Hibernian FC and there place in Irish History

[nooshty]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
It wouldn't have been in Celtic's interest to have another club with Irish connections in the first division competing for the support of the Irish in Scotland.

That was the reason, thats also the reason Celtic bad-mouth Hibs and their history (ie make up stories and accusations) whenever possible.

I remember seeing an interview with Willie Maley written in the early 20's, he said that "without the grand old Hibernian their would be no Celtic" - a pity Celtic see fit to ignore those words these days, The Celtic View article is a disgrace.

[harpo]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Hibs after winning the second division in 1894 were prevented from promotion to the first division because they flew the Green Flag. Celtic were one of the clubs that voted against their promotion.




We never seem to hear this from our Celtic friends do we ;)

[SlovSam]

My take on the events of 1894 is that Hibs had only been reformed for one year when they won the second division championship and barring them from the first division was mostly discriminatory though maybe and its a big maybe:), perhaps the Scottish League were concerned Hibs would go out of business again and be unable to fulfill there fixtures.

It wouldn't really be in Celtic's interests to have Hibs in the same division, as at that time, a large number of Hibs fans still came from the West of Scotland, as they had supported Hibs years before Celtic existed.

Despite what Willie Maley said, I don't really buy into the 'without 'Hibs there wouldn't have been a Celtic argument'.
Throughout Britain and Europe in the 1880's, football was expanding at an exponential rate ,hence it's inconceivable that the huge Irish population of the West of Scotland wouldn't want a team to call their own.

Hibs certainly were the pioneers and broke down a lot of the sectarian barriers but Celtic were on the planning table from the minute the English Public Schools codified the rules of Association Football.

I've always wondered how they chose the name and was it ever pronounced Keltic;)

[harpo]

Originally posted by SlovSam
My take on the events of 1894 is that Hibs had only been reformed for one year when they won the second division championship and barring them from the first division was mostly discriminatory though maybe and its a big maybe:), perhaps the Scottish League were concerned Hibs would go out of business again and be unable to fulfill there fixtures.

It wouldn't really be in Celtic's interests to have Hibs in the same division, as at that time, a large number of Hibs fans still came from the West of Scotland, as they had supported Hibs years before Celtic existed.

Despite what Willie Maley said, I don't really buy into the 'without 'Hibs there wouldn't have been a Celtic argument'.
Throughout Britain and Europe in the 1880's, football was expanding at an exponential rate ,hence it's inconceivable that the huge Irish population of the West of Scotland wouldn't want a team to call their own.

Hibs certainly were the pioneers and broke down a lot of the sectarian barriers but Celtic were on the planning table from the minute the English Public Schools codified the rules of Association Football.

I've always wondered how they chose the name and was it ever pronounced Keltic;) ;)


I disagree Slov, if there was no Hibernian there defo would be no Glasgow Celtic, instead they would have taken the name Glasgow HIBERNIAN
;)

[SlovSam]

I think there actually was a Glasgow Hibernian, not really my area of expertise;) but I think what happened is that Brother Walfrid and the Church left Celtic as they didn't like the ethos of John Glass, the businessmen and a limited liability company.

They then decided to set up another club called Glasgow Hibernians which would be non profit making, possibly strictly religious and amateur.

They folded after a year or two which is just as well , imagine the confusion today Hibernian v Hibernian
;)

[harpo]

Slov have read the artical from the Celtic veiw yet?


It says the SFA Referee Committee 'seized' upon the recommendations of the Glasgow magistrate.

But what it doesn't say is that thier very own Bob Kelly was the Chairman of the Referee's Committee :rolleyes:

It also says that and I quote..... 'it was Swan, in becoming Chairman of Hibs, who had attempted to eradicate all Irish refrences and links to the Edinburgh club, this included removing of the Harp which adorned the main entrance to Easter Rd.'

What it doesn't say is that Swan had been Hibernian Chairman for 22 years before the Harp was knocked down due to essential maintainace at Easter Rd.

'Eradicate all Irish refrences' whats that all about? we still had our Irish colours, name and the Harp was hung in the boardroom!

What a load of rubbish, Celtic rubbish and this being from what is an official source connected to the club :(

[SlovSam]

Yes I read it thanks, what a load of baloney.

Harry Swan first involvement with Hibs was as a debenture holder for the old main stand in 1924 when the club was still a 'closed Irish shop'.
Hence even 30 years prior to the 'Harp removal'.

He was 'welcomed with open arms' by the old Irish families', maintained links with the old guard throughout his life, changed the nets to green',was great friends with the Monsignor as previously pointed out and recomissioned a 'Harp emblem' for the boardroom.

