Hibernian FC and there place in Irish History

[SlovSam]

Hello to you all/

I read with great interest the mammoth pro Celtic/anti Celtic thread and couldn't help but notice how my own team Hibernian FC seemed to come up in the discussion, sometimes accurately and sometimes not.

Hence as my team and one of our early supporters played a significant role in Irish History, I thought I would give you a potted history of Hibs involvement and try to clear up some misconceptions and inaccuracies.
As I am Scottish, with no family or cultural ties whatsoever to Ireland in the slightest, then please forgive me if I misrepresent any of the history of your country.


As is commonly known, Hibernian FC, were formed in the Grassmarket area of Edinburgh by Canon Joseph Hanon and Michael Whelehan both native Irishmen in 1875 (Interestingly 13 years before Celtic, who were formed in 1888).
The club was run by the Catholic Young Mens Association (CYMS) as an amateur football club where all money generated would be distributed as 'poor relief' to 'Irish community' of the Grassmarket area of the city.

Hibs originally played in green and white with 'Erin go Bragh' as a small logo on the jerseys.
Interestingly, Hibs also played in green and white hoops for a while, so next time you see a Celtic fan in your town, then tell him that they are in fact, the 'second team to wear the famous hoops':D

The common misconception is that 'Celtic were then formed in 1888' based roughly on the Hibs model and they stole all Hibs players by bribing them to play for Celtic and the original Hibs club went bankrupt in 1891 only to be reformed in 1893
This is only partly true ,as the Hibs secretary had absconded to Canada with all the club's funds, hence Hibs had no money for 'poor relief', 'players expenses' or 'under the counter payments'.
I am not as naive,as to think that Celtic,were the only club making dodgy payments to players in these so called amateur days.

However, it may interest some of you to know that there was an Irish political angle to the demise of the first Hibs club.
During the Irish Home Rule campaign of 1890, many of the Hibs players and officials took part in political meetings,protest's and boycotts in favour of Irish Home rule.

However, this brought them into conflict with Canon Hanon and the church who feared violence and the club was split right down the middle with many committee members being forced to resign.
Hence with no money, few committee members, conflict with the church and a split club then it isn't quite fair for Hibs fans just to blame it all on Celtic.
Though we all still do anyway.:D


Another political/historical connection between Hibs and Ireland concerns arguably, Hibs most famous supporter 'James Connolly'.
James Connolly had been born in the Cowgate area of Edinburgh and was a Hibs ballboy and regular attender in the early years, a plaque now stands to him in Edinburgh only a bye kick from the church hall where Hibernian FC had been founded.

James Connolly, I believe, played an active role in the Easter rising in Dublin in 1916 as well as being a prominent Irish trade unionist and was one of the 12(sorry, not sure) original signatories to the 'Irish Declaration of Independance of 1916' before being shot in Kilmannion jail by the British authorities after the 1916 uprising.:(


As the decades went by, understandbly Hibs began to lose much of there Irish roots as the Irish community became fully integrated into Edinburgh society and culture and there are many other myths that should be squashed some other time, such as the complete Celtic inspired nonsense, about our chairman Harry Swan in the 1950's.

In modern times, I think we are very fortunate that our rivalry with Hearts is nothing remotely like Celtic/Rangers.
With the exception of the odd tri-colour or Union Flag, our hard fought derby matches are completely free of the sectarian nonsense found in Glasgow.

I think it would be safe to say that the vast majority of both Hibs and Hearts supporters, dislike or even despise both Rangers and Celtic for there arrogance, bigotry and bullying contempt they have for the other Scottish clubs.

Despite being a great football fan, to my shame I have never been to a LOI match but reading all your posts, I feel there is great empathy between the smaller Scottish clubs and your own teams and I fully sympathise with the problem of 'Celtic fans' who are unwiling to support there local side.

Good luck to all your teams in 2004

[Mukadua]

Sam has hit it very much on the head with his potted history of the Hibs. I do have a significant Irish strain in my family, but consider myself a Scot and proud of it.

Many Hibernian fans still feel a distant link with the old country, but like any fifth/ sixth generation group, its a historical thing.

One wee correction to our Slovenian Hibby's story is the fact that Hibernian were in fact formed in Little Ireland or the Cowgate as it is now and prior to Irish Immigration, was known, not the Grassmarket.

I speak as the man who spent ten's of thousands of pounds belonging to a large Edinburgh Assurance Company refurbishing St Mary's Hall (original Home of Hibernian and the CYMS) in the early 1990's.

