Fenlon advocates All Ireland League

[BohDiddley]

What positive reasons have you given to support the change to an AIL? When there is potential of change to the status quo, I think the onus is on those who support the change to presuade the others why change is beneficial, rather than the other way round.
I've already given them. They're fundamental, while most of the negatives given so far are nit-picking and have nothing to do uniquely with the AIL.

If you take out the small-is-good parochial arguments, and the distractions, such as objections to franchise football, it's a no-brainer.

AIL is bigger. It's got a bigger market, bigger clubs, and a better spread around the country. A serious business organization thought it commercially viable, and they were run out of it. Where else would that happen?

[osarusan]

I've already given them. They're fundamental, while most of the negatives given so far are nit-picking and have nothing to do uniquely with the AIL.

Your first post in this thread

An all-Ireland league automatically would have a much bigger supporter base, would comprise more clubs that are viable, and would have a much improved geographical balance. (That this has to be spelt out is in itself a measure of how obtuse the debate has become.) While there might be some sectarian resistance, such a league also would benefit from much public goodwill -- something distinctly lacking in Irish football right now -- and from institutional support.
How would it make clubs more viable? A club's viability is determined by how much they spend compared to how much they bring in. Lots of clubs overspend, and that problem would still exist (and in my opinion, be exaggerated) in an AIL.

What exactly is the goodwill and institutional support an AIL would be getting?




AIL is bigger. It's got a bigger marketBut the problem is not theat the market is too small. It's that nobody cares about domestic football. A bigger market doesn't solve that. From Pineapple Stu's Attendances thread - Premier Division average - 2,050. That figure multiplied by 5 games means we get just over 10,000 a week watching LOI Premier Division football. From a population of over 4 million.



bigger clubs
How does an AIL make Bohs a bigger club?

I'll ask the question again - what exactly is going to make people come to watch Bohs against Derry an an AIL match that doesn't exist in the LOI?

What TV companies are going to pay serious sums of money to cover it that are not willing to do so now?

[BohDiddley]

Your first post in this thread

How would it make clubs more viable? A club's viability is determined by how much they spend compared to how much they bring in. Lots of clubs overspend, and that problem would still exist (and in my opinion, be exaggerated) in an AIL.
They would have a bigger market to sell to. Can you please cite an example of a business sector that prefers smaller markets?


What exactly is the goodwill and institutional support an AIL would be getting?
Having football supporters come together cross-border has wider political benefits (and I don't mean from a nationalist perspective). It would be seen by official Ireland, north and south, as A Good Thing.


But the problem is not theat the market is too small. It's that nobody cares about domestic football. A bigger market doesn't solve that. From Pineapple Stu's Attendances thread - Premier Division average - 2,050. That figure multiplied by 5 games means we get just over 10,000 a week watching LOI Premier Division football. From a population of over 4 million.
Low interest is the fundamental problem: I absolutely agree. A bigger market alone won't solve it, but the bigger the potential market the greater chance of a solution being found. As I said, if you want someone to argue that the AIL is a magic wand that will cure all of Irish football's ills, you're talking to the wrong person. But it provides a better platform on which to tackle the problems.



How does an AIL make Bohs a bigger club?
It doesn't. At least not directly. AIL would make the average size of clubs bigger. I'm sorry to repeat myself, but see the answer under 'viable'.


I'll ask the question again - what exactly is going to make people come to watch Bohs against Derry an an AIL match that doesn't exist in the LOI?
Nothing about that particular fixture, but a higher profile that an AIL would enjoy has the potential to generate interest. And we would most definitely getting more to watch Bohs v Linfield than Bohs v Bray.


What TV companies are going to pay serious sums of money to cover it that are not willing to do so now?
I haven't seen that claim made. But they are more likely to pay more to cover an AIL game that has audience both sides of the border. P1, which is not a charitable organization, had a business plan that would have factored this in, although I'll grant you that that was pre-recession.