It really is the worst case of Celtic Paranoia:mad:

They feel rightly slighted as they were asked to take down there flag, Harry Swan was indeed a freemason, so then it snowballs into Harry Swan the anti irish bigot, who founded Protestant Action and who ruthlessly dissolved all remnants of Hibs Irish roots :mad:

A 'Celtic mind' is a very difficult one to get inside...not that I would want to;)

PS Is that you on the E-Tims web site defending our cause, if so direct that idiot who thinks that Harry Swan founded Protestant Action as well over here to be educated ;)

[Rebel Bhoy]

Like I say, I don’t put too much credence in the view. It tends to put out the official party line that not too many Tims adhere to. They are trying to make our club a green extension of the tartan army which, lets face it is not really possible when you are faced with trips to Swinecastle and Castle Greyshkull twice a season.

As for the pronunciation of (k)Celtic, I have heard a new story recently but as usual, I have forgotten it. I always thought that the pronunciation was down to the fact that the original minutes of the formation of the club were printed in the press so those that read it that were unfamiliar with the word pronounced it as it is today and as word spread it just stuck like that.

Seeing as I got the whole thing wrong in the first place, does anyone know anything about Dundee Hibernian?? I know that Dundee Utd’s away kit the year before last was green in honour of their former name. I was always of the impression that there were many clubs throughout Scotland with an Irish reference in their title, but due to the anti-Irish feeling in Scotland the SFA basically ran them out of business, or forced them to change their names (much like our PLC are doing with our supporters clubs). That was my impression but I have known to be wrong before…but surely not twice!

[SlovSam]

I'm not quite sure when Dundee Hibernian were formed but I do know it was based on the Hibs model and that Hibs went to play them in a friendly, helped with strips, organisation and the like just as they had done with Celtic.

Aren't we such a nice philanthropic lot .;)


I'm afraid I've never seen any evidence that the SFA tried to make any club change it's name, Hibernian means 'Irishmen' or men of 'Ireland' and to my knowledge the SFA never tried to force Hibs to change there name.

Scottish society was pretty sectarian and bigoted in these days(arguably up to WW11 and well into 50's) but all the clubs named Hibernian or Harp just seem to assimilate into society.
I've not seen any claims that the SFA or the Scottish Leauge exerted any pressure.
Possibly this happenned at local, amateur and junior level though.

I've read 'Across the great divide' which charts the history of Dundee and Dundee United and nowhere does it claim the SFA or anyone else asked them to change the name to 'Dundee United' from 'Dundee Hibernians'
The club changed the name of it's own accord I think in the 1930's, as they wanted to broaden there appeal as they were a second division club who played to a few hundred people each week. (a bit like now;))

Tell you what, you keep 'providing the myths' and we will keep on unpicking them;)

What is happening with the names of Celtic supporters club?
I've always thought they were very interesting eg John F Kennedy, James Stokes (Victoria Cross medal winner) etc etc.
Are the PLC witholding tickets if they don't approve?

[Rebel Bhoy]

Sure thing. Myth No 1: Commentators have the correct pronunciation when they refer to Hibernians' Derek REEOR-DAN!!

I've just been looking on the E-Tims website and the thread has kinda degenerated a bit into name calling and "we're better than you because ...." I was a bit disturbed by the claims that Celtic are a Unionist club by seeking a move to the EPL. THats not really fair, Capitalist maybe, but Unionist....not really. I am not sure what worries me more!!! It got me thinking that its a bit sillly really as we are both denying each other a shared history that other clubs can only aspire to. Clubs founded with ideals that maybe we both have moved away from.
Hibs have an Irish name, badge and motto and are the first to wear the Green and were the favoured club of James Connolly and were founded as a direct result of racism in Edinburgh and have managed to sucessfully integrate in Scottish society. NET RESULT: A SCOTTISH FOOTBALL CLUB PROUD OF ITS IRISH HERITAGE.
Celtic, a club founded on the Hibs model as a charitable, non-sectarian football club, the favoured club of Michael Davitt who fly the tricolour as donated by the Irish Government. NET RESULT: A SCOTTISH FOOTBALL CLUB PROUD OF ITS IRISH ROOTS.

I don't know what got into me in the first place to make a row out of it?! I'm pretty sure that both of us have larger obstacles to face than each other like the continued racism and sectarianism that we both encounter.

I looked on the Dundee Utd Website and they stated that the change in name was "In order to attract wider appeal, the club decided to drop the reference to Hibernian from their title". I would read a lot into that statement about anti Irish attitudes in Scotland and how compromising ones history can completely change the direction of an organisation.