Hibernian, First to wear the Green:D

[gspain]

You forgot one vital piece of information Canon Hanon was a Limerickman. :)

[SlovSam]

My fellow Hibs fan is of course quite correct though in my defence the distance between the Cowgate area of Edinburgh and the Grassmarket area of Edinburgh is around 200 yards.;)

[Mukadua]

At its nearest point my friend:D

Good stuff though Sam.

[Rebel Bhoy]

Lots of what you say is true, but many Hibs supporters view history with a dewy eyed nostalgia that never was. Its as though Celtic FC are just a bunch of ‘blow ins’ who copied Hibs every move and struck gold. That simply isn’t the case. Hibernian may well have been the first ‘Irish club’ but that doesn’t change the fact that Hibs, along with Dundee Hibernians (now Dundee Utd) left that all behind them when it was expedient for them to do so. Celtic was the only football club to make a stand at the racist and sectarian policies of the SFA and, seemingly, amongst the support that remains the case to this day.
Hibs can be regarded as the first Sectarian football club in Scotland. Even prior to the Forces of Darkness. They operated a Catholics only policy which lasted for the first 17 years of the football club and was only abandoned when the club nearly went to the wall.
In order to increase popular appeal Harry Swan, then Chairman, began to reduce the Irish Catholic influence at the club. Swan was the first Protestant to hold shares in the club and it was he who introduced measures to ensure a reduction in the number of Catholics attending games. Swan supported the SFA when they campaigned to have the tricolour removed from Celtic Park. It was also Swan who removed the Harp at the entrance to Easter Road. Swan was alleged to be the founder of "Protestant Action" which was an anti-Catholic, which at that time generally meant anti-Irish, organisation who picketed Edinburgh workplaces who employed Catholics.

Like I say, Hibernian may have been the first Irish club in Scotland, but the Irish influence didn’t just diminish “as the decades went by”, it was completely written off, and very quickly at that. The people in Ireland who say that they have more time for Hibs as the ‘first’ Irish club don’t know about this bit of history and its very tidily covered up with neat potted history’s of a club like yours SlovSam. I’d take Hibs over the Huns or the mini-huns any day but it makes me very uncomfortable that a club with a racist and sectarian history can point the finger so easily and so misguidedly at a club like mine that has never operated in the same manner.

Sure you can despise Celtic for taking a bigger piece of the pie, but lets face it, The paydays you get against us and ‘them’ help to keep Scottish football alive. Perhaps we do bully the smaller boys around a bit, but we know what that feels like too. You just have to take a look at the recent ‘Millergate’ scenario. That’s the nature of the beast.

[SlovSam]

Oh dear, with the greatest respect, what a load of rubbish;) but more later this evening when I have more time.:)

[Rebel Bhoy]

With the greatest of respect, I haven't told any lies.

[nooshty]

>>> Swan was the first Protestant to hold shares in the club and it was he who introduced measures to ensure a reduction in the number of Catholics attending games.<<<<<

There's a couple there for a start, RB. Tell me where did you get this info from ?

A member of the Usher Brewery family was the first Protestant to own shares in Hibernian in the late 19th Century, long before Mr Swan was involved.

I'd be interested to know exactly what measures Swan took to "ensure a reduction in the number of Catholics attending games", as well.

The first football Chairman to try and stop supporters giving his club money? Again with all due respect sounds very weird, if not made-up i.e. fictional not to say factional.

See this part

"Swan was alleged to be the founder of "Protestant Action" which was an anti-Catholic, which at that time generally meant anti-Irish, organisation who picketed Edinburgh workplaces who employed Catholics. "

Alleged by?

I've seen those allegations recently, they were made (up) by a Celtic fan spreading his "opinion" on Swan around message boards. Subsequently a search was made to find out who exactly was the foudning the members of the odorous PA, John Cormack (the real founder and leader) was the only male, the other founding members being busy-body elderly Edinburgh Matrons with more money than human decency.

As Sam says there is a load of rubbish written up there, expecially the stuff on Swan, and particularly all the rest of what you wrote. I'm sure Sam, will explain further.

[Rebel Bhoy]

A lot of the information I got actually comes from a Hearts website taking a serious look at sectarianism in Scottish football. Admittedly I was playing devils advocate a little….maybe a lot, as I don’t believe that Hibs exclusively Catholic team was in any way indicative of sectarianism, rather a protective mechanism of their Irish heritage against the overtly anti-Catholic SFA and Edinburgh FA at the time but that doesn’t stop the allegations to the contrary.

