How depressing is the seeding news?

[Yard of Pace]

I'm numb about this. It's enough being punished for past sins by being seeded in the groups.
If the groups were arranged fairly, surely all the teams who finish second should be treated equally?

That said, I'm extra nervous when Ireland go into matches as favourites (however slight) and I think I'd prefer us to play someone like Greece, Portugal or Croatia than Bosnia or Norway or someone.

[Lenny82]

If 2 teams tie on points for 2nd place does it go down to goal difference or games played against each other?

If it's goal difference, then Sweden have a good chance of holding onto 2nd place ahead of Portugal, Latvia (if they draw in Greece) could sneek into 2nd spot by outscoring Greece in the last game of the group (Lat v Mol, Gre v Lux), Slovenia could hold on to 2nd place ahead of Czech, and there is a chance Ukraine can catch Croatia if they beat England at home (not that it matters in terms of seeding).

Russia/Germany, France and Bosnia have all secured 2nd place. If it was to work out as above, Russia/Germany, France, Croatia/Ukraine and ourselves would be in the top seeds. It's a long shot but there is always a possibility.

Although, if we win our last 2 games and Cyprus snaggle a draw against Italy then we can forget about this play-off fixing scandal!!!!

[geysir]

If we were in the top 4 group then I suppose everybody would think that it was our fully deserved hard earned right to be seeded and FIFA done good.

[Stuttgart88]

In a way, a tie against a potentially complacent France could be easier than a nationalistically fired up Bosnia.

I'll take what comes to be honest. I just hope we get to the playoffs first.

[gwhite]

I felt like puking up my breakfast after reading about this but after thinking about it, apart from the Germany/Russia group, I'd fancy our chances against any of the others. Shame though, I had my heart set on a trip to Ljubljana.

[magnumpi]

it was my understanding that the seeing would work on FIFA rankings, not based on the points we finish with in the group, so we are destinted to play either france, russia, greece or croatia, and so we can't play sweden, slovenia or bosnia.

so, out of those, i'd say i'd take my chances against greece or at a push croatia,

(being the two i'd say that there's less of an "interest" from within FIFA to get them to the world cup)

[Junior]

In a way, a tie against a potentially complacent France could be easier than a nationalistically fired up Bosnia.

I'll take what comes to be honest. I just hope we get to the playoffs first.


Agree with that, though I really really hope we beat Italy and with a play off spot secured the final game against Montenegro really meaning something and with plenty of pressure on Italy to deliver a result it would make it really interesting and nervewracking - but in a good way!!!!

[elroy]

Agree with that, though I really really hope we beat Italy and with a play off spot secured the final game against Montenegro really meaning something and with plenty of pressure on Italy to deliver a result it would make it really interesting and nervewracking - but in a good way!!!!

From some reason the penalty shoot out against Spain comes to mind here, Remember Beglin saying as Finnan steped up to take the last, "make them finish the job Steve" or something along those lines, anyway my point is if we only get a draw at home to Italy, happy days for Italy home and dry. Whereas if we win, it puts all the pressure on them, they must win at home to Cyprus, you never know what could happen in that scenario.

[Comic Book Guy]

Sickening to see FIFA do a u -turn on this. Am I surprised? No, after all it is obvious that they are making sure that countries with big tv audiences qualify. They are also trying to give players like Ronaldo every chance of being there.
Decisions like this really shake my love of the game to the core, but then we are talking about a rotten corrupt organisation like FIFA here.

[shakermaker1982]

would you guys want Ribery running at Kilbane or McShane? France are not the force they were but they still have the individuals to conjure up a bit of magic and capitalise on any defensive howlers. Henry at LR a few years back is a painful memory.....

We have to get 2nd place first but we are still in with a shot of 1st and two wins next month would make the other nations sit up and take notice if we still finished second.

[Fitzy]

I don't know why people are assuming that Sweden, Russia and Croatia are definitely going to be in the play-offs. I think Portugal will make 2nd place in Group 1. They have 2 winnable games at home, and unless Sweden win in Denmark I can't see them getting second. We would have no chance against Portugal, imagine Ronaldo running at Kilbane over 180 minutes.