With respect, I think you are taking completely the wrong tack here. You want to know 'exactly' what benefits AIL will bring. I am saying that it will bring basic advantages of scale. How those advantages are realised as concrete gains in audience, revenue and progress in Europe very much depends on how the show is run. Most of the objections raised here are selfish ones (some of them disingenuously so) or relate to issues such as overspending that have nothing at all to do with AIL per se, are already firmly present in LoI, and which without firm regulation would feature under whatever model was adopted.
And I still haven't heard a single positive argument, comparing the two options, in favour of the status quo.

[osarusan]

I am saying that it will bring basic advantages of scale. How those advantages are realised as concrete gains in audience, revenue and progress in Europe very much depends on how the show is run. Most of the objections raised here are selfish ones (some of them disingenuously so) or relate to issues such as overspending that have nothing at all to do with AIL per se, are already firmly present in LoI, and which without firm regulation would feature under whatever model was adopted.

Fair enough. I appreciate the depth of reply.

And while I agree that a lot of the criticism aimed at AIL would be a problem within domestic football under any jurisdiction, I think a lot of the potential positive developments being associated with AIL are possible under any jurisdiction.

I can see your points, but my fear is that an AIL, if not managed properly (and prepared for properly) will be of the same standard as the LOI is now, in the same standard of stadium, watched by the same number of people, with the same levels of advertising and revenue. People will turn up for a game or two and realise it's the same cr@p they weren't interested in before. And in my opinion, the things necessary to persuade those people to come back again and again can be be provided without any AIL (apart from the term 'AIL', of course).

[sonofstan]

And I still haven't heard a single positive argument, comparing the two options, in favour of the status quo.

It's hard to argue for the status quo, either side of the border, but that's not necessarily an argument in favour of any particular option: the most one can reasonably say is that it makes the search for something better more urgent.

I'd be (very) cautiously in favour of some kind of AIL, but it would require an awful lot of planning and of the long term variety. I've no desire for franchise football, but it might be the case that we would need some system of central contracts, and really, really tight controls on spending, to the point of taking large parts of it out of the hands of clubs completely by whatever body runs the league. So, while I don't want to see a North Dublin Galaxy, i might accept Bohs effectively run by the league paying bills, wages, selling advertising and sourcing sponsorship, with the club only concerned with working out how to spend within a budget set for them.

This system should be put in place for a minimum of 5 years, with a renegotiation after that allowing some more freedom to clubs if the league as a whole is prospering.

All sorts of problems raise their heads though: we can probably get over the sectarianism hurdle most of the time, but would you seriously want to be a Rovers/ Bohs/ Cork fan in East Belfast or Coleraine in July? Perhaps for that reason, either a winter season, or a split one might be wiser.

Apart from that, if we are ever to see 5 figure crowds at football here regularly, then there needs to be major spending on grounds - only Windsor and Turner's Cross are even near what's required to even look acceptable on telly, never mind actually look after fans.

[pineapple stu]

How does an AIL make Bohs a bigger club?
With regards the "bigger clubs" argument, it should be noted that the current "big clubs" are - bar Rovers, it seems - big on the basis of utterly unsustainable spending. Shels were a big club three years ago for example, but have now found their true level (and God knows what'll happen when they leave Tolka). These clubs - the ones who happen to be killing themselves at present - are the last clubs we should be pandering to.

The "bigger market" argument is also a fallacy, as Bohs, for example, are a Phibsboro/North Dublin club - that's their market, not the 26 counties. Their market won't become bigger with an AIL.

There doesn't particularly need to be an argument in favour of the status quo; what's sufficient is that the AIL as proposed by, for example, Platinum1 would be worse than the current position, and therefore shouldn't go ahead. It would be worse because -

(a) the P1 business plan is built on sand (I don't for a second believe they had the funding to support the extra prize money they promised)
(b) if clubs try and go fully-pro on the P1 proposals, you'll very quickly end up with a repeat of the current situation, where clubs tried to go fully-pro on the AIG proposals
(c) the AIL is being proposed by people with vested interests - in other words, it's generally those who are dying through overspending trying to deflect attention from their own incompetence and looking to blame someone else
(d) the big clubs who would be looking to be in the league are only big, as noted above, by virtue of overspending; rewarding them by placing them in an AIL would be a catalyst for disaster in the very near future.

