Bohs to go part-time

[irishultra]

This is from a Dave McWilliams article a good few years back now, just before Shelbournes run in Champions League.





There was no advertising of the game, no sponsorship, no clubs, and, more egregiously, the FAI reacted to falling gates by putting its head in the sand and ignoring its own market. Contrast this with what was happening in the face of the similar marketing domination of English clubs, in countries like Norway.

The Norwegians, who had a smaller fan base than us, responded to the blanket coverage of English football by increasing the local interest with advertising campaigns, match-related giveaways and a well-orchestrated marketing campaign in the print, on local radio and on national TV.
Smaller stadia in Oslo were upgraded at a time when the owners of Shamrock Rovers were selling Milltown to property developers. As a result, the Norwegian league has a top side in Rosenborg. It regularly qualifies for the Champions League, reinforcing both the financial and psychological virtuous cycle.

[superfrank]

A few bits on Norwegian football:

Population of Norway: 4.8m

Wikipedia has a list of average attendances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Premier_League#Attendance) for the Tippeligaen over the last twenty years. Unfortunately, there's no source for it so I don't know how reliable it is.

The Tippeligaen had 12 teams who played each other twice between 1985 and 1994 (132 games a season for ten seasons). It went up to 14 teams who played each other twice in 1995 (182 for 14 seasons) and then went to 16 teams who play each other twice for this season (240).

In recent years, the LOI has jumped between 198 games a season and 180. The changes I can remember are this year (12 down to ten) and 2005 (ten up to 12).

The differences in how the league is organised (more teams, less repetitiveness) and how infrequently it's changed could possibly be one part of it's success.

[pete]

I've always said infrastructure is the key. Even if the quality of play is not great comfortable surroundings can make up for it. Bigger crowds make average players play better too. Infrastructure is still terrible in this country & will take decades to improve - mainly I think because so difficult to build anything.

[Dodge]

Mainly because clubs have no money.

A decent stand will now cost €3million to build.

[pete]

Mainly because clubs have no money.

A decent stand will now cost €3million to build.

True but the Drogs stadium was 10m or so on green field site. Across all sports there have few if any greenfield sites. Croke Park & Lansdowne would not have got planning in greenfield site. Somehow planning restrictions (e.g. parking) are very restrictive for stadiums yet huge concerts are allowed in basically the middle of nowhere (Slane) with few restrictions. Not saying concerts should have happen just the different rules.

[blueblood]

The differences in how the league is organised (more teams, less repetitiveness) and how infrequently it's changed could possibly be one part of it's success.[/quote]

Good comparison, plus with less league games per team there wouldn't be any need these stupid midweek games and you would have plenty of time for the FAI Cup and League Cup, who says we should play 30+ league games per year, is it because thats what they do it in England and Scotland? We Irish really have to realise we're not Brittish and stop thring to copy them.

[Steve Bruce]

Mainly because clubs have no money.

A decent stand will now cost €3million to build.

Surely if clubs stopped spunking away more money than they earn on wages and put half the money in a pot some where they would soon have the finances to build stands/infrustucture

[Dodge]

Surely if clubs stopped spunking away more money than they earn on wages and put half the money in a pot some where they would soon have the finances to build stands/infrustucture

Not really. Wages might be high, but the savings on them wouldn't buld a ground...

To be fair to Shels (and regular readers know how much it pains me to ay that...)

They did re-develop Tolka to a point, and certainly at one stage they had transformed the place. Let it slide somewhat but initally they had developped the ground

[Réiteoir]

Only thing with the Tippeligaen - and Norwegian football in general - up until a few years ago (when the TV deal with Canal+ was signed to give the Tippeligaen more coverage) - teams other than Rosenborg (who had the luxury of spending the cash gotten from the Champions League campaigns) had to sell their best players abroad (mostly to England) to survive.

Last season Lyn nearly had their license revoked (which would have meant automatic relegation) thanks to the whole Obi Mikel mess - they only survived thanks to an investor coming in and the banks helping out with loans - in fact, they're having to reduce their loan draw down from the banks by 10% (some €3 million) thanks to the recession.

[John83]

Not really. Wages might be high, but the savings on them wouldn't buld a ground...
I'd settle for reaching the point where the losses on wages wouldn't cost a ground.

[dcfcsteve]

True but the Drogs stadium was 10m or so on green field site. Across all sports there have few if any greenfield sites. Croke Park & Lansdowne would not have got planning in greenfield site. Somehow planning restrictions (e.g. parking) are very restrictive for stadiums yet huge concerts are allowed in basically the middle of nowhere (Slane) with few restrictions. Not saying concerts should have happen just the different rules.