I am also aware of Hibernian refuting the allegations over Swan. I have heard it said (I think on a Hibs website??) that the Harp crest was removed because of essential building works at Easter Road but that doesn’t change the fact that it was Swan who got rid of it. With regards to Swan being the founder of Protestant action that was alleged by Andrew Sanders but I have to admit that I haven’t seen these claims substantiated anywhere else. Swan was certainly a mason though, so I would guess that this is where the story comes from.

With regards to the measures Swan took to ensure a reduction in the number of Catholics attending games was to not allow Catholic clergymen to enter the ground for free as they had always done in the past. I accept that in modern times this would be viewed as only right and proper but back then, this was something of an issue as it discouraged attendance by other Irish Catholics. As for his attitude towards the tricolour at Parkhead….well, that is very well documented

Like I said. I didn’t lie anywhere. I may have pushed the truth in order to make the point that Hibs are not as pure and free from religious and political machinations as they would often have us believe.

[nooshty]

Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy
A lot of the information I got actually comes from a Hearts website taking a serious look at sectarianism in Scottish football. Admittedly I was playing devils advocate a little….maybe a lot, as I don’t believe that Hibs exclusively Catholic team was in any way indicative of sectarianism, rather a protective mechanism of their Irish heritage against the overtly anti-Catholic SFA and Edinburgh FA at the time but that doesn’t stop the allegations to the contrary.
Hibs were the Catholic Young Men's Society's team, you had to be a member of the CYMS to play for Hibs. This is in line with the way many teams were formed in the Amateur era, church teams, dancehall teams, Works teams - there was nothing sectarian or exclusive about the formation of Hibernian. The founders were young guys who wanted to play football while representing their community, just like every club formed at that time. Once professional everyone could join.

I am also aware of Hibernian refuting the allegations over Swan. I have heard it said (I think on a Hibs website??) that the Harp crest was removed because of essential building works at Easter Road but that doesn’t change the fact that it was Swan who got rid of it.
Many Celtic fans wish to interpret that as though Swan "got rid of the Harp" as soon as he was made Chairman. In fact the building work took place some 20 years after Swan became owner of the club . It was as you say "removed because of essential building works", something which you chose not mention in your first post.

Why would you wish to give such an impression, devils advocacy aside?

Just as a bit of balance the first thing Swan did do when taking over Hibernian was to introduce Green nets for the goals.


With regards to Swan being the founder of Protestant action that was alleged by Andrew Sanders but I have to admit that I haven’t seen these claims substantiated anywhere else.

So it's a lie to say that Swan was a member of PA never mind a "founding" member of P.A.? Again given the shaky nature of your info, why would you wish to give this impression?


Swan was certainly a mason though, so I would guess that this is where the story comes from.

?. I fail to see the connection.


With regards to the measures Swan took to ensure a reduction in the number of Catholics attending games was to not allow Catholic clergymen to enter the ground for free as they had always done in the past. I accept that in modern times this would be viewed as only right and proper but back then, this was something of an issue as it discouraged attendance by other Irish Catholics.

I started going to ER around 1968, and vividly remember clergymen sitting at the front of the Old stand at Easter Road. Maybe they paid their way in but they seemed to enjoy the games and cheered whenever Hibs scored. Also crowds at Easter Road increased hugely while Swan was owner. Where did you get the info about Swan's decision "not allow Catholic clergymen to enter the ground for free", for that matter where did you get the info that they "had always done in the past", in all honesty it sounds like more rubbish.


As for his attitude towards the tricolour at Parkhead….well, that is very well documented

...and very poorly documented at that.

Briefly that episode in Celtic's history goes something like this. Late 1951 crowd trouble at Parkhead saw a linesman attacked and the SFA put posters up around Parkhead asking fans to behave. In the 1952 New Years Day game Rangers won 1-4, and bottles and stones were thrown by Celtic fans after the fourth goal went in. After this Glasgow Magistrates asked that...

(1) Rangers and Celtic should not play each other on New Years Day
(2) All ticket games only
(3) Numbered passgeways at Celtic Park
(4) That the two clubs should avoid displaying flags which might incite feeling among the spectators

...I'll point out at this time Harry Swan was not a Glasgow Magistrate. The Magistrate's decisions were ratified by the SFA's Referee's Committee (the Chairman of which at the time was Celtic Chairman Robert Kelly), then it was put before the SFA council who ratified those requests. Harry Swan is not even mentioned so far, and it's worth pointing out that both Rangers and Celtic were asked to "avoid displaying flags which might incite feeling among the spectators", and on match days only. During the week they could fly Auntie Aggie's drawers if they wished.

The only part Harry Swan played was while he was acting Chairman of the SFA Council during a meeting when Celtic were disciplined for not obeying the Glasgow Magistrates requests.