[Rebel Bhoy]

Large posts are too hard to read. I'll write less in future.

[nooshty]

When Dundee Hibernian were promoted to the Scottish League it was Hibernian who asked that they change the name , to avoid confusion. They then became Dundee Utd.

Dundee Hibernian were formed by a Hibs fan Paddy Reilly, who had a Bicycle shop on Leith Walk and one in Dundee. When the shop in Dundee became really popular he missed his Saturday afternoons watching the Hibs so instituted the Dundee version. Hibs played them in their first game, the winning team (Edinburgh Hibernian) being presented with a green bike as a prize.:p

The Harry Swan debate continues elsewhere -

http://www.etims.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6752

This is particularly entertaining with McGoldenbhoy contributions being the pick of the bunch. The fact that everything in life for him has to boil down to sectarianism says more about himself than any Hibs Chairman.

[SlovSam]

Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy
Sure thing. Myth No 1: Commentators have the correct pronunciation when they refer to Hibernians' Derek REEOR-DAN!!

I've just been looking on the E-Tims website and the thread has kinda degenerated a bit into name calling and "we're better than you because ...." I was a bit disturbed by the claims that Celtic are a Unionist club by seeking a move to the EPL. THats not really fair, Capitalist maybe, but Unionist....not really. I am not sure what worries me more!!! It got me thinking that its a bit sillly really as we are both denying each other a shared history that other clubs can only aspire to. Clubs founded with ideals that maybe we both have moved away from.
Hibs have an Irish name, badge and motto and are the first to wear the Green and were the favoured club of James Connolly and were founded as a direct result of racism in Edinburgh and have managed to sucessfully integrate in Scottish society. NET RESULT: A SCOTTISH FOOTBALL CLUB PROUD OF ITS IRISH HERITAGE.
Celtic, a club founded on the Hibs model as a charitable, non-sectarian football club, the favoured club of Michael Davitt who fly the tricolour as donated by the Irish Government. NET RESULT: A SCOTTISH FOOTBALL CLUB PROUD OF ITS IRISH ROOTS.

I don't know what got into me in the first place to make a row out of it?! I'm pretty sure that both of us have larger obstacles to face than each other like the continued racism and sectarianism that we both encounter.

I looked on the Dundee Utd Website and they stated that the change in name was "In order to attract wider appeal, the club decided to drop the reference to Hibernian from their title". I would read a lot into that statement about anti Irish attitudes in Scotland and how compromising ones history can completely change the direction of an organisation.


I think rows are just 'great fun', just ask my 'friends' on 'Hibees Bounce';). They focus the mind somewhat.

I'd pretty much agree with your summary, though Hibs weren't founded due to sectarianism or bigotry in Edinburgh, it was just a bunch of young guys who wanted to play football and represent there community so they kicked a ball about on 'The Meadows' and a football club then developed. It really was that simple.

Even today you see group's of Asians, African's, Eastern Europeans kicking a ball about on 'The Meadows' on a Sunday morning.
It's the exact equivalent of the Irish immigrants' who lived in Edinburgh 125 years ago.

[nooshty]

Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy
I don't know what got into me in the first place to make a row out of it?! I'm pretty sure that both of us have larger obstacles to face than each other like the continued racism and sectarianism that we both encounter.

I agree with all that RB. Maybe as a Celtic fan you could take it up with the editor of the Celtic View who has saw fit to repeat the "Myth" about Swan yet again.

Hibs fans in general love Hibs rather than hate any other team - it's only when unrepresentative lies like this get spread that they get angry, quite rightly.

[Jim Smith]

Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy
I looked on the Dundee Utd Website and they stated that the change in name was "In order to attract wider appeal, the club decided to drop the reference to Hibernian from their title". I would read a lot into that statement about anti Irish attitudes in Scotland and how compromising ones history can completely change the direction of an organisation.

Let me ask you a question. If you lived in a city with two clubs, one proud of its Scottish heritage in a non-sectarian way and the other proud of its Irish heritage in a non-sectarian way, which one would you support? I'll take the liberty of assumming you'd follow the club with the Irish heritage. Does that make you anti-Scottish and a bigot?

I'm not for a minute denying that sectarianism and bigotry exist in Scotland (although from what the Hibs fans are saying it's not as strong in Edinburgh as elsewhere) but look how easily these myths about Hibs have been created and perpetuated. Could it be that not all 'non-Celtic' people spend every waking hour plotting against you and some people follow their local team because its their local team and not because they are 'bigots without the bus fare'?

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy

I looked on the Dundee Utd Website and they stated that the change in name was "In order to attract wider appeal, the club decided to drop the reference to Hibernian from their title". I would read a lot into that statement about anti Irish attitudes in Scotland and how compromising ones history can completely change the direction of an organisation.

