Fenlon advocates All Ireland League

[dong]

What are your views on this now? There are a lot of questions in my mind. Mainly:
1. would it really improve attendances?
2. what teams would be involved?

[MariborKev]

Next week: "Fenlon advocates reunification of Korea". Complete soundbites from Frodo.

For my thoughts see http://foot.ie/blog/all-ireland-league-bullet-dodged/

[Magicme]

What are your views on this now? There are a lot of questions in my mind. Mainly:
1. would it really improve attendances?
2. what teams would be involved?

1. I cant see that it would really. The odd game like Derry v some of the northern sides might have a larger crowd but they are almost as apathetic in the Irish League as they are here to going to games. So I dont think it will make a difference.

2. Not us anyway. That has been made clear by the discussions over the past few years. I dont expect many of you to mourn that if it happens though as I fear alot of fans would like to see us go the way of Cobh.

[Kivlehan]

Depends on what your goals are. If you are a Dublin or Belfast based club, an All-Ireland League or a Celtic Premier League could offer a more prosperous future. If you are Sligo Rovers or Bray Wanderers, the current setup is probably superior as in a bigger league those clubs would be stuck in the first division without dreams of European competition.

Really there are only a few cities on the island of Ireland that could support clubs that could be big enough to make group stages in Europe on a regular basis and be financially successful, Dublin, Belfast and maybe Cork and Derry.

The path forward that would be most effective in generating better European showings and greater public interest would probably be a merger better not only the leagues of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, but also a merger with the Welsh league and a Scottish league that has lost Celtic and Rangers to the English Premier League. Basically the Celtic League model. Obviously leagues below the Celtic Premier League would be national.

Short of that, an All-Ireland league is the next most viable way to go to generate better European fortunes and public interest for the Dublin and Belfast clubs. The Platinum One approach was one of the better ones I've seen, in that it stopped promotion and relegation for a few years and attempted to let the clubs gain traction, and then limited Premier division participation to clubs that could meet certain standards.

If you are a fan of a Dublin or Belfast club, the All-Ireland (or All-Celtic) setups would produce better days but supporters of clubs in the smaller areas probably would not benefit.

[White Horse]

It would improve attendences for the teams involved. There would be a novelty factor that would provide a temporary boost at least. It would be fairly devastating for premier teams not involved.

I would expect it to to be a ten team league, with the top 6 LOI teams invited.

[Macy]

What are your views on this now? There are a lot of questions in my mind. Mainly:
1. would it really improve attendances?
2. what teams would be involved?
1. Very short term, because...
2. They'd do it as an 8 or 10 team league

I believe if you did it as 16-18 team league, you'd retain the interest for longer, especially of the big games. The visit of Linfield/ Glens/ Rovers/ Bohs would be more of an event if it was only once a season.

Without proper licencing and control of clubs, and a sustainable model of sponsorship of the new league, it would only be a short term gain though. Clubs would be better working within the constraints they have now, showing they can go a season without one of the big clubs being in financial trouble, before it should be considered.

[BohDiddley]

There's a lot of extraneous stuff confusing this discussion, and there are strong vested interests in the status quo. If someone suggested running rugby or GAA on a partitioned basis tomorrow, their suggestion rightly would be dismissed. Yet here we are rehearsing all sorts of excuses for keeping the game divided.

I would suggest that if you are demanding a cast-iron guarantee that attendances would increase in a merged league, then you already have your mind made up. An all-Ireland league automatically would have a much bigger supporter base, would comprise more clubs that are viable, and would have a much improved geographical balance. (That this has to be spelt out is in itself a measure of how obtuse the debate has become.) While there might be some sectarian resistance, such a league also would benefit from much public goodwill -- something distinctly lacking in Irish football right now -- and from institutional support.

Somehow, we have to get past the blockage in this discussion where we are willing to sacrifice an all-island league and all of its advantages for the sake of individual outfits (of course a bigger league will favour bigger clubs -- that's the idea!), for the sake of incumbent bureaucracies in the FAI and IFA, and for a meaningless few extra trips in Europe.

[Macy]

would comprise more clubs that are viable
Why would clubs be more viable - if a clubs overspending in the LoI or IL, why wouldn't it in an AIL?

