Enterprises, which was the trading company for DCFC is in administration(UK equivalent of examinership) but no one has any intention of saving it. Therefore a new limtied company has been formed.

Fundamentally different from the three cases you mention.

[marinobohs]

MB,

In all those cases the clubs went into examinership- but the companies were all "saved" by investors.

Wellvan Enterprises, which was the trading company for DCFC is in administration(UK equivalent of examinership) but no one has any intention of saving it. Therefore a new limtied company has been formed.

Fundamentally different from the three cases you mention.

Cheers MK. still not sure of status of the football side and am unclear why they would not be eligible for SETANTA (leaving aside moral argument) and if there is no connection with old football entity then should they not start in A League* ?

*(think you guys suffered enough, but just asking :))

[garyderry]

Mr Parker, I think you are barking up the wrong tree with MK.

He was one of a very small group of people that was extremely vocal about the previous Derry board and their spending. He was vilified for it in certain quarters.

He, like you now, was also just looking for answers.

I agree he was one of the few who was vocal about the previous board and most of the rest of us hadnt a clue just how bad those muppets where,

However im not so sure Maribor was too vilified for it, he would be held in very high regard by anyone who knows him, and so would his opinions.
The former board certainly wouldnt have been his biggest fans though :p

But yeah Mr Parker, your making yourself sound like a raving lunatic with no credibility at all having a go at the likes of Maribor over the former boards antics.

[MariborKev]

Cheers MK. still not sure of status of the football side and am unclear why they would not be eligible for SETANTA (leaving aside moral argument) and if there is no connection with old football entity then should they not start in A League* ?

*(think you guys suffered enough, but just asking :))

MB,

Personally I think we should be in the A League. However if the FAI tell us we can apply for the 1st Division, then it made sense to apply for that.

In my view we shouldn't be eligible for the Setanta as it would be like parachuting a new club(Bray, Ballymena United etc) in and going- "pretend you are Derry City" and play out the rest of the campaign.

The club that entered the competition in 2009 is in administration, has no players and is in position to fufil fixtures. The new club was not a participant at the start of the competition, how can they start now.

[marinobohs]

MB,

Personally I think we should be in the A League. However if the FAI tell us we can apply for the 1st Division, then it made sense to apply for that.

In my view we shouldn't be eligible for the Setanta as it would be like parachuting a new club(Bray, Ballymena United etc) in and going- "pretend you are Derry City" and play out the rest of the campaign.

The club that entered the competition in 2009 is in administration, has no players and is in position to fufil fixtures. The new club was not a participant at the start of the competition, how can they start now.

Fair play, and a very honest view on things MK :) take your point RE SETANTA as it makes sense (a novel concept inthe world of Irsih football). Best of luck next season (hopefuly in the first division)

[Mr_Parker]

Mr Parker, I think you are barking up the wrong tree with MK.

He was one of a very small group of people that was extremely vocal about the previous Derry board and their spending. He was vilified for it in certain quarters.

He, like you now, was also just looking for answers.

I am well aware of his position now and in the past including his warnings. If you read my posts I am not having a go at him. He is one of the 'good guys' in my book.

[OneRedArmy]

Promises, promises..... and now deflection, deflection....but yes all parties are in pocession of all documents...though that has nothing to do with my comment.You asked when you were going to get paid.

You're not going to get paid (whether by administrator or otherwise) without proving you are owed money by lodging your claim with the administrator and being formally confirmed as a creditor.

That's why I asked a simple question that required a yes/no answer.

If anyone is deflecting anything I'm afraid it's you....

[osarusan]

You're not going to get paid (whether by administrator or otherwise) without proving you are owed money by lodging your claim with the administrator and being formally confirmed as a creditor.

If FODC have approached Linfield with the intention of ex gratia payments which are in effect covering debts by the previous DCFC then they don't need to be on the list of creditors?

I agree with you about the contradiction of complaining that FODC won't actually pay them, and then saying that the administrator will handle all payments (if that is actually what is happening).

[OneRedArmy]

If FODC have approached Linfield with the intention of ex gratia payments which are in effect covering debts by the previous DCFC then they don't need to be on the list of creditors?

I agree with you about the contradiction of complaining that FODC won't actually pay them, and then saying that the administrator will handle all payments (if that is actually what is happening).Lodging the claim with the adminstrator is a formailty, as unfortunately given the lack of assets of Wellvan (and the many creditors) it's unlikely that there will be a material settlement at the end of the process.