Celtic fans have subsequently twisted this story to portray it as some kind of witch-hunt initiated by Swan, when, given the facts it's obvious where the hissy-fit hysteria is coming from, and I'll give you clue - it's not Swan.

I'll warrant that Swan's attitude is well documented, but it's fabricated repetition by paranoics who are repeating paranoic stories which they are just gagging to believe.

Well documented fabricated repetition does not make it a fact.

So therefore what you repeated above from very dodgy sources is lies.


Like I said. I didn’t lie anywhere. I may have pushed the truth in order to make the point that Hibs are not as pure and free from religious and political machinations as they would often have us believe.
Whereas repeating and propagating lies about a football club which you seem eager to believe has some kind of Anti-Catholic
background seems to be more than "pushing the truth".

[SlovSam]

Well that saves me a lot of effort;) .

The other point I would add is that Tom Gallgher's book 'No Popery, Edinburgh divided', list's the founders of Protestant Action as Mrs I Johnson, Mrs Etta Cunningham, Miss Dolly Barbour and the notorious John Cormack.

This I would contend is a far more authoritive source of reference than errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr a 'Hearts web site':) .

As a bit of background to any Irish readers, 'Protestant Action' was a nasty little political party set up in Edinburgh in January 1933 with the aims or repatriation for Irish immigrants and discrimination.
At most, it won 2/3 local council seats and by 1937 was a spent and discredited organisation.

Interestingly Harry Swan, the Hibs chairman, made his first bid to takeover the club at around the same time, where according to Hibs historians, he was welcolmed with 'open arms' by the auld catholic families' that still controlled Hibs at his time.
Families who in fact lived in Ireland rather than Scotland.

I can just picture the surreal meeting in the Hibs boardroom:;)

Well, Mr Swan,
'What qualities can you bring to the famous old Hibernians'

Replies Mr Swan,
'I haven't got a lot of times on my hands as I have just set up the Protestant Action Party... you know the one, the one that hates the papish scum and wants to deport them all back to Ireland.

'Excellent Mr Swan you can take over the club tomorrow'

Somewhat inconceivable, I hope you would agree:D

The sum total of your allegation, now seems to be that Harry Swan was a mason and he knocked down a wall that was falling down anyway.
Both points I happily concede but would contend that this doesn't make him some 'henious anti Irish bigot'.


I would also concede that all football fans are guilty of 'dewy eyed nostalgia' concerning there team and Celtic fans are of course no different in this respect.

The football team, Brother Walfrid set up in the East End of Glasgow to feed the 'hungry poor' was quickly taken over by John Glass, owner of a lucrative group of building companies and turned into a professional money making limited company, a million miles away from Brother Walfrids noble intentions.

It is however 'dear old Brother Walfrid' who is rightly honoured at Celtic Park but there is no mention whatsoever of John Glass who has been eradicated from Celtic's history;)

[harpo]

Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy

With regards to the measures Swan took to ensure a reduction in the number of Catholics attending games was to not allow Catholic clergymen to enter the ground for free as they had always done in the past. I accept that in modern times this would be viewed as only right and proper but back then, this was something of an issue as it discouraged attendance by other Irish Catholics. As for his attitude towards the tricolour at Parkhead….well, that is very well documented

Like I said. I didn’t lie anywhere. I may have pushed the truth in order to make the point that Hibs are not as pure and free from religious and political machinations as they would often have us believe.


This is another Swan Myth, the Priests had seats in the centre Stand reserved for them, infact the rows of black-suited Priests were known as 'The Black Watch'. However with huge demand for season tickets in the Centre Stand, Harry Swan could no longer reserve seats for the Priests but they still recieved complimentary admission to the stand

Rebel Bhoy, Harry Swan was not anti-Catholic, infact a close friend of his was Hibs daft Monsignor Thomas Miley and when Swan became Hibernian Chairman he appointed Monsignor Miley the players counsellor, the first of it's kind in British football. When Monsignor Miley Died Harry Swan wrote in the Hibs match day programme.......... 'it is with deep regret theat we learned the death of Mosignor Thomas Miley, a good and true Hibernian. He was a most ardent supporter and cheery soul, and an inspiration to all at Easter Road with his kindly encouragement. We mourn the passing of a real friend'.