Russia have got Germany at home next and if they win they will probably win Group 4. The Germans have also got Finland at home in their last game, and they have a bad recent record against them (2 draws in 2002 World Cup qualifiers, without these Beckham's goal against Greece wouldn't have mattered). To be honest, I'd rather draw the Germans than the Russians in a play-off. I think Russia have got a very good side now and a great manager, and Moscow in November is the ultimate nightmare draw. I think the Germans would probably beat us as well, but I don't think they are as good as everyone thinks they are.

If the Ukraine beat England in Kiev then Croatia are as good as out, as Ukraine play Andorra in their last game. Not sure if they will but it's more than possible as England have nothing to play for. Also Norway are as good as out as the worst placed second team, so I'm not sure why they are being mentioned. If we draw France, Russia or Portugal I think we'll lose; Germany or Croatia we'll probably lose but we'd have an outside chance; Czech Republic, Greece or Ukraine is the best we can hope for out of the top seeds.

[Jicked]

Terrible news alright, in a play-off situation the bigger boys usually have enough over two legs. Even when it's a one off they seem to scrape through, I'm fearing a repeat of the Netherlands play-off in Anfield.
On a separate note, what's the deal with a Russian visa if we were to play them, are they difficult/expensive to get?

[Crosby87]

I woke up yesterday and saw the seeding news on the world cup page of soccernet, and i posted it foolishly without a link figuring it was old news as I am 5 hours behind Dublin here in NY....But I apologize for not linking it yesterday morning.

You know what else I was curious about, would as many Irish fans travel to a place like say Serbia or Greece as would travel to Paris? Taking into consideration this doesnt happen every year (or even every 4th year)? I would consider going to many places but not Serbia.

[Den Perry]

What exactly are "the real interests of football?" Some would say having the best teams at the major tournaments is in the best interests.

If we can't beat another second placed team, regardless of their reputation, we don't deserve to be in South Africa.


that's an absolute rubbish post

[carloz]

Its just bloody favourtism again by FIFA and not in any bit surprising. They are worried about the revenue that will be lost if Germany and France lost in a playoff, so they bring in this joke of a rule a month before the playoffs to assist these teams. They always do this, they essentially have a set list of teams that they want in the world cup. Its no advantage whatsoever to FIFA to have little old Ireland qualifying rather than say Germany. Just look at the World Cup draw for example. 32 teams will have all gone through very tough qualifying and will have deserved their place there. Yet when the draw takes place for the groups, FIFA seeds teams to again assist the big boys. It should be a level playing field in the main competition and only geography should seperate teams.

[Jicked]

I woke up yesterday and saw the seeding news on the world cup page of soccernet, and i posted it foolishly without a link figuring it was old news as I am 5 hours behind Dublin here in NY....But I apologize for not linking it yesterday morning.

You know what else I was curious about, would as many Irish fans travel to a place like say Serbia or Greece as would travel to Paris? Taking into consideration this doesnt happen every year (or even every 4th year)? I would consider going to many places but not Serbia.

Give me a trip to somewhere like Serbia over the same to Paris any day. Paris will have tens of thousands of Irish day trippers, Serbia will be one for the hardcore fans and that always means a better time!

[youngirish]

FIFA are absolute gangsters. It should be a level playing field as all the teams are in the play-offs on merit after finishing second place in groups that were already seeded and should have therefore been of similar quality anyway.

There is only one reason for them to do this and that is to prevent the countries with the big TV audiences from knocking each other out. There is no other possible point to do it. Its shocking that these wan*ers can hijack the world's most popular sport and turn it solely into a business. To decide to wait and see first what teams are likely to make the play-offs and then to announce the draw will be seeded makes it even more obvious of their intentions. It also shows that they don't really give a sh*t whether people know it or not. Maybe they'll start seeding the knockout stages of the World Cup Finals if it looks like Germany, France, England or Brazil might get knocked out in the second round.

Anyone got an email address for FIFA we should give them a piece of our minds?

[shakermaker1982]

Terrible news alright, in a play-off situation the bigger boys usually have enough over two legs. Even when it's a one off they seem to scrape through, I'm fearing a repeat of the Netherlands play-off in Anfield.
On a separate note, what's the deal with a Russian visa if we were to play them, are they difficult/expensive to get?