Dundee Utd's name change in 1923 may have to do with anti-Irish prejudice following the Irish War of Independence. But I may be wrong.

[Rebel Bhoy]

I probably would write to the Record, but I just don't buy it any more. I used to a couple of years back but it seems that its primary concern is not the fans issues (like safe passage to and from the Parkhead area) but promoting the Celtic brand lifestyle. Not to say that everything I own doesn't have celtic written on it somewhere.

I love a row too, but its a real pain in the arse when you get blown out of the water so quickly!!

Jim Smith, it is possible that these people are not 'bigots' but it is also possible, and some may say more likely, that attracting a support from outwith the community from which you were founded is possible without trampling all over your history...as shown with Hibernian in Edinburgh I guess. Arsenal didn't change their name when they ceased to be the Woolwich Arsenal did they? Should Wimbledon change their name “In order to attract wider appeal”??? Of course not.

It would be mere speculation to suggest what was or wasn’t going on in the minds of the Dundee Hibernian board when they took the decision to drop any association with Ireland, but more often than not, the most likely theory is the right one. With regards the prevalence of sectarianism in Scotland, the only times I have ever experienced sectarianism and racism in Scotland have been in Edinburgh…..although this is easily explained by the fact that when in Glasgow I am always amongst my own kind.

[Jam]

stuff
Much more sectarianism in Glasgow than anywhere else than Scotland amongst a huge number of the gruesome north-Brit twosome one set of whom are plastic paddies who indulge in football shirted political fantasies about not their own country - no they are British unionists in that one - but about a foreign country the political affairs of Ireland/Northern Ireland. The other lot are Brit bovver boys who hate fen*ans, Irish, homosexuals, Scottish independence, europeans blah blah zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Arguably even worse than the former but not by a great deal in my experience.

And year after year it goes on from both sides with reasonable Scots looking on with embarrassment about the lack of Scottish identity of our two major sporting representatives.

"But Celtic are Irish", I hear you cry due to Irish immigrants setting them up. When was that? 120 years ago! Exactly.

[Jam]

stuff
Much more sectarianism in Glasgow than anywhere else than Scotland amongst a huge number of the gruesome north-Brit twosome one set of whom are plastic paddies who indulge in football shirted political fantasies about not their own country - no they are British unionists in that one - but about a foreign country the political affairs of Ireland/Northern Ireland. The other lot are Brit bovver boys who hate fen*ans, Irish, homosexuals, Scottish independence, europeans blah blah zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Arguably even worse than the former but not by a great deal in my experience.

And year after year it goes on from both sides with reasonable Scots looking on with embarrassment about the lack of Scottish identity of our two major sporting representatives.

"But Celtic are Irish", I hear you cry due to Irish immigrants setting them up. When was that? 120 years ago! Exactly.

[SlovSam]

That's a great line which I must paraphrase and use in future debates:

'Celtic fans are mostly British unionists in there own country but then become mostly Irish nationalists when discussing the affairs of a foreign country.'

Like it:D

The mind of a Celtic fan is indeed a strange one and this is with all respect to Rebel Bhoy who has been a great guy.:)

[adamcarr]

i swapped a fella for a hibs jersey a few days back and hibs were always my 2nd fav team behind celtic

[Rebel Bhoy]

I figure some of you guys have e-mail updates when a thread is updated, so instead of starting a new thread, I’ll offer my congratulations for a job well done last night. As much as I wanted Celtic to win every single game and every competition, it is great to have a final without either of the old firm about. It’s the first for a while.
As for that lot from the kingdom of darkness, I have genuine fears about their future. Perhaps it is just dawning on me now, but we need them to get out of this mess (football and financial) fairly fast because it won’t do us any favours.

[nooshty]

Cheers, RB. :)

With a team of wee laddies as well. :p

Always good to shove it up the Stickies.

We're in the final!!!

[SlovSam]

Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy
I figure some of you guys have e-mail updates when a thread is updated, so instead of starting a new thread, I’ll offer my congratulations for a job well done last night. As much as I wanted Celtic to win every single game and every competition, it is great to have a final without either of the old firm about. It’s the first for a while.
As for that lot from the kingdom of darkness, I have genuine fears about their future. Perhaps it is just dawning on me now, but we need them to get out of this mess (football and financial) fairly fast because it won’t do us any favours.

Cheers for that, when you are a Hibs fan you learn to live with all the disapointments and savour the fleeting moments of glory.
Last night was one of the latter :D

Thanks again for the congratulations.