Communism @ Croke Park

[honeymonster]

Was sitting in Block 301 last night, next to the hill where upon hearing the full time whistle two young lads with what looked like a white bed sheet with black print "BRING BACK ANDY REID" were pulled up by the a few stewards and the Gardai. The Gardai and stewards confiscated there lads banner and subsequently began to record their ticket/seat numbers and personal information. Many fans attempted to intervene but the officials carried on regardless...

This is surely a breach of their civil liberties?!! I would be appalled if these guys got refused entry for future games..... See the pictures attached.

[OneRedArmy]

Remember the "Delaney Out" tshirt protest?

Similarly dealt with.

Whatever about the stewards, the Gardai shouldn't have gotten involved. Hard to argue that such a banner was inciting anything or breaching the peace.

P.S. Closer to facism than communism IMO...

[shakermaker1982]

just waiting for the GAA to get the blame for this....

[Leeside Swagger]

Maybe they're as sick of this Andy Reid nonsense as the rest of the country. If we could do something similar to the lads on the RTE panel then I'm all for it.

[Duggie]

ya i saw a kid with a banner on tv last night. think it said "reid our lips trap bring back andy reid" or something like that. dont know why they would take it off those lads. pretty normal stuff i would have thought.

[geysir]

It is the same kid in the photo who had the 'reid our lips' banner.
After the RTE cameras caught the banner in shot (which caused Bill to have a nervous cough) the lad gets surrounded by the Gardai.
Thats Delayneyism

[OneRedArmy]

just waiting for the GAA to get the blame for this....
It couldn't have been associated with the GAA. The protest would've been in the middle of the pitch after the game...

[Brendan 82]

Remember the "Delaney Out" tshirt protest?

Similarly dealt with.

Whatever about the stewards, the Gardai shouldn't have gotten involved. Hard to argue that such a banner was inciting anything or breaching the peace.

P.S. Closer to facism than communism IMO...

Correct sir. "Communism" seems to be a catch all term for troglodytes the world over these days.

[Murfinator]

I'm sorry but we've just qualified for the play-offs and the last thing any of us want to deal with is the ever present moaners and complainers. Trap does 9 things right and 1 thing wrong and it appears that some people care more about chastising him for the the little that is wrong than praising him for everything he's done right.

Toss them out I say

[jmurphyc]

I'm sorry but we've just qualified for the play-offs and the last thing any of us want to deal with is the ever present moaners and complainers. Trap does 9 things right and 1 thing wrong and it appears that some people care more about chastising him for the the little that is wrong than praising him for everything he's done right.

Toss them out I say

It's got nothing to do with Trap. It's about the right to free speech. It's essentially the same as not allowing people to protest against the government. How would you feel about that?

[tetsujin1979]

I noticed the sheet, was in the lower Davin, over to the left of he goal

Remember the "Delaney Out" tshirt protest?
along those lines, this is hanging at my desk at work
http://tetsujin1979.googlepages.com/15102009105.jpg

[geysir]

It's paranoia gone out of control.

I see it's not the Gardai in the photo, just stewards.

[Bluebeard]

Special branch, carefuly disguised as stewards. If you look at the TV footage, you'll see that there were another three or four disguised in green shirts, patroling the crowds from the middle of the field too...

[Murfinator]

It's got nothing to do with Trap. It's about the right to free speech. It's essentially the same as not allowing people to protest against the government. How would you feel about that?

This would be the equivalent of protesting against the government in the dail chambers on the day the lisbon treaty was passed.

There's a time and place for protests, and this was neither. It's in very bad taste for any so called "fan" to protest against the management staff after they've just qualified for the play offs and before the most crucial set of games we've had in 7 years. I've seen signs against stan and delaney before so I'm going to assume it was the bad taste and timing these guys had which is why they were withdrawn. Maybe they were being disruptive prior to the incident as well, we don't know the full story.

Either way, no sympathy for them if they are banned.

[jmurphyc]

There's a time and place for protests, and this was neither. It's in very bad taste for any so called "fan" to protest against the management staff after they've just qualified for the play offs and before the most crucial set of games we've had in 7 years. I've seen signs against stan and delaney before so I'm going to assume it was the bad taste and timing these guys had which is why they were withdrawn. Maybe they were being disruptive prior to the incident as well, we don't know the full story.

Either way, no sympathy for them if they are banned.

The signs against Staunton and Delaney were removed too as far as I can recall. The game was essentially a dead rubber and few banners would have much effect on the players in next month's games. It was the perfect time to protest. It's personally not something that I would do, but last night's game was an excellent time to make your voice heard. Add to that that it was not a protest against management, it was a protest against a management decision, which is a very different matter.

[First]

My first thought was what a great email address for the GAA.