In addition, I simply don't believe arguments like increased market size or increased media interest. Until the pro side can back up these claims by more in-depth arguments than "Think about it" or "It has to", then they can't be admitted, and that's really all the pro side has. It's all the AIG side had too, and we can now see that none of the similar promises have come to fruition as a result. (There's increased TV exposure, but this could have been achieved without the AIG system)

Again, I'm in favour of an AIL, but I'd simply merge the two leagues together and not expect anything to change massively.

(And before anyone points it out, all this is dependent on the IL clubs wanting in, which for the moment, they've made clear they don't)

[punkrocket]

Not to mention the thorny issue of 3 o'clock kick offs on Saturday afternoons to be resolved.

[dcfcsteve]

The "bigger market" argument is also a fallacy, as Bohs, for example, are a Phibsboro/North Dublin club - that's their market, not the 26 counties. Their market won't become bigger with an AIL.

This doesn't reflect the reality of football in any country though Stu.

The bigger/better sides - particularly those from the largest population centres, due to the movement of people - tend to attract support from throughout their specific country, rather than just locally. This is the case not just in big footballing markets, but also in Portugal, Belgium, the Netherlands, Scandinavia etc etc etc. If an all-island league did lead to a significant increase in appeal and support for the league - and I appreciate that bit is moot - then itr would undoubtedly see an element of this 'spillover market' support happening. Linfield has support throughout Northern Ireland. Yes - it's largely a 'super prod' thing. But nonetheless - their market is clearly not just a slither of south Belfast.



There doesn't particularly need to be an argument in favour of the status quo; what's sufficient is that the AIL as proposed by, for example, Platinum1 would be worse than the current position, and therefore shouldn't go ahead. It would be worse because -

(a) the P1 business plan is built on sand (I don't for a second believe they had the funding to support the extra prize money they promised).

On what basis do you believe this ?


(b) if clubs try and go fully-pro on the P1 proposals, you'll very quickly end up with a repeat of the current situation, where clubs tried to go fully-pro on the AIG proposals

Perhaps they would. But perhaps not as well - this is moot conjecture. Perhaps they'd all work swimmingly well ? That assertion would be as relevant as your viewpoint. Unless you're suggesting that professional footbal is an inherently dangerous/broken model, then there is the possibility that it could work for some/most/all clubs. Part of the problem for clubs at the moment is that they have such limited forms of revenue that they're scrabbling for money and making a hash of things. Would they do the same in a bigger league ? Perhaps ? But professional football manages to work in a lot of other contries without the chaos we have perennially in Ireland, so perhaps it wouldn't happen. It would also be possible that a bigger more attractive league would attract a broader and more capable range of club administrators who wouldn't be the eejits like Coughlan that we're currently stuck with by default. What competent business person or administrator would want to waste their time on either of the two leagues on this island currently ? Perhaps the two things are inter-linked.


(c) the AIL is being proposed by people with vested interests - in other words, it's generally those who are dying through overspending trying to deflect attention from their own incompetence and looking to blame someone else

I'd agree it's being proposed by those with a vested interest - of course it is. Just like it tends to be opposed by those with a vested interest. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. But I'd disagree with your notion that those in favour of it take that stance purely so they can create a bogeyman for their ills. That's just getting into the realms of conspiracy theories. I would assert their in favour of it because they believe it is best for their club and the league. Since when did anyone in Irish football need a bogeyman to blame for their own incompetence ?? We've had incompetence here for decades (like sex, every generation of LOI fans seem to think theirs is the first to discover/suffer league incompetence), yet there's never been a need for soemthing to blame.


(d) the big clubs who would be looking to be in the league are only big, as noted above, by virtue of overspending; rewarding them by placing them in an AIL would be a catalyst for disaster in the very near future.

Just to be clear then. The only difference between Monaghan United - a club in the league less than 25yrs from a town with a population of about 20,000 - and Bohemians - a club in senior football for over a hundred years and from an area with a population of anywhere form 100,000 upwards - the only reason why one of those clubs is bigger than the other is spending ?!? So if Monaghan went on a big spending spree, they'd be bigger than Cork, Derry, Bohs, Rovers etc etc ?? We both know that that's just nonesense. History and support base determine how big a club is - not a flash in the pan spending spree. Hence why Drogheda have instantly gone back to being a mid-tier club after their brief spending spree has stopped. They haven't become a big club - they just won a bit more silverware than they otherwise would have, and picked-up a small number of new fans.