[pineapple stu]

And let's now forget how crowds have soared in the Setanta Cup.

These threads help me imagine what a Derry City AGM is like. People loudly and arrogantly dismiss others' opinions as nonsense, without any real back-up other than to say they're holding the league back, when in actuality those who shout loudest generall have utterly groundless opinions easily refuted with the briefest of consideration. But they promise improvement, and we want improvement, so people will still listen. What a world we live in.

[sonofstan]

And let's now forget how crowds have soared in the Setanta Cup.

These threads help me imagine what a Derry City AGM is like. People loudly and arrogantly dismiss others' opinions as nonsense, without any real back-up

Bohs ones are, of course, entirely different. Socratic, almost.

[BohDiddley]

Why would clubs be more viable
There would be more clubs with bigger support. Linfield have more supporters than Bray. And the overall market would be bigger.

if a clubs overspending in the LoI or IL, why wouldn't it in an AIL?
I don't know about overspending in the IL. But a pre-existing problem in the LoI is no reason to dismiss an all-Ireland league. Overspending is not an inherent part of the proposal.

[BohDiddley]

And let's now forget how crowds have soared in the Setanta Cup.

These threads help me imagine what a Derry City AGM is like. People loudly and arrogantly dismiss others' opinions as nonsense, without any real back-up other than to say they're holding the league back, when in actuality those who shout loudest generall have utterly groundless opinions easily refuted with the briefest of consideration. But they promise improvement, and we want improvement, so people will still listen. What a world we live in.
What are UCD AGMs like?

[redobit]

Heard a very good comment on the AIL by a N.I. league fan. Basically he said:

'At the moment my furthest away game is a short distance. Why would we want an AIL that would mean I'd have to travel to somewhere like Limerick, to see my team play in the second tier of a league that would have a worse standard of football that we have now.'

[sonofstan]

The best option in terms of football quality and crowds would be the current LoI premier plus Linfield/ Glens. Un-sellable though.

[MariborKev]

And let's now forget how crowds have soared in the Setanta Cup.

These threads help me imagine what a Derry City AGM is like. People loudly and arrogantly dismiss others' opinions as nonsense, without any real back-up other than to say they're holding the league back, when in actuality those who shout loudest generall have utterly groundless opinions easily refuted with the briefest of consideration. But they promise improvement, and we want improvement, so people will still listen. What a world we live in.


That presumes we hold ones.......

[White Horse]

Heard a very good comment on the AIL by a N.I. league fan. Basically he said:

'At the moment my furthest away game is a short distance. Why would we want an AIL that would mean I'd have to travel to somewhere like Limerick, to see my team play in the second tier of a league that would have a worse standard of football that we have now.'

Fair comment.

How would that fan get to the match in Limerick?

Is there a train from Belfast to Limerick/Cork/Galway etc?

Unless you live in Dublin, its almost impossible to get to games without long bus journeys.

[John83]

What are UCD AGMs like?
Three men walk into a bar...

[Sheridan]

I don't think anyone wants cast-iron guarantees, they just want some sort of logical basis for the presumption that an AIL is going to carry any benefits whatsoever. On the face of it, the idea of merging two poorly-supported leagues with very little relevance to one another doesn't provide that basis. SSC proves that there's no particular appetite for cross-border competition.

The only possible boon would be in the huge marketing and promotion push which would have to accompany the league's launch. But if the will was there, couldn't we do that for the league we have anyway?

[pineapple stu]

What are UCD AGMs like?
What does that have to do with anything?

But thanks for backing up the part of my post where I accused others of groundlessly dismissing others' opinions.

I probably shouldn't be, but I'm amazed that people can still think the AIL is a panacea for the league, or state that "The Platinum One approach was one of the better ones I've seen". I think the inability to learn or to think ideas through rationally shown here is a microcosm of the league in general.

[BohDiddley]

What does that have to do with anything?
It's relevance is roughly equivalent to your reference to Derry AGMs, which was sort of the point.
But humour me. What are they like anyway?

[pineapple stu]

Its relevance is roughly equivalent to your reference to Derry AGMs, which was sort of the point.
I was making a point with my comparison, pointing out the ways and means (and results) of Walter-Mitty-esque dreamers with no solid plans, likening it to the attitude of a few on this thread and wondering when people will learn to think things through properly and not shout down those who disagree. You've no point to make at all.

[endabob1]

Heard a very good comment on the AIL by a N.I. league fan. Basically he said:

'At the moment my furthest away game is a short distance. Why would we want an AIL that would mean I'd have to travel to somewhere like Limerick, to see my team play in the second tier of a league that would have a worse standard of football that we have now.'


I think beneath a top level it should still be regionalised to reduce costs and to retain the autonomy for the FAI & IFA over development of the "grass roots"

In answer to the original questions;

1. would it really improve attendances?
Yes for 2 reasons
A) Novelty value and Proper marketing (Said with my optomistic hat on)
B) Clubs with bigger Support, as mentioned elsewhere the visit of Linfield to Tallagh would generate more interest than the visit of Bray (as an example)

The real question is "would it improve attendances enough"and sadly I think the answer to that is a resounding No.

2. What teams would be involved?
Well it depends on the size of the league but assuming a 10/12 team top Division, you're probably going to have something very similar to the Platinum One proposals,
2/3 Belfast/NI
1 Derry
1 Galway
1 Limerick
1 Cork
3/4 Dublin
possibly 1 other if it's a 12 teamer.

No names mentioned but from a population/catchment standpoint that would be the most likely split imo.

Of course that's all to assume that if an all-Ireland league did happen it would involve the current clubs, you might get some mad MLS style benefactor coming in and franchising al the teams, he might have trouble picking a name for Cork though, they must have run out of names by now :D

[BohDiddley]

I was making a point with my comparison, pointing out the ways and means (and results) of Walter-Mitty-esque dreamers with no solid plans, likening it to the attitude of a few on this thread and wondering when people will learn to think things through properly and not shout down those who disagree. You've no point to make at all.

OK. You don't want to tell me what your AGMs are like. I can understand that. I'm sorry for asking.

But can you please make a rational argument, rather than simply attacking those who support a proposal which you clearly don't like?
So far, it seems to me, the objections are...


My team will not be in the top division
My team will be in a second tier where the standard of football is not as good as the first tier
I will have to travel further to away games (which seems a good argument for a Dublin-only league)
An AIL will not be a panacea.


All of those, bar the last, are sectional considerations and are irrelevant except insofar as smaller clubs will vote against an AIL.
The last is a false argument. No one is claiming AIL as a panacea. I certainly do not consider it a silver bullet. But it is a platform that would better facilitate solutions that would go beyond the initial hoopla.
Now, can someone make a positive statement as to why, given a choice, Irish football should opt to organize on a smaller scale than is possible?

[White Horse]

2. What teams would be involved?
Well it depends on the size of the league but assuming a 10/12 team top Division, you're probably going to have something very similar to the Platinum One proposals,
2/3 Belfast/NI
1 Derry
1 Galway
1 Limerick
1 Cork
3/4 Dublin
possibly 1 other if it's a 12 teamer.

No names mentioned but from a population/catchment standpoint that would be the most likely split imo.

Limerick and Galway are red herrings in my opinion. The may be large urban areas but they are not football towns.

In addition, they are too difficult to get to from anywhere but Dublin. They will attract poor away support by NI teams.

An all-Ireland league will need to attract good away support. There are just not enough home supporters to ensure good gates. Fans need to travel to make up the numbers.

[Mr A]

Balls to franchise football.

Also- If the 'big' clubs are looking to improve things they should start by looking a lot closer to home.

[endabob1]

Limerick and Galway are red herrings in my opinion. The may be large urban areas but they are not football towns.

In addition, they are too difficult to get to from anywhere but Dublin. They will attract poor away support by NI teams.

An all-Ireland league will need to attract good away support. There are just not enough home supporters to ensure good gates. Fans need to travel to make up the numbers.

I agree to a certain degree about Limerick, traditionally a Rugby Town & Galway, traditionally a lazy student & hippy town (joke) but I think they would be included for the simple reason that the populations are there.
However I also think if an AIL was to get off the ground and work it needs to expand its supporter base beyond current levels. Sligo & Athlone are what I would descirbe as traditional football towns but because of their size there is always a cap on how much support they will get, regardless of the rights or wrongs, when this is being looked at with a cold business heart, Athlone will not be included.

The transport issue could just as easily be applied to Cork & for that matter getting to Derry from Dublin/Munster is not much fun.

[pineapple stu]

Have you seen what's happened to Galway since last they were considered indispensible to the Premier due to ther large catchment area?

What do you think would happen differently under your idea?

Do you not think it's a teensy bit silly to be proposing something which failed just three years ago?

[marinobohs]

.

I probably shouldn't be, but I'm amazed that people can still think the AIL is a panacea for the league, or state that "The Platinum One approach was one of the better ones I've seen". I think the inability to learn or to think ideas through rationally shown here is a microcosm of the league in general.

Nobody is suggesting that an AIL is the "panacea for the League". there is very major problems in the current set up and these must be addressed - Bohs Derry Dundalk Cork - all this season. it would appear that full time football is not viable within the current structure, If full time football is to be maintained (as many pundits believe is best option) then the League structure must change.
People will never go to support a League of part time UCD type clubs, unfortunate but reality.
There remains a lot of work to do around any AIL proposal but rejecting the idea out of hand is narrowminded and does nothing for Irish football (North or South)

[endabob1]

Have you seen what's happened to Galway since last they were considered indispensible to the Premier due to ther large catchment area?

What do you think would happen differently under your idea?

Do you not think it's a teensy bit silly to be proposing something which failed just three years ago?

Where have I propsed anything?

I have said I don't think an AIL would get sufficient support
I have said if someone is trying it (like Platinum One) they will look at it from a business perspective and not take into account tradition etc.. it will be about business and business only.

To quote Jim Diamond "I should have known better"

[White Horse]

I agree to a certain degree about Limerick, traditionally a Rugby Town & Galway, traditionally a lazy student & hippy town (joke) but I think they would be included for the simple reason that the populations are there.
However I also think if an AIL was to get off the ground and work it needs to expand its supporter base beyond current levels. Sligo & Athlone are what I would descirbe as traditional football towns but because of their size there is always a cap on how much support they will get, regardless of the rights or wrongs, when this is being looked at with a cold business heart, Athlone will not be included.

The transport issue could just as easily be applied to Cork & for that matter getting to Derry from Dublin/Munster is not much fun.

Its all about numbers, the average home gate would need to be over 2,000 to support a decent standard of football. Cork and Derry may be difficult to get to but they can largely achieve this with just home support.

What do Galway get? 1000? And Limerick? 500 or so.

That is why I think these clubs are red herrings.

[pineapple stu]

Where have I propsed anything?
You're right; I mistook the Platinum One proposals you listed as your own. Apologies.


it would appear that full time football is not viable within the current structure, If full time football is to be maintained (as many pundits believe is best option) then the League structure must change.
This is what I mean by "panacea for the league"; it's probably not the most water-tight of phrases.

There's nothing to suggest yet another change will suddenly bring about a viable full-time league. The Setanta Cup, in fact, argues strongly that it won't. There's also nothing to suggest that we must have full-time football. A part-time league will continue to exist. We mightn't get the results in Europe we've had the last few years, but at least clubs will stop going bankrupt every couple of months. I'm curious why people can't be happy with this, and build from there, rather than trying desperately to maintain the status quo.


There remains a lot of work to do around any AIL proposal but rejecting the idea out of hand is narrowminded and does nothing for Irish football (North or South)
If that was aimed at me, I've said before and I'll say again now that I'm in favour of an AIL (although mainly for political reasons). I don't see it changing much in the league, and I dislike the notion that we "must change" because the present is bad.

[endabob1]

You're right; I mistook the Platinum One proposals you listed as your own. Apologies.

No worries


If that was aimed at me, I've said before and I'll say again now that I'm in favour of an AIL (although mainly for political reasons). I don't see it changing much in the league, and I dislike the notion that we "must change" because the present is bad.

I agree & I too am broadly in favour of an AIL as I do think it could potentially be a viable proposition which would mean better players staying at home & a strong domestic league will benefit the national team(s) in the long run.
But putting 2 badly run, badly supported leages together will change f--k all, if it's going to be it has to be done right and it needs a hell of a lot of work on both sides of the border plus a massive investment to get it off the ground. I don't see either of these 2 hurdles being addressed & for these reasons I would rather it wasn't done until the support is there from both associations, UEFA & whatever sponsors/financial supporters come on board.

[Macy]

People will never go to support a League of part time UCD type clubs, unfortunate but reality.
They're not willing to support a league of full time teams like Bohs, Derry and Cork either.

As a general btw, why is there the constant focus on a 10-12 team league? As part of an AIL, with the opportunity of (at least) two feeder leagues, there's no need to narrow down the number of teams to such an extent. It's narrow minded to be against an AIL, yet all we get are regurgitation of the failed P1 proposal...

I'm actually for an AIL, but not for the reasoning of a vain attempt to sustain ridiculous spending by clubs, and wouldn't be in favour of a small closed shop arrangement. Set minimum standards (like a licence :eek: ), and then it should be a meritocracy.

[pineapple stu]

if it's going to be it has to be done right and it needs a hell of a lot of work on both sides of the border plus a massive investment to get it off the ground.
I'd rather we focussed on doing the hell of a lot of work first, which can be done separately, getting a league of properly-run clubs, and only then looking at an AIL.

[BohDiddley]

I'd rather we focussed on doing the hell of a lot of work first, which can be done separately, getting a league of properly-run clubs, and only then looking at an AIL.
Wouldn't it be better to do the same work in a bigger context?

[pineapple stu]

Not if the "bigger context" detracts from doing the work.

If you have a position where clubs feel they need to improve to make an invitational AIL, then clubs are going to put financial prudence to one side, and you'll end up with an AIL having the exact same problems as now.

There's nothing to stop both leagues getting their houses in order, and only then looking at if they want to merge.

[MariborKev]

Not in my view BD,

The AIL is a "one shot game" where we have to get it right.

[BohDiddley]

Not in my view BD,

The AIL is a "one shot game" where we have to get it right.

So are you saying that you are for it in principle, but the timing isn't right?

[peadar1987]

Have you seen what's happened to Galway since last they were considered indispensible to the Premier due to ther large catchment area?

What do you think would happen differently under your idea?

Do you not think it's a teensy bit silly to be proposing something which failed just three years ago?

I worked in Galway for 2 weeks earlier this year as a watersports instructor. I probably worked with 40-50 kids over that period of time, and only one of the ones I talked to actually knew where Terryland was and who played there. On all of my wanderings through the city, I never once saw any sort of promotion for a Galway game. I think the low attendances could be due to more than an apathy of the population towards football.

As for an all-Ireland league, I'm neither particularly for or against it. I think it's more important for both leagues to sort out their own houses than it is to merge them.

[CMcC]

Do you not think it's a teensy bit silly to be proposing something which failed just three years ago?

Missed that - who won it? Linfield I suppose.

[osarusan]

It seems that some people accept that the EL is facing dire commercial threats but dont really want anything to change.
This is not true. We want lots of things to change, but we disagree about how to best effect this change. Some people, including myself, think that an AIL will not address any of the core problems of football in this country.


There is a simple reason why you wont get 20k people attending LoI games notwithstanding the profound cultural and social changes that have taken place, and that's becuase most of the stadia cannot physically acoomodate these numbers.
The simple reason why we don't get 20,000 at games is because not enough people are interested in domestic football. The number of occasions where fans have been turned away due to attendance having reached capacity is virtually nil. And the situation would remain the same even in an AIL in my opinion.

The fact remains that even in an AIL, most of the games will be in the same grounds against the same teams as now. The fact that most clubs are tightening their belts and some are talking about part-time football seems to indicate (to me at least) that we are not going to see any great improvement in the standard of football. So what reason is there to believe that more people will go to watch (for example) Bohs versus Derry, or Cork versus St. Pats, than currently go?

People talk about increased attendances but apart from Linfield, I don't think any of the IL teams would attract any more spectators than we currently get.

Also, increased TV money is often mentioned, but who will pay to cover the AIL? Considering RTE don't want to cover the LOI, and the BBC provides little more than minimal coverage of the IL, I'm not sure that an amalgamation of the two will suddenly have channels vying to cover it.

I'd actually like to see an AIL, but I think that without some serious measures taken to force clubs to be more sensible in their approach to spending, any AIL would have the same problems that the LOI does at the moment (can't really say I know that much about the IL).


And what is the point of disparaging and abusing so-called "bar stoolers?" If you dont want people who are not currently LoI supporters sullying the integrity of this league then stop complaining.
Agreed. I've been saying this for a long time.

[marinobohs]

They're not willing to support a league of full time teams like Bohs, Derry and Cork either.
I'm actually for an AIL, but not for the reasoning of a vain attempt to sustain ridiculous spending by clubs, and wouldn't be in favour of a small closed shop arrangement. Set minimum standards (like a licence :eek: ), and then it should be a meritocracy.

the point made was that if expensive set ups like Bohs Derry Cork cannot attract crowds then reverting to part time football (as appears likely for most/all clubs) is not going to improve the crowd situation.
Nobody is proposing an AIL to "sustain ridiculous spending by clubs" and that is a completely seperate matter to be addressed by clubs themselves.

I would agree with you around meritocracy although this would currently lead to a very narrow location base.As I said, a lot of work to be done on a League model but that should not stop us looking at it now.

Incidentally in the future I would also support a celtic League concept with teams for Ireland, Wales and Scotland (probobly outside Premier initially) competing on a SETANTA Cup type basis.

[Mr A]

Going full-time did not increase crowds, so going part-time probably won't decrease them.

[marinobohs]

Going full-time did not increase crowds, so going part-time probably won't decrease them.

Full time and part time are extremes and there may be somewhere in between. In my opinion full time football has improved the level of football in the LOI and has certainly attracted players that would not be here were it a part time game.
While it is difficult to quantify the impact of full time /part time on crowds I would find it very surprising if reverting to a fully part time League did not have a detremental effect on attendances.

[osarusan]

While it is difficult to quantify the impact of full time /part time on crowds I would find it very surprising if reverting to a fully part time League did not have a detremental effect on attendances.
Maybe true, but I would find it very surprising if the extra income derived from an AIL would allow full-time clubs to be sustainable to a level which income from LOI does not currently allow.

[marinobohs]

Maybe true, but I would find it very surprising if the extra income derived from an AIL would allow full-time clubs to be sustainable to a level which income from LOI does not currently allow.

as I mentioned previously I do not see the AIL as the solution but I would see it as a part of a strategy to improve the League structure. There is no doubt that there would be increased media interest (at least in the short term) and possible greater financial backing for an AIL. If done right it could/should increase income streams.

[gufc2000]

2. Not us anyway. That has been made clear by the discussions over the past few years. I dont expect many of you to mourn that if it happens though as I fear alot of fans would like to see us go the way of Cobh.
I woudn't. I think Monaghan are a model club for many rural teams, steady set-up, invest in infrastructure and youth, and don't spend beyond their means. They are patient, and have kept faith in Mick Cooke, when other clubs would have him long gone

[endabob1]

Not in my view BD,

The AIL is a "one shot game" where we have to get it right.

Spot on

[BohDiddley]

Still a bunch of negatives, but no positive reason has been given to support the continuation of separate leagues in preference to AIL.

[ped_ped]

I can think of only two negatives to the AIL (three if you count the cost to the individual weaker clubs).

1. Common sense (or lack thereof). This will always prevent the AIL going smoothly. The IL will want half the spaces, regardless of the fact that they're drawing on less than half the population.

2. Transport. Limerick and Galway are too far away from Linfield. This shouldn't be an issue, but our rail network is quite simply an abomination. The Dublin teams have no issue, but Linfield vs Galway will be poorly attended.

3. This is totally selfish, but it's a reason negotiations could break down. The likes of Fingal, Limerick, Monoghan. All of us feel we've a shot at promotion, but in an All Ireland League we're pushed further down the pecking order. This isn't a fair reason, but it could influence negotiations.

After this, an AIL could work wonders for the island, politically, and football-wise.