I use to believe the myths about Swan but when you look into it all you find is Celtic propoganda!
__________________

[Mukadua]

Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy
Lots of what you say is true, but many Hibs supporters view history with a dewy eyed nostalgia that never was. Its as though Celtic FC are just a bunch of ‘blow ins’ who copied Hibs every move and struck gold. That simply isn’t the case. Hibernian may well have been the first ‘Irish club’ but that doesn’t change the fact that Hibs, along with Dundee Hibernians (now Dundee Utd) left that all behind them when it was expedient for them to do so. Celtic was the only football club to make a stand at the racist and sectarian policies of the SFA and, seemingly, amongst the support that remains the case to this day.
Hibs can be regarded as the first Sectarian football club in Scotland. Even prior to the Forces of Darkness. They operated a Catholics only policy which lasted for the first 17 years of the football club and was only abandoned when the club nearly went to the wall.
In order to increase popular appeal Harry Swan, then Chairman, began to reduce the Irish Catholic influence at the club. Swan was the first Protestant to hold shares in the club and it was he who introduced measures to ensure a reduction in the number of Catholics attending games. Swan supported the SFA when they campaigned to have the tricolour removed from Celtic Park. It was also Swan who removed the Harp at the entrance to Easter Road. Swan was alleged to be the founder of "Protestant Action" which was an anti-Catholic, which at that time generally meant anti-Irish, organisation who picketed Edinburgh workplaces who employed Catholics.

Like I say, Hibernian may have been the first Irish club in Scotland, but the Irish influence didn’t just diminish “as the decades went by”, it was completely written off, and very quickly at that. The people in Ireland who say that they have more time for Hibs as the ‘first’ Irish club don’t know about this bit of history and its very tidily covered up with neat potted history’s of a club like yours SlovSam. I’d take Hibs over the Huns or the mini-huns any day but it makes me very uncomfortable that a club with a racist and sectarian history can point the finger so easily and so misguidedly at a club like mine that has never operated in the same manner.

Sure you can despise Celtic for taking a bigger piece of the pie, but lets face it, The paydays you get against us and ‘them’ help to keep Scottish football alive. Perhaps we do bully the smaller boys around a bit, but we know what that feels like too. You just have to take a look at the recent ‘Millergate’ scenario. That’s the nature of the beast.

What a load of ill reseached, madey up 'Celtic history as we want it ****e'.

Explain your Sectarian comment about my clubs forefathers. Have you read and understood the bigotry of Edinburgh and Scotland in 1875??

Give us some facts about the removal of the harp, and what actually happened when it was taken down, where it went and what the club have done since??

'Protestant action' - Any fact at all showing Swan to have any link to that bile.

Tell me your understanding of Mr Swan's position when the tricolour carry on was occuring. I am genuinely interested. You obviously have the answers.

Paydays -Well I always knew the Huns and you were one and the same despite your claims of independence, republicanism, socialism, nationalism and fair play.

Do not confuse the club with the fans of that club. A more left wing, Scots nationalist, liberal minded club support you will not find in my country (Scotland) and I include Celtic.


1875, 13 years before and 128 years later, still having to dispel the rumours concocted by the 'greatest fans on earth*'.













* My crinkled star

[Rebel Bhoy]

Fair play to you all. I am big enough to admit when I am wrong. I started off being a bit cheeky, but quickly found myself having to defend a position that I never really believed in the first place....but I gave it a go.
As for a liberal minded football club….In terms of the support, I’d say you’d be hard pressed to match Celtic, But the Connolly society in Edinburgh gives a whole lot of credence to that statement.
HONESTLY NOW, with no bull****, I would say that Hibs contribution to the Irish community in Scotland has been a great one. The difference between us is that we nurtured the link whilst Hibs assimilated (a bit of a paradox considering the meaning in the names of our clubs).

[SlovSam]

It takes a big man to admit he might have been wrong, so very good for you and cheers for the chat but can we have our players back please;)

If you come across any more Celtic fans with similar opinions direct then in this direction for further discussion

http://www.hibeesbounce.com/forum/showthread.php?p=97609#post97609.

[Rebel Bhoy]

Will do SlovSam. But there is no "might" about it. I was wrong.
As for giving the players back......not a hope!!

[Mukadua]

Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy
Fair play to you all. I am big enough to admit when I am wrong. I started off being a bit cheeky, but quickly found myself having to defend a position that I never really believed in the first place....but I gave it a go.
As for a liberal minded football club….In terms of the support, I’d say you’d be hard pressed to match Celtic, But the Connolly society in Edinburgh gives a whole lot of credence to that statement.
HONESTLY NOW, with no bull****, I would say that Hibs contribution to the Irish community in Scotland has been a great one. The difference between us is that we nurtured the link whilst Hibs assimilated (a bit of a paradox considering the meaning in the names of our clubs).

Fair play to the Rebel Bhoy, if only a few more of your 'celtic minded' compatriots were willing to accept the real facts about our clubs.