The reason for lodging a claim is to establish you are owed what you say you are owed. Otherwise what's to stop any club of business rocking up and saying they are owed £x by Wellvan?

The Cliftonville money relates to a contract signed between Derry City and Celtic in 2008 for a transfer fee and friendlies. Cliftonville have claimed a sidebar contract exists between Derry and them to share Celtics costs for a friendly arranged subsequently between Cliftonville and Celtic.

Therefore unless this contract has been lodged with the administrator, there's no way anyone will get paid, by anyone. Mr. Parker has confirmed the contract was lodged with the administrator and Cliftonville have been listed as a creditor by the administrator so that's the first step to getting paid. All the above being correct, over to FoDC to take it forward in that case.

[Mr_Parker]

You asked when you were going to get paid.

You're not going to get paid (whether by administrator or otherwise) without proving you are owed money by lodging your claim with the administrator and being formally confirmed as a creditor.

That's why I asked a simple question that required a yes/no answer.

If anyone is deflecting anything I'm afraid it's you....

Maybe you missed it. :rolleyes:


Promises, promises..... and now deflection, deflection....but yes all parties are in pocession of all documents...though that has nothing to do with my comment.

[Celdrog]

LOI clubs in recent years have folded the holding company and carried on claiming the LOI entitlements earned by the previous entity - Shams, Drogs and Cork (poss)

Drogheda haven't folded the holding company. Its still Hinge trading. The FAI insisted in 2002 that Hinge carried on with the Drogs and we went into examinership, not liquidation in the recent times.

[osarusan]

The reason for lodging a claim is to establish you are owed what you say you are owed. Otherwise what's to stop any club of business rocking up and saying they are owed £x by Wellvan?

My questions are just about Linfield.

I thought that FODC and Linfield had agreed not only that there would be a payment, but also the amount of the payment (no idea if this is the full amount owed, or just a goodwill gesture).

I may well be wrong though.

I'm not saying that Linfield shouldn't bother putting themselves down as a creditor, just saying that I thought the amount to be paid had already been agreed upon.

[EalingGreen]

MB,

Personally I think we should be in the A League. However if the FAI tell us we can apply for the 1st Division, then it made sense to apply for that.

In my view we shouldn't be eligible for the Setanta as it would be like parachuting a new club(Bray, Ballymena United etc) in and going- "pretend you are Derry City" and play out the rest of the campaign.

The club that entered the competition in 2009 is in administration, has no players and is in position to fufil fixtures. The new club was not a participant at the start of the competition, how can they start now.
MK,
You can add me to the public list of those who appreciate your consistency and principle re these issues - also your knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes.
Can you clear up one (more) thing which has been puzzling me?
We were told a few months ago that "Derry City" had signed Stephen Kenny as Manager, followed by their first four players.
Who exactly has signed them?
And with whom (if anyone) have their contracts etc been registered?
Is it the old DCFC (Wellvan), or is it FODC or someone else?
Can you register a professional or semi-pro player without your being a recognised, properly-constituted football club?

I am prompted to ask by the latest speculation from the Brandywell today:

Meanwhile, Celtic are trying to finalise a deal for Derry teenager Darren McCauley, according to the Irish club's manager.
The Hoops have reportedly beaten off interest from Blackburn in the 18-year-old midfielder.
Derry boss Stephen Kenny said in the Daily Express: "Celtic are talking to Derry at the moment to try to thrash out a deal.
"There is a lot of interest in Darren but it looks like he will be going to Celtic."
http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/celtic/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/10/01/06/SOCCER_Celtic_Verkhovtsov.html&TEAMHD=celtic&DIV=scotsprem&TEAM=CELTIC&RH=Celtic&PREV_SEASON=

May we assume that McAuley is a free agent (i.e. not currently registered with, or contracted to, any club), so Celtic need not pay a transfer fee?

If so, why is Kenny saying that Celtic are "thrashing out a deal with Derry"?

[OneRedArmy]

Derry City FC Limited (NewCo) signed Stephen Kenny and any players signed this season.

No idea about McCauley. It shouldn't have anything to do with Kenny unless NewCo signed him or were assigned his contract by the administrator.

[passerrby]

im sure this was asked in the past but cant remember the answer but does the ifa give its permission to allow new DCFC to play outside its Juristriction. and should the fai be seeking permission to accept a club from outside its area of operation.

[MariborKev]

EG,

I don't know that much.