In addition, I simply don't believe arguments like increased market size or increased media interest. Until the pro side can back up these claims by more in-depth arguments than "Think about it" or "It has to", then they can't be admitted, and that's really all the pro side has. It's all the AIG side had too, and we can now see that none of the similar promises have come to fruition as a result. (There's increased TV exposure, but this could have been achieved without the AIG system)

Firstly - you're arguing against common sense. If your attitude had been adopted, the whole EU would never have gotten off the ground : 'Don't just rationalise with me the benefits of a Common Market. Prove it to me or I'm out'. Hell - humanity would never have left Africa : "I know you've got all these fancy reasons for why there's probably better land and bigger animals on the other side of that big hill, but if you can't PROVE it to me then I'm just going to stay put in this here desert".

Secondly - how can you prove the future ? :confused: All you can do is to make rational judgements based on experience etc to extrapolate what could happen. Yet when such judgements are made they're not good enough - you want crystal ball gazing.

The AIL is by no means all about Platinum One - I believe in the broad concept of an AIL, and have no attachment to their specific plans. But you have to admit that one of the biggest sporting events in Ireland this year will have been Real Madrid playing Rovers in Tallaght, and getting people to pay E60 for the pleasure. A year ago if you'd told people in a pub that thew full Real Madrid team would play Shamrock Rovers and Ronaldo would be making his debut, you'd have been laughed off (and not because of the Ronaldo bit). Yet people still look down their noses at Platinum as fantasists who can't be taken seriously.


Again, I'm in favour of an AIL, but I'd simply merge the two leagues together and not expect anything to change massively.

And that's exactly what would happen - nothing really would change.

An AIL would offer an opportunity to 'relaunch' domestic football in Ireland - to create a bit of noise and interest and buzz around it to open the eyes of some new people to our product. I'm confident that, if done properly by people who know how to market sport (i.e. not the IFA and FAI) then it would attract some new fans initially. I have no idea how many or for how long, but I have seen numerous examples of where hype and interest, if delivered by people who know how to do it, leads directly to increased interest in sport. But you'd prefer to say 'bah humbug' and have two combined leagues with nothign else really changing. In which case we'd get the problems of an all-island league without the benefits

[BohDiddley]

Your arguments around big clubs (I think bigger is a more useful adjective) v small clubs are specious. Put simply, Bohs are bigger than UCD, and not by dint of overspending in recent years.



I simply don't believe arguments like increased market size or increased media interest. Until the pro side can back up these claims by more in-depth arguments than "Think about it" or "It has to", then they can't be admitted, and that's really all the pro side has.
We're into parallel versions of reality here, it seems. In one reality, two small markets merged makes a bigger market. In yours, you believe that doesn't happen, or you seem to want to cling to some sort of small-is-good dogma.


Again, I'm in favour of an AIL, but I'd simply merge the two leagues together and not expect anything to change massively.

A step-change in the size of the league certainly would help, but I agree that it would have to be planned carefully, avoiding expectations of automatic gains. I'm not arguing for a particular model. What I am saying is that Fenlon is right: that AIL has an unstoppable logic.


(And before anyone points it out, all this is dependent on the IL clubs wanting in, which for the moment, they've made clear they don't) True. (But some might when they get fed up with a two-team league.)

[pineapple stu]

We're into parallel versions of reality here, it seems. In one reality, two small markets merged makes a bigger market. In yours, you believe that doesn't happen, or you seem to want to cling to some sort of small-is-good dogma.
I've told you why the "bigger market" argument doesn't hold. Bohs' market is Phibsboro/North Dublin, which won't get bigger in an AIL. But way to ignore whatever parts of my post suit you.

[belfastred]

Is there a link anywhere to Fenlon's comments?

[dcfcsteve]

I've told you why the "bigger market" argument doesn't hold. Bohs' market is Phibsboro/North Dublin, which won't get bigger in an AIL. But way to ignore whatever parts of my post suit you.