An English lad from work had a lot of bother with the Russians in trying to sort his visa for the game played on astro turf. I'm pretty sure they lost 2-1 :D. I don't think it was expensive, just the chasing up because there was a back log and the Russian embassy in London didn't sound the friendliest of sorts.

[carloz]

We would have no chance against Portugal
Yeah we would really be ****ed against a team that draws nil nil at home to ten man Albania. We have nothing to worry about in portugal, they have been made to look extremly ordinary in the qualifiers. A bit of me would prefer a team like portugal rather than a real form team like Bosnia

[DeLorean]

Whereas if we win, it puts all the pressure on them, they must win at home to Cyprus, you never know what could happen in that scenario.

I honestly think that the more Italy need to beat Cyprus, the lighter work they will make of it. Obviously, it would still be better that they do need to win. It would be fantastic to win our remaining games anyway, would do an awful lot for our rankings I'd imagine. The win against italy would carry a lot of weight I suspect.

As for the playoff seeding, it's completely backward that it doesn't have to be laid out at the beginning of the qualification process. Not sure why they don't just do that though, it was always going to be the best way of ensuring the big teams are at the Finals.

[Leeside Swagger]

Wouldn't mind Portugal, we've gotten results off them in the past when it mattered. Russia is who you want to avoid, although I do remember Wales going out there in the Euro 2004 playoff and getting a 0-0.

[Den Perry]

Yeah we would really be ****ed against a team that draws nil nil at home to ten man Albania. We have nothing to worry about in portugal, they have been made to look extremly ordinary in the qualifiers. A bit of me would prefer a team like portugal rather than a real form team like Bosnia

But they are the greatest shower of cheats I have seen in football and would always worry against them if the ref was anyway dodgy...

[jbyrne]

Give me a trip to somewhere like Serbia over the same to Paris any day. Paris will have tens of thousands of Irish day trippers, Serbia will be one for the hardcore fans and that always means a better time!

are you sure...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8280399.stm

[Drumcondra 69er]

Wouldn't mind Portugal, we've gotten results off them in the past when it mattered. Russia is who you want to avoid, although I do remember Wales going out there in the Euro 2004 playoff and getting a 0-0.

Also got a spanking off them in 95 when it mattered, would much sooner avoid them.

[Tipp Townie]

are you sure...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8280399.stm

Indeed. Was about to say the same thing..

[Tipp Townie]

Russia is who you want to avoid, although I do remember Wales going out there in the Euro 2004 playoff and getting a 0-0.

Russia are an awful team to get in a play-off situation. I remember the Wales matches well, and they did brilliantly to get a draw in Moscow. However its history which weighs heavily on Russia's side; i'm pretty sure they've only ever lost one 'competitive' home match.. ever (V France in '98). And this includes results as USSR. A phenomenal record.

[Fitzy]

Anyone who fancies our chances over two games against Portugal is insane. I realise they have played badly in their group, that is why they are even struggling to make the play-offs, and ordinary sides like Denmark and Sweden may knock them out. But they are still capable of raising their game, and they are one of the teams to avoid in the play-offs which is why we'll probably get them. For the same reason I think France would not be a great draw. Their only problem is that they have got a clueless manager. There's nothing wrong with a squad that can boast Henry, Ribery, Benzema, Evra, Clichy, Diarra, Gallas etc. We also haven't got a great record against the French.

Anyway, I don't like all this talk of who we are going to get in the play-offs. We haven't got there yet. I just hope that Bulgaria don't win in Cyprus, because if we lose to the Italians then the Montenegro game will be very difficult. They are a good side with outstanding individuals in Jovetic and Vucinic, and it will be a hard game and a very nervy evening if we need to win.

[Greenbod]

Don't understand all the uproar.

If we were good enough in the past, we'd be seeded and have no complaints.

If we're good enough now, we'll beat a seeded team in the play off.

If we were good enough during the group stage, we'd qualify without a play-off.

Any team that beats us in a play-off, deserves to qualify ahead of us....if we are good enough we'll qualify.

[MeathDrog]

What exactly are "the real interests of football?" Some would say having the best teams at the major tournaments is in the best interests.

If we can't beat another second placed team, regardless of their reputation, we don't deserve to be in South Africa.
The real interest have been and have always been money.