You can't compare a sports stadium - a piece of permanent infrastructure with regular events and therefore a regular impact on traffic etc - with one off events like concerts held very infrequently at already existing pieces of infratsructure (i.e. Slane).

Only one has a planning impact - the other raises licensing/usage questions, but not planning ones. Slane has already been buiilt.

[Ronnie]

Your point appears to be supported by the evidence of Dundalks policy and wage bill this season versus last. With no full timers last year the wage bill was circa €10k, and with almost all of this years squad (admitedly smaller in numbers) full time, the wage bill is quoted at €12.5k.

The point has been made by Directors Kevin Holland and Gerry Matthews that the tax implications of part-timers who have other primary income is such that their tax free allowance is swallowed up, and invitably end up getting pushed into a higher tax bracket - hence the wage costs of part timers are relatively high.

I think you miss the point on this - a player should cost his employer a known amount, whether hes full time or part time, 52 weeks or 40 weeks. The tax the club pays varies depending on the players circumstances. The alternative, a nett contract grossed up, has caused huge finanical issues in our league and is one of the reasons why clubs went full time in the first place, but I can't imagine any club would be paying net contracts nowadays.

[marinobohs]

I've always said infrastructure is the key. Even if the quality of play is not great comfortable surroundings can make up for it. Bigger crowds make average players play better too. Infrastructure is still terrible in this country & will take decades to improve - mainly I think because so difficult to build anything.

if infastructure is the key how come it did'nt work for Shels or Bohs ? Tolka (a few years back) and Dalymount (Jodi stand) are pretty good facilities but did/do not get the crowds.
For years we were told summer football would get the crowds out and this proved to be a myth, I suspect the "build it and they will come" theory to be similar (some small increase but not cost effective).
Fact is that most Irish "supporters" are primarily day trippers and have not got the interest to support a full time League.

[pineapple stu]

The alternative, a nett contract grossed up, has caused huge finanical issues in our league and is one of the reasons why clubs went full time in the first place
This has been discussed several times before, and only stupid clubs would go bust paying nett contracts, because it's very simple maths to work out how much it's going to cost in total. In other words, clubs' stupidity saw them hit money troubles, not paying nett contracts. No surprises there.

Clubs went full-time because it's a natural progression, and because there was the possibility of more money from better European results.

[pete]

if infastructure is the key how come it did'nt work for Shels or Bohs ? Tolka (a few years back) and Dalymount (Jodi stand) are pretty good facilities but did/do not get the crowds.

Tolka is a dump. Dalymount has 1 very good stand but the rest of the ground is derelict.

While I might think Turners Cross is a decent all seater ground in order to attract more casual football supporters we better facilities. Tallaght is a good example but at the moment just one stand. With 2 stands it will start to look like proper stadium.

I am also a firm believer that we need bars in LOI grounds. Alcohol is part of sport in this country.

[Duggie]

i agree with that facilities are the key. if clubs had nice modern stadiums, 7 - 10,000 seater i believe more people would go along. basically at the minute all you have are fields / kips. turners cross is decent in fairness. a lot of it has to do with perception. take croker just for an example. people mightnt be big gaa or soccer fans but will go just to see the place alone. look at united park in drogheda, carlisle grounds its 2009 and we have grounds like these. joke.

looks like winning the league in ireland will make a club go bust.

[pineapple stu]

looks like winning the league in ireland will make a club go bust.
Yup, that's what's making all this happen alright.

[blackholesun]

The key to the Tallaght stadiums success so far is the location, smack bang in the middle of large youngish working class area with excellent transport links.

I am sure other clubs could do just as well with similar facilities in Swords, Blanch or Lucan e.g. Pats, Bohs and Shels are flogging dead horses currently basing themselves in flatland areas in kippy grounds.

bhs

[Ezeikial]

I think you miss the point on this - a player should cost his employer a known amount, whether hes full time or part time, 52 weeks or 40 weeks. The tax the club pays varies depending on the players circumstances. The alternative, a nett contract grossed up, has caused huge finanical issues in our league and is one of the reasons why clubs went full time in the first place, but I can't imagine any club would be paying net contracts nowadays.

With all due respect to you Ronnie, I think that I understood the point Pete made, to which I was responding, that part-time is not the only solution!

Of course the club should know what a player will cost them; the simple point being illustrated is that from the evidence available at Dundalk there does not appear to be a large difference in cost between full-time and part-time gross (real) cost.