Shocking stuff that a banner like this would interest the Gardai, there has to be another reason for it ...........surely , anyone

[Murfinator]

The signs against Staunton and Delaney were removed too as far as I can recall. The game was essentially a dead rubber and few banners would have much effect on the players in next month's games. It was the perfect time to protest. It's personally not something that I would do, but last night's game was an excellent time to make your voice heard. Add to that that it was not a protest against management, it was a protest against a management decision, which is a very different matter.

It's such a pointless activity though. Does anybody believe a man who has been in the game for 50 odd years is going to backtrack on a decision because some guy with a sign says he should?
I always believe the stands should be for supporters and this kind of thing is anti-support and helps nobody. I'd understand if we were eliminated already or it was the beginning of a new campaign or some such. But protesting that a guy who hasn't been involved for the whole campaign should be brought big for the biggest two games of the campaign...it's crazy. It's in no way the "perfect time".

How would you feel if you were a winger or centre mid on the pitch last night and saw a sign for a supporter desperately seeking for someone out of the squad to replace you. Uplifted or spurred on to perform? I doubt it.

[peadar1987]

Did the steward then proceed to take over the factories in the name of the state, outlaw private ownership of land or industry, and invest heavily in equal public services for all?

[Duggie]

personally id wouldnt bring a banner to a game cause i couldnt be bothered but if it wasnt offensive then it should be allowed.

[Schumi]

I noticed the sheet, was in the lower Davin, over to the left of he goalThe one in the Davin was complaining about FIFA seeding the playoff draw. I got a photo of that, I'll stick it up somewhere later.

[youngirish]

Was the banner carrier a member of the bourgeois classes?

[theworm2345]

What are you doing here HM? :)

[Docboy]

The one in the lower Davin was telling Dunphy to shut his Trap! Seems ridiculously heavyhanded for what it was, why shouldn't the fans be able to put an inoffensive point across? Though that said, that seems to be the society we're increasingly moving towards.

[superfrank]

It's paranoia gone out of control.

I see it's not the Gardai in the photo, just stewards.
I was walking by the incident on my way back and the Gardai, followed by stewards, pushed us out of the way to get to the banner.

I think it's shocking treatment. The banner said "Bring Back Andy Reid". WTF is the problem with that? It'd be one thing for the stewards to take it down, but the fact that the Gardai, assumingly at the behest of the FAI, took the banner down and took the fellas' details is ridiculous.

This another reason for me to hate the FAI.

[Murfinator]

Out of curiosity, if you went to a U2 concert in whatever arena and started waving a banner saying something that puts down Bono. How do you think organising authorities would react to that?

[peadar1987]

I find that "Davy Keogh says hello" banner highly offensive. Just who the hell does he think he is? He never bothers to pass the time of day with me for months, and then whenever Ireland play he's up there with his banner, saying hello to everyone with a TV set. It's sickening!

[Uncle_Joe]

The FAI have experimented with communism in the past, particulaly Stans 4 year plan to drag us from the footbal backwaters to make us a world power.

[centre mid]

Article 40.6.1 gives the citizens of the state the right to free speech.


However, this may not be used to undermine "public order or morality or the authority of the State". Furthermore, the constitution explicitly requires that the publication of "blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter" be a criminal offence

Hard to see how taking a banner asking for the return of a player is allowable by law.

[Schumi]

Croke Park probably counts as private property. If you want to hold up a banner in my front room, I doubt I have to let you! There's no need for the FAI to remove these though, it's symptomatic of the fear of criticism in the organisation though.

[centre mid]

Surely there has to be a valid reason though, If I have a hat that says "kiss me quick" then I doubt you can take it from me just because you dont fancy kissing me, quickly or otherwise.

[Partizan]

Outrageous. Surely thats a breach of one's civil liberties. What would have happened if the people holding the banner refused to hand it over?

If arrested, would they be prosecuted?

[Emmet7]

What next? Teeshirts printed of Andy Reid with a crown of thorns on his head??

Or maybe of him similar to the Che Quevara picture with a beret?

[OneRedArmy]

Croke Park probably counts as private property. If you want to hold up a banner in my front room, I doubt I have to let you! There's no need for the FAI to remove these though, it's symptomatic of the fear of criticism in the organisation though.The question is on what grounds the Gardai intervened to support the stewards.

[centre mid]

The question is on what grounds the Gardai intervened to support the stewards.

At the behest of the fai according to the guy who made the banner - he was on newstalk earlier.

[Schumi]

The question is on what grounds the Gardai intervened to support the stewards.

Indeed, I don't see what would have required the Gardai to be involved.

[geysir]

By the sounds of it, the little banner that people would have forgotten about 1 minute after seeing that fleeting image of it on RTE, has now become a national sports news item.

Well done to the FAI :D

[John83]

By the sounds of it, the little banner that people would have forgotten about 1 minute after seeing that fleeting image of it on RTE, has now become a national sports news item.