Where is Linfield's market then - South Belfast ? :confused:

Why do clubs like Sporting Lisbon, Benfica and Porto have tens of thousands of fans in Madeira - an island hundreds of miles away from mainland Portugal ?

Why are Celtic and Rangers more popular in Inverness than Inverness Caldeonian Thistle are ?

Even now it's possible to find second and third generation fans of LOI clubs who were born and bred in places that, under your rules, their clubs shouldn't consider their 'market'. Back in the early days of City's return to senior football it was possible to find people in places like Dublin with no connection to Derry who would say they'd support or keep an eye out for the club, as they got caught-up in the whole hype and glamour.

A market is wherever a club can get support from. Clubs will obviously have a heartland - which in Bohs' case would be North Dublin - but that isn't an exclusive market. My kids will be City fans, even though it's highly likely they won't be born in Derry.

Do you honestly believe that every one of the 4,000 Steau suppoorters at the RDS last week was from one narrow part of Bucharest ? I'd hazard a guess a decent number of the younger ones weren't even born in Romania.

[pineapple stu]

So you think an AIL will directly cause Bohs fan clubs to spring up in the North? :D

belfastred - Fenlon's comments are here (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2009/0831/fenlonp.html)

[BohDiddley]

So you think an AIL will directly cause Bohs fan clubs to spring up in the North? :D

belfastred - Fenlon's comments are here (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2009/0831/fenlonp.html)
Probably not. But we would be playing bigger clubs who would bring bigger away support than some of the currently marginal Premier Div clubs. And you never know, there might be some Linfield etc. fans living in Dublin. Isn't there a Rangers supporters' club here?

[pineapple stu]

Ah. So now this is about the extra 100 or so fans Cliftonville might bring once - maybe twice - a year over what Bray or Galway bring? So that's what - E2k a year? And this amount will help the league improve how, exactly?

Have you been watching the Setanta Cup at all the last three years?

[BohDiddley]

Have you been watching the Setanta Cup at all the last three years?
I don't think the Setanta Cup is entirely relevant. It has been effectively boycotted by RTE, there have been well-aired problems with fixture schedules, and this year it was uncertain whether it would run and when it did it was with a bizarrely split season and much-reduced prize money. So I wouldn't be holding it up as a model, no.

[belfastred]

Ah. So now this is about the extra 100 or so fans Cliftonville might bring once - maybe twice - a year over what Bray or Galway bring? So that's what - E2k a year? And this amount will help the league improve how, exactly?

Have you been watching the Setanta Cup at all the last three years?


To be fair the Setanta Cup is yet another Cup competition in an already busy season

An AIL would be the main focal point of the season and I'm sure would attract bigger crowds.

[pineapple stu]

I'm sure would attract bigger crowds.
Bigger crowds than the Setanta or bigger crowds than the LoI/IL?

I agree with you on the former, not on the latter.

BD - want to address my point as to how an extra E2k gate receipts a year will help push the league's clubs on in any significant manner?

[Mr A]

An LOI with Linfield and Glentoran in it (because that's what it boils down to) would require the mother of all marketing campaigns to convince people that it was appreciably bigger and better than the current LOI.

The AIL may have an 'unstoppable logic' to it, but one that pales into insignificance with the responsibility to have properly run football clubs. If anything, the impression from many of the comments is that the AIL would be a way of not having to run the clubs properly.

[BohDiddley]

BD - want to address my point as to how an extra E2k gate receipts a year will help push the league's clubs on in any significant manner?
Not really, as I think it's a rather facile observation. I'll take the 2k though as a handy starter bonus, before anything else is achieved, even if it is a deliberately conservative estimate.
Look, Fenlon is saying that people should go into a room, sit down and talk this through. Are you seriously suggesting that someone should go in, say something negative about Cliftonville bringing 100 more fans to a game, and then close the discussion?

[pineapple stu]

A superb example of short-sightedness there BD, indicative of the general P1 AIL camp (as opposed to an AIL in general) thanks for that. When you take off that E2k the extra costs of going to Cliftonville over going to Bray, you're probably at a loss.