I don't think part-time is the only solution as it does not necessarily mean paying lower wages as clubs usually pay a net wage & have the pay the tax on top themselves.



Your point appears to be supported by the evidence of Dundalks policy and wage bill this season versus last. With no full timers last year the wage bill was circa €10k, and with almost all of this years squad (admitedly smaller in numbers) full time, the wage bill is quoted at €12.5k.

The point has been made by Directors Kevin Holland and Gerry Matthews that the tax implications of part-timers who have other primary income is such that their tax free allowance is swallowed up, and invitably end up getting pushed into a higher tax bracket - hence the wage costs of part timers are relatively high.

[rerun]

i agree with that facilities are the key. if clubs had nice modern stadiums, 7 - 10,000 seater i believe more people would go along.

...but not 7 to 10,000 week in week out. The absolute best a LOI team could hope for would be 5 - 6K per week, and that's on the good weeks.

[marinobohs]

Tolka is a dump. Dalymount has 1 very good stand but the rest of the ground is derelict.

While I might think Turners Cross is a decent all seater ground in order to attract more casual football supporters we better facilities. Tallaght is a good example but at the moment just one stand. With 2 stands it will start to look like proper stadium.

I am also a firm believer that we need bars in LOI grounds. Alcohol is part of sport in this country.

I did mention Tolka a couple of years ago BEFORE it was let become run down. Dalyer has one good stand but Tallaght (one stand and nothing else yet) has good facilities ???
Three bars in Dalymount (Jodi stand) two of which are open to fans. Agree RE Turners, Cross decent facilities but again this reconfirms my original point.

[passinginterest]

Tallaght (one stand and nothing else yet)


Not quite true anymore, the first section of the second stand is up now. I see where you're coming from overall though.

Dalymount still has great potential, although the Jodi probably needs an overhall at this stage along with the rest of the ground. At this stage I think Bohs have to accept Harristown is not going to happen and start looking at ways to keep the club in business and develop a tidy, modern Dalymount.

[placid casual]

At this stage I think Bohs have to accept Harristown is not going to happen and start looking at ways to keep the club in business and develop a tidy, modern Dalymount.

:p:D:p

[Dodge]

Dalymount still has great potential, although the Jodi probably needs an overhall at this stage along with the rest of the ground. At this stage I think Bohs have to accept Harristown is not going to happen and start looking at ways to keep the club in business and develop a tidy, modern Dalymount.

Presumably they still have the few million non-refunadable deposit to build with.

Oh, I see...

[Duggie]

Bohs have to accept Harristown is not going to happen and start looking at ways to keep the club in business and develop a tidy, modern Dalymount.

knock 3 sides of it

[marinobohs]

Presumably they still have the few million non-refunadable deposit to build with.

Oh, I see...

probobly enough to bring Dalymount up to the "stadium of light" standards (about 50 euro required)

[Dodge]

Except you don't have it.

So there's very little point in getting in a ****ing contest over finances...

[John83]

probobly enough to bring Dalymount up to the "stadium of light" standards (about 50 euro required)
Well, that just leaves ye a few million short.

[marinobohs]

Except you don't have it.

So there's very little point in getting in a ****ing contest over finances...

Just a contest about facilities (isnt that what thread was about ?) Dalymount V stadium of Light ? or is it only OK for you to comment on Dalymount ?

[marinobohs]

Except you don't have it.

So there's very little point in getting in a ****ing contest over finances...

as you mentioned finances I was surprised you did'nt publish Pats accounts on Foot.ie. I recall how much fun you get from these (and boy do Pats make funny reading):D

[Dodge]

Just a contest about facilities (isnt that what thread was about ?) Dalymount V stadium of Light ? or is it only OK for you to comment on Dalymount ?

So you think a thread entitled "Bohs to go part time" is about facilities?

Regardless, if you're happy with the current state of your finances, ground and the direction your team and club is heading, then who am I to point out the error in your ways.

As for Pats accounts; they're in a hell of a lot better shape than they were a year ago. I'm not comfortable yet, but then I'm not here trying to defend the club's action over the last number of years either

[marinobohs]

Regardless, if you're happy with the current state of your finances, ground and the direction your team and club is heading, then who am I to point out the error in your ways.

As for Pats accounts; they're in a hell of a lot better shape than they were a year ago. I'm not comfortable yet, but then I'm not here trying to defend the club's action over the last number of years either

far from happy with Bohs financial position as I have said ad nauseam (but hey, don't let the facts stop you).
Obviously easier for you to smirk at bohs financial position than address Pats. Has failure ever cost so much ?