Well done to the FAI :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

[CarrickFan]

I'm sorry but we've just qualified for the play-offs and the last thing any of us want to deal with is the ever present moaners and complainers. Trap does 9 things right and 1 thing wrong and it appears that some people care more about chastising him for the the little that is wrong than praising him for everything he's done right.

Toss them out I say


ur such a hypocrite why do you post here?

[Duggie]

heard the guy on off the ball last night. apparently when the "senior" gardai came over to question what was going on he realised that the boys had done nothing and told them to go on ahead. common sense really.

[as_i_say]

OP-just more evidence if any was needed about the PC mentality in this country that has taken over everything. Whatever about peoples opinions on reid, that is an absolute disgrace. If I was one of those fans I would seek legal advice if any attempt was made to stop me going to another ireland game on the basis of something like that. Sickening.

[Leeside Swagger]

Any mention of no banners allowed on the t+c's on the back of the ticket?

[SuperDave]

Any mention of no banners allowed on the t+c's on the back of the ticket?

That would be where the allowance of removing it comes from.

If someone came to your house for dinner then after eating revealed a t-shirt saying 'your cooking sucks' you'd be none too happy. It's pretty much the same situation. It's not really a free speech issue as much as a breach of contract / private property / trespass issue. I don't really have a problem with it. However, it is pretty obvious that it does the FAI more harm than good censoring like this so you do have to question the effectiveness of it.

[Leeside Swagger]

That would be where the allowance of removing it comes from.


So its in the terms and conditions so? If all banners are being removed then i dont see the problem, thems the rules. Otherwise you would have to make a judgement call on every banner to see if it was offensive etc.

[eamo1]

Was anyone else here in or near the singing section of the Davin Stand last Saturday night?Some fools let off a few stink bombs and the stewards in the area just walked away.To be fair unless they seen someone lighting one then there's not much they could have done.Approx sections 320 and 321.

[SuperDave]

So its in the terms and conditions so? If all banners are being removed then i dont see the problem, thems the rules. Otherwise you would have to make a judgement call on every banner to see if it was offensive etc.

i don't know what the t+cs are... but i'd imagine that's where they get the power from. I don't know if it is only offensive banners or what it is but i'm only guessing.

[OneRedArmy]

That would be where the allowance of removing it comes from.

If someone came to your house for dinner then after eating revealed a t-shirt saying 'your cooking sucks' you'd be none too happy. It's pretty much the same situation. It's not really a free speech issue as much as a breach of contract / private property / trespass issue. I don't really have a problem with it. However, it is pretty obvious that it does the FAI more harm than good censoring like this so you do have to question the effectiveness of it.Its only the same if the guards came round to help you take the t-shirt off them.

Its not trespass if you have paid for a ticket.

Gardai have no remit in a breach of contract.

[SuperDave]

Its only the same if the guards came round to help you take the t-shirt off them.

Its not trespass if you have paid for a ticket.

Gardai have no remit in a breach of contract.

well, it's trespass if you are in breach of your contract

and if it's trespass then the gardai have remit to remove you

so no problem.

[John83]

Its only the same if the guards came round to help you take the t-shirt off them.

Its not trespass if you have paid for a ticket.

Gardai have no remit in a breach of contract.
Oh, enough of the barber-shop legal advise. It is trespass if you are asked to leave for a valid reason and don't, and we don't know the specifics.

[OneRedArmy]

Oh, enough of the barber-shop legal advise. It is trespass if you are asked to leave for a valid reason and don't, and we don't know the specifics.1) Its advice.
2) Nothing barber-shop about it. Have been in this very situation before.
Process goes as follows.
i) Steward asks you to take down banner. They are entitled to ask you to do this.

ii) If you refuse, they are required to call gardai to remove banner and/or remove you from the ground if you won't co-operate.

iii) The gardai are then required to take their own view on the issue. They should not act in a Pinkerton Guard-type manner. They are not a private police force. Unfortunately they tend to blindly follow the requests of the stewards in my experience.

[SuperDave]

From the back of your ticket (selected parts only, obviously):


The instructions of the stewards and the Gardai must be obeyed at all times.

All persons entering the ground agree to be searched by a member of the Gardai Siochana.

The following are not permitted:

- Bringing into the ground fireworks, smoke canisters, bottles, glasses, cans, flags, banners, poles, distress signals, laser pointers and other similar articles or containers, including anything which could or might be ised as a weapon.

If a person commits a trespass, reasonable force may be used to prevent, restrain or terminate any trespass.

Where a person is in breach of any of these rules, or where the management believes that a person constitutes a source of danger to others, or to the ground, such person may be refused entry to or ejected from the ground, and reasonable force may be used for that purpose.

I think that covers it quite well...