Why couldn't a player be "signed" with any company, even if they weren't a football club. If I sign a contract with a firm saying that I am starting employment on x date, that is still a signed contract. I would assume that the contracts are in the name of the new limited company.

As for the registration idea, I am unclear on that myself. If the new entity has never had a licence I would say we probably can't register contracts until the licence is awarded.

As for McCauley, I would assume he is a free agent and that any payment would be in relation to a development fee. I reckon any development fee would be going to Top of the Hill Celtic, a local club here as they were responsible for his development for the vast majority of his career.

If Celtic are talking to anyone, I would assume it is the adminstrator of Wellvan in the same way that clubs who approached Rovers, Drogs and Cork about buying their players when they were in examinership. I haven't a clue what Kenny is on about to be honest.

[Acornvilla]

would it not make sence that derry not be alout in the setanta cup and linfield be given the victory? sorry if someones lready suggested it

[garyderry]

would it not make sence that derry not be alout in the setanta cup and linfield be given the victory? sorry if someones lready suggested it

Make more sense that derry drop out and pats and Linfield play-off on who should go through, however its up to the organisers not Linfield or anyone on here.

I would have thought it was obvious that Derry wouldnt be in it, however now with all Linfields threats, its hard to tell what will happen. The organising committee shouldnt be seen to be bullied by Linfield. Maybe the next placed EL team not in the Setanta taking Derrys berth is an option, the other likely event is the setanta cup fading away.

[osarusan]

Are teams free to just pull out without being sanctioned in any way?

[saint dog]

With all the rivalry between the fans up north on here
maybe the new derry would be better off in the Irish League

[OneRedArmy]

With all the rivalry between the fans up north on here
maybe the new derry would be better off in the Irish LeagueMaybe you'd be better off reading the moderator comments.

[EalingGreen]

EG,

I don't know that much.

Why couldn't a player be "signed" with any company, even if they weren't a football club. If I sign a contract with a firm saying that I am starting employment on x date, that is still a signed contract. I would assume that the contracts are in the name of the new limited company.

As for the registration idea, I am unclear on that myself. If the new entity has never had a licence I would say we probably can't register contracts until the licence is awarded.

As for McCauley, I would assume he is a free agent and that any payment would be in relation to a development fee. I reckon any development fee would be going to Top of the Hill Celtic, a local club here as they were responsible for his development for the vast majority of his career.

If Celtic are talking to anyone, I would assume it is the adminstrator of Wellvan in the same way that clubs who approached Rovers, Drogs and Cork about buying their players when they were in examinership. I haven't a clue what Kenny is on about to be honest.Absolutely not, I'm afraid (in bold).

Signing a professional football contract is not like working for a bank or a farmer etc. Otherwise, how do you think clubs can demand a transfer fee for when a player breaks his contract to join another club? It doesn't happen in other industries.
Neither does eg a banker have to get permission from any body (FA) to register with another bank.
The whole point about pro or semi-pro footballers is that they can only become registered to play in a sanctioned competition if they are members of a registered football club.
(Which was why there was so much hoohaa about Tevez and Mascherano - their contract was owned by an Agent, not a club, or an Official of a club).

Moreover, it is widely believed that it is an FAI-imposed condition of DCFC getting a 1st Divn. Licence that they first clear their debts to Swifts and Linfield. This prompts the question as to why the FAI should insist on something which would benefit clubs of another Association, at the same time as hurting financially one of their own prospective members.

I can only think that this is because if they are to operate as a pro/semi-pro club, DCFC need to be registered with their local Association (IFA), and the IFA have said that they will not recognise/register them, and/or permit them to play in another FA's jurisdiction, until they (whether "old" or "new") have settled their debts with their fellow IFA members.

And if DCFC are not (yet) registered as a pro/semi-pro club with an Association, they cannot sign players on pro/semi-pro terms.

And if they cannot (yet, at least) own players' registrations, I cannot see how they may negotiate, never mind benefit from, one of "their" players signing for another club. Is this evidence that the new guys at the Brandywell are still operating a system of "Nods and Winks", perhaps assisted by Delaney & Co, in the manner of their predecessors?

[dcfcsteve]

maybe the new derry would be better off in the Irish League

Maybe not, maybe so.

But one thing we do all know is that the LOI would be much worse off without Derry City....

:ball:

[MariborKev]

Agreed EG,

But take the situation as it stands- I am assuming that DCFC Ltd will not register any contract until a licence is awarded by the FAI, which alludes to the point that you make yourself.

