Communism @ Croke Park

[OneRedArmy]

From the back of your ticket (selected parts only, obviously):



I think that covers it quite well...The gardai are required to enforce the law. They are not specifically required to enforce the terms and conditions on the back of a ticket. They are not a private police force.

[Scram]

Remember the "Delaney Out" tshirt protest?

Similarly dealt with.

Whatever about the stewards, the Gardai shouldn't have gotten involved. Hard to argue that such a banner was inciting anything or breaching the peace.

P.S. Closer to facism than communism IMO...

Both incidents are PROPOSTEROUS. The Gardai in this case have absolutely no leagal authority to confiscate any banner. Anyone say otherwise? Is there some small print on the back of tickets?

[edit: just saw above, but the enforcement was because of the content of the banner, not just because it was a banner]

ps. a bit unfair to say "at Croke Park"...it is unlikely that GAA are making these calls.

It's just bullying, but that's how this country is! The Gardai are a force for use by the elite as they wish, protestors are videotaped, beaten, chastised and villified. That is why nobody spoke about many injustices for may years, as we all know.

I was going to making an extreme comment with regards to recently revelaed incidents which show how the state and it's puppets can get away with dreadful actions while the ordianry punter is bullied but this would probaly be an over-reaction.

This is a misuse of power over a petty incident while criminals go about their business with impunity.

A case should be taken for the return of the stolen items.

Boycott the play-offs :-)

[SuperDave]

The gardai are required to enforce the law. They are not specifically required to enforce the terms and conditions on the back of a ticket. They are not a private police force.

Okay, let me spell this out

Breach of the terms of that contract is a trespass

trespass is a crime

the gardai can take steps to stop crimes

and thus can stop you committing a trespass

really? got it now?

[Scram]

The enforcement is being done based on THE CONTENT of banners/flags. That is the problem.

[SuperDave]

The enforcement is being done based on THE CONTENT of banners/flags. That is the problem.

Yeah that's definitely true.... if they wanted to they could get rid of all flags and banners but instead they do so selectively. It is a political choice, but who is making the choice? Is it individual little Hitlers or is it from above?

[Scram]

Yeah that's definitely true.... if they wanted to they could get rid of all flags and banners but instead they do so selectively. It is a political choice, but who is making the choice? Is it individual little Hitlers or is it from above?

Probably a mixture IMO.

[geysir]

It would be no small coincidence that the banner was caught by the tv cameras
and shortly after that, the stewards intervened.
One can assume within rational level of certainty that the direction to intervene came from a higher authority.

Under normal circumstances, you would hardly need a riot squad to ask a harmless looking punter to move on home.

[geysir]

Okay, let me spell this out

Breach of the terms of that contract is a trespass

trespass is a crime

the gardai can take steps to stop crimes

and thus can stop you committing a trespass

really? got it now?

The anecdotal evidence offered is
"senior" gardai came over to question what was going on he realised that the boys had done nothing and told them to go on ahead. common sense really.

If that is a fair account, then regardless of the technical side of the trespass argument, the interpretation of the incident by the Gardai themselves, supports the idea that the issue was a big nothing for them to get involved in.

[twoenz]

Did the steward then proceed to take over the factories in the name of the state, outlaw private ownership of land or industry, and invest heavily in equal public services for all?



Nah, if that was the case they'd be looking to build massive public white elephants in all the major towns in the land which they'd claim would be for the good of the people.


Oh, hang on...

[twoenz]

The gardai are required to enforce the law. They are not specifically required to enforce the terms and conditions on the back of a ticket. They are not a private police force.



It's obviously a quiet evenings work for them, and people aren't going to turn round and tell them to f**k off, which they probably would to a steward.

[OneRedArmy]

Okay, let me spell this out

Breach of the terms of that contract is a trespass

trespass is a crime

the gardai can take steps to stop crimes

and thus can stop you committing a trespass

really? got it now?Thanks for that Lionel Hutz.

Let's see the precedent.

As said above its selective enforcement. Which is pathetic. I'll say again, the guards DON'T have any obligation to intervene.

[SuperDave]

Thanks for that Lionel Hutz.

Let's see the precedent.

As said above its selective enforcement. Which is pathetic. I'll say again, the guards DON'T have any obligation to intervene.

Like I said, I agree that it is selective enforcement and I agree that it is pretty pathetic but it IS trespass (see the back of your ticket) and if the gardai are asked to intervene to prevent a trespass, they DO have an obligation to intervene.

If you went into your living room and saw a guy in a stripey jumper and a balaclava with a swag bag and you called the gardai and asked them to help how would you feel if they said they had no obligation? Or even if your neighbour started parking his steamroller on your lawn? They're obviously trespassers, so are you saying the gardai have no obligation to intervene?

But anyway, I agree that the selective enforcement thing is a bit much but IMO if the stewards ask the gardai to help, the guards do kind of have an obligation to restrain a trespass. Also, the FAI do pay for the gardai for match days, so they are effectively a private police force inside croke park so if they are asked to jump, the guards should ask how high....