Interesting point about assimilation of the Edinburgh Irish. I think Edinburgh society seems to have slowly accepted the Irish and with lower numbers than the 'weejie' Irish, inter marraige was more common, leading us to assimilate faster.

Just my view of it right enough.

[Plastic Paddy]

Originally posted by SlovSam
can we have our players back please;)


Not a chance. And you'd better get Doumbe signed up quick, or he'll be next down the M8... ;)


Originally posted by Mukadua
Fair play to the Rebel Bhoy, if only a few more of your 'celtic minded' compatriots were willing to accept the real facts about our clubs.

There's none so blind as those that refuse to see. And I speak as a Celtic fan.

:D PP

[Mukadua]

Originally posted by Plastic Paddy
Not a chance. And you'd better get Doumbe signed up quick, or he'll be next down the M8... ;)



There's none so blind as those that refuse to see. And I speak as a Celtic fan.

:D PP

Doumbe is pish, can't speak English and likes Rangers. I suggest the Jumping Leprehaun looks at the excellent Colin Murdock.











(Ooop, ma pant are on fire);)

[Mukadua]

Originally posted by Guerzy
This is the most constructive debate i ve seen in ages. Well done to our Scottish friends. i 'm still a Celtic supporter but its nice to get some good background history. Gary and Colm dont get too excited and lets keep this constructive. Tell me , do Hibs have potential fan wise in Edinburgh to maybe move on another level financially speaking. And is the policy of signing unknown foreigners and turning them into decent players still active at the club.

We have a massive dormant support,sadly dormant being the operative word. Crowds are dwindling due to the poor footballing spectacle, dislike of the manager and his tactics in some elements of the support and a general malaise that is affecting all of Scottish Football, due in part to the domination of the Infirm and the excessive live TV matches shown on terrestrial and satelite(usually on or both of Rantic/ Celgers playing away from home).

Our policy has changed sluightly, most of our exciting young team are from Edinburgh and the surrounds, with active youth schemes doing well also in Lanarkshire and Fife (traditional Celgers country). Derek Roirdan, Garry O'Connor, Kevin Thompson, Scott Brown, and a few others all have great potential.

Mattias Doumbe is our only young foriegn star. Signed by McLeish the Hun, he has developed into a very good centre half. Sadly Celtic have already been linked with him, continuing their 115 year History of 'stealing' our best players.

[Plastic Paddy]

Originally posted by Mukadua
Mattias Doumbe is our only young foriegn star. Signed by McLeish the Hun, he has developed into a very good centre half. Sadly Celtic have already been linked with him, continuing their 115 year History of 'stealing' our best players.

Not seen any links mentioned elsewhere other than by a few other 'Tic fans. Much as we'd like to see them spend proper money to reach a decent level in Europe, the board are refusing to open the biscuit tin and so the likes of Stephen Pearson are probably the current limit of ambition. :(

So that means we'll probably be coming after Doumbe soon enough. :p

:D PP

[nooshty]

Good on Rebel Bhoy for playing Devil's Advocate, refreshing to get some of that info on Swan out into the open.

Cheers

[SlovSam]

Originally posted by Guerzy
This is the most constructive debate i ve seen in ages. Well done to our Scottish friends. i 'm still a Celtic supporter but its nice to get some good background history. Gary and Colm dont get too excited and lets keep this constructive. Tell me , do Hibs have potential fan wise in Edinburgh to maybe move on another level financially speaking. And is the policy of signing unknown foreigners and turning them into decent players still active at the club.


Without getting into an argument with my fellow Hibs fan about dormant support (which I think is limited) and the competence of our manager (who I think is doing the best he can in the circumstances), I'd say the problem facing all Scottish clubs is that:

(1) Many Celtic and Rangers fans may well support there club for reasons of background and tradition but there is a great many who are also nothing more than gloryseekers and who are attracted by success and glamour.


This type of suppporter really has no interest in his local club, a problem I am sure that is identical in Ireland and I can't really see how this will change as Celtic/Rangers are massive institutions who just aren't going to go away, partly because at the moment no one else wants them.:)

(2) In recent years Aberdeen, Hearts, Motherwell, Dundee and Hibs have made some sort of effort to compete with Rangers and Celtic and all are now in very serious financial trouble.
This huge accumulated debt means that most of the Scottish clubs can only concentrate on survival never mind competing.

I don't blame Celtic/Rangers or there fans for this situation (though historically they haven't exactly helped);) but society in Scotland has historically developed to an extent that Celtic/Rangers are arguably the different side of the same coin and the rest of the clubs have absolutely nothing in common with them either financially or culturally.