[Dodge]

Has failure ever cost so much ?

Plenty of clubs have died failing

[marinobohs]

Plenty of clubs have died failing

but at least they enjoyed winning before hand !

[Dodge]

Unlike Bohs then who win a double and still can't stop moaning...

;)

[Ezeikial]

Unlike Bohs then who win a double and still can't stop moaning...

;)

If more Bohs fans/members had done sufficient "moaning" within the club over the last few years, perhaps they wouldn't be in the financial mess that they currently face.

Am I alone in the thought that Bohemian F.C. and their supporters have not yet fully accepted that First Division football is a real possibility next season?

[brianw82]

So...........

are Bohs going part-time or not?

[superfrank]

Am I alone in the thought that Bohemian F.C. and their supporters have not yet fully accepted that First Division football is a real possibility next season?
Well, Cork and Drogs didn't go down last year so maybe they're thinking that the FAI will help them out in some way.

[John83]

So...........

are Bohs going part-time or not?
Unconfirmed but plausible rumour.

[Mr A]

The only concrete news so far is that Bohs are recalling a few players from loan.. so that would actually increase their outgoings!

[Martinho II]

The only concrete news so far is that Bohs are recalling a few players from loan.. so that would actually increase their outgoings!


from what I heard Brian McCarthy is heading back to them from us.

[SkStu]

from what I heard Brian McCarthy is heading back to them from us.

Martinho, Fenlon stated today that Madden would be back but that they had agreed to extend McCarthy's loan with Longford.

http://www.herald.ie/sport/soccer/fenlon-in-dark-over-whether-carey-will-stay-1799773.html


Wednesday July 01 2009

BOHEMIANS boss Pat Fenlon says he's in the dark over the future plans of on-loan player Graham Carey.

The Dubliner has been in impressive form since he joined Bohs on loan from Celtic at the start of the season, scoring four goals. But Carey's loan spell with Bohs ends next weekend, after Friday's league game away to Bray Wanderers, and Fenlon is uncertain if he'll have Carey on board for the rest of the season, especially for the Champions League programme, which starts next month.

"It's in Graham's hands and Celtic's hands. There's not much we can do about the situation," said Fenlon. "Celtic have offered him a new contract and he is speaking to them at the moment. But I'm not sure if he is going to sign that contract or look to move on.

"We are happy with how he has done, but it's not our call. It's up to Graham and Celtic to decide what they want to do."

Meanwhile, striker Paddy Madden has returned to Bohs after a spell on loan with Shelbourne, where the U19 cap scored eight goals, while Fenlon has allowed Brian McCarthy to extend his loan spell at Longford Town until the end of the season.

[RonnieB]

Great news. Brian has been excellent for Longford this season.

[brianw82]

Martinho, Fenlon stated today that Madden would be back but that they had agreed to extend McCarthy's loan with Longford.

http://www.herald.ie/sport/soccer/fenlon-in-dark-over-whether-carey-will-stay-1799773.html


Wednesday July 01 2009

BOHEMIANS boss Pat Fenlon says he's in the dark over the future plans of on-loan player Graham Carey.

The Dubliner has been in impressive form since he joined Bohs on loan from Celtic at the start of the season, scoring four goals. But Carey's loan spell with Bohs ends next weekend, after Friday's league game away to Bray Wanderers, and Fenlon is uncertain if he'll have Carey on board for the rest of the season, especially for the Champions League programme, which starts next month.

"It's in Graham's hands and Celtic's hands. There's not much we can do about the situation," said Fenlon. "Celtic have offered him a new contract and he is speaking to them at the moment. But I'm not sure if he is going to sign that contract or look to move on.

"We are happy with how he has done, but it's not our call. It's up to Graham and Celtic to decide what they want to do."

Meanwhile, striker Paddy Madden has returned to Bohs after a spell on loan with Shelbourne, where the U19 cap scored eight goals, while Fenlon has allowed Brian McCarthy to extend his loan spell at Longford Town until the end of the season.

Makes sense, given their finances, to let Carey leave and sign Madden on lesser wages. His loan is up so it's probably the easiest thing to do.

[marinobohs]

If more Bohs fans/members had done sufficient "moaning" within the club over the last few years, perhaps they wouldn't be in the financial mess that they currently face.