I keep repeating this though - I've no problems with an AIL in principle, but the people who are pushing it at present (and in the recent past) are absolutely the wrong people to have running it.

[osarusan]

I keep repeating this though - I've no problems with an AIL in principle, but the people who are pushing it at present (and in the recent past) are absolutely the wrong people to have running it.

I don't think anybody is pushing it at present though, are they?

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, I meant Fenlon (and presumably Bohs, behind the scenes).

Before that, obviously P1 weren't alone in pushing it.

[BohDiddley]

I keep repeating this though - I've no problems with an AIL in principle, but the people who are pushing it at present (and in the recent past) are absolutely the wrong people to have running it.
You say that, but you are going out of your way to select the most negative scenarios, and hunting obstacles that will protect the current setup.
Would it not be fair to say that you are representing the LoI rump -- which I am sure is mirrored in the IL -- that simply doesn't want this to happen because in all likelihood it will impact on their own club?

[pineapple stu]

It would not be fair to say so, as it contradicts directly with the posts I have made many times in this thread, which you continue to ignore.

I don't appreciate you putting words into my mouth either, thanks.

[dcfcsteve]

So you think an AIL will directly cause Bohs fan clubs to spring up in the North? :D

Your smiley face says it all about the seriousness of that riposte.

Conversely - assuming it's run properly (as everyone agrees that there's no point doing an AIL unless it is) do you honestly believe that increased media exposure, TV coverage etc (as that's what would result from a new league done properly) wouldn't add any fans to clubs ? :confused:

Do you honestly think Bohs wouldn't be able to attract any fans in South Dublin, West Dublin, Louth, Meath etc, because they are locked in some sort of supporters 'market' that makes them repellant to securing new support outside of North Dublin (fans of other clubs may agree with that :D) ? There are doubtless Bohs fans on here already who don't live in their North Dublin 'market'.

If you agree that a properly run, well-promoted AIL - again, everyone agrees there'd be no point doing it otherwise - would add at least SOME fans to clubs, then the question is really all about how many, not if. And that's what is moot. How many fields and big animals were first promised to early man if he agreed to migrate from his desert over the big hill into the unknown ? We'll never know. But it was probably all based on a calculation that what lay over the hill was better than what he currently had - even if he couldn't quantify exactly how much better.

[dcfcsteve]

I keep repeating this though - I've no problems with an AIL in principle, but the people who are pushing it at present (and in the recent past) are absolutely the wrong people to have running it.

Who are the right people to run an AIL then ? The two associations on the island, who have sat back for decades whilst their individual leagues declined and failed to intervene in any way ? :confused:

Out of curiousity - now that Jim Roddy is gone, what's your beef with Platinum One ? The Real Madrid game showed that they have a good standing within the game and can deliver an attractive event. I didn't see many other people attempting to coax one of the world's most glamorous clubs to play an LOI side.

[osarusan]

The Real Madrid game showed that they have a good standing within the game and can deliver an attractive event. I didn't see many other people attempting to coax one of the world's most glamorous clubs to play an LOI side.
It was a well-run event no doubt, but Real were already in Ireland and were looking for a game, so the idea that P1 "coaxed" them is wrong.

[passinginterest]

It was a well-run event no doubt, but Real were already in Ireland and were looking for a game, so the idea that P1 "coaxed" them is wrong.

As much as I dislike Platinum One I think you have that a little bit wrong. Platinum One actually organised most of Madrid's pre season programme, including the hotels and training facilities, they stayed in Carton House and came to Ireland solely as a result of Platinum One's input.

I still wouldn't want them running the league though. I find myself agreeing with the Pineapple more than anyone else on this thread.

[pineapple stu]

The one other thing to note is that while P1 deserve fair dues for bringing Madrid to Ireland, once that was done, the event ran itself. Different thing entirely promoting Sligo v Cliftonville.

[BohDiddley]

It would not be fair to say so, as it contradicts directly with the posts I have made many times in this thread, which you continue to ignore.

I don't appreciate you putting words into my mouth either, thanks.

It's consistent with what you've said, other than hollow protestations of being 'for' AIL.