My fellow Hibs fan is right about Doumbe, who is an excellent player but financially we are heading for a pre 1996 situation where all we will be able to afford is Scottish players only.:(

[greenteam]

Just learned more here than I have in 30 years of being a Hibs fan........great stuff.

[greenteam]

P.S We got beat 1-0 by Livi:mad:

[Mukadua]

Originally posted by greenteam
P.S We got beat 1-0 by Livi:mad:

We know

We were there

We were terrible:mad:

[greenteam]

Thought so. Listened to it on the radio (internet).
A sad sad year for us aint it.
BW was as confusing as ever with his subs IMHO.:(

[RebelBhoy]

Hibs proposed banning of the tricolour at Parkhead in 1952. Dissappointing from a club with such history.

[Rebel Bhoy]

Note that was a different Rebel Bhoy. Not the one that keeps getting things wrong!!
I have seen the same thing too RB2. Not sure why that was, but what I do know, is that R*****rs supported Celtic in defeating this motion. What was that all about lads?
I know that H***ts have tried to ban the tricolous and the butchers apron from swinecastle but to me, thats just crazy. Neither flag is banned from anywhere and neither flag represents a propensity towards acts of terror as some mistakenly believe.

[SlovSam]

Originally posted by RebelBhoy
Hibs proposed banning of the tricolour at Parkhead in 1952. Dissappointing from a club with such history.


Oh god there is more than one;)

What a load of drivel, didn't you even read the rest of the thread before you posted such complete nonsense.

Admitedly it was written in paragraphs, rather than one line simplistic sentences so I suppose not.:p

[Rebel Bhoy]

Some people eh?!

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by SlovSam
Oh god there is more than one;)

What a load of drivel, didn't you even read the rest of the thread before you posted such complete nonsense.

Admitedly it was written in paragraphs, rather than one line simplistic sentences so I suppose not.:p

I think he was reading the "Fly the Flag" article in this weeks Celtic View where Paul Cuddihy accuses Harry Swan of leading a "campaign against Celtic and the Irish".

[greenteam]

NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Dont turn it into a flag debate.............again.:D

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by gspain
You forgot one vital piece of information Canon Hanon was a Limerickman. :)

He was from Ballingarry Co Limerick. Here's a link to the Ballingarry AFC site.

ballingarryafc.homestead.com

The first members of Hibernian FC also had to be members of the Catholic Young Men's Society, which also founded by a Limerickman Dean O'Brien in 1849.

[harpo]

Did you know that Canon Hannan's uncle was the Right Rev Monsignor Richard B. O'Brien DD VG, Dean of Limerick who founded the CYMS in Ireland in 1849.

Not alot of people know that

[Paddy Ramone]

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

[Paddy Ramone]

Another interesting fact is that Hibernian FC were launched on the anniversary of the centenary of the birth of the Irish Nationalist leader Daniel O'Connell on the 6th August 1875.

[SlovSam]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
I think he was reading the "Fly the Flag" article in this weeks Celtic View where Paul Cuddihy accuses Harry Swan of leading a "campaign against Celtic and the Irish".

Yes, I heard about that but haven't yet managed to get a copy of it.

I'll reserve judgement until I see a copy, but I suspect it will be the same old heresay/rumour and bland assertions that have been repeated for years and years with no sources of reference or basis in fact:(

[RebelBhoy]

Ya sorry rebel bhoy 1, did'nt no that name was taken. Thats right I read it in the celtic view (gives a pretty watered down version of events imo, but i read as much as possible). It also said that Hibs removed the Harp from outside their ground an all. A good read.

[RebelBhoy]

after I just saying I try to read as much as possible I have to admit I did'nt read this thread before posting the message!!!

[SlovSam]

This is bizarre, I have no idea which one of you I am talking to::(


However, to whom it may concern ;)

Harry Swan took over Hibs in 1934 yet it wasn't until 1956, fully 22 years later that the old 'Harp' entrance was removed.
22 years is indeed a long time, to harbour some so called anti- Irish grievance ;)

The real reason for the removal of the Harp emblem was that the stadium and entrance was in a poor state of repair and building,construction costs and a stadium refurbishment programme was implemented to accomodate crowds which on many occasions now consisted of over 50,000 spectators. (Yes really;))

There wasn't a choice in the matter, the 'harp entrances' had to be demolished.
Instead, an expensive new mosaic Harp was commissioned from a craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it was hung in the boardroom.

When Harry Swan died in the early 1960's it was then gifted to his widow.