[MeathDrog]

Don't understand all the uproar.

If we were good enough in the past, we'd be seeded and have no complaints.

If we're good enough now, we'll beat a seeded team in the play off.

If we were good enough during the group stage, we'd qualify without a play-off.

Any team that beats us in a play-off, deserves to qualify ahead of us....if we are good enough we'll qualify.
If and when we finish 2nd, we will have finished 2nd as equals to all the other teams who finish 2nd. After that, there should be no seeding, and if there is, it should have been clarified long before qualification started.

[Den Perry]

Indeed. Was about to say the same thing..

and you know what? If we played an away leg first and Irish fans were attacked, the opposition supporters would still get a warm welcome here in the return leg. Bloody sad!! Remember Russia a few years back?

[magnumpi]

Don't understand all the uproar.

If we were good enough in the past, we'd be seeded and have no complaints.

If we're good enough now, we'll beat a seeded team in the play off.

If we were good enough during the group stage, we'd qualify without a play-off.

Any team that beats us in a play-off, deserves to qualify ahead of us....if we are good enough we'll qualify.

nonsense, it's the fact that it is only being announced NOW that creates the uproar. you could stomach it if you had known all along that this was the case....

[DeLorean]

If and when we finish 2nd, we will have finished 2nd as equals to all the other teams who finish 2nd.

Just playing the devil's advocate for a second but if all the 2nd placed teams are equal then theoretically, it shouldn't make a difference if there is seeding or not:) Of course, we know this isn't the case.


it should have been clarified long before qualification started.

This is the big issue I feel really. If it was stated before the competition commenced that teams were being rewarded for higher placed rankings, then we couldn't have an issue with it really.

[MeathDrog]

nonsense, it's the fact that it is only being announced NOW that creates the uproar. you could stomach it if you had known all along that this was the case....
FIFA are in a way covering their arses by announcing it now. They can argue that they don't know who will be in the playoffs in any of the groups. But lets face it, they have a fair idea of who will be in each.

[MeathDrog]

Just playing the devil's advocate for a second but if all the 2nd placed teams are equal then theoretically, it shouldn't make a difference if there is seeding or not:) Of course, we know this isn't the case.
.
I know that like, but in terms of merit, all the teams who came 2nd are equal. Same way the 2 team who reach a final are deemed the 2 best teams in a tournament, but this isn't always true.

[DeLorean]

I know that like, but in terms of merit, all the teams who came 2nd are equal. Same way the 2 team who reach a final are deemed the 2 best teams in a tournament, but this isn't always true.

I wasn't overly serious really. It's really just the timing of the ruling that I have a major issue with though, although it would probably make more sense just to have an open draw anyway, when each team has reached a certain standard.

[MeathDrog]

I wasn't overly serious really. It's really just the timing of the ruling that I have a major issue with though, although it would probably make more sense just to have an open draw anyway, when each team has reached a certain standard.
Aye I know what you meant like. ;)

Yeah I agree with your point. An open draw would be the fairest way, but not necessarily the best way of making money for FIFA, so of course its never going to happen. :rolleyes:

[geysir]

Did FIFA ever indicate that it would be an open draw? I don't remember seeing a FIFA statement on that.

[conorg]

Is there not an outside chance that we could be one of the seeded teams? e.g. if Sweden/Slovenia/Bosnia/Ukraine all finish second they are all ranked below us?

[DeLorean]

Did FIFA ever indicate that it would be an open draw? I don't remember seeing a FIFA statement on that.

Don't know. I think it's fair to assume an open draw unless otherwise stated though, or at least it should be. In any well run competition the rules are decided beforehand, you don't just make them up as you go along.

[carloz]

Think UEFA did something similar for the playoffs to Euro 2000. Came out with this great idea to seed a few months before the playoff matches. There was uproar and they backed down, but then look at the draw that happened, as if by coincidence.

Scotland v England
Israel v Denmark
Slovenia v Ukraine
Ireland v Turkey

The four teams that would have been seeded were all kept away from each other, and all played away first. The hot balls trick was no doubt done here. UEFA/FIFA always get what they bloody want

[DeLorean]

Scotland v England
Israel v Denmark
Slovenia v Ukraine
Ireland v Turkey

Although the away teams do seem to be of a higher standard, I wouldn't have thought there would have been much advantage for UEFA having Ukraine there instead of Slovenia, Denmark instead of Ireland, etc?