The players sign a contract, or indeed possibly a pre contract, that states that subject to DCFC being awarded a licence they are contracted to that club. They have agreed in principle to sign for the club at this point.

They are, assuming a licence is awarded, now contractually bound to that club. However as no contracts have been registered with the FAI there is no need to get permission for registration etc.

If the entity that the players were contracted to is no longer in existence, then permission should be straightforward.

I agree with the point that you are making as regarding playing, but for the moment forget that. If/when the licence is awarded and players have to be registered then the situation is different.

Personally I don’t believe they will be benefiting from McCauley, that is just Kenny who is fond of a soundbite, giving a quote.

[OneRedArmy]

Is this evidence that the new guys at the Brandywell are still operating a system of "Nods and Winks", perhaps assisted by Delaney & Co, in the manner of their predecessors?What do you think? You're fond of the rhetorical questions EG, I'll give you that. An easy way of hiding behind unsubstantiated rumours some would say.

But like a child and the cookie jar, you can't help yourself putting your hand back in over and over again, despite being warned many times you've had enough...

Of course, maybe if DCFC were still in the IL, their fellow IL clubs might have been prepared to "cut them some more slack", or maybe even the IFA might have brokered some sort of compromise?

[saint dog]

Muppet,

something I wouldnt expect from a Pats fan :rolleyes:

get a grip would you
im just commenting on the childish fighting like cats and dogs of fans
on the thread , obviously what i said was tongue n cheek
personally i love our trips to the brandywell and we always made feel welcome there ;)

[passerrby]

Agreed EG,

The players sign a contract, or indeed possibly a pre contract, that states that subject to DCFC being awarded a licence they are contracted to that club. They have agreed in principle to sign for the club at this point.
.

I would think kev that it is not a contract until it is registered with the league on a standard players contract.and until then can move whenever he pleases.

[Cosmo]

Well done linfield, they were dead right!

Cant see why some derry (not sure which derry theyre supporters of though -maybe clarify that when posting in future lads) fans have a problem with it!!

[gspain]

Make more sense that derry drop out and pats and Linfield play-off on who should go through, however its up to the organisers not Linfield or anyone on here.

I would have thought it was obvious that Derry wouldnt be in it, however now with all Linfields threats, its hard to tell what will happen. The organising committee shouldnt be seen to be bullied by Linfield. Maybe the next placed EL team not in the Setanta taking Derrys berth is an option, the other likely event is the setanta cup fading away.


You also have the issue of the best runner up reaching the semis.

If Pats and Linfield are given walkovers (3-0??) then they could win a game each v each other and most likely qualify as winner and best runner up unless Sligo and Cork draw again.

The other option is let them playoff for a semi place but the losers go out.

I can't see how the new Derry City can be left in the competition.

[Mr_Parker]

'Derry City' not 'invited' into Setanata (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/local/derry-exit-throws-setanta-into-chaos-14636228.html)

[garyderry]

'Derry City' not 'invited' into Setanata (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/local/derry-exit-throws-setanta-into-chaos-14636228.html)

It was the only sensible thing to do.

[Mr A]

What a garbage article, really ****-poor attempt at journalism. Doesn't even mention that the Derry that qualified went into administration or anything!

[gspain]

What a garbage article, really ****-poor attempt at journalism. Doesn't even mention that the Derry that qualified went into administration or anything!


I don't think it is even that good. Total and utter crap journalism.

[MariborKev]

Lads,

It is just like the article from Kerr- speculation. Let's wait for an announcement.

[Danny]

there could be some truth in it
pats were told on wednesday by the fai that the SSC committee were meeting on thursday and an annoucemnet on derry and the future of the competition would be made before the w/e

[Schumi]

clubs like Cliftonville, Coleraine, Glentoran and Sligo Rovers up in arms as their chance of progressing to the semi-final stages have all but ended because of the Candystripes’ expulsion.WTF??

[MariborKev]

I assume the journo is referring to the "best runner up spot" situation which gspain alluded to earlier in the thread.

Are Linfield and Pats going to get walkovers for their games v Derry? If so, how will the other clubs feel.

[Schumi]

Of course, I forgot there were three groups this year.

[pineapple stu]

It'll be even more fun when Cork get kicked out too.

[Not Brazil]

The extent of "old" Derry City's debts revealed.

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Derry-City39s-massive-debts-revealed.5986539.jp

[OneRedArmy]

The extent of "old" Derry City's debts revealed.

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Derry-City39s-massive-debts-revealed.5986539.jpPosted in the Derry City thread.