[OneRedArmy]

Fair enough SuperDave.

I accept the legal points, but what angers me is that I doubt if the banner said "Trap is a Legend" either the stewards or the guards would behave in the same way.

FWIW I don't even agree with what the banner said, I just can't abide the slippy slope we are on towards sanitisation and a police state.

[honeymonster]

This banner was in Cusack Section 301 which is where I took the pic. The banner was a white bed sheet with black text only, nothing more. From the RTE streaming highlights the banner that was on TV was a tricolour?! Correct me if i'm wrong but this suggests 2no. incidents..... Shameful.

From those doubting the Gardai involvement, the Ban Garda is directly behind the guy in the white jersey with A Reid on the back. Was trying to get close enough to zoom in on her badge no.

For those of you misreading the incident, the fans banner was not insulting to the manager but merely a reminder to anybody concerned that we have a good premiership level player on good form who is currently frozen out of the squad. Neither insulting or offensive to anybody.

Its a shame that the sycophants in irish news and media haven't challenged the Gardai or FAI officials on their breach of these young lads human rights to engage in peaceful protest.

[MMVIII]

Why do people always think they always have to be right about everything. Removing a banner at a football match when it is not in the slightest way offensive is absolutely ridiculous and the fact there are people here standing behind the decision shows ye up quite well.

Another note, banning flags and banners and the like at a football game is another ridiculous move. I presume this is the GAA's rule. They'd have some craic trying to enforce that at a Gah match. Yet, it doesn't seemed to have been enforced too well thankfully.

[reder]

Why were the Italian Ultras in the Davin lower allowed to show their banner then? God only knows what that said. Some of the stewards down the front actually took photos for them. The police were bang out of order taking their names.

[John83]

... Removing a banner at a football match when it is not in the slightest way offensive is absolutely ridiculous and the fact there are people here standing behind the decision shows ye up quite well...
Some people have argued that it's not illegal. This is not the same thing at all.

[bennocelt]

That would be where the allowance of removing it comes from.

If someone came to your house for dinner then after eating revealed a t-shirt saying 'your cooking sucks' you'd be none too happy. It's pretty much the same situation. It's not really a free speech issue as much as a breach of contract / private property / trespass issue. I don't really have a problem with it. However, it is pretty obvious that it does the FAI more harm than good censoring like this so you do have to question the effectiveness of it.

FFS man this is football, go back to your rugby or whatever:rolleyes:

[Murfinator]

Well maybe soccer fans wouldn't have such a bad name if undermining your team's management in your home ground on the day you're qualifying for the play-offs wasn't such an acceptable act among fellow supporters? :rolleyes:

I can only imagine how rugby fans would act if somebody came to a Six Nations game with a protest sign against kidney to "BRING BACK SHANE HORGAN". I'd imagine they'd be none too impressed.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I believe fans in your home stadium should be supporting and cheering on the team no matter the off field politics. Save your bickering and whining for talk shows and internet forums.

[geysir]

What a nonsense post.
Most people here are not passing judgement one way or another on the fan's action, they are objecting to the manner in which the FAI over reacted by trying to virtually criminalise the action, out of a state of Delaneyist paranoia.

[Murfinator]

Paranoia at its finest. It's more a case of a few stewards who were probably keeping an eye on a rowdy crew noticed them being disruptive to others looking to get the cameras and audience to notice their silly little sign. They saw them acting like clowns and told them to pack it in.

Nothing unreasonable whatsoever.

[LFCSixty/Eighty]

Paranoia at its finest. It's more a case of a few stewards who were probably keeping an eye on a rowdy crew noticed them being disruptive to others looking to get the cameras and audience to notice their silly little sign. They saw them acting like clowns and told them to pack it in.

Nothing unreasonable whatsoever.

What on earth are you talking about by saying 'noticed them being disruptive to others'!!!!!! As someone that was there watching, they were standing on their own, not blocking anyones view and not impeding anyones exit from the stadium. Along with that, it was more than a few stewards, it was also gardai. If they had told them to 'pack it in' I'm sure there wouldn't have been an issue but their names were taken by the garda and their tickets were taken by the stewards, along with the banner. It was only for the intervention of a senior guard that brought common sense to the whole situation.

So please get your facts right before you post up your 'silly little comment' next time please!!

[SkStu]

this is a bit of a non-story though, surely? Happens all the time, in all walks of life. You say/do something the management dont agree with and your out. Its not communism, its the managements right...

[geysir]

Whether it's within the rights of the management to send in a squad to deal with such a non issue, is besides the point,
it is the farce over the need for such a response to such a non threatening/non issue.


http://pauliecannoli.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/anarchy-cartoon.jpg

[Murfinator]

Whether it's within the rights of the management to send in a squad to deal with such a non issue, is besides the point,
it is the farce over the need for such a response to such a non threatening/non issue.


Isn't that the exact same thing this thread is doing? :rolleyes:

[geysir]

Isn't that the exact same thing this thread is doing? :rolleyes:

Not so, it appears that in line with most things here, you miss the point.