Am I alone in the thought that Bohemian F.C. and their supporters have not yet fully accepted that First Division football is a real possibility next season?

damned if you moan damned if you do'nt :) gotta love the consistency ! unfortunately most Bohs members ARE aware of the rules and the implications if we break them (cant /wont speak for Bohs board). To be honest given the current state of flux in the League I have no idea what will happen at the end of the season, SETANTA Cup, Europe, transfers etc all could change the picture. Suffice to say nobody I know at the club is happy at where we are and can only hope we are still in Prem next season (a bit like Dundalk).

[Ezeikial]

Irish Indo article today


http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/fenlons-fulltime-pledge-for-bohs-fans-1896455.html


By Neil Ahern


Friday September 25 2009


PAT Fenlon has insisted that his Bohemians side will retain a full-time professional set-up next season, despite the fact that the club is currently operating over the 65pc salary cap and has debts of more than €4.4m.
The Gypsies' boss also expressed confidence that he can hold on to the nucleus of his current squad, which is this season operating under a projected budget of roughly €1.6m.
Concerns had been raised at a Bohemians members' meeting in July that the club would almost certainly have to return to part-time football next season, after they were told by Finance Director Chris Brien that they had accumulated debts of over €4.4m.
Indeed, a significant fundraising push has taken place at the Dalymount Park club in recent months in order to help keep the club from breaking the FAI's Salary Cost Protocol, which would result in relegation and the relinquishing of any trophies.
Fenlon allayed fears yesterday when he was asked if he knew how much money he will be able to spend for the 2010 season.
"The budget is between me and the club to be honest and I'm not going to discuss it, but I do know what the budget is.
"As far as I'm concerned, in the current climate, it's a decent enough budget to work with, so I just have to get on with it."
The 40-year-old then confirmed that the club will be working on a full-time professional basis and said he hoped to hold on to many of the players whose contracts expire at the end of this season.
"We'll do our best to hold on to them all -- the ones that I want to hold on to. It's like most seasons, you want to hold on to players, but you lose some that you want and that's just the way that it works.
"We want to try and hold on to them all, we've got a decent squad there and we need to strengthen it in certain areas.
"About five or six (of the current squad) I think are contracted at the moment," he continued.
Bohemians General Secretary Gerry Conway also confirmed the 2008 double-winners are to remain full-time and dismissed suggestions of any immediate fears over either the Salary Cost Protocol or the club's debts.
explained
"We have explained to the FAI our plans to be under the 65pc by November 30, which is when it counts, and I believe they are fully satisfied with our plans.
"We do have longer-term financial issues, but we have plans in place to repay them, which we will explain to the members at our next information meeting.
"We're satisfied as a board that we have budgeted prudently so as to sustain full-time football and give Pat a budget, which, while he may not be 100pc happy with it, is one that can help him challenge for honours next season."
- Neil Ahern

[Steodonn]

How we are coming up with the money I have no idea

[RoversHead]

Are Bohs going part time?They have no choice simple as.Home gates less than 1500 and lower sometimes ,large outstanding debt to be serviced and likely court costs against them following upcoming appeal.With no more developers to sell bits of dalymount too on the never never they cant afford full time football .

[kdjaC]

How we are coming up with the money I have no idea

If they outlive danninger by 6 or so months then that debt is gone.

So only debt would be to the banks, which in the current NAMA climate will not go chasing it.

[sonofstan]

Are Bohs going part time?They have no choice simple as.Home gates less than 1500 and lower sometimes .


PREMIER DIVISION
Bohs - 2,511 (2008 - 1,993; 2007 - 1,924; 2006 - 1,463; 2005 - 1,976; 2004 - 2,340) (missing Derry 2, Dundalk 2, Galway and Pat's)
Bray - 1,235 (1,106; 1,200; 1,027; 1,550; 818 FD)
Cork - 2,977 (3,142; 2,897; 2,941; 3,644; 4,033)
Derry - 2,520 (3,363; 2,614; 3,229; 2,698; 1,672)
Drogheda - 1,121 (1,631; 1,919; 1,751; 1,682; 1,554) (missing Cork 2 and Derry 2)
Dundalk - 2,456 (1,459 FD; 1,406 FD; 1,078 FD; 474 FD; 591 FD)
Galway - 1,029 (1,393; 2,199; 1,148 FD; 566 FD; 571 FD)
Pat's - 1,662 (1,795; 1,910; 1,342; 1,599; 1,882) (missing Bohs 2)
Rovers - 3,306 (1,468; 1,715; 1,089 FD; 1,539; 1,349) (missing Bray 2)
Sligo - 1,664 (1,960; 1,448; 1,806; 1,794 FD; 781 FD)

Still think we'll be largely part-time next year.