[Mukadua]

Originally posted by RebelBhoy
Hibs proposed banning of the tricolour at Parkhead in 1952. Dissappointing from a club with such history.

Can you clarify without quoting the words of club rag the Celtic 'Its ouropinionandwedon'tcareif tstrue' View?

More madey up pish. Some clues, what position did Mr Swan actually hold when the 'Tricolour banning' was happening? Who advocated the calming down of the intolerant misbehaviour of the 'Best Fans in the world' in 1951 prior to the flag debate being raised (scuse punnery), was the flag flown on the east or west stand/ terrace of Celtic Park, who owned Hibernian when Mr Swan joined the club, what actually happened to the Harp above the entrance, what colour do my club play in, what name do they have and have done so for 128 years, what goal netting was introduced on Mr Swans appointment, who played for Hibs during Mr Swan's tenureship that may just dispel the Imbittered Celtic myth of his 'anti - Irish or anti catholic' stance.

FFS, what colour was his effin toothbrush??

Realise......you are being lied to by your club, its historians and those pathetic journalistic wannabies at the Celtic Pish Paper.

Ye really couldnae make it up.:confused:

[Rebel Bhoy]

The same discussion is going on the e-Tims website (mentioning this thread) I apologised again for bringing it up. In response to the last comment, which I repeated on the other website too, my understanding of it was that the tricolour issue was not brought about by Swan, but by George Graham the then head of the SFA?

As for the view….I don’t buy it. I used to, but as you will know, does tend to report the truth as the board see it rather than as the fans see it

[SlovSam]

Some more background which I have also posted on my home site of the Hibees bounce

http://www.hibeesbounce.com/forum/showthread.php?p=98646#post98646


I actually don't have to much of a problem with this 'Celtic version' of history as written by Tom Campbell.

I would agree, that there was a huge over-reaction by the SFA to the Glasgow magistrates' four recommendations that:

(1) Rangers and Celtic should not play each other on New Years Day .
(2) All ticket games only.
(3) Numbered passgeways at Celtic Park
(4) That the two clubs should avoid displaying flags which might incite feeling among the spectators. ie specifically Celtic and there Irish flag.

Number (4) is obviously the point of contention.

Reading the article and you find that Mr Tom Campbell claims that:

(1)George Graham the secretary of the SFA led and orchestrated the campaign against Celtic and Harry Swan of Hibs was only a nominal participant. (not sure what nominal means)

(2) George Graham mislead the SFA council by turning down a meeting with the Scottish League and that Harry Swan was embarrassed at his superiors misleading behaviour. (Sounds fine to me)

(3) Harry Swan chaired a meeting that asked Celtic to comply with the 'flag recommendations'
(This actually was due to the supposed illness of George Graham and Harry Swan was duty bound to chair the meeting in his capacity of Acting President).


My problem is that, it is then a huge leap in logic and imagination to then assume that Harry Swan becomes demonised as being anti Irish, anti Celtic/ anti catholic/ anti colour of the grass ;)

Spin, Spin and more spin where is that Alistair Campbell when you most need him ;)

[Rebel Bhoy]

We usually say that it can't be paranoia if they really are out to get you, but in this instance I think it really is a bit of paranoia.

I think you are right to suggest that it was Graham who lost out as a result of the incident (leaving his post with the SFA shortly afterwards???).

Did Tom Campell not go on to say that iit was Swan who took the decision to give Celtic 3 days to comply with the order to remove the tricolour? also that he was backed into a position where he had to sell Graham down the river for approaching the Scottish league???

Were Hibs a victim of a siimilar sort of thing way way way back?

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy

Were Hibs a victim of a siimilar sort of thing way way way back?

Hibs after winning the second division in 1894 were prevented from promotion to the first division because they flew the Green Flag. Celtic were one of the clubs that voted against their promotion.

[Rebel Bhoy]

Thats a pretty loaded sentence. I'd very much doubt that Hibernian flying the Green flag was the reason Celtic voted against Hibs promotion.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy
Thats a pretty loaded sentence. I'd very much doubt that Hibernian flying the Green flag was the reason Celtic voted against Hibs promotion.

It wouldn't have been in Celtic's interest to have another club with Irish connections in the first division competing for the support of the Irish in Scotland.

[Rebel Bhoy]

aaah, your'e playing Dick Advocaat now (Devils Advocate). Thats a very speculative reasoning at best. I have looked around on google and not seen much about it but surely just as good a reason would be that the team who got promoted in Hibs place (Clyde) are closer to Glasgow?
In any case, were the gates shared back then, so a strong Hibs would have meant better gate receipts all round???