[Leeside Swagger]

It was originally supposed to be an open draw but the prospect of Germany not qualifying swung the decision according to this:

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2009/0930/ireland.html

[geysir]

Don't know. I think it's fair to assume an open draw unless otherwise stated though, or at least it should be. In any well run competition the rules are decided beforehand, you don't just make them up as you go along.

For this WC play off draw, I don't regard it as safe to assume it was going to be an open draw just because FIFA did not make it clear beforehand.

It was more likely that there would be repeat of what happened in the previous WC play off draw when FIFA rankings were used to seed the teams into 2 pots.

Afaia FIFA have not made a u-turn on this play off draw format.
People are confusing a hope that it would be an open draw with a (non-existing) FIFA statement on the matter

[eaststand85]

It was originally supposed to be an open draw but the prospect of Germany not qualifying swung the decision according to this:

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2009/0930/ireland.html

"Irish fans would have been hoping for a kind draw against the likes of Slovenia, Northern Ireland, Bosnia or Slovakia, but that possibility now seems unlikely if FIFA stick to their guns."

I presume this is just wishful thinking on behalf of the person who wrote this article and there is no chance of FIFA not sticking to their guns considering Blatter has a neck like a jockey's nether regions? Certainly wouldn't appear that John Delaney is going to rock the boat!

FAI Chief Executive John Delaney remains optimistic about Ireland's chances in spite of the revised seeding system.

"Speaking in today's Irish Daily Mail, Delaney insisted: 'I'm not too sure where that [seeded draw] will place us but we've got concentrate first on what we've got to do.

'We've got to try and beat Italy and take it to the last game. And if we end up in the play-offs, we'd have been delighted to have got to the play-offs at the start of the group and we'll take what we get.'

He added: 'All I will say is that and team who finishes second mustn't have been top team in their group, obviously. So it gives you a chance.'"

[eaststand85]

For this WC play off draw, I don't regard it as safe to assume it was going to be an open draw just because FIFA did not make it clear beforehand.

It was more likely that there would be repeat of what happened in the previous WC play off draw when FIFA rankings were used to seed the teams into 2 pots.

Afaia FIFA have not made a u-turn on this play off draw format.
People are confusing a hope that it would be an open draw with a (non-existing) FIFA statement on the matter


Why then is every single news outlet saying FIFA originally planned to host an open draw? Doesn't really matter either way as the point most people appear to be making (and with which I agree) is that the draw arrangements should have been clarified before the group matches even got under way.

[DeLorean]

the prospect of Germany not qualifying swung the decision

I don't see anything to indicate this, am I missing something?


For this WC play off draw, I don't regard it as safe to assume it was going to be an open draw just because FIFA did not make it clear beforehand.

It was more likely that there would be repeat of what happened in the previous WC play off draw when FIFA rankings were used to seed the teams into 2 pots

Yeah I meant that under normal circumstances you would assume that a scheduled playoff, amongst the 2nd placed teams, would be level playing field. Of course with FIFA/UEFA decisions in the past we didn't assume anything, I just meant the way it should be, not the way it actually is.

[Schumi]

and you know what? If we played an away leg first and Irish fans were attacked, the opposition supporters would still get a warm welcome here in the return leg. Bloody sad!! Remember Russia a few years back?
What a ridiculous post. You think it'd be better if away fans coming here were attacked?

[geysir]

Why then is every single news outlet saying FIFA originally planned to host an open draw? Doesn't really matter either way as the point most people appear to be making (and with which I agree) is that the draw arrangements should have been clarified before the group matches even got under way.
That would be different than calling the decision a u-turn.

I don't know why some of the media outlets assumed the position that FIFA had made a decision on the format and now changed their minds.

I thought it was assumed we would be búggered.

[Greenbod]

If and when we finish 2nd, we will have finished 2nd as equals to all the other teams who finish 2nd. After that, there should be no seeding, and if there is, it should have been clarified long before qualification started.

And if like you say we're equal to all the other teams who finish 2nd, what's the problem? We have as good a chance against any of them. If there is seeding, what difference does it make whether announced now or a year ago?