I wonder if any AIL proposal, from any quarter, would meet with your approval. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to the exact circumstances in which that might happen.

[osarusan]

As much as I dislike Platinum One I think you have that a little bit wrong. Platinum One actually organised most of Madrid's pre season programme, including the hotels and training facilities, they stayed in Carton House and came to Ireland solely as a result of Platinum One's input.

If that's true, then my apologies. I thought that P1's involvement only started once the decision had been made to train in Ireland.

[Macy]

Would it not be fair to say that you are representing the LoI rump -- which I am sure is mirrored in the IL -- that simply doesn't want this to happen because in all likelihood it will impact on their own club?
The two main proponents are supporters of clubs with financial issues, so hardly impartial observations either. Was Fenlon just told next seasons budget for him to bring it up again?

[marinobohs]

Yeah, I meant Fenlon (and presumably Bohs, behind the scenes).

Before that, obviously P1 weren't alone in pushing it.

Pat fenlon expressed a view on the matter as an individual (everyone knows here he is never shy about expressing his view :D). he does not speak for Bohs or the clubs view on the AIL (which I hope would be similar) if and when Bohs want a view expressed they will do so, and not "behind the scenes".

It is patently obvious that an AIL would have a higher profile at least initially and could be expected to attract new fans to the games. As I said in another post this could be temporary (novelty factor) and it would be up to the League clubs to sell it, but this is easier to do when you have them in the ground.
Bohs already have supporters outside Phibsboro/ north Dublin so that argument is plain stupid.
It appears your objection to the AIL is predicated on the assumption that UCD would not be invited to participate (at least to the top division).

[osarusan]

It appears your objection to the AIL is predicated on the assumption that UCD would not be invited to participate (at least to the top division).Please point out 1, just 1 quote from a post by Pineapple Stu where he says or implies that.

[Macy]

It appears your objection to the AIL is predicated on the assumption that UCD would not be invited to participate (at least to the top division).
No one should have to be "invited"!!

[marinobohs]

Please point out 1, just 1 quote from a post by Pineapple Stu where he says or implies that.

as pointed out in earlier posts all his contributions on the topic have been negative, I assume* that the issue of UCD participation may be a factor in his line of thinking.i know it would be a major shock for any poster on here to think of their own club when posting :)

* the use of "appears" in the original post

[marinobohs]

No one should have to be "invited"!!

any new League setting up "invites" participants. The criteria the invite is based on is the issue that would need to be clear and transparent and there is no argument from me on the need for that.

[passinginterest]

As far as I can see Stu's arguments are not based on anything to do with where UCD would end up. In likely hood they'd be a second tier team in the beginning much as they are now. In terms of off field criteria they meet all the requirements to participate in any league, they have a decent covered stand and pitch; they keep a tight financial ship. On the field they continue to develop many of the best young players in the league, in all likelihood UCD would eventually find themselves in the top level of an AIL by virtue of their player development and financial prudence. As others have pointed out most of the Northern clubs don't have much bigger fan bases, or better grounds, or more stable finances, eventually the clubs that are run sensibly, assuming licensing rules and the like are followed, will find their place and UCD's is invariably hovering between the premier and first divisions.

[pineapple stu]

I wonder if any AIL proposal, from any quarter, would meet with your approval. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to the exact circumstances in which that might happen.
It's already in the thread, BD. Go back and read it.

marinobohs - as with BohDiddley, I'd have to ask you to stop putting words into my mouth, thanks.

[BohDiddley]

The two main proponents are supporters of clubs with financial issues, so hardly impartial observations either. Was Fenlon just told next seasons budget for him to bring it up again?
All the more reason... lots of clubs have financial issues or are a sponsor away from them.

[BohDiddley]

It's already in the thread, BD. Go back and read it.

Sorry PS -- I don't see any substantive statement from you in favour of AIL other than the statements already cited, which are hollow beside the reams of problem-seeking that you've posted.

[pineapple stu]

You don't see me saying I'm in favour of an AIL?!

I must have said it about three or four times in this thread alone! I've also said what I'd expect from it. I'm not going to hold you by the hand and teach you how to read, FFS. Go off and have another look, and don't bother suggesting I'm avoiding questions I've already answered.

LOL at the notion that problem-seeking is a problem with you - should we just blindly go with the plans instead?

[John83]

Just a side note: an AIL would, if it had the blessings of the FAI and IFA, have half as many European places as currently are in the IL and LoI. This would presumably offset any initial gains.

On to the main issue: every year (hell, several times a year on here), there are proposed changes which will make things better. All the while, as we oscillate wildly between 10 team and 12 team divisions, clubs are going bankrupt or begging their fans and/or creditors for a bailout, players are going unpaid, and the needs of long term development is going unanswered. Sort that **** out, and we might, might, have some chance of convincing the public that a shiny new AIL is the next big sporting bandwagon.

[BohDiddley]

You don't see me saying I'm in favour of an AIL?!
No. That's not what I said, old chum.

[BohDiddley]

LOL at the notion that problem-seeking is a problem with you - should we just blindly go with the plans instead?
No, we should support the proposal to get everyone in a room to discuss it.

[dcfcsteve]

:confused:
It's already in the thread, BD. Go back and read it.

My response to your suggestion of combining the 2 existing leagues and leaving them pretty much as they are is also in the thread, but you've managed to ignore responding to that.

How would you propose combining two leagues with a combined 50 senior teams and then just leaving them as they are ? :confused:

Who do you think should run such a league - the associations who sat back and watched the individual leagues decline ? The league's/clubs who have proven themselves incapable of running anything in the past ?

Why don't you like Platinum 1, now that Jim Roddy is off the scene ?

As for the assertion that your motivation in disliking an AIL is at least partly due to being a UCD supporter, that was clear from previous threads we've had on this over the last 12-18mths. (and no I won't spend a couple of hours of my life trawling back to find them, as you know yourself from recent experience how hard it is to find and post from old threads).

[dcfcsteve]

On to the main issue: every year (hell, several times a year on here), there are proposed changes which will make things better. All the while, as we oscillate wildly between 10 team and 12 team divisions, clubs are going bankrupt or begging their fans and/or creditors for a bailout, players are going unpaid, and the needs of long term development is going unanswered. Sort that **** out, and we might, might, have some chance of convincing the public that a shiny new AIL is the next big sporting bandwagon.

But this actually proves the arguement for an AIL, rather than counter it.

Every year there's tinkering changes to the league. Changes of the sort that will do nothing to improve the appeal of the product. Do you know of anyone who has got into the LOI purely as a result of the drop in Premier division size from 12 to 10 ??? :confused:

Conversely an AIL offers a significant step-change for the league, not just tinkering. Change of the calibre that will get the media interested inseeing how it unfolds. The media didn't give a rat's arse when we reduced the size of the premier division. I have absolutely no dobt that not just media here, but also elsewhere in Euope, nay the world, would have an interest in how our combined leagues fared. Much of that interest may be as much socio-political as footballing. But it's inteesst none the less, which we're starved of in the individual leagues.

[John83]

Sure, we'd get attention. And then Bohs would go bust, and any goodwill we'd accrued would be gone again.

[osarusan]

Conversely an AIL offers a significant step-change for the league, not just tinkering. Change of the calibre that will get the media interested inseeing how it unfolds. The media didn't give a rat's arse when we reduced the size of the premier division. I have absolutely no dobt that not just media here, but also elsewhere in Euope, nay the world, would have an interest in how our combined leagues fared. Much of that interest may be as much socio-political as footballing. But it's inteesst none the less, which we're starved of in the individual leagues.
But it doesn't offer significant change, not without serious work on establishing and correcting the key reasons why domestic football isn't popular on this island. And the work that needs to be done can be done without the advent of an AIL - indeed, as John83 has said, it should be done before we talk about an AIL, so that when an aIL finally does come about, people who are convinced to give it a shot will actually find something to come back for.

Everybody talks about the danger of novelty wearing off, but nobody seems concerned enough to try and stop that happening.

And I'm not so sure that the media, who literally didn't cross the road to cover Bohs or Pats admirable performances in Europe just a couple of weeks ago, are going to show much interest in what is essentially the same quality of product, available in the same venues